Character Competitive Impressions

[Untouch]

I feel people are sleeping on pikachu.

His air game is great, he just doesn't have much kill potential outside of usmash.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I feel people are sleeping on pikachu.

His air game is great, he just doesn't have much kill potential outside of usmash.

What people....
-_-

You been sleepin on this thread mah boi.

 

[Shaya]

I feel people are sleeping on pikachu.

His air game is great, he just doesn't have much kill potential outside of usmash.

^ No we're not.

I would say most people believe he's firmly top 10 at this stage.

 

[Jabejazz]

I wish people would sleep on him.

Hell, let the ****ing rat rest in a sealed cave.

 

[Untouch]

I haven't seen many people play him.
Guess I've been missing that.

 

[NairWizard]

If anything, Pikachu is sleeping on us.

 

[Spirst]

Oh god, not this whole "sleeping on" business again.

 

[BSP]

He shuts down projectile characters really hard, outzones characters who don't have projectiles with trees and rockets, can't be edgeguarded easily at all, and edgeguards everyone else with what I believe is a frame-3 n-air (it's something absurd at least). And he only gets better with customs. I'm glad he doesn't have a good grab, because he'd be SSS tier if he did.

Pac Man is the same way with that last sentence. Great stage control and projectiles that cover a wide range of situations. He'd be so good with a normal grab.

Back to villager though. I feel like Mario has great edgeguarding vs. Villager. Doc too, but to a lesser extent without FLUDD.
Super Sheet and Cape will pop the balloons, but they won't make Villager flinch. For Mario, if Villager Loid Rockets above the ledge, or doesn't head to the ledge with balloon trip, he either takes a free hit or dies to FLUDD.

Of course, the reverse is true. Villager can go deep to make sure that Mario/Doc doesn't recover, and it's as simple as hitting either out of his DJ with slingshot.

I would love to be able to experiment with the FLUDDs and pushing villager offstage for trying to zone with slingshot, but no customs down here yet.

Regarding Pac Man though: any idea on why basically no top players in the U.S. uses him? I know his grab is a bit disconcerting considering how powerful shield is as an option in this game. Not going to lie, it's really frustrating when someone's in his face and you can't grab unless they space horribly. Other than that, I don't see any major problems with the character. I mean, he has a move that forces people to jump if they want to come to him, no matter what. Oh, except Wario because of his Bike.

Hey guys, didja know Meta Knight can stop Sonic Spin Dash with properly timed shuttle loops and tornadoes?

Maybe we got a nice counter to sonic, tornado wracks damage, shuttle loop kills. Be careful if you dash Sonic.

Those are some pretty big commitments to stop a move as versatile as spindash if you ask me. If you miss or Sonic shields either, MK is eating 25%+ and he's in the air.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Some of this is all just flavor, everyone has their character.
The people who favored pac-man haven't made their name heard

I hope customs come back in fashion but more so I would prefer Mii meta's not stagnating from arbitrary rules.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Yes, Link has difficulty pressing his advantage against Diddy.

Link might win in neutral, but in advantage and disadvantage he's not so great.

Would you mind unpacking that a bit? With the assumption Link wins neutral there, I would've said staying in neutral *is* pressing his advantage. Are you referring to when Diddy's trying to land on stage and Link's trapping? Uair and up-bomb toss seem to both work well keeping the monkey up a tree. Are you referring to edgeguarding? Or some other advantageous positioning?

I of course agree with Shaya that when someone -- not just Diddy -- gets past Link's wall of projectiles, then past the sword, Link will be punished hard and sometimes has a hard time getting back to zoning in neutral, but I also don't find landing with Link to be all that difficult, what with Z-drop etc. Nor does Diddy's proclivity to Uair peeps off the top blast line seem as scary with Link being semi-heavy + a good fastfaller. Nor does Diddy's "linear gameplay style" (other poster's recent words) seem hard to outzone.

What am I missing?

 

[NairWizard]

Would you mind unpacking that a bit? With the assumption Link wins neutral there, I would've said staying in neutral *is* pressing his advantage. Are you referring to when Diddy's trying to land on stage and Link's trapping? Uair and up-bomb toss seem to both work well keeping the monkey up a tree. Are you referring to edgeguarding? Or some other advantageous positioning?

