Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Mario's uthrow is used at lower percents against fastfalling characters as a combo starter instead of dthrow I believe.

This is correct. If fast-fallers are at 0 to 9%, it's better to use U-throw as using D-throw will allow them to shield (and you can't regrab due to system mechanics).

Mario's U-Throw can combo into U-air, or it can combo into D-air > Any aerial (dependent on DI), which also includes F-air.

If the opponents are 10% or higher though, it's better to just use D-throw.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

can u give me some number has to how blaster is so terrible? i use it all the time still his most usefull move.
along with the fact that i just dont argee with falco being bottom 5 lol so perhaps im just going defence mode.

I don't have numbers for the move on hand, but Falco's blaster is really laggy, generally punishable on block unless done from really far away but the projectile has significant range limitations before the laser just vanishes. It does incredibly little damage and knockback, one of the least rewarding projectiles to hit with in the game, and you can't put them out at a very high rate at all. It's still not quite completely worthless I suppose since at those certain mid ranges there's little reason not to shoot it and it's still pretty good at stealing double jumps, but it really is an extremely marginal projectile which is such a shame since it was such an excellent move in both Melee and Brawl. I kinda look at Falco as a shame in general; he would be so easy to make into a really good character, but it's hard for me to see him as outside of the bottom group with the way he is now (my bottom tier is bottom 6, not bottom 5, for whatever that's worth).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

-snip-

I agree, Falco could've been a lot better. Not sure if he's at the bottom, but let's face it: he isn't the Falco he used to be. However, I found out that his Lasers can actually jab lock opponents who miss a tech. Unfortunately, this game works against him in so many ways, including the 3 hit limit on jab-locking. It's really unfortunate that its pretty much impossible to follow up if you ever do manage to laser lock your opponent. It's a shame, but oh well.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't have numbers for the move on hand, but Falco's blaster is really laggy, generally punishable on block unless done from really far away but the projectile has significant range limitations before the laser just vanishes. It does incredibly little damage and knockback, one of the least rewarding projectiles to hit with in the game, and you can't put them out at a very high rate at all. It's still not quite completely worthless I suppose since at those certain mid ranges there's little reason not to shoot it and it's still pretty good at stealing double jumps, but it really is an extremely marginal projectile which is such a shame since it was such an excellent move in both Melee and Brawl. I kinda look at Falco as a shame in general; he would be so easy to make into a really good character, but it's hard for me to see him as outside of the bottom group with the way he is now (my bottom tier is bottom 6, not bottom 5, for whatever that's worth).

from what i know foxes lazer is even more laggy than falco. i dont have number just animation reference seeing how slow fox puts away his blaster compared to falco.
icould very well be wrong though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Both blasters are extremely laggy, but at least Fox's have rapid fire and can reliably tack on extra percentage. Falco's blaster doesn't do much of anything.

 

[Locke 06]

I blame it on muscle memory like when I use Mega Man, I forget that his Nair isn't like everyone else's regular attack.

You don't even know. Before I had a secondary, everyone felt weird to me. I played Mega Man only once 3DS came out and up until Wii U, I had barely touched the rest of the cast because they felt awkward. They had jabs... and they were different from their ftilts... and their usmash was stronger than their utilt...

Oh fun. I get to talk more Pacman. Essentially, @BSP, it seems like you expect your opponent to wait while you setup... which doesn't happen. It's like waiting on Snake to set up C4/mines in Brawl. Makes no sense.

Point by point, here we go.

The thing is the opponent is putting themselves at risk while they're navigating through all of this stuff. Pac-Man should be watching and waiting to punish the opponent for navigating through his stuff (or not if he prefers to charge something I guess, depends on the situation). Getting past trampoline means you are going airborne in some way or another. Same for the hydrant unless you are Sonic, who I have found can run right past it for some reason. Pac-Man will always have a shot to punish you for crossing it. He awaits your landing, aerials you, throws something, anything really.

As for the no flow, I think it depends on Pac-Man's setup and what he is doing while the opponent is trying to maneuver through all of his stuff.

You're right about him having to recharge to his BF, but the other two specials provide him time to do so, while at the same time giving him chances to punish you for getting around them when you're trying to chase him down.

If the hydrant is launched or just jumped over, you can't set down another one until it disappears. If your opponent is at mid-range, setting down a hydrant will leave you open to be punished. It's equivalent to throwing out a whiffed utilt, so it's not terrible, but it will immediately put you on the defensive. If you're standing on it and your opponent can launch the hydrant quickly, it's unblockable since you're standing and can't dodge in time. Trampoline I'll get to later.

The no flow is not dependent on what he is doing while the opponent is trying to maneuver. The flow is that even if you hit someone with a hydrant, you still have to wait to setup again and by that time your opponent has reset. This is unlike Duck Hunt's can, which can be used right after it explodes, and can be setup with a pigeon or gunman at the same time to cover throwing out another can. You can even make the can explode/fall off the stage so you can use it again once your opponent has gotten past it. Same with Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa.

They have yet to launch it on me.
OK, but if you both wait, Pac-Man gets to charge to what he wants. I don't think that's something most characters want to let him do.

Fox can't launch it with lasers (95% sure. Just tested it) but Sheik definitely can with needles. As can Mega Man with pellets. The reason why they have yet to launch it on you is because it requires the hydrant HP to be low enough. They're not going to "wait," they're just going to start attacking you. If you're hiding right behind the hydrant, well, okay. Maybe they'll have to wait. However, it's still neutral. You have to jump over it to cross or deal with the water blasts just like your opponent. Otherwise, you've given up stage control. If you're charging bonus fruit, how are you doing that without giving up stage control or control of the hydrant? On the ground, you'll be pushed back to the ledge and now the hydrant firmly is in the control of your opponent. If you're charging bonus fruit in the air, you're nowhere close to being able to hit the hydrant in addition to being in no position to punish crossing over the hydrant, so you lose possession of the hydrant.

