Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

@ Luco : "B&B"? x) But yes, you are correct regarding Peach Bomber used as a mix-up. Peach enjoys floating to get near her opponent, meaning an approach on the ground with a Peach Bomber can really surprise them. Also, a lot of combos created by @Dark.Pch involve this move as a finisher.

Ahh yeah, B&B move = bread & butter move =P

 

[Yonder]

If you don't have an understanding of a character, any valuable information to give or even use them, I feel like you really shouldn't be giving your opinion on them.. But that's just me.

Well said. Literally the only character I can give legit input in is Luigi. Other than that....I'm basically stupid on everyone. I can debate forever why I think Luigi is a mid-lower mid and not low tier, but would have a terrible time trying to defend why I think Doc and Olimar are the worst two in the game Other than saying "Inferior/ slow as hell Mario with weaker combos" and "messed up Pikmin ai and nerfed in general"

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well said. Literally the only character I can give legit input in is Luigi. Other than that....I'm basically stupid on everyone. I can debate forever why I think Luigi is a mid-lower mid and not low tier, but would have a terrible time trying to defend why I think Doc and Olimar are the worst two in the game Other than saying "Inferior/ slow as hell Mario with weaker combos" and "messed up Pikmin ai and nerfed in general"

Fine. I guess we'll talk about this **** in a vacuum where nobody plays the game outside of their own characters.

Ready, guys? I'm sure we're gonna get some lively discussion outta this!

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

An impression does not need to be accurate, its what you think so far. There is a level of hope and expectation that early impressions are wrong anyways.

 

[Luco]

If anything, the constant posting that a particular method of discussion is ruining the meta is disrupting the conversation more than the act of talking about the top tiers themselves.

Not saying steering the discussion away from those top tiers is a bad thing, but I re-iterate my old point of doing it more subtly.

*hugz*

 

[KenMeister]

Well said. Literally the only character I can give legit input in is Luigi. Other than that....I'm basically stupid on everyone. I can debate forever why I think Luigi is a mid-lower mid and not low tier, but would have a terrible time trying to defend why I think Doc and Olimar are the worst two in the game Other than saying "Inferior/ slow as hell Mario with weaker combos" and "messed up Pikmin ai and nerfed in general"

At least Doc has better traction, and doesn't get pushed back when he's hit in his shield. There's also his good SHFF, which is another thing Luigi doesn't have. lol

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Okay, I hesitate to bring up this specific character yet again but it is relevant.

According to a Wii U loading screen tip as reported by @icraq, Luma can no longer attack while Rosalina is being grabbed. Instead, it will "dance around frantically and can't be controlled."

@Conda, that should neatly address one of your issues with her, if memory serves.

EDIT: I forgot the balance patch thread exists and will be mentioning this there as well.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Holy Hanna-Barbera, that's a huge nerf if that's true.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's important to note the distinction between "Luma attacking while Rosalina is grabbed" and "Luma retaliating right after Rosalina is thrown." As far as I know, the latter is still possible pending possible nerfs to Luma control in hitstun, so followups may still be a tricky thing.

But yes, definitely a nerf.

 

[ChikoLad]

And it's a stupid one.

Extending the Luma respawn timer is fine. It means it takes a bit more smart play and skill for Rosalina & Luma to be rewarding, but also rewards her opponents more for taking out Luma.

Disabling Luma's attacks while grabbed is just taking away one of Rosalina's fundamental, unique characteristics altogether. Especially since the 3DS version has drilled the opposite into my head with it's tips - "Luma can attack even when Rosalina is unable to move".

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Being able to get out of grabs for basically free, or even punishing the opponent for successfully grabbing you is pretty stupid. Definitely something that needed to be changed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Being able to get out of grabs for basically free, or even punishing the opponent for successfully grabbing you is pretty stupid. Definitely something that needed to be changed.

If being able to control a "minion" [or whatever you wanna label it] gives Rosalina the ability to break out of grabs then that's a fundamental aspect of her character design. Nerfing her is premature and if a nerf is actually needed then it'd be better to look somewhere else, rather than changing something that makes her ... her.