I of course agree with Shaya that when someone -- not just Diddy -- gets past Link's wall of projectiles, then past the sword, Link will be punished hard and sometimes has a hard time getting back to zoning in neutral, but I also don't find landing with Link to be all that difficult, what with Z-drop etc. Nor does Diddy's proclivity to Uair peeps off the top blast line seem as scary with Link being semi-heavy + a good fastfaller. Nor does Diddy's "linear gameplay style" (other poster's recent words) seem hard to outzone.

What am I missing?

Quoting myself first on my general matchup thoughts:

Sorry to rain on the parade of anti-Diddy tactics, but I think Link is a fairly poor choice against Diddy. It's doable from the Link side, but Diddy is just too mobile for Link, and Diddy's aerials are just too big.

You mentioned d-air, but I think that d-air is a really poor option vs. Diddy. The Diddy can just wait and punish you for using such a laggy move, and if you use it to bounce off his shield you're getting f-smashed or f-aired or b-aired. You're much better off using fastfall n-air to interrupt Diddy's combos.

He has footsies that work against Diddy's footsies, but so do most of the cast. The problem for most is that Diddy gets more reward out of landing a hit in footsies than they do, and Link is no different in this regard. The reward that Link gets for landing a jab on Diddy is trivial compared to the reward that Diddy gets for landing a banana -> grab -> f-air string.

Link has decent options against Monkey Flip, but most of them are predictive, outside of spotdodging: you have to see the Monkey Flip coming and hit up-smash or up-tilt (you shouldn't roll if you don't know that it's coming; that's a fairly mediocre option compared to spotdodge, which also lets you attack Diddy during the endlag of the move). Spin is way too slow to perform on reaction, unless Diddy misses his side-b (but crawldashing should get him out of harm's way).

On the flipside, Link lacks one of the most useful qualities vs. Diddy: a good grab. The best way to not get grabbed (outside of the Ice Climbers MU) is to grab first. But Link has a really hard time grabbing first because if he relies too much on grabs he leaves himself wide open (this is why tether grab characters have historically struggled vs. high-reward characters like Diddy). His grab is very laggy.

Link is also very tall, and he falls pretty fast, both traits that you don't want against Diddy's aerial game. I think he's one of the easier characters for Diddy to harass with throw combos and f-airs. Link's tether recovery is pretty good against Diddy's edgeguarding, though, that much is true.

If you want a slow sword character with a projectile and a bad grab who does decently against Diddy, Robin is a safe bet--but I think that Robin loses also. Probably by a little less than Link because Diddy has a hard time dealing with Levin aerials like f-air and up-air.

Having said that, I do want Links to try to beat Diddys and advance the Link metagame, but it's not as good as done yet: more developments need to occur before it can even *seem* like it's in Link's favor.

Pressing your advantage does not mean returning to neutral. Pressing your advantage means that once you have gotten a hit in or you have gotten your opponent in an unfavorable position, you try to continue doing damage (or less often but just as importantly take more stage control, which basically everyone can do). All that "winning neutral" means is that you have an easier time getting to the advantaged state and avoiding the disadvantaged state. If you stay in neutral all game long then you aren't pressing an advantage even if you win neutral by a ratio of 99:1. Another way to think about it is that you can't press an advantage if you aren't in the advantaged state.

Anyway, Link's landing a bomb on Diddy or landing a jab or really anything in Link's arsenal usually leads to a quick reset to neutral when the Diddy lands, because Link's mobility is not that great, and his attacks have generally decent knockback, so Diddy can just land on the stage or recover. When Diddy lands a hit on Link, however, the reverse isn't true. Link doesn't just quickly reset to neutral. Link is a fastfaller, which makes him susceptible to continued pressure and combos, and his grab is really bad, so grab resets are not easily applied.

Link does win neutral, but all that means is that Diddy has to approach Link through the bombs and arrows, and that Link has a pretty big sword for winning trades. Winning neutral isn't all there is to a matchup, though, especially in Diddy's case (because he's a high-reward character).

 

[Chuva]

You guys should really specify the stage when discussing the Diddy vs Link matchup, or Diddy vs any character for that matter. Diddy on Battlefield (and probably Lylat) is noticeable more dangerous in the neutral where he can use the platforms to abuse of his good aerials and air mobility. Smaller stage size also benefits his banana - dash grab game (harder to position against it).

