Character Competitive Impressions

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Mac is THE bottom of High Tier.

 

[Terotrous]

Not to mention...that's not how bans work. Not entirely. A good kit and a good match-up spread does not equal an automatic ban.

No, bans happen when they overcentralize the metagame, but if you have one character who dominates basically every matchup the way I think Little Mac has the potential to it's a definite consideration.

And FSmash isn't telegraphed? Or able to be shielded?

FSmash really isn't very telegraphed at all, actually. It still has extremely fast startup, likely too fast to be reactable between FTilt and FSmash. You basically just have to guess with shield / roll / spotdodge, and if you guess wrong you're getting hit super hard.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No no, Mac can legit just f-smash if he sees you go for a SH. It has armor so he can never lose that exchange. If you did a sh aerial he blows through you. If you jump away then you are bnack at neutral which he excels at. If you just land or wait then you could block but if he spaced well hes safe. Like its a mindless answer to a common situation.

How are you powershielding and punishing moves with less than 8 frame start-up consistently? Are you a god? Also if you powershield the first hit of his f-tilt the second hit is just a regular block.

soooo, yeah

 

[Johnknight1]

Uhh, Falco and Jiggs totally are overpowered in Melee. There's a reason like half the cast is unusable in that game.

Somebody, anybody!

HELP!

Get a doctor because this guy is brain dead!

He can't comprehend that at the last 2 EVO's for Melee only 1 Jigglypuff main and 1 Falco main made top 8, and in addition to Falco and Jigglypuff, Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach, the Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pikachu were played in top 8, or 10 characters total.

That's not counting Mango pulling out his legit Captain Falcon, Shroomed's also legit Mario, or great players like Hax, S2J, Plup, Darrell, aMSa, Eddie Mexico, etc. getting top 25 with characters like Captain Falcon, Samus, Yoshi, and Luigi.

I don't know, but last I checked, 15 is more than half of 26, thus rendering your statement flat out wrong.

Oh, and I forgot Taj playing Mewtwo up to top 16, lol. Truly, Melee is imbalanced, because at EVO 2013 then two low/bottom tier characters were played into top 20, lol.

So that's 16 out of 26.

It also doesn't help your argument that the character spread for which characters win majors in Melee is very diverse.

All this wrongness you posted is because you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Terotrous]

Somebody, anybody!

HELP!

Get a doctor because this guy is brain dead!

He can't comprehend that at the last 2 EVO's for Melee only 1 Jigglypuff main and 1 Falco main made top 8, and in addition to Falco and Jigglypuff, Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach, the Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pikachu were played in top 8, or 10 characters total.

You obviously can't read the part where I said "the reason that this was tolerated in Melee is because there were a handful of broken characters". It's not just Falco and Jigglypuff, Fox, Shiek, Marth, etc, are also totally OP in that game. Melee is basically akin to MvsC2 where you have a handful of people whose tools are far too good and they render most of the cast obsolete except in very specific counterpick matchups. However, there are enough viable characters that just playing the top tier creates a somewhat decent metagame.

However, what has changed is that Sakurai now has a slight idea of how to design characters so you don't have ridiculous nonsense like a one frame invincible move that leads to huge combos at any percent. This means that in Smash 4, we don't have a group of characters who are obviously just super broken and dominate the whole cast. At most, one or two characters might slip through the cracks now, and that's much more likely the centralize the metagame.

 

[Johnknight1]

You obviously can't read the part where I said "the reason that this was tolerated in Melee is because there were a handful of broken characters". Fox, Shiek, Marth, etc, are also totally OP in that game. Melee is basically akin to MvsC2 where you have a handful of people whose tools are far too good and they render most of the cast obsolete except in very specific counterpick matchups.

I think you got Melee mixed up with Brawl bub.

Again, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Mains of 7 of the 8 top characters (some could argue Captain Falcon when Isai won a fairly big tournament, but I don't consider that a major) have won major tournaments (tournaments in my definition with at least 4 of the 5 best active players present), and only I think 3 Falco's (PPMD, Mango, and PC Chris) and 2 Jigglypuffs (Mango and HBox) have won majors.