 

[ChikoLad]

Being able to get out of grabs for basically free, or even punishing the opponent for successfully grabbing you is pretty stupid. Definitely something that needed to be changed.

Except I can name four counters to this strength already:

-Separating the two. Luma cannot hit a grabbed Rosalina if Luma was away from Rosalina already (such as dodging a Luma Shot and punishing Rosalina with a grab)
-Swinging Rosalina into Luma (which could potentially KO Luma)
-Pummeling or throwing Rosalina immediately. This causes Luma to ONLY be able to use F-Air, and I've rarely been able to hit people with Luma when that happens, as the move has terrible range.
-If Rosalina is shielding and if you really feel you cannot do anything to Rosalina from your grab while Luma is nearby, then simply attack through her shield. You may at least hit Luma and get rid of him (this tactic becomes more viable post-patch too, as Ro

Also, Ice Climbers had the exact same mechanic, except even worse:

-Nana has better range than Luma
-You could actually potentially grab Nana by accident, especially if the two were not perfectly together. Meaning the directly player controlled Popo could do whatever he wanted. Luma on the other hand, cannot be grabbed, meaning you don't have to worry about that with Rosalina.

 

[Z'zgashi]

It's important to note the distinction between "Luma attacking while Rosalina is grabbed" and "Luma retaliating right after Rosalina is thrown." As far as I know, the latter is still possible pending possible nerfs to Luma control in hitstun, so followups may still be a tricky thing.

But yes, definitely a nerf.

And with one swift blow, Rosy is doomed to the bowels of mid tier.

 

[ChikoLad]

And with one swift blow, Rosy is doomed to the bowels of mid tier.

I wouldn't go that far as it's only one of her many strengths (just don't let yourself get grabbed now I guess). I'm more annoyed about it because of the principle of the matter - far too early to be removing obvious, unique things from characters, especially when the game itself has been explaining that we can attack with Luma while grabbed up to this point.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And with one swift blow, Rosy is doomed to the bowels of mid tier.

I honestly doubt this will make her mid tier by itself.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

especially when the game itself has been explaining that we can attack with Luma while grabbed up to this point.

I'm really tired of hearing this. The game developer himself said that he would be patching the game on numerous occasions. Everything is subject to change.

I don't mind the pissing and moaning about the change itself, but please stop using what's currently in the game as a justification for your argument.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If being able to control a "minion" [or whatever you wanna label it] gives Rosalina the ability to break out of grabs then that's a fundamental aspect of her character design. Nerfing her is premature and if a nerf is actually needed then it'd be better to look somewhere else, rather than changing something that makes her ... her.

Let me rephrase that:

I don't think they should be doing nerfs of any type right now. Far too soon, should wait at least a year before touching things beyond glitches.

However, they're already decided that's not the case, so that's not an option. If they ARE going to go around nerfing things already, something like that would be on my list. If patches had been a thing in Melee/Brawl, I would have removed that from the ICs as well. Grabs are pretty important to fighting games, you shouldn't be able to punish the opponent if they land one on you, plan and simple.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm really tired of hearing this. The game developer himself said that he would be patching the game on numerous occasions. Everything is subject to change.

Smooth Criminal

"Everything being subject to change" =/= "We should never express opinions opposed to change".

The only patches that are warranted right now are actual glitch fixes. We are getting some of that in this next patch, but there was no fair reason to change a unique trait about Rosalina that was by no means broken (since it could be easily countered if you knew how).

 

[The Real Gamer]

I wasn't expecting characters to get significant nerfs this early in the metagame...

Part of me is excited because I feel as though these nerfs were warranted in Rosaluma's case.

But another part of me is worried if this is the beginning of a "slippery slope" where the developers will continue nerfing the "next most broken thing."

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Easily countered?" Y'know, not all Rosalinas subscribe to the whole "I'M GONNA USE LUMA SHOT" schtick. There's a reason why good Rosalinas keep the Luma close to them most of the time. Also, not all throws can hit the Luma accurately, and then there's the fact that you can be punished right after you throw Rosalina because the Luma is somewhere close at hand.