 

[ChampKing]

How is ZSS doing? Didn't she get buffed in the patch. I never really see her being used.
Is Greninja bad now? It isn't being used much either.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i've started playing captain falcon recently, and i think just like pikachu, he's defintly a top 10 material character IMO. He deals massive damage, has great mix-ups, gets in your face really fast, lots of guaranteed combos from Dthrow, Nair, Dair, Uair, and even Bair if on platform stages like battlefield (Most of them, except Dthrow, combo into themselves), and improved edgeguarding and kill power (could be wrong on the "kill power" part, but i hadn't played brawl in years).

he feels really satisfying in smash 4. He's one of my three mains in smash 4, the other two being bowser and sonic. IMO, he's one of the only few where his offensive playstyle is very rewarding if played right. My biggest problem with him is that outside of campers giving him a hard time, his OOS options are lackluster. they're not bad, but not good compared to other characters.

 

[Chuva]

C. Falcon's probably biggest weakness is how vulnerable he is once he's in a bad spot, especially when trying to land. He doesn't have good answers against juggles, he is easy to string at early % because of his fall speed and size and his recovery is poor.

Since you mentioned you also main Sonic, you could compare them both: two strong rushdown characters that rely on their speed for approaches and mixups, difference being that Sonic can easily reset a situation that's not in his favor, whereas Falcon has to commit more.

 

[RanserSSF4]

C. Falcon's probably biggest weakness is how vulnerable he is once he's in a bad spot, especially when trying to land. He doesn't have good answers against juggles, he is easy to string at early % because of his fall speed and size and his recovery is poor.

Since you mentioned you also main Sonic, you could compare them both: two strong rushdown characters that rely on their speed for approaches and mixups, difference being that Sonic can easily reset a situation that's not in his favor, whereas Falcon has to commit more.

while you right about the comparison part, i do prefer captain falcon just slightly more than sonic, but they're both really good.

 

[NairWizard]

You guys should really specify the stage when discussing the Diddy vs Link matchup, or Diddy vs any character for that matter. Diddy on Battlefield (and probably Lylat) is noticeable more dangerous in the neutral where he can use the platforms to abuse of his good aerials and air mobility. Smaller stage size also benefits his banana - dash grab game (harder to position against it).

Stage selection tends to be a double-edged sword in most matchups. Link on Battlefield can also land more safely using the platforms, and Diddy has a harder time resetting on smaller stages where Link's low mobility doesn't matter as much in terms of following up (but his up-smash and up-tilt I believe can be used to hit through the lower two platforms).

i've started playing captain falcon recently, and i think just like pikachu, he's defintly a top 10 material character IMO. He deals massive damage, has great mix-ups, gets in your face really fast, lots of guaranteed combos from Dthrow, Nair, Dair, Uair, and even Bair if on platform stages like battlefield (Most of them, except Dthrow, combo into themselves), and improved edgeguarding and kill power (could be wrong on the "kill power" part, but i hadn't played brawl in years).

he feels really satisfying in smash 4. He's one of my three mains in smash 4, the other two being bowser and sonic. IMO, he's one of the only few where his offensive playstyle is very rewarding if played right. My biggest problem with him is that outside of campers giving him a hard time, his OOS options are lackluster. they're not bad, but not good compared to other characters.

I don't think that Falcon is top 10 or even close, really.

Falcon's problem is options. He's got his dash attack and his dash grab and keeps you guessing between the two, but he doesn't really have a solid approach other than that, and Falcon almost always must approach due to lack of a projectile and human size. You'll notice that all other offensive characters in the game either have an array of good approach options or a projectile, often both. Sheik has needles and a non-commit f-air in addition to her dash attack and spammable f-tilt. Pikachu has Quick Attack and Thunderjolt. Sonic has two variants of spindash. Diddy Kong has side-b, bananas, and peanuts. ZSS is probably the odd (wo)man out because she lacks a grab, but I don't think that ZSS is top 10 either.

So his neutral is OK but not great--speed is all he has (but not all he needs, as these other top-tier characters demonstrate). Aside from that... his recovery is linear, and he's a fastfaller so he gets comboed a ton. In advantage his u-air is really good and actually it can function as a decent approach on shield just because of how fast it is, but overall I don't see Falcon as a super good character in this game. Upper half of the cast? Probably. Top 10? Doubtful.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd say Falcon is fringe. As in, high tier and VERY close to being better but his flaws hold him back from being truly super great.

He's definitely a damn good character though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm gonna have an aneurysm if I see more of this bull**** about my favorite character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYAsiAZRGJg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIPcx6GJSho

Goddamnit people, please stop spreading lies and trying to say Mario is strong based on really bad gameplay. Clash Tournaments is ****ing disappointing.