Notice that both have Mango, the best player ever.

Truth is it's very well balanced.

If you knew anything about MvC2 (as much as I love that game to death), it's the same 4 characters in 3 character teams that win everything, thus it's like the same 3 teams. I think all of them can do infinite combos. Those don't exist in Melee, and that imbalance doesn't exist in Melee, lol.

Now please, stop while you're only insanely terribly behind instead of awfully insanely terribly behind.

 

[Terotrous]

Again, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Mains of 7 of the 8 top characters (some could argue Captain Falcon when Isai won a fairly big tournament, but I don't consider that a major) have won major tournaments (tournaments in my definition with at least 4 of the 5 best active players present), and only I think 3 Falco's (PPMD, Mango, and PC Chris) and 2 Jigglypuffs (Mango and HBox) have won majors.

Truth is it's very well balanced.

Your definition of a very well balanced game is one where 7 out of the 26 characters can win a major?

There's also a least 7 characters who can basically never make top 32, let alone win a major. Still very good balance?


Melee and MvsC2 are basically the posterchildren for haphazard game design. They were both designed by people who had absolutely no clue how the games worked from a competitive level, and as a result there are a ton of completely nonsensical design decisions, creating some characters who are extremely strong and some who are extremely weak. By pure happenstance, both of them happen to have pretty dynamic top tier play, but there's really no way you can call them well-balanced with a straight face.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No, bans happen when they overcentralize the metagame, but if you have one character who dominates basically every matchup the way I think Little Mac has the potential to it's a definite consideration.

Except it's probably not gonna happen, or you're probably gonna end up a matchup spread that kinda looks like Melee at this rate.

In other words, get in line, we got other high tier potentates here.

FSmash really isn't very telegraphed at all, actually. It still has extremely fast startup, likely too fast to be reactable between FTilt and FSmash. You basically just have to guess with shield / roll / spotdodge, and if you guess wrong you're getting hit super hard.

Man, it's like we're playing fighting games! I have to guess correctly and then punish!

Also, I balk at the MvC2 comparison. If anything, Melee's closer to 3S in terms of balance (Chun Li at the top, and Makoto, Gouki, Yun, and Ken scrabbling for a pecking order. Everyone else just kinda falls into place otherwise). Show me a fighter where everyone is totally equal, and I'll be impressed.

@ Emblem Lord

Until I see frame data proven accurately, I'm not buying that guesstimate of 8 frames. And I'm not saying that I personally powershield or even eat Little Macs for breakfast (I ****ing play D3, that **** is hard), it's just the meta's kind of in flux right now. That's like me brushing off Marth as a watered-down, broken version of...him...self...

Oh. Whoops.

Real talk though, it's wayyyy too ****ing early to say this ****. We gotta plumb the depths of the game yet, and that includes the array of defensive options. It's been a month.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

John, chill.
Terotrous, if you have not been apart of the competitive scene of a game, probably should be careful about making sweeping statements about it, lest you get people like JOHN who NEED TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE CHILL THAN THIS TO NOT GET MY IRE causing pain and suffering for all.

Also everyone's definition of balanced is different. But for most competitive gamers a balanced fighter is one where there are multiple top characters who can compete amongst each other. A "balanced" game in the sense of all characters being comparatively viable is just never going to happen. Low tiers in this game still aren't going to win tournaments either.

 

[Johnknight1]

Your definition of a very well balanced game is one where 7 out of the 26 characters can win a major?

In a game where there was an era where 1 player dominated from 2003-2006 with almost no rival, 1 player dominated from 2011-2012 with almost no rival, and 1 player dominated from 2009-2010 and 2013-2014 with almost no rival (because of SKILL more than tiers because those 3 were definitively the best at their time [being Ken, Armada, and Mango respectively)=???

Yep, especially since at most (until this year) there's been what I consider 4 majors top a year, and most years had only 2.

Considering that only from around 2007-2008, and part of 2013 (after Armada "retired") there wasn't one "super dominant player", that's pretty impressive.