Pac-Man's Key launches it fresh. If she smashes it, Pac-Man most definitely has a chance to grab her, or throw something right after she hits it. I see your point though. Smart people won't give Pac-Man smash lag to punish. The longer you wait though, the more time he has to charge or set up another trampoline.
As for stronger characters using it better, how so? We both agree that once you know how hydrant is going to fly for various moves, you shouldn't be getting hit by it often. If Pac-Man is fighting someone who can launch it quickly, he needs to keep that in mind and not place it in situations where it'll get launched and hit him before he can react. Otherwise, it still does its job.

The hydrant's water blasts can also save someone from eating a punish after hitting it. Since they'll drift backwards after launching, you're in no position to attack and you still have to deal with this hydrant coming at you. Something I learned while doing a bit of homework on the character to respond.

Stronger characters can use it better because they can launch the attack with a safer move than you can. Ganondorf can probably launch it with ftilt which is by no means as laggy as your fsmash. You may not be getting hit by your own hydrant, but you still have to deal with it. If it's flying straight at you because the opponent knows the angle his hit will launch it at (and you're in its trajectory) you have to deal with it. Launched hydrants aren't Din's Fire. They're still large projectiles. If you're keeping it in situations where it won't get launched by your opponent, what good is it doing? What's its job? Shoot water while you charge bonus fruit? That's not the utility I think you are trying to get at when thinking of "stage control."

You're correct about Pac-Man having to worry about his own trampoline, but I still think it messes up the opponent more than it hurts him. It nullifies any grounded approach they could try to make, and gives Pac-Man the assurance that the opponent will have to jump to get to him.

The same is even more true for your opponents and your opponents have a better grab than you. You may be able to charge bonus fruit on the other side, but while you're doing that you lose your utilt option which is a good anti-air and the opponent can bait punishes and eliminate any end lag by jumping on your trampoline, something you can't do. If you're not next to the trampoline waiting to punish an aerial approach, then the trampoline doesn't do anything for you much like the hydrant if you're far away. Once the trampoline goes away... then what? Put up another one and retreat?

I usually don't get punished hard for my trampolines. I intend to use it right on top of people so I know they get hit, or when they're far enough away so that I know I won't get punished. That first bounce really doesn't go that high, and since you can't just run to get Pac-Man after he does it, he can usually shield in time to get away with it.

Against little Mac, if you set trampolines in center stage, yes, he'll side B right over it and sock Pac Man for 14%. That's why you place them a little bit away from the ledge, because then Mac has to start his side B from farther away or else he dies. If he starts it from farther away, that's more time for Pac-Man to get his shield up and respond.

So, use trampolines aggressively. I can get on board with that. You know what that's not doing? Controlling the stage and setting up traps. If you hit with up-B, then you've set up the trampoline. I'm all for that. However, if you're throwing up a trampoline in neutral... that makes no sense. And your anti-little mac strategy is to put them closer to the edge... also known as giving up position. So you've given up stage control and he waits it out, now he has the entire stage at his back and you don't have anywhere to go.

Pac-Man's camping game isn't going to keep the opponent out forever, no, but you've got to consider what Pac-Man is doing while the opponent is trying to weave their way in. He makes the most of it by punishing their attempts to get around it. I still don't see anyone except maybe Sonic having an easy time pinning him down for good though.

The game is still early, and the only big name that has used Pac-Man is abadango. He got 9th I believe at Umebura 11. He did not go solo Pac-Man, but I believe he beat both Nietono and Brood with him. Not sure who else. No one in the U.S. has really touched him.

I've considered what Pac is doing while the opponent is trying to weave their way in. But how are you setting up these traps in the first place? You're not setting up a trampoline for free, and setting down a hydrant doesn't give you much more of an advantage than it does your opponent. If you're charging BF, you're not close to the hydrant or in a position to punish any approach.

I don't see it. As for the holes, again, I admit that you should get past Pac-Man's stuff at some point. I don't see anyone except Sonic possibly catching Pac-Man easily and/or safely when he reacts to you trying to get in though.

Pages back I talked about some of the hydrant traps. Like bouncing a hydrant off the edge. You should be able to get through all traps sometimes (traps give you a favorable situation where you have a good chance of landing a hit), but if there's one option that consistently beats your trap, that trap isn't worth anything. It's like placing a cage over a mouse only for it to have an escape hole.

You might be right on PP being 12 frames, but is that for the pellet itself? That's all that needs to get out for the projectile tanking function. 12f seems awfully slow.

I'm going off of the frame data in the academy. Projectile created on frame 12. I wouldn't make up numbers without a disclaimer of it being off my memory unless it's something I know well like MM utilt f6 or dtilt f5 or DK/MM BAir f4. 12 frames isn't awful (I think MM's skull barrier reflector is 11 or so) but it's not great.

We might just disagree on the stage control. Trampoline on the ground limit ground games quite a bit, hydrant too potentially.

Trampoline definitely limits ground games. Hydrant creates a neutral situation. Your argument hinges on one thing, giving you time to charge bonus fruit. If I'm anyone who has a charge attack (brawler, gunner, samus, robin, DK, Lucario, and Shulk to a degree with his arts) I'll gladly charge mine while you charge yours. Because...

Bonus fruit isn't even that good. -gasp-

It's not spammable, so it can't exert much pressure, and the reward on hit isn't high enough to base your entire game on charging it up unlike Samus' Charge Shot. Especially when you have characters with reflectors. Of the charge attacks, I don't find Bonus Fruit to be as intimidating as any of the other charge attacks.

The important thing here is that none of these options actually help you control/dominate positional play, also known as stage control. At best, they set neutral situations where you can charge your bonus fruit and then attack or keep retreating to stall. Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are far better stage control characters than Pacman. I really appreciate the discussion, but I still don't think his stage control is even remotely good.