Just to play the other side of the coin, btw. Personally I never had a problem with the character, mainly because I haven't faced a good one more than likely, but I have a few ideas to work around that stupid ****. It's a strange thing to nerf so soon, I agree, but it's there.

And I never said that bemoaning the change itself is a bad thing. I'm all for productive discussion. Saying the game has drilled it into your head continuously, however, is not part of that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChikoLad]

I wasn't expecting characters to get significant nerfs this early in the metagame...

Part of me is excited because I feel as though these nerfs were warranted in Rosaluma's case.

But another part of me is worried if this is the beginning of a "slippery slope" where the developers will continue nerfing the "next most broken thing."

Basically my biggest worry.

Crying about how Rosalina is broken is currently the popular thing (before that, it was Little Mac. And before that, Bowser). Regardless of how valid and thought out those views are, the developers probably will assume the claims have merit, and will act on them.

Whenever people stop crying about Rosalina (and going by the complaining I've seen, that won't happen until the character slot's name is changed to "Rosalina"), they will find someone else to complain about, and then they will be nerfed until people are satisfied.

If Rosalina was still widely considered broken for a very common reason a year from now, I would say big change like this might be warranted. Doing so this early is only going to be promote an unhealthy attitude for the meta in the long run.

"Easily countered?" Y'know, not all Rosalinas subscribe to the whole "I'M GONNA USE LUMA SHOT" schtick. There's a reason why good Rosalinas keep the Luma close to them most of the time. Also, not all throws can hit the Luma accurately, and then there's the fact that you can be punished right after you throw Rosalina because the Luma is somewhere close at hand.

Just to play the other side of the coin, btw. Personally I never had a problem with the character, mainly because I haven't faced a good one more than likely, but I have a few ideas to work around that stupid ****.

And I never said that bemoaning the change itself is a bad thing. I'm all for productive discussion. Saying the game has drilled it into your head continuously, however, is not part of that.

Smooth Criminal

I was giving "dodging a Luma Shot and grabbing her then" as an easy example of a situation that would separate the two. You're forgetting that Rosalina's opponents can separate her Luma by themselves too.

And I do think the game drilling it in directly is a good reason, because the Tips don't describe super advanced techniques or anything, they describe the fundamentals of the characters, their obviously unique and basic traits. I'm basically saying "anything within the Tips should not be changed this early in the game", for that reason.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Basically my biggest worry.

Crying about how Rosalina is broken is currently the popular thing (before that, it was Little Mac. And before that, Bowser). Regardless of how valid and thought out those views are, the developers probably will assume the claims have merit, and will act on them.

Have you seen Sakurai's latest interview thing? He says Little Mac has the lowest win rate of all characters online, but he's still not going to buff him because he knows a lot of the losses are from people who don't know how to use him properly. He clearly has some idea of what's going on and knows how to interpret data (or has people to interpret data for him), so I wouldn't be doom and gloom.

EDIT: Also, for all we know Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is being grabbed may not have been intended, it's possible the grabbed state is distinct from the hitstun or shield break state and someone forgot to set the "controlLuma=false" flag. Pure speculation but food for thought. (Unless that tip explicitly mentioned grabs in which case never mind.)

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I wouldn't even mind Little Mac being improved a little, especially when the Wii U version comes out and more "Prism Tower"-like stages will probably be a part of the legal options.

(just don't let yourself get grabbed now I guess).

No one should let themselves get grabbed. The point is that is what your opponent should want.

Having a character that demands more set-up to perform a fundamental punish just endorses campy/defensive play and no one wants to play against that and people are already complaining about watching Rosalina; only the Rosa mains aren't complaining about balance and boredom because they are the only ones not facing the match-up dilemma. A player getting hit when they have successfully gotten a hold of you teeters on the edge of poor game design. And the fact that this character has so many strengths, which you acknowledge, makes this a bit harder to tolerate.