The funniest part is that only one player who has primarily used Fox to win a major tournament, and that's Mango (although some argue M2K, but he used Marth more when he was more dominant in 2007 and 2008, and now he mostly sticks with Sheik). I find it hilarious since Fox is top tier, and yet (arguably) more Jigglypuff mains and definitely more Falco mains have won more majors.

At least 16 of the 26 characters are viable. We've seen Young Links win grand finals sets in majors. We've seen Taj go deep in tournaments with his Mewtwo and take games off Armada with his Mewtwo. Mewtwo is 21st on the freaking tier list.

Comso tied for 64th at least year's EVO with Zelda with minimal practice, the character who is currently 19th on Melee's tier list.

The only characters that are truly unviable to win anything are Kirby (who is terribly designed), Pichu (a weaker Pikachu), Roy (wet noodle Marth who is a weaker Marth), Bowser (slowwwww), and Ness (lol recovery).

That's 4.

There's also a least 7 characters who are extremely hard pressed to even win a match, let alone a major. Still very good balance?

With no patches of any sort, yes it is.

I highly doubt Smash 4 several years down the road will be as well balanced without heavy and good patching.

 

[Terotrous]

In other words, get in line, we got other high tier potentates here.

Like I said, I see 3 main contenders for top tier status. Mac, Rosalina, and Sheik.

The way I see it happening is this:

vs Sheik, you can still play your game as you normally would, but chances are she plays your game better than you do.

vs Little Mac, you have to play a totally different game, which your character might be completely terrible at. Even if you can play the matchup well Mac still only needs a couple correct guesses to win.

vs Rosalina is similar to vs Little Mac, though there's a more obvious counterplay available against her since Luma can be killed fairly easily.

Man, it's like we're playing fighting games! I have to guess correctly and then punish!

The question is how many times do you have to guess right vs how many times does your opponent have to guess right. Little Mac is rewarded way more than most other characters for a correct guess because he has such absurd kill power.

Also, I balk at the MvC2 comparison. If anything, Melee's closer to 3S in terms of balance. Show me a fighter where everyone is totally equal, and I'll be impressed.

Street Fighter 4 has come fairly close in Super and AE2012. Some KOF games are also pretty good.

There are also games with "X-Men vs Street Fighter" balance, where everyone is viable because no matter who you pick if you get touched once you're dead. MvsC3 also sort of has this.

 

[Johnknight1]

There are also games with "X-Men vs Street Fighter" balance, where everyone is viable because no matter who you pick if you get touched once you're dead. MvsC3 also sort of has this.

MvC3 is so unbalanced that much of the competitive scene has switched to a point system where different characters are different points to stop teams like Mordoom and whatnot.

The top 5 or so are so dominant in that game that it takes a pretty significant skill gap for one player to win, ala Chris G. vs. Justin Wong.

I mean it's not MvC2 bad, but it's still pretty bad. The entire Marvel vs. Capcom series has always been way too imbalanced.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

AE2012 was still Yun. Lots of people agree. That said, results still varied despite him being better than a good percentage of the cast. Super, well, everybody misses Super, haha. That was probably the most balanced iteration of SF4. Still, some characters stole the spotlight there.

I know nothing of KoF or XvSF meta, but MvC3? Sure, there are characters that do have touch of death combos, but there is a whole echelon of characters and combinations that do it better than others.

Starting to see a pattern here?

Smooth Criminal

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about Little Mac but why is Olimar considered to be one of the worst characters in the game?

 

[Terotrous]

In a game where there was an era where 1 player dominated from 2003-2006 with almost no rival, 1 player dominated from 2011-2012 with almost no rival, and 1 player dominated from 2009-2010 and 2013-2014 with almost no rival (because of SKILL more than tiers because those 3 were definitively the best at their time [being Ken, Armada, and Mango respectively)=???

If the skill of the players is very unbalanced, you should actually see more characters winning, not less. Tier lists apply most when the level of competition is very even, because then it's the difference in character quality that matters.

The only characters that are truly unviable to win anything are Kirby (who is terribly designed), Pichu (a weaker Pikachu), Roy (wet noodle Marth who is a weaker Marth), Bowser (slowwwww), and Ness (lol recovery).