I agree, Falco could've been a lot better. Not sure if he's at the bottom, but let's face it: he isn't the Falco he used to be. However, I found out that his Lasers can actually jab lock opponents who miss a tech. Unfortunately, this game works against him in so many ways, including the 3 hit limit on jab-locking. It's really unfortunate that its pretty much impossible to follow up if you ever do manage to laser lock your opponent. It's a shame, but oh well.

Yet one more thing Mega Man does what Falco wishes he could do. Lemon lock > utilt/dsmash is a thing and it's beautiful.

 

[Ffamran]

from what i know foxes lazer is even more laggy than falco. i dont have number just animation reference seeing how slow fox puts away his blaster compared to falco.
icould very well be wrong though.

Fox rolls his Blaster back like RoboCop while Falco does this weird raise his Blaster in the air like he don't care before slamming that sucker in his holster.

The other issue is recoil. Fox's Blaster recoil is small and short meaning that once he fires, the recoil settles, then he only has to deal with holstering it. Falco's Blaster recoil is like a freaking Desert Eagle if Desert Eagles shot sponges... So, fire, hard recoil, and holster makes it slower. If anyone's firing a Desert Eagle it's Wolf with his janky, criminal-looking Blaster with a bayonet.

Also, 'cause of video game logic, Falco's Blaster recoil is sideways. No firearm in existence has recoil that moves the freaking gun from left to right. Falco's holding his Blaster sideways like a gangster. Instead of flipping up, it should recoil horizontally. If he was using a Mauser C96 "Broomhandle", then that grip would be all right since he could sweep an area, but. Here's the big but! It's a 2.5D game meaning attacks like that are almost useless.

Yet one more thing Mega Man does what Falco wishes he could do. Lemon lock > utilt/dsmash is a thing and it's beautiful.

Yeah, but Mega Man's been doing that since 1987; Falco's just a wannabe.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

OK Pac-Man talk.

My two pennies:

Pac-Man isn't about pure stage control, like Villager and Duck Hunt, but about versality.
The flaws in this whole argument is that we expect Pac-Man to do the same thing every time.

But that's not the case.

For example, Pac-Man doesn't want to set down a Hydrant against Mega Man, since his Mega Upper can easily launch it.
Pac-Man wants to keep him at bay with Melons and walk after them, then punish with Jab or so.
Or throw Apples from above, where Lemons don't hit.

And if the Hydrant and the Trampoline are too laggy for your taste, keep opponents at bay with Strawberry (because not every fruit takes ages to charge y'know?) and other fruits.

Another flaw is that we expect Hydrant to help his camp ability only, but it can also help his CQC, by Fairing the opponent while riding the water blast, or by setting it down point blank to dodge projectiles and hit opponents from above.

Fruits also do more than just keeping away, it can help approaches too, like Mario's Fireball has multiple uses too.
And it can be used to knock opponents in nasty situation, and then you can punish after, instead of doing what everybody thinks: throwing more fruit.

We also assume Pac-Man is useless in CQC, but his Nair (an extremely quick movecwith good knockback) Fair (To knock opponents forward slightly), Uair (Boots have range) and Bair (Hydrant Utility and Ranged Knockback) are all great aerials.

And Jab (Get off me move) DTilt (deceivingly good range) and UTilt (Anti-Air) are great moves for on the ground.

Of course, the Keep Away game is what works against most of the characters, but Pac-Man's moveset is more of a tool kit where you have to be creative instead of a manual you should always follow.

Tl;dr
Pac-Man is more than a camp character and that is where he shines.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Fox rolls his Blaster back like RoboCop while Falco does this weird raise his Blaster in the air like he don't care before slamming that sucker in his holster.

The other issue is recoil. Fox's Blaster recoil is small and short meaning that once he fires, the recoil settles, then he only has to deal with holstering it. Falco's Blaster recoil is like a freaking Desert Eagle if Desert Eagles shot sponges... So, fire, hard recoil, and holster makes it slower. If anyone's firing a Desert Eagle it's Wolf with his janky, criminal-looking Blaster with a bayonet.

Also, 'cause of video game logic, Falco's Blaster recoil is sideways. No firearm in existence has recoil that moves the freaking gun from left to right. Falco's holding his Blaster sideways like a gangster. Instead of flipping up, it should recoil horizontally. If he was using a Mauser C96 "Broomhandle", then that grip would be all right since he could sweep an area, but. Here's the big but! It's a 2.5D game meaning attacks like that are almost useless.


Yeah, but Mega Man's been doing that since 1987; Falco's just a wannabe.

u know...alot about guns.
but atleast falcos blaster can still stuff aproaches. and i always finish my air combos with a styleing blaster shot. (u know after u knock em away in the air certain combos can allow for a shot of damage.
dunno overall i just dont see it as abad move its just not his bread and butter anymore.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm thinking people are over rating pacman. I'm not really sure also I don't think there's any true zoning characters they all seem to be more hybrid. I believe that was intentionally also why else would they take away Falcos laser game.

 

[TriTails]

Hydrants are overrated. Luigi's B-air knocks it away in a single hit before Pac Man can even press the left/right + A button at the same time.

Er.... ignore this post if you want. I have no idea why I post this.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm thinking people are over rating pacman. I'm not really sure also I don't think there's any true zoning characters they all seem to be more hybrid. I believe that was intentionally also why else would they take away Falcos laser game.

I think Duck Hunt is the closest this game comes to having a true zoning character

 

[outfoxd]

I think Duck Hunt is the closest this game comes to having a true zoning character

Even then DHD seems to be rewarded by using his zoning in tandem with infighting. At least I haven't gotten hella mileage from camping more than a round of projectiles.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

 

[Antonykun]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

Are you going to explain? I'm legitimately curious what you mean as I rarely play marth.

 

[TriTails]

From what I know, Marth only has tippers and great edgeguarding skills going for him. Yeah, he gains double merits each time he spaces well, but still, even with tippers I don't find him quite threatening.