 

[ChikoLad]

Have you seen Sakurai's latest interview thing? He says Little Mac has the lowest win rate of all characters online, but he's still not going to buff him because he knows a lot of the losses are from people who don't know how to use him properly. He clearly has some idea of what's going on and knows how to interpret data (or has people to interpret data for him), so I wouldn't be doom and gloom.

EDIT: Also, for all we know Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is being grabbed may not have been intended, it's possible the grabbed state is distinct from the hitstun or shield break state and someone forgot to set the "controlLuma=false" flag. Pure speculation but food for thought.

That's a MUCH more obvious situation though. Little Mac's Side B off stage ALL OF THE TIME in For Glory. A lot of them have outright just given up (more than players of any other character I have encountered).

Also, Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is grabbed is definitely intentional. As I said before, a 3DS tip states, word for word, that "Luma can attack even when Rosalina cannot move". Rosalina cannot move while being grabbed.

No one should let themselves get grabbed. The point is that is what your opponent should want.

Having a character that demands more set-up to perform a fundamental punish just endorses campy/defensive play and no one wants to play against that and people are already complaining about watching Rosalina; only the Rosa mains aren't complaining about balance and boredom because they are the only ones not facing the match-up dilemma. A player getting hit when they have successfully gotten a hold of you teeters on the edge of poor game design. And the fact that this character has so many strengths, which you acknowledge, makes this a bit harder to tolerate.

So how about we remove Little Mac's super armour then (or greatly nerf the range of attacks it can absorb)?

 

[The Real Gamer]

So how about we remove Little Mac's super armour then (or greatly nerf the range of attacks it can absorb)?

I'd personally be okay with Little Mac not having super armor on his Forward Smash anymore...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is grabbed is definitely intentional. As I said before, a 3DS tip states, word for word, that "Luma can attack even when Rosalina cannot move". Rosalina cannot move while being grabbed.

That's the thing though, they didn't explicitly mention grabs. Again, speculating, but it's possible that the programmers simply overlooked the grab state. It also makes sense from a design perspective that Luma should be unable to intervene, since the grab doesn't truly complete until Rosalina is thrown or she breaks free. Diving into armchair psychology, if the developers also thought of the grab in that way it's possible they simply wouldn't have considered such a situation. (Programmers are often the worst possible people you can choose to test a program since they already know how it's supposed to work and thus have a hard time coming up with odd edge cases.)

In other words, "cannot move" may or may not be developer shorthand for "hitstun/helpless/stunned/paralyzed" and may or may not include "you are currently grabbed" as they use the term. (EDIT: Another consideration. When in hitstun, etc. your inputs do exactly nothing other than maybe directing your fall. When you're grabbed, your inputs do have an effect, namely helping you break free sooner. That may be an important distinction.)

I'll reiterate for the sake of clarity, this is speculation and I doubt we'll ever know for certain.

 

[Baskerville]

I'll be honest, both of the changes she got are actually rather fair to the rest of the cast. Nobody should really be punished for getting a grab on her, and like Smooth said, a lot of throws in this game don't even hit Luma so you'll still have time to attack after the throw is initiated.

I'd personally be okay with Little Mac not having super armor on his Forward Smash anymore...

I second this.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd personally be okay with Little Mac not having super armor on his Forward Smash anymore...

It's beyond me why people describe Luma being able to attack while Rosalina can't move is cheesy and broken, yet Little Mac being able to shrug off even slow, powerful moves by doing something that should result in him being punished (*coughthesamelogicbeingusedagainstRosalinacough*) is completely OK. But it's actually even less justified with him, as it gives him a double addition to his KO meter, which grants him quicker access to a shield breaking OHKO move. And he already is really quick and small anyway, and has a great dodge, so he can avoid slow, powerful attacks just fine.

Mind you, I personally don't think Little Mac needs a nerf like that. But when I once did, I was provided with, in a nutshell, the counter of "work around that, there are counters" (@ Smooth Criminal ). And that is a fair point. So I provide the same counter here with Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is immobile - work around it. There are ways. Just like you should work around Sonic's speed, Bowser's weight, etc. I say this as a main of Rosalina. I am giving you advice in how to beat me.