That's 4.

That's actually 5, counting ftw. Also, I would definitely also toss Zelda and GW in there. You can also probably make a case for Link and Mewtwo as well, and characters like Young Link are on the absolute fringes of what could be considered viable.

I highly doubt Smash 4 several years down the road will be as well balanced without heavy and good patching.

I think that's quite possible, but the problem will likely be that most of the cast is balanced with one or two massive outliers who break the game. Ironically, by having more of the cast properly balanced, it actually ends up less balanced overall (unless those characters get banned).

AE2012 was still Yun. Lots of people agree. That said, results still varied despite that. Super, well, everybody misses Super, haha. That was probably the most balanced iteration of SF4. Still, some characters stole the spotlight there.

Uhh, no one puts Yun at the very top in AE2012. At best, he's in one of the higher tiers along with a ton of other characters. If there was a character that broke the game it was Fei Long.

I know nothing of KoF or XvSF meta, but MvC3? Sure, there are characters that do have touch of death combos, but there is a whole echelon of characters and combinations that do it better than others.

In MvsC3, every character can TOD by doing a TAC into a character that can TOD even if they can't do it themselves. Most of the characters who need the TAC to get the kill have strong neutral options for opening people up or have good assists, so they still have value. There's very few characters who don't see use in high level play.

That being said, I find MvsC3 pretty boring because the fact that everyone can open you up, perform strong mixups, and TOD off a single touch makes the cast somewhat homogenous (except for Morrigan and Phoenix). It definitely doesn't have the same kind of interesting matchup dynamics that SF4 does.


Anyway, other fighting game discussion should probably stop before the mods come down with a banhammer on this topic.

 

[DanGR]

A major difference between melee jiggs/Falco and lil Mac is that you don't have have to play lil mac's game. Camp the platforms.

 

[RWB]

In a game where there was an era where 1 player dominated from 2003-2006 with almost no rival, 1 player dominated from 2011-2012 with almost no rival, and 1 player dominated from 2009-2010 and 2013-2014 with almost no rival (because of SKILL more than tiers because those 3 were definitively the best at their time [being Ken, Armada, and Mango respectively)=???

Yep, especially since at most (until this year) there's been what I consider 4 majors top a year, and most years had only 2.

Considering that only from around 2007-2008, and part of 2013 (after Armada "retired") there wasn't one "super dominant player", that's pretty impressive.

Actually, Mango isn't nearly as dominant now as he was in the Pre-Armada era, nor is it anywhere near the dominance Armada had during his reign.

Don't get me wrong, he is the best Melee player in the worsld right now, but the "Five Gods" have gotten a lot closer to eachother, even if some of them tend to outdo the others.

Also, I'm very uncertain about calling Mango "The best player ever".

 

[Terotrous]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about Little Mac but why is Olimar considered to be one of the worst characters in the game?

He got loads of nerfs compared to Brawl and virtually no buffs (his new UpB is actually a nerf. With the new Ledge mechanics Pikmin Chain would be quite good now). That being said, he still retains some of the things that made him good in Brawl. UpSmash out of shield is still ridiculous. Grabs are still good. FSmash still has absurd range and power, though it's much more punishable now.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Not "very top," but "still really good." His nerfs from Vanilla AE weren't that substantial iirc. I probably should have worded that better and said theoretically he was more exceptional than others, my mistake.

As far as MvC3 is concerned, Zero alone shuts down a lot of characters with good assists because of his better neutral game, let alone with assists backing him up (Zero May Cry is fairly popular). Then you have shells like MorriDoom that....lsjdldakgghgkhf render the thought of decent neutral play nigh pointless. It's tough quantifying MvC3.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

A major difference between melee jiggs/Falco and lil Mac is that you don't have have to play lil mac's game. Camp the platforms.

What platforms? Most tournies are only allowing one stage where this is really possible, and that's Battlefield, all others are either flat or the platforms disappear so he can just wait you out. Even then, he can up B you from the ground if you're on the top platform and unless you come down after him you probably can't punish.