 

[Luco]

I feel so bad for the hero king, I want him to be good but he has his issues. We'll see how he goes as time goes on. My mental tier list has changed a lot since I first posted it here a while back.

 

[Z'zgashi]

And then theres Lucina.

Lmao.

 

[Luco]

And then theres Lucina.

Lmao.

If she's going to sit there, put a mask on and proclaim she's Marth, then by all means let them drown together!

... I hope they become good some day :/

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ah, marth. I've played some pretty scary marth mains, and let me tell you his tippers are incredible. And combined with his amazing edge guarding game, Marth is a force to be reckoned with. However, with the lack of a projectile, bad landing lag, and a progressively shrinking sword with each new game, Marth is one of those higher potential characters that can be really good with practice.

Btw, does anyone else remember back when Lucina was the one everyone used? XD

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

For real tho, what even happened to that guy? Ever since his inception he was a dominant top tier now he's like... The most mediocre of all the characters. not the worst, but he just feels extraordinarily... ordinary

 

[HeroMystic]

Wasn't it proven that Marth's sword did not shrink this time?

 

[warionumbah2]

And then theres Lucina.

Lmao.

What you did there I c eht.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello Pacman mains,

You guys mention that if Pacman had a normal grab, he will move higher in the tier list? Are Pacman's throws/setup amazing? What options do you have out of your throws? Sorry, I'm just curious.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pac-Man would be top 5 if he had a normal grab like Mario's.

I feel like the developers looked at Pac-Man, saw his item game (mentioned before, Z-dropping is very powerful), got scared and gave him the worst tether grab and called that balancing him.

 

[RWB]

Wasn't it proven that Marth's sword did not shrink this time?

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

Marth's range is actually slightly bigger this time overall. F-tilt took a range nerf, and F-smash ate a big one, tohugh.

 

[Nu~]

You don't even know. Before I had a secondary, everyone felt weird to me. I played Mega Man only once 3DS came out and up until Wii U, I had barely touched the rest of the cast because they felt awkward. They had jabs... and they were different from their ftilts... and their usmash was stronger than their utilt...

Oh fun. I get to talk more Pacman. Essentially, @BSP, it seems like you expect your opponent to wait while you setup... which doesn't happen. It's like waiting on Snake to set up C4/mines in Brawl. Makes no sense.

Point by point, here we go.

If the hydrant is launched or just jumped over, you can't set down another one until it disappears. If your opponent is at mid-range, setting down a hydrant will leave you open to be punished. It's equivalent to throwing out a whiffed utilt, so it's not terrible, but it will immediately put you on the defensive. If you're standing on it and your opponent can launch the hydrant quickly, it's unblockable since you're standing and can't dodge in time. Trampoline I'll get to later.

The no flow is not dependent on what he is doing while the opponent is trying to maneuver. The flow is that even if you hit someone with a hydrant, you still have to wait to setup again and by that time your opponent has reset. This is unlike Duck Hunt's can, which can be used right after it explodes, and can be setup with a pigeon or gunman at the same time to cover throwing out another can. You can even make the can explode/fall off the stage so you can use it again once your opponent has gotten past it. Same with Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa.

Fox can't launch it with lasers (95% sure. Just tested it) but Sheik definitely can with needles. As can Mega Man with pellets. The reason why they have yet to launch it on you is because it requires the hydrant HP to be low enough. They're not going to "wait," they're just going to start attacking you. If you're hiding right behind the hydrant, well, okay. Maybe they'll have to wait. However, it's still neutral. You have to jump over it to cross or deal with the water blasts just like your opponent. Otherwise, you've given up stage control. If you're charging bonus fruit, how are you doing that without giving up stage control or control of the hydrant? On the ground, you'll be pushed back to the ledge and now the hydrant firmly is in the control of your opponent. If you're charging bonus fruit in the air, you're nowhere close to being able to hit the hydrant in addition to being in no position to punish crossing over the hydrant, so you lose possession of the hydrant.
The hydrant's water blasts can also save someone from eating a punish after hitting it. Since they'll drift backwards after launching, you're in no position to attack and you still have to deal with this hydrant coming at you. Something I learned while doing a bit of homework on the character to respond.

Stronger characters can use it better because they can launch the attack with a safer move than you can. Ganondorf can probably launch it with ftilt which is by no means as laggy as your fsmash. You may not be getting hit by your own hydrant, but you still have to deal with it. If it's flying straight at you because the opponent knows the angle his hit will launch it at (and you're in its trajectory) you have to deal with it. Launched hydrants aren't Din's Fire. They're still large projectiles. If you're keeping it in situations where it won't get launched by your opponent, what good is it doing? What's its job? Shoot water while you charge bonus fruit? That's not the utility I think you are trying to get at when thinking of "stage control."
The same is even more true for your opponents and your opponents have a better grab than you. You may be able to charge bonus fruit on the other side, but while you're doing that you lose your utilt option which is a good anti-air and the opponent can bait punishes and eliminate any end lag by jumping on your trampoline, something you can't do. If you're not next to the trampoline waiting to punish an aerial approach, then the trampoline doesn't do anything for you much like the hydrant if you're far away. Once the trampoline goes away... then what? Put up another one and retreat?
So, use trampolines aggressively. I can get on board with that. You know what that's not doing? Controlling the stage and setting up traps. If you hit with up-B, then you've set up the trampoline. I'm all for that. However, if you're throwing up a trampoline in neutral... that makes no sense. And your anti-little mac strategy is to put them closer to the edge... also known as giving up position. So you've given up stage control and he waits it out, now he has the entire stage at his back and you don't have anywhere to go.