That's the thing though, they didn't explicitly mention grabs. Again, speculating, but it's possible that the programmers simply overlooked the grab state. It also makes sense from a design perspective that Luma should be unable to intervene, since the grab doesn't truly complete until Rosalina is thrown or she breaks free. Diving into armchair psychology, if the developers also thought of the grab in that way it's possible they simply wouldn't have considered such a situation. (Programmers are often the worst possible people you can choose to test a program since they already know how it's supposed to work and thus have a hard time coming up with odd edge cases.)

In other words, "cannot move" may or may not be developer shorthand for "hitstun/helpless/stunned/paralyzed" and may or may not include "you are currently grabbed" as they use the term. (EDIT: Another consideration. When in hitstun, etc. your inputs do exactly nothing other than maybe directing your fall. When you're grabbed, your inputs do have an effect, namely helping you break free sooner. That may be an important distinction.)

I'll reiterate for the sake of clarity, this is speculation and I doubt we'll ever know for certain.

I'm taking it as intentional because, again, Rosalina being grabbed fits under the definition of "being unable to move", and I'm sure the programmers would have had to have approved some of these tips anyway.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

So how about we remove Little Mac's super armour then (or greatly nerf the range of attacks it can absorb)?

Don't even try to compare Little Mac of all characters to Rosalina. The weaknesses of the former gives huge leeway to his strengths unlike, as I mentioned in the very post you quoted, Rosalina moreso just has buckets of strengths. Comparisons need to be made with proper respect to their context. Especially since Little Mac's gift can be countered by grabs, something everyone universally can do, whereas confirming a safe punish on Rosalina is not something equally as simple with the entire roster (and in all scenarios).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm taking it as intentional because, again, Rosalina being grabbed fits under the definition of "being unable to move", and I'm sure the programmers would have had to have approved some of these tips anyway.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one then.

 

[NairWizard]

Basically my biggest worry.

Crying about how Rosalina is broken is currently the popular thing (before that, it was Little Mac. And before that, Bowser). Regardless of how valid and thought out those views are, the developers probably will assume the claims have merit, and will act on them.

Whenever people stop crying about Rosalina (and going by the complaining I've seen, that won't happen until the character slot's name is changed to "Rosalina"), they will find someone else to complain about, and then they will be nerfed until people are satisfied.

Why would Sakurai's team care much about what the (extremely small, relative to the market of this game) smashboards community is crying about? The devs don't believe everything that they read on the interwebs. The reality is that they've had more than two months to balance-test this game between the 3DS release and the Wii U release. They know more about their game than we do at this point. The nerf to Rosalina is a judgment call based on their observations while balance-testing.

The only reason that you're complaining about this balance patch is because it happened after the 3DS release and thus you know about it. Do you know how many "balance patches" happened *before* the game's release? I bet tons of characters got buffs and nerfs over the course of development. It's a natural part of game development.

--

Topic: I believe that with this change Diddy Kong is the best character in the game. Why? Because Rosalina was his worst matchup (Sheik is closer to 50:50 than anything). The Luma respawn nerf was significant (62.5% extra Luma timeout gives Diddy a lot of breathing room), but this new change probably swings the matchup in his favor or at the least makes it even. His biggest problem vs. Rosalina was being unable to grab her or command grab her (with monkey flip and dashgrab weakened as options, Diddy is a pretty poor character). Now that he can suddenly do *both* without worrying about Luma, Diddy has no trouble getting in on Rosalina and harassing her tall character. It used to be one of the game's worst matchups.

Nerfs to Diddy may be imminent, though. Wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf to his d-throw, but I'm OK with that.

 

[ChikoLad]

Don't even try to compare Little Mac of all characters to Rosalina. The weaknesses of the former gives huge leeway to his strengths unlike, as I mentioned in the very post you quoted, Rosalina moreso just has buckets of strengths. Comparisons need to be made with proper respect to their context. Especially since Little Mac's gift can be countered by grabs, something everyone universally can do, whereas confirming a grab on Rosalina is not something equally as simple with the entire roster.