Not "very top," but "still really good." His nerfs from Vanilla AE weren't that substantial iirc. I probably should have worded that better and said theoretically he was more exceptional than others, my mistake.

Sure, he's still plenty viable, but there were quite a lot of viable characters. It wasn't like AE anymore where the game was just 99% Yun and 1% Yang.

As far as MvC3 is concerned, Zero alone shuts down a lot of characters with good assists because of his better neutral game, let alone with assists backing him up (Zero May Cry is fairly popular). Then you have shells like MorriDoom that....lsjdldakgghgkhf render the thought of decent neutral play nigh pointless. It's tough quantifying MvC3.

That's X-Men vs Street Fighter balance for you. Everyone is super broken. Obviously, Vergil, Doom, Morrigan, Magneto, etc are also up there, but there's also Dante, Ammy, C.Viper, Phoenix, Frank West, and even characters like Modok and Hulk who have some very powerful stuff.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You forgot Fei Long and maybe C. Viper, Tero. Gosh man, Vanilla AE was called Hong Kong Edition for a reason. lol

And I guess you can say in Versus games whoever has the best gimmick wins.

I dunno, I just feel like it's wayyyyyyyyy too early to be saying stuff like Mac OP. If a year rolls by and Mac is somehow dumber than everybody ala Brawl Metaknight, I'd go with it. At least the community has a precedent to go by.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

I dunno, I just feel like it's wayyyyyyyyy too early to be saying stuff like Mac OP. If a year rolls by and Mac is somehow dumber than everybody ala Brawl Metaknight, I'd go with it. At least the community has a precedent to go by.

Oh, I agree, I'm just making that prediction. My predictions have been pretty good in the past, I called Doom's Hidden Missiles for best assist in MvsC3 on like day 1 (it's the only assist in the game that doesn't stop if he gets hit!), and I was also pretty much bang on with my early tier list predictions for Divekick, at a time when everyone thought Stream and S-Kill were trash tier. We'll see if I'm on the money again this time.

There's just something about him that says OP to me. If you can guess wrong that many times and get outplayed for most of the match and yet still consistently come out on top, I think you're going to be very, very dangerous in the hands of a really good player.

 

[_Magus_]

Ganondorf is either high mid tier or low high tier. Definitely not last. Early kills and gimps galore. Plus, he lives way longer with the new no ledgehogging thing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SOme of the Street Fighter talk in this thread is making my head hurt

3rd Strike: Chun Li and Yun were top tier, Ken trailed behind a little. Makoto, Akuma, Urien, etc were good but they were clearly inferior to those 3

AE2010: All Yun. Yang was overrated, they still deleted him anyway owell

AE2012: This is where I lose you guys. Akuma and Fei Long were top 2. Past that things got real debatable real fast. Cammy was an obvious contender for 3rd but she never really won anything, so whatever. Yun was somewhere in top 10, but not better than 5th. Top 5 was probably some combination of Fei, akuma, sakura, cammy, and maybe like ibuki.

Balance in SF4 after AE2012 is leagues better than Melee or Brawl's balance. Both of those games have sucky balance. Arguiing about which one of them had better balance is like arguing about who is the best Brawl Ganon... irrelevant. Brawl has an overall pretty solid balance but MK to ruin ****+a bunch of ****ty chaingrabs and Melee had like 4-5 characters that are super top tier, 3-4 that are okay but still not really worth playing and then like 20 characters that are absolute Ganon-level trash.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Except it's probably not gonna happen, or you're probably gonna end up a matchup spread that kinda looks like Melee at this rate.

In other words, get in line, we got other high tier potentates here.



Man, it's like we're playing fighting games! I have to guess correctly and then punish!

Also, I balk at the MvC2 comparison. If anything, Melee's closer to 3S in terms of balance (Chun Li at the top, and Makoto, Gouki, Yun, and Ken scrabbling for a pecking order. Everyone else just kinda falls into place otherwise). Show me a fighter where everyone is totally equal, and I'll be impressed.