Just ugh...who the hell believes Mario is good? Nyani isn't great, but I watch her struggle to guarantee combos that are longer than two hits, which is not acceptable for an extremely low damage character like Mario. And then against Vex's MK she gets gimped last stock because Mario is one of like 5 characters that actually has a really bad recovery. Like...I'm so mad that anyone dares to argue Mario is good, because this type of misinformation is probably going to get him nerfed until he's joke tier. Like SERIOUSLY, why else did Mario lose damage on his U-tilt in the recent patch? Because DI changes would magically make his combos overpowered?

For my sake, please recognize and communicate that Mario is currently bad. I want him to be good.

With that out of the way, on default settings, I primarily believe his main bad matchups are MARTH, Sheik, Diddy, Duck Hunt, and Falco. Marth legit 7/3s Mario if he plays right, the other ones I mentioned are 6/4s out of Mario's favor.

I honestly don't think Mario has a single favorable matchup right now without customs. Just mostly slightly unfavorable matchups. Nothing unwinnable except Marth really, and the main reason Marth is ******** is mostly just Marth's reward being a lot better than Mario's. Getting hit by Marth means you probably either will get juggled or edgeguarded to death, because without Cape Stalling, OH TOO BAD, YOU'RE FREE.

By the way, aside from Doc, I would readily argue that the biggest winners from DI changes are Luigi and Zelda. These characters actually have really scary tilt and throw combos...unlike Mario. So even though they didn't change much, the benefits they get from engine changes increasing the consistency of their massive reward is a very big deal. While Mario honestly still struggles to get really good reward unless the stars align and he gets a D-throw in at very specific percents.

Again, I'm just really angry about how misrepresented Mario is, and I really want him to get buffs so he WORKS and isn't gimmicky.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think you underrate Mario a bit too much, but I do agree he's on the lower end if the spectrum viability wise. I mean, yeah, nothing of his is truly guaranteed and he looks really bad on paper, but he just takes momentum and, with just a few small reads, turns a small advantage into a lot really easily, so I think he's one of those characters who looks pretty garbage on paper, but in actually use is pretty decent. Just decent in this game is actually kinda not too great, so I still think he pretty lackluster.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not trying to underrate Mario. Most of his matchups are not terrible except primarily the 5 I listed, with Marth specifically probably not being seriously winnable. With customs, Mario's bad matchups start to suck less, he gets a few more even matchups, maybe a few slightly favorable matchups (custom Mario is very strong against Yoshi by design). I won't try to deny that either.

I'm just generally really bitter. I'm very invested mentally and emotionally into the character, and since my time on Smashboards I've been trying to do everything in my limited ability and knowledge to improve Mario's representation, so nothing makes me angrier than the spread of misinformation that I have little control over because I'm no community pillar like CT ZeRo who gets massive publicity.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ah, I get you. Yeah, I really hope that when the Mewtwo DLC comes out the meta will have developed enough to show that Mario needs some love and they bring a couple more small balance tweaks to help out a few of the stragglers. Mario doesnt need much to be good, just needs a few small tweaks.

 

[ChampKing]

All tournaments right now are meh to be honest. Still no Mac and Pikachus that utilise their tools properly. Just Diddy, Sonic and Ness spamming grabs and throws.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That doesn't necessarily surprise me. I'm more accurately frustrated by masses of inexperienced players who don't know how to analyze matches, but still manage to make up character impressions that aren't supported by good observations.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You do realize that most of the balancing is most likely based off of the Japanese metagame, correct? They ain't going to care much outside of there.

Even if there is a twitter account where they are taking feedback, they ain't going to waste time clicking a link from there that leads to a massive wall of text about why X, Y, and Z need to be buffed.

 

[meleebrawler]

If they buffed Mario's damage as A2Z so often laments about,
they would also have to buff Doc's damage if they wanted
to preserve the "slower but stronger" Mario Doc is.

Also @A2Z, you claimed I was trying to make Mario
sound like a better character than he really was in an earlier
post, when all I did was bring up an impression of how he he seems
to get results in spite of his lacking damage output.
At no point did I say that this made him good, or that he
did that kind of strategy better than others.

Even so, it's important to not overlook the psychological impact
of being hit has. Nobody likes it, no matter how weak the hits are
(unless they have no hitstun at all), and they'll likely be frustrated
if they get hit when they think they have him.

Mario's mobility compared to Doc makes him better at staying
out of harm's way and pestering, whereas Doc's damage makes
him better at straightforward combat.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario IMO has it better.