I've considered what Pac is doing while the opponent is trying to weave their way in. But how are you setting up these traps in the first place? You're not setting up a trampoline for free, and setting down a hydrant doesn't give you much more of an advantage than it does your opponent. If you're charging BF, you're not close to the hydrant or in a position to punish any approach.
Pages back I talked about some of the hydrant traps. Like bouncing a hydrant off the edge. You should be able to get through all traps sometimes (traps give you a favorable situation where you have a good chance of landing a hit), but if there's one option that consistently beats your trap, that trap isn't worth anything. It's like placing a cage over a mouse only for it to have an escape hole.
I'm going off of the frame data in the academy. Projectile created on frame 12. I wouldn't make up numbers without a disclaimer of it being off my memory unless it's something I know well like MM utilt f6 or dtilt f5 or DK/MM BAir f4. 12 frames isn't awful (I think MM's skull barrier reflector is 11 or so) but it's not great.

Trampoline definitely limits ground games. Hydrant creates a neutral situation. Your argument hinges on one thing, giving you time to charge bonus fruit. If I'm anyone who has a charge attack (brawler, gunner, samus, robin, DK, Lucario, and Shulk to a degree with his arts) I'll gladly charge mine while you charge yours. Because...

Bonus fruit isn't even that good. -gasp-

It's not spammable, so it can't exert much pressure, and the reward on hit isn't high enough to base your entire game on charging it up unlike Samus' Charge Shot. Especially when you have characters with reflectors. Of the charge attacks, I don't find Bonus Fruit to be as intimidating as any of the other charge attacks.

The important thing here is that none of these options actually help you control/dominate positional play, also known as stage control. At best, they set neutral situations where you can charge your bonus fruit and then attack or keep retreating to stall. Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are far better stage control characters than Pacman. I really appreciate the discussion, but I still don't think his stage control is even remotely good.


Yet one more thing Mega Man does what Falco wishes he could do. Lemon lock > utilt/dsmash is a thing and it's beautiful.

Alright, I'm going to respond to this in it's entirety which is essentially, Pac-Man can't camp with his tools. And I agree with this. Me and weirdchillfever are the main ones on the pac-man forum who see pac-man as a whole rather than focusing on one of the small aspects of his game (camping, great off stage game, Mario frame data, etc.)
What's flawed in your viewpoint is that you try to base your opinion around one aspect of his game and then claim he's bad because he doesn't excel at that one category. This is why we don't have many pac-msn players; because so few people know what type of character he is. Yes, his camping tools have easy flaws to exploit...but is that all they can be used for? Yes his fruit takes a while to charge and don't have the damage to compensate...but do you really think the damage is the only reward they offer?

Pac-Man is a character that requires you to think differently. He is the most unique character on the roster and demands a high amount of creativity to play him because of his incredible versatility. As weirdchillfever said, he is a toolbox character. You use your tools to solve any problem you run into. "Oh, the hydrant is a poor stage control tool" then why use it for that? Instead I use bair -> jab to make a wall in front of me that absorbs projectiles and blasts opponents away who get near while I charge my fruit to assist me in a future or current situation. I can even utilt my hydrant to give myself a giant bouncing hitbox in front of me to deter aerial approaches. It gets more fun with customs when we get a hydrant that spits fire which keeps the opponent away more and deals more damage (just don't over rely on it for stage control. It limits your movement too) and the fire hydrant that helps us dodge moves and functions as a tool to help us blast opponents away for spacing.
You say that stronger characters use my hydrant better than me, which I find asinine. Unless Ganon can choose where he wants to lay the hydrant, and can use it whenever he wants for the situation, then he will never use it as well as the summoner. Launching faster != better usage
Better usage is having different options to launch it whenever the situation calls.
The loss of rush canceling was a tragedy (not really, it needed to go. Being able to escape any multi hit move is cancerous no matter how fun it was) but what if I told you that a version of it still exists? Meet the mappy trampoline, which makes pac the ultimate escape artist. No aerial approach beats frame 1 upB out of sheild. Also, we can escape grabs from any character if we anticipate it, and use it as soon as their grab comes out. Tricky, but it will certainly help in the long run against grab happy characters (diddy, the basis of mega man's CQC, falcon, etc.)
It can even escape some multi hit moves. You can even use it offensively to pop opponent's sheilds since our grab leaves a lot to be desired. Use it in whatever way benefits you the most instead of just placing it on the stage all the time. It can help ruin ground approaches, but it can't be heavily relied on for that because it disappears.

"BF isn't that good"
You are quite the comedian.
BF is the most versatile move in his kit.

Cherry- very fast and has good hitstun. Very effective in nuetral.

Strawberry- fast, bounces far and high enough to punish all short hop approaches (sheik)

Orange-amazing edgeguard and gimp machine. Good horizontal knock back and catches rolls, techs, and short hops.

Apple-great vertical knockback. Bounces high enough to catch short hops. Covers landing because of its steep trajectory when thrown.

Melon-takes a while to get, but tanks most projectiles (including all energy based ones like Mega Man's fsmash, samus charge shot, and sun salutation. All fruit have this property.)
Moves slowly so you can run behind it while it eats projectiles and forces your opponent to react.

Galaxian- combo starter. Awesome sheild pressure.

Bell- combos with dash attack. Can steal kills at 90% with its stun. Stage spikes opponents on the ledge or near it.

Key- 15 percent. Cuts through everything. High knockback. Verry fast.

Factor In the ability to z drop all of these after catching them when they bounce off of the opponent, their sheild, or the hydrant (another use for the hydrant) and various other ways to catch them.
All of this makes pac-man a legitimate threat because he will never fight the same way every match, and he has a way to get through every possible scenario.
Also, I'm very unsure about the pellet coming out on f12. The entire line maybe, but not the pellet. I have stopped charge shots right before they hit with that move.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

He's so mediocre that there's nothing really to say. They took the things marth had going for them and basically deleted them. What else can we say about it?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can any of Marth's aerials be frame cancelled? It would definitely help him out.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can any of Marth's aerials be frame cancelled? It would definitely help him out.