@ Emblem Lord

Until I see frame data proven accurately, I'm not buying that guesstimate of 8 frames. And I'm not saying that I personally powershield or even eat Little Macs for breakfast (I ****ing play D3, that **** is hard), it's just the meta's kind of in flux right now. That's like me brushing off Marth as a watered-down, broken version of...him...self...

Oh. Whoops.

Real talk though, it's wayyyy too ****ing early to say this ****. We gotta plumb the depths of the game yet, and that includes the array of defensive options. It's been a month.

Smooth Criminal

I mean 8 frames seems pretty accurate. Do you know any tilts in this series over 10 frame start-up? Also..no offense but I have far more faith in Marth than I do deded. Dedede has matches imo he legit CANNOT win.

I get what you are saying but I feel you are pulling the wool over your eyes in some respects.

Yang might have been overrated in AE but he was nothing short of top 5. He was pretty insane. Tons of ultra set-ups, crazy footsies and lots of great options.

 

[_Magus_]

Dedede has matches imo he legit CANNOT win.

*cough* Dr. Mario *cough cough*

 

[DanGR]

What platforms? Most tournies are only allowing one stage where this is really possible, and that's Battlefield, all others are either flat or the platforms disappear so he can just wait you out. Even then, he can up B you from the ground if you're on the top platform and unless you come down after him you probably can't punish.

Of the 3 neutrals you typically see, 2 have at least 1 platform. One platform is enough to swing a lot of matchups against lil mac. That's 1 of 3 matches, at the very least, where you can utilize platform camping.

Most counterpicks have at least one consistent platform as well. I don't know what stage lists you're looking at where this isn't the case.

You can't honestly suggest his upb as a very consistent counter to this strat. The risk:reward ratio isn't very good aside from the occasional hard-read.
If anything, his counter helps him the most here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean 8 frames seems pretty accurate. Do you know any tilts in this series over 10 frame start-up? Also..no offense but I have far more faith in Marth than I do deded. Dedede has matches imo he legit CANNOT win.

I get what you are saying but I feel you are pulling the wool over your eyes in some respects.

In this game, Ike's F-tilt and U-tilt I think are at least 12 frames startup. So is Link's F-tilt and I believe Peach's D-tilt.

And Ganon's U-tilt is probably like 80 frames.

 

[_Magus_]

And Ganon's U-tilt is probably like 80 frames.

DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU DISSIN' THE 'DORF'S UTILT, BRO!! IDC how bad it is XD

 

[PKNintendo]

Man, some of you guys are way too optimistic.

This game is going to be top heavy, just like always. Top tiers will still dominate. Bottom/Low tier characters are still going to be worthless. I feel bad for the tournament players who plan on sticking by them.

Incidentally, is there a character more hopeless than Lucina? She's just a inferior Marth. Soon, Lucina mains will have to contend with the fact that they're using a character that's flat out inferior to another character.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I mean 8 frames seems pretty accurate. Do you know any tilts in this series over 10 frame start-up? Also..no offense but I have far more faith in Marth than I do deded. Dedede has matches imo he legit CANNOT win.

I get what you are saying but I feel you are pulling the wool over your eyes in some respects.

I was being glib. I actually think Marth's a lot better than people give him credit for (@ Shaya , I'm directing this at you too), even without customs. I'm well aware that D3, my character, is booty though. No illusions, none. Some match-ups he's going to get ripped to shreds in. Little Mac, especially, is probably going to make me regret my character choice. But, I would actually like to play the game in a offline setting that isn't hindered by shoddy controls (because let's face it, even our finest players are maladjusted to the 3DS and 2DS setups sometimes) and sometimes laggy wireless connection before I really get down on things, feel me? I also want to play it for more than a month against other people in person.

We got a long way to go yet, imo.

Man, some of you guys are way too optimistic.

This game is going to be top heavy, just like always. Top tiers will still dominate. Bottom/Low tier characters are still going to be worthless. I feel bad for the tournament players who plan on sticking by them.

I'm being realistic, I dunno about the rest of these people. I just spent a page and a half ending up in a deadlock with someone over balance in various games and how it's scattered across the freaking board. We will have a pecking order, one way or another.