His neutral is genuinely a lot scarier, VI being gone means his sketchy strings are a bit more reliable (espec. after D-Throw) meaning that once he gets in he racks up damage better due to shorter combos and strings that result in naturally more damage. The difficulty is GETTING IN if you can't outcamp the opponent with Doc but once that happens he has it pretty good I wager.

 

[Kofu]

One question I have, @ A2ZOMG , is how Mario's frame data is bad. You mentioned it was a few pages back, but from what I can tell his moves have generally quick startup and endlag. Obviously it's not a huge game-changer given his poor range and damage output but frame data doesn't appear to be one of his weaknesses. I'm no Mario expert and I'm certainly not experienced at analyzing frame data, so if you could elaborate on that point I would appreciate it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Dr. Mario IMO has it better.

His neutral is genuinely a lot scarier, VI being gone means his sketchy strings are a bit more reliable (espec. after D-Throw) meaning that once he gets in he racks up damage better due to shorter combos and strings that result in naturally more damage. The difficulty is GETTING IN if you can't outcamp the opponent with Doc but once that happens he has it pretty good I wager.

Gee, that last line sounds like Luigi (minus the outcamping part).

I also didn't say Mario was better than Doc, he just plays differently
due to his attributes favouring evasion and disruption over straight offence
like Doc. Whichever strategy proves more effective in the long run will
likely determine which one is higher in the tier list (and not by how they handle
top tiers like in Melee).

I will say, though, that sometimes having a less bouncy projectile is handy.

@ Kofu Indeed, the only move I feel could be faster is his Fireball.
Maybe it was balanced for the fast custom.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I know you didn't say anything, I was just stating what I thought to be....relevant to that discussion since Doc was brought up when it came to DI changes.

 

[meleebrawler]

I know you didn't say anything, I was just stating what I thought to be....relevant to that discussion since Doc was brought up when it came to DI changes.

Sorry. I just wish A2Z wouldn't get so ****sy when people try
to highlight things Mario can do. I understand he really likes
the character and wants to do well with him, but he won't do
better if he discourages people the way he does.
Let players try and mess things up with him and come up with
new strategies, is all I'm saying.

I also feel as if he's leaning too much on the possibility
of patch buffs for Mario. We'd all love that, but until then
everyone has to work with what they've got.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well figured I'd pop in here again and mention we'll be having an upvote/downvote tier list on /r/smashbros either later today or tomorrow. I'll put the results in here as it's really interesting to see who everyone thinks is amazing and all.

 

[BSP]

One question I have, @ A2ZOMG , is how Mario's frame data is bad. You mentioned it was a few pages back, but from what I can tell his moves have generally quick startup and endlag. Obviously it's not a huge game-changer given his poor range and damage output but frame data doesn't appear to be one of his weaknesses. I'm no Mario expert and I'm certainly not experienced at analyzing frame data, so if you could elaborate on that point I would appreciate it.

In general he is quick, but his main combo move, Utilt, can usually be Nair'd out of or people can jump out. If it had a bit less lag, it'd be more reliable but not broken because the move does 5% ( ; _ ; )

Uair links into itself pretty well...and only does 7%

ATM, Mario's gameplan is better executed by Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, and even Yoshi to an extent. You could throw Luigi in there too, since his damage didn't get gutted as hard. Maybe they made Mario's normals worse because he has a reflector or something.

Then there's the matter of killing when your good KO moves require hard reads, you're extremely susceptible to juggling, and your strings stop working and you're stuck with a rage boosted opponent.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

His frame data still isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination. Of all the weaknesses that are talked about when discussing Mario, poor frame data seems to be the most implausible by far.

 

[LiteralGrill]

THE THREAD IS UP!​

That right there is a seriously good place to post your impressions on characters. This is a great time to help educate the masses what characters you think are good/bad and why. Plus it never hurts to help someone learn about a character they aren't appreciating.

Let's see how this one turns out this month.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mario just needs less recovery on fireball and 2% more damage on utilt. Less recovery on dtilt for good measure.

 

[David Viran]

How is ZSS doing? Didn't she get buffed in the patch. I never really see her being used.
Is Greninja bad now? It isn't being used much either.

There is not many zss's who are placing in tournaments which I think is because she hard to use at a high level. I know I guy in Japan is doing well, I have yet to see Salem play, haven't seen dakpo in a tournament in a while and I heard delux just placed 3rd in a tournament yesterday. Officer Jenny looked pretty good. Well there's more people than I thought.