I don't know if doing an aerial that close to the ground would do Marth much good in this scenario though. A lot of his best work was with wide, sweeping strikes that lasted a decent amount of time and had disjoint, but they were really good because of their frame data and how they had a lot less lag and were generally just better. Marth is really just numerically altered but it kills him. I don't really know what Frame Cancels would do for him besides maybe a setup into a Tipper which could help a bit, but otherwise I got nothin.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

Woah bad? i would not say hes bad
but if anyone can explain ur why he not utter horse crap like ur making him out to be its @ Shaya

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wasn't it proven that Marth's sword did not shrink this time?

Sword didn't shrink (fsmash/ftilt disjoints aside, those did get nerfed), but his reach certainly did. Compare SSB4 animations to Melee/Brawl/PM. First thing you should notice is that he extends less on most attacks in SSB4.

 

[meleebrawler]

So it's not his sword, but rather him throwing out his back for leaning forward too much?
(And the Kid Icarus gang thought Ike aged poorly...)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

Marth's range is actually slightly bigger this time overall. F-tilt took a range nerf, and F-smash ate a big one, tohugh.

The problem is that Marth's ground game has been nerfed so much. Dtilt doesn't even come close to linking into side B anymore and I've yet to see DB3 successfully link into DB4, which is actually ridiculous. I just hope it wasn't done on purpose so I can tell myself that it's just a mistake. All the things that Marth used to be good at in Brawl look to be rather irrelevant now: shield pressure means little in a game where shield pokes are less common than outright shield breaks [seriously, how many times do you actually get your shield poked or stabbed in smash 4?], having amazing tools to punish spotdodges doesn't get you far anymore when the only tool you have to punish rolls with is one of the worst dash attacks in the game and when you have no grounded options that you can legitimately follow up after your [still amazing] nair then you really don't have anything to threaten most of your opponents with.

He's so mediocre that there's nothing really to say. They took the things marth had going for them and basically deleted them. What else can we say about it?

I dunno, I just wanted to see if people agree with me in the first place. Nobody else so far has pointed out how underwhelming he is by this game's standards so I wasn't sure if other people see what I'm seeing.

 

[Asdioh]

Can we talk about how bad Marth is in smash 4? I see people place him in high tier or the higher ranks of mid tier and I'm profoundly confused. That character has like nothing going for him except a minimal chance of rigging rage tipper kills at fraudulent percent.

While I agree he's probably not high tier, and he's probably worse than ever, I wouldn't call the tipper kills a minimal chance. Marth players know their own range, they should be able to intentionally get these hits.

Also, when people say Lucina is worse than Marth because her attacks are less safe on shield, I can't help but remember that this is the same game where people are saying "shields are bad now!" because simply waiting beats shields. That, combined with moves literally called "Shield Breaker," combined with the fastest walking speeds in the game, combined with top half of the cast air mobility, combined with having an actual sword (despite how short that sword may or may not be) means their bait and punish game is pretty strong, especially when stronger-than-ever(?) tippers are involved.

Sure Marth has weaknesses, but it seems like if you're patient and play him to his strengths, he's pretty strong. The 3rd-4th hits of Dancing Blade not connecting, among other crappiness in his moveset, sounds like unfortunate oversights, the devs probably didn't want him to be too strong and overdid it. I'd prefer this Marth over the Melee Marth that invalidated a lot of characters because his sword was longer than their entire bodies.

That said, I don't really know the character inside and out, so I may be wrong. I just think that if Kirby can make it work with his inferior speed, lack of disjoints, lack of tippers for absurdly early KOs, and lighter weight, Marth can do the same.

 

[ZHMT]

If Marth's autocancel windows weren't terrible he would be so much better. As in, his autocancel windows being improved would help him more than most characters in the game. It's dumb that you have to choose between 15-18 frames of landing lag or being in the air for far longer than necessary. Last time I played Marth it felt like his nair was completely butchered.

Also I played Marth for years and years in previous games, they can change his autocancel windows, if they do, he would probably be incredible.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is pretty bad and I've been saying so in numerous posts here.
You must've missed it

Marth's aerial mobility got hella nerfed; to META KNIGHT TIER.
Marth looks at 40+ frames of lag every time he uses his aerials while good characters look at sub 20.
DB3 into DB4 actually does still combo (they have similar data specs to Brawl), it's DB1 and Db2 that have had all its stuff changed that makes them not link together (if db1 links into db2 it's at a position where they're guaranteed to not get hit into db3, but if they do get db3'd they get db4'd).

Walking isn't that good. At least right now.
Oh, you're meant to keep grounded on new Marth? Let's just add 2 to 11 frames of lag onto the end of every single one of your ground moves bar Fsmash & Dsmash.

But yeah, that's all I'm really looking for - auto cancels. He practically doesn't have any auto cancels on any aerial. None of them sync up to regular jump actions at all like they usually would (in previous games you could look at character's jump data and auto cancel data and see exactly what scenarios Sakurai saw when trying to be safe with your aerials, there is no such noticeable logic throughout M/L's aerials). None of them sync up to FF actions either. He uses his aerials like every other character has to use grounded moves with hardly any of the benefits of the air. Funny you mention neutral air, it was his most nerfed move yet the normalisation of sword positions buffed just how much range the thing could hit people from, but most of the time that's not enough, nair is still a 50+ frame commitment and we can't even reactively use it like in Brawl at all.

DB was "purposely" massacred although I see instances of design intentions with what they were going with. (DB1 actually being a thing, focused on using it in the air more). But 45 frame ground move that isn't safe on hit and doesn't combo into db2 properly (or anything else) most of the time? Double the start up from the previous game? Cancels dash/walking momentum (Disgustingly BAD)? Oh and it does 2-3%!
It's gone from what was likely the best side-b in the entirety of Brawl to likely one of the worst moves in the game. Well, at least it's good against Shield-stance Shulk. If he had more aerial freedom the mix up options available with aerial DB would start to actually look good.