...Ijustdon'tthinkMacisgoingtobesittingatthetoponthecuspofgettingbannedcoughcoughcough

Incidentally, is there a character more hopeless than Lucina? She's just a inferior Marth. Soon, Lucina mains will have to contend with the fact that they're using a character that's flat out inferior to another character.

At least I have a counterpick character or three in mind for horrendous matchups.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

DON'T EVER LET ME HEAR YOU DISSIN' THE 'DORF'S UTILT, BRO!! IDC how bad it is XD

I never said it was bad. To clarify, U-tilt does have a use in this game for conservative ledge pressure.

Man, some of you guys are way too optimistic.

This game is going to be top heavy, just like always. Top tiers will still dominate. Bottom/Low tier characters are still going to be worthless. I feel bad for the tournament players who plan on sticking by them.

Incidentally, is there a character more hopeless than Lucina? She's just a inferior Marth. Soon, Lucina mains will have to contend with the fact that they're using a character that's flat out inferior to another character.

Well...say hi to every competitive game ever. Even then, it's pretty blatantly obvious that some really good decisions were made in terms of balancing the game. Much MUCH better than in previous games besides arguably 64.

Lucina is probably better against characters like Sonic and Fox who are really difficult to space precisely against. That isn't trivial competitively.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah this game was very consciously balanced (or at least attempts were made and it is quite visible.) Every competitive game is top heavy, but if the environment lets the lower ones put in work and at the very least place regularly and be ABLE to compete in the right hands, then it's good. I won't expect bottom tiers in the top 25 but I at least expect them to be able to do stuff, and so far (key note, so far) it seems like that is the case.

Even Dr. Mario who is, from a general consensus, Mid-low to low tier (some say bottom but I'm going from overall impressions), feels really good to use and I feel like he CAN actually compete!

 

[_Magus_]

Even Dr. Mario who is, from a general consensus, Mid-low to low tier (some say bottom but I'm going from overall impressions), feels really good to use and I feel like he CAN actually compete!

Tru dat! I'm gonna try to take him as far as he can go. His moveset is just so satisfying.

 

[mimgrim]

Eh. It’s really too soon to know how good the balance really is for the game.

I will say this though. I think the game is going to be dominated by characters with a good footsie game. That’s why characters like ZSS, Fox, Falcon, Mac, Lucario, Yoshi, Diddy, ect… look so good in this game. Super Footsie Brothers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Man, some of you guys are way too optimistic.

This game is going to be top heavy, just like always. Top tiers will still dominate. Bottom/Low tier characters are still going to be worthless. I feel bad for the tournament players who plan on sticking by them.

Incidentally, is there a character more hopeless than Lucina? She's just a inferior Marth. Soon, Lucina mains will have to contend with the fact that they're using a character that's flat out inferior to another character.

Pretty sure Lucina mains knew that week 1. The intelligent ones anyway. Not that she is hopeless. But a Marth with a lower ceiling.

Dedede will be a good counter pick. I dont think anyone should main him

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, I'm maining D3. Sooo

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, never say no one warned you.

Seriously dedede vs sonic?

Jesus tap dancing Christ

 

[Signia]

Balance is overrated. Soul Calibur 5 and Virtua Fighter 5:FS are both way more balanced than any 2D fighting game, and you don't see people playing those.

The only reason why these characters didn't get banned is because there's a few characters who are equally busted, if there was only one they would have been banned.

Banning characters is a silly idea to most players of any FG scene. Nobody has considered banning any Melee top tiers for any reason (though there was a time when people cried for a Puff ban and people just laughed at them).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, never say no one warned you.

Seriously dedede vs sonic?

Jesus tap dancing Christ

These shoes are made for runnin'

And that's just what they'll do

One of these days these shoes

Are gonna run all over you~

You may not see it, but this penguin's got a sad smile on his face. I don't know what in the blue blazes I'm gonna do to that damn running rodent. You're right, that match-up is straight masochism.

But I have a hammer. That counts for something, right?

Smooth Criminal