I don't really know about greninja though. I see him for glory pretty frequently.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm not sure what set A2Z off, but allow me to echo his words by saying Mario is pretty bad in this game.

I've said it a number of times before, but Mario has to work too hard to rack up damage, then has to work even harder to score a KO. A lot of this is because outside of Dashing Shield, Mario has no real way of approaching without placing himself in immediate danger. The best we have is Fireball > D-air Crossup > Retreating B-air, but this is immediately destroyed by good OOS options and in some cases pivot grabbing.

But it's not like Mario has no true combos (I keep wondering why people are saying this). Even at high percents, D-throw > Up-B works on the entire cast, which is why Explosive Punch is far and beyond Mario's best kill option. Against fast-fallers, at 0%, Mario can U-throw > U-Smash and that counts as a true combo. At any percent, Mario can use Grounded D-air (which has a fixed knockback), and he can connect D-Smash or U-Smash, which is his most reliable way of killing opponents.

By the way, Grounded D-air true combos into anything six frames or less. So this includes Jab, Grab, and every tilt.

I could go even further (Mario can even combo Shiek into oblivion at low percents), but I'd be straying off point. Mario's issue is not combos. In fact I would say he's one of the most impressive-looking combo characters in this game. The problem is this game is not about combos, it's about the neutral game. Combos are supplementary to this, meaning Mario's best quality is shadowed by the fact that everything else about him is very poor in comparison.

The best we have for spacing is B-air (which ironically is our most damaging aerial). Our anticamp tool is FLUDD shenanigans, and our GTFO moves are N-air and Up-B (OOS). With the exception of FLUDD, our tools are short in range, meaning they're often meaningless against characters that can outspace Mario, which happens to be the super majority of the cast. All characters really need to do against Mario is to play really safe against him, punish, and juggle him if possible (N-air is our only anti-juggle move and it has terrible kill power in comparison to Luigi's. Even regarding this, Mario still gets juggled by a good amount of the cast). Mario has to respect a lot of **** and the rest of the characters can just laugh off whatever he does.

So the things Mario has to go through in order to get the hit confirm doesn't match the reward he gets, because even if Mario does a 10 hit combo, chances are they're from U-air(7%), D-throw(5%) to Up-B (3% to 12%), or U-tilt(5%). These are all extremely crappy for damage. Mario would much prefer if B-air(11%) could be followed up, but there's no realistic way of doing this. I suppose this is balanced decently because B-air is our main edgeguarding tool.

In summary, Mario's issue is he has no way to make his opponent respect him and he just has to deal with it, and the bad damage output just doesn't match what he has to deal with during neutrals.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One question I have, @ A2ZOMG , is how Mario's frame data is bad. You mentioned it was a few pages back, but from what I can tell his moves have generally quick startup and endlag. Obviously it's not a huge game-changer given his poor range and damage output but frame data doesn't appear to be one of his weaknesses. I'm no Mario expert and I'm certainly not experienced at analyzing frame data, so if you could elaborate on that point I would appreciate it.

You are putting words in my mouth.. Mario's frame data is one of his strong points.

What I'm arguing is he needs frame data buffs. So that his stuff actually works in a way that is unique. Mario's combos should be frame tight, but they aren't. Mario probably is one of few characters that legitimately would not break the game with a consistent air to ground blockstring that can't be shieldgrabbed. Is it really unreasonable for me to want these things?

He can still have crappy damage per hit if he doesn't have to work hard for the first 50-60% But realistically that's not how things work.

Character changes should be focused on emphasizing unique qualities when possible, hence why a lot of my complaints revolve around Mario's frame data. It's one of his strong points, but it doesn't actually accomplish much right now.

Sorry. I just wish A2Z wouldn't get so ****sy when people try
to highlight things Mario can do. I understand he really likes
the character and wants to do well with him, but he won't do
better if he discourages people the way he does.
Let players try and mess things up with him and come up with
new strategies, is all I'm saying.

I also feel as if he's leaning too much on the possibility
of patch buffs for Mario. We'd all love that, but until then
everyone has to work with what they've got.

Y'know, I don't think you have any idea how much I've forwarded his meta.

 

[Chuva]

I don't see a reason to pick Mario over Doc other than FLUDD in certain matchups.

If you're going to pick a character that struggles to hit confirm, at least pick one that gets properly rewarded.