Read my last posts. Every character has some sort of counter to Luma being able to attack when she is grabbed.

And Rosalina is super tall/a huge target, and is the fourth lightest character in the game. That's a Melee Mewtwo level weakness. Except that stuff like Luma and what he can do is there to offset it. Just like Mac being obnoxiously forgiving on the ground is there to offset him being obnoxiously terrible in the air.

Why would Sakurai's team care much about what the (extremely small, relative to the market of this game) smashboards community is crying about? The devs don't believe everything that they read on the interwebs. The reality is that they've had more than two months to balance-test this game between the 3DS release and the Wii U release. They know more about their game than we do at this point. The nerf to Rosalina is a judgment call based on their observations while balance-testing.

And at what point did I say anything about this being people on Smashboards? I mean yeah, they fit under the category, but I never said them exclusively.

People everywhere have been asking for these exact Rosalina nerfs, so I doubt this is a coincidence. You can disagree, that's fine, but there is conclusive proof that that developers made these changes of their own accord and with not a hint of outside influence.

Also please stop putting words down my throat. I don't have a problem with this patch because it's coming after release. And I don't have a problem with the patch by principle, since it fixes bugs. I also don't have a problem with the Luma timer extenstion (it's still a little to early for any non-bug fix patching, but I actually think it's a beneficial thing change for the meta overall and don't mind it for that reason).

I have a problem with them removing a fair, unique mechanic from a character this early in the game. Removing it before release would also be too early (if it wasn't in the final game, but I found out she could do it through an interview with Sakurai, I'd be wishing it was included).

 

[Jahordon]

Have you seen Sakurai's latest interview thing? He says Little Mac has the lowest win rate of all characters online, but he's still not going to buff him because he knows a lot of the losses are from people who don't know how to use him properly. He clearly has some idea of what's going on and knows how to interpret data (or has people to interpret data for him), so I wouldn't be doom and gloom.

EDIT: Also, for all we know Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is being grabbed may not have been intended, it's possible the grabbed state is distinct from the hitstun or shield break state and someone forgot to set the "controlLuma=false" flag. Pure speculation but food for thought. (Unless that tip explicitly mentioned grabs in which case never mind.)

This is very reassuring. It could be disastrous of he was buffing and nerfing characters based on their online winrate, because how well characters are played by the general masses doesn't indicate how good they truly are.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

It's the right thing.
Luma attacking in other situations is fine.
Grabs are a fundamental part of the RPS.
We don't need less offense to be honest.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Now maybe the next patch can nerf Diddy so that his Dthrow doesn't lead into an entire encyclopedia of moves, and so that he can't beat everything under the sun with Monkey Flip Kick.

And then the next patch can calm Sheik down with her Needles and give her Bouncing Fish at least some semblance of a weakness.

And the next one can reduce Lucario's aura buffs and Peach's crazy Turnip shenanigans.

Then the one after that can give Yoshi his inability to jump out of shield as compensation for having a non-shieldpokeable shield, which was the entire reason he had the Egg shield in the first place.

And...

 

[ChikoLad]

Also let it also be known that Rosalina's reveal trailer demonstrated this:

They are removing an ADVERTISED feature/selling point of the character.

Everyone also had ample time to at least THINK about ways to counter the technique.

 

[Mr. Johan]

To be fair, Cargo Hold is after DK's standard grab animation. If DK decided to go for Cargo Hold when he had three other throws to choose from, that's on DK.

 

[ChikoLad]

To be fair, Cargo Hold is after DK's standard grab animation. If DK decided to go for Cargo Hold when he had three other throws to choose from, that's on DK.

Same applies to getting hit out of your grab at all though. It's on you.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also let it also be known that Rosalina's reveal trailer demonstrated this:

They are removing an ADVERTISED feature/selling point of the character.

Everyone also had ample time to at least THINK about ways to counter the technique.

Still doesn't tie them to it. See: GTA5 and Heists. You can advertise something and then take it away later, or take forfreakingever to add it to the game.