Some notion of aerial DB1 (it's hardly better than it was in Brawl though) and shield breaker "buffs" is all that Marth was given in between his game transitions while having every other nuance or strategy gutted or plainly removed. There is no depth left for this character, his tools have gone from simple and masterful to one-dimensional and dim.
I can even look at Meta Knight and see all new applications for every single special, a new shuttle loop, side-b, and a now more usable/effective dimension cape!".
I can look at Falco and see how vertically combo-oriented he's been made, have fun with more powerful moves like fair and down tilt, using lasers in new ways, new usages of bair!
I then look at Zero Suit Samus and see how practically every single move she has is different. And picking the right one kills at 40%, just like Marth does, except she isn't extremely sub average at everything else (oh and she's usually safe attempting those set ups too!)
I then look back at Marth and think to myself "okay I can hard read them shielding or abuse them panicking upon reacting to my shieldbreaker by holding the charge" (they can just roll to avoid all problems) and that's all the character has... ;\

 

[Locke 06]

Put hydrants and trampolines all over the field and I don't see how Luigi is approaching without major difficulty. Pac Man being able to heal off of any fireball attempt is insult to injury

This is funny because we beat sheik, and go even with both diddy and yoshi by playing keep away even with our terribad grab.

As far as Pac-Man goes, between all of his special moves, I think he is a legitimate time out threat to 90% of the cast, and against the other 10%, he can hold his own because the characters that outcamp him don't have the best CQC games to demolish him with.

does not agree with

Alright, I'm going to respond to this in it's entirety which is essentially, Pac-Man can't camp with his tools. And I agree with this.

Look up "Pacman" in this thread and you'll see a lot of posts about how he has "the best stalling game" or "incredible stage control" due to the trampoline & hydrant. The way he takes advantage of the stage control/stalling is by being able to charge bonus fruit. This is the general impression of Pacman. He camps and hides behind his hydrants/trampolines forcing aerial approaches with his bonus fruit putting him in a good position to punish aerial approaches due to their predictability. This is where the thought that Pacman would be "top 3" if he had a normal standing grab originates from.

This is what I have a problem with. And that's why I wrote up these posts. To dispel the notion he's good at stage control/camping. I'm not claiming he's bad because he doesn't excel at stage control. I'm claiming he doesn't excel at stage control at all, thus the common impression of the character is wrong.

(regarding the hydrant) Instead I use bair -> jab to make a wall in front of me that absorbs projectiles and blasts opponents away who get near while I charge my fruit to assist me in a future or current situation.

And the minute you BAir it, your opponent can jab/hit it as well using it against you. This is what AA is talking about with how easily the hydrant is used against you. Of course the summoner can choose where to place the hydrant, but Pacman standing next to a placed hydrant is less threatening than Ganondorf standing next to a placed hydrant. That's what I mean when I say "other characters use it better."

Regarding the trampoline...

So, use trampolines aggressively. I can get on board with that. You know what that's not doing? Controlling the stage and setting up traps. If you hit with up-B, then you've set up the trampoline. I'm all for that. However, if you're throwing up a trampoline in neutral... that makes no sense.

Using it as a pseudo rush cancel is great. However, closest thing to rush canceling is not the trampoline, but it's Greninja's shadow sneak. The issue I have with trampoline is that if you make a mistake with it, you're going to eat a very hard punish, which is where it differs from rush canceling.

Regarding bonus fruit - Just because it's "versatile" doesn't mean it's great. It's good, but not something you can consistently hinge your game plan on. (Note: Second sentence is pure opinion)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My general impression of Pacman overall:

I think Pacman is bad not because of a lack of stage control, but because he doesn't have a way to deal with the top characters.
How do you beat Sheik and go even with Diddy and Yoshi? What about characters like Rosa, Fox, Mario, Villager, and Mega who all have anti-projectile tools and can keep you out (with the exception of Fox & Mario who outclass you up close)?
I read about half of the pacman matchup thread and a lot of the answers to the top rush down tier is to camp/"lame" them out. However, we just acknowledged Pacman isn't good at that... so back to square 1? His versatility is nice and the trampoline defense/offense is amazing and probably helps him a ton in Sheik/Diddy, but is that enough? I seriously question his ability to deal with the strengths of the top tier. Maybe that's because I don't know what Pac's gameplan would be against these characters, but a lot of times when I see Pacman matches it feels like the opponent just doesn't know the MU well enough and that's why he wins. When someone shields as the hydrant goes over their head after an fsmash, I see a lack of knowledge as the problem instead of a strong character. I'm open to seeing him as a good character... but right now I just don't see it.

RE Pac v Mega matchup since I know you're going to ask. I think Skull Barrier changes that MU significantly, as now Pacman is forced to approach and approach without projectiles.

Pac-Man is a character that requires you to think differently. He is the most unique character on the roster...

I'd give those title of most unique to Peach, Mega, and Duck Hunt. Float, pellets, and can require a much more unconventional thought process than Pac's toolkit. Opinion point, but one I had a good chuckle at.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

from what i know foxes lazer is even more laggy than falco. i dont have number just animation reference seeing how slow fox puts away his blaster compared to falco.
icould very well be wrong though.

Fox's blaster is bad too though, but Fox at least has Charge Blaster which is good in its own way whereas none of Falco's custom variants are worth anything. Stuff like fireballs, pills, thunder jolts, shooting/floaty star bits, everything (Toon) Link can do, aura spheres, charge shots, missiles, Villager's entire moveset, Mega Man's entire moveset, Mii Gunner's entire moveset, cans, clay pigeons, needles, paralyzers, Chef food, shotputs, tornados, fruit, pikmin, sun salutations, eggs, flamethrowers, fire breath, gordos, Robin magic, phantoms, mechakoopas that may or may not be giant, turnips... It's all better than space animal lasers in this game. I'm not even convinced Fox/Falco default lasers are as good of projectiles as something like Sonic's spring to be real, and Sonic's spring is pretty limited as a projectile. Fox isn't as hurt by this since he has a good custom in neutral-3 and even if he wants the Falco style laser or even his default Fox is so mobile that he can just apply his normals directly with ease and not worry so much that his projectile is extremely niche. Falco's lower movement speed means he really would like to have a decent projectile for cover a lot more, and he just doesn't.

---

If we're going to talk most unique character, which is a purely academic point, I think it has to be Olimar. I was also toying with Olimar side-3 last night, and it's actually a really strong custom that probably lets Olimar be a real problem in at least some match-ups as it really pumps up his zoning game a lot. It in no way really solves his core problems but it at least puts an exclamation point on his strengths. Related, it's such a "shame" he's down to 3 pikmin; I'm pretty sure side-3 on him would be completely broken with 6 but as it stands it's merely a good move.

 

[Nu~]

does not agree with


Look up "Pacman" in this thread and you'll see a lot of posts about how he has "the best stalling game" or "incredible stage control" due to the trampoline & hydrant. The way he takes advantage of the stage control/stalling is by being able to charge bonus fruit. This is the general impression of Pacman. He camps and hides behind his hydrants/trampolines forcing aerial approaches with his bonus fruit putting him in a good position to punish aerial approaches due to their predictability. This is where the thought that Pacman would be "top 3" if he had a normal standing grab originates from.

This is what I have a problem with. And that's why I wrote up these posts. To dispel the notion he's good at stage control/camping. I'm not claiming he's bad because he doesn't excel at stage control. I'm claiming he doesn't excel at stage control at all, thus the common impression of the character is wrong.

And the minute you BAir it, your opponent can jab/hit it as well using it against you. This is what AA is talking about with how easily the hydrant is used against you. Of course the summoner can choose where to place the hydrant, but Pacman standing next to a placed hydrant is less threatening than Ganondorf standing next to a placed hydrant. That's what I mean when I say "other characters use it better."

Regarding the trampoline...

Using it as a pseudo rush cancel is great. However, closest thing to rush canceling is not the trampoline, but it's Greninja's shadow sneak. The issue I have with trampoline is that if you make a mistake with it, you're going to eat a very hard punish, which is where it differs from rush canceling.

Regarding bonus fruit - Just because it's "versatile" doesn't mean it's great. It's good, but not something you can consistently hinge your game plan on. (Note: Second sentence is pure opinion)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My general impression of Pacman overall:

I think Pacman is bad not because of a lack of stage control, but because he doesn't have a way to deal with the top characters.
How do you beat Sheik and go even with Diddy and Yoshi? What about characters like Rosa, Fox, Mario, Villager, and Mega who all have anti-projectile tools and can keep you out (with the exception of Fox & Mario who outclass you up close)?
I read about half of the pacman matchup thread and a lot of the answers to the top rush down tier is to camp/"lame" them out. However, we just acknowledged Pacman isn't good at that... so back to square 1? His versatility is nice and the trampoline defense/offense is amazing and probably helps him a ton in Sheik/Diddy, but is that enough? I seriously question his ability to deal with the strengths of the top tier. Maybe that's because I don't know what Pac's gameplan would be against these characters, but a lot of times when I see Pacman matches it feels like the opponent just doesn't know the MU well enough and that's why he wins. When someone shields as the hydrant goes over their head after an fsmash, I see a lack of knowledge as the problem instead of a strong character. I'm open to seeing him as a good character... but right now I just don't see it.

RE Pac v Mega matchup since I know you're going to ask. I think Skull Barrier changes that MU significantly, as now Pacman is forced to approach and approach without projectiles.

I'd give those title of most unique to Peach, Mega, and Duck Hunt. Float, pellets, and can require a much more unconventional thought process than Pac's toolkit. Opinion point, but one I had a good chuckle at.

Interesting. I did have a gameplan for how we beat the top tiers (especially projectile based ones because side B invalidates their zoning) and it involves using the trampoline and low tier fruit offensively to stop them from overwhelming us, and to cover our approach so that we can combo them. But I definitely have some new ideas from this discussion that I want to bring to the pac thread on how we can handle the top tiers.
Oh, and I suggest that our character matchup threads should rate the matchup for pac vs mega. Skull barrier really helps mega (or else his entire mid range zoning game gets absorbed by melon and every fruit above). I don't see it giving us that much trouble though, because you are limited to throw m blade and grab for offensive options, while we can still come in and combo you with our fast CQC. We don't even have to approach, we can wait for the cooldown of the barrier and then smack you with the extremely quick key. You can't use it effectively in mid range or we will have a field day with our CQC, meanwhile we can still pelt you with fruit in mid range. And it doesn't even have to be the higher tier ones...
I see the matchup ending up even with skull barrier. But I'm curious to see what both of our character's threads will decide.

 

[DavemanCozy]

In regards to Fox's lasers (default), I feel like their purpose is grossly misunderstood as this thing you should use to pile on damage, like you could in previous games. It seems everyone expects this now, but really: you use them to force approaches, or pile on damage if the opponent does not approach. That's it.

For most matchups, I find myself shooting a few of them, then putting the gun away before things get dangerous. It's kinda like playing Time Crisis in the arcade, you need to know when to stop shooting and assume a safe position. In this game, you stop shooting so you can shield, grab, roll away, dash attack, whatever. Yes, there's endlag, but it's not that hard to get used to.

Of course lasers suck in this game. It was about time that the fastest traveling linear projectiles in the series got nerfed. Still doesn't stop Fox from being a speedy monster.

I find it pretty hard to see Yoshi +3 on Fox as well. That's a rather ridiculous claim to make (that's like Brawl MK vs Luigi bad, which I doubt it's that bad for Fox in this game), I'd like to hear some insight on that. I would maaybe believe +2 adv though.