Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Xeze]

I think Mario is between sixth and ninth best in the game. The only ones I could see being overall better characters than him are



and I'm really not sure about Fox, Diddy or MK.

I would swap MK for Pikachu there. But I agree, Mario isn't top 5 by any means. He is good but the mentioned characters above have something in their toolkit that gives them an edge over the competition, which Mario lacks. Top 10? Yes, based on MU spread and results. As the meta progresses he might drop to top 15, MAYBE. There are still some characters with hidden potential that might surpass him, like Peach. For now Top 10 is a good spot, somewhere around 7-9.

 

[Rizen]

I think Mario's versatility counts for something. While he's not as good as other top tiers at a single thing, he is very adaptable. He has fireballs that fall with gravity for zoning, a reflector/gimp cape, good OoS with frame 3 invincible upB, FLUDD (which seems okay but not great to me), all with good mobility and frame data. He can do well in almost any given category.
I'm not saying he's top tier but his attributes and tools easily make him a high tier.

 

[wedl!!]

Semi-related: I'm really tempted to remake my Peach MU chart but make every -1 except like Diddy ZSS Villager and MM even because the "minute disadvantages which are essentially even and 100% very winnable" I'm starting to realize are even.

Also it looks kind of dumb for a top 20 character to have like 15 "bad" matchups.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I think Mario's versatility counts for something. While he's not as good as other top tiers at a single thing, he is very adaptable. He has fireballs that fall with gravity for zoning, a reflector/gimp cape, good OoS with frame 3 invincible upB, FLUDD (which seems okay but not great to me), all with good mobility and frame data. He can do well in almost any given category.
I'm not saying he's top tier but his attributes and tools easily make him a high tier.

Absolutely. It's just that I don't think it's enough to justify him being a Top 5 character results not withstanding. But to say he's not Top 10 at this point is rather asinine.

 

[Deleted member]

On the subject of Dedede:

What relevant MUs is he even good in? I've been told before that he's not that awful against Rosa (which is hilarious). I've been told he's not that bad against Sonic (also hilarious). The only relevant character I can think of that he does semi-well against is Peach and even then that's not good for him.

He doesn't really beat anybody outside of low/bottom tiers. Whoever told you he doesn't do that bad against Sonic is hilarious indeed, it's the matchup where he's definitively at a lopsided disadvantage next to . I'd even consider both MUs near unwinnable.

But to go your point, he really doesn't beat any real relevant characters in the meta right now. At one point I swore that he went even or at least was -1 against , then after the match between Big D and ZeRo this weekend I realized how ugly that MU really is despite Sheik's killing problems in it. Otherwise she just shuts down most of D3's approach (like he has one, lol) and ledge options so hard. That and we all know she's an absolute combo monster and Dedede's the easiest character in the game to combo.

EDIT: Wait, what? This was three pages earlier? I had this saved, guess I was super late lol

 

[Daisy101]

I recall Mario still an amazing choice for starters and has a good play/mobility movements. He can still giving tough matchup against the top 10 at least from what i do see.

 

[Byxis]

You know, I would've thought that by now, it was common knowledge that ROB's Nair was amazing. But I guess not to a select few group of people who missed the memo.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

You know, I would've thought that by now, it was common knowledge that ROB's Nair was amazing. But I guess not to a select few group of people who missed the memo.

Especially if your name is Larry. Don't be livin' like him.

 

[Y2Kay]

ROB has bad landing options, but Nair is a good landing option? I'm confused.

Also, let's stop rippin' into Larry about his ROB post and move on.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Since everyone is talking about things that were discussed many pages ago, let's discuss that why M2 is at the top of B tier in a Japanese tier list. What are the Japanese doing with M2 that we are not?

I can't get the link lol just look it up on reddit.

 

[Deleted member]

Since everyone is talking about things that were discussed many pages ago, let's discuss that why M2 is at the top of B tier in a Japanese tier list. What are the Japanese doing with M2 that we are not?

I can't get the link lol just look it up on reddit.

I got you, fam.

is ranked worst character in the game, as third worst and is in B tier. is in A tier.... really interesting to say the least. Goes to show how differently Japan views and plays the game than we do.

 

[Byxis]

Since everyone is talking about things that were discussed many pages ago, let's discuss that why M2 is at the top of B tier in a Japanese tier list. What are the Japanese doing with M2 that we are not?

I can't get the link lol just look it up on reddit.

The Japanese scene just values more characters than we do. Like Wario/Pit/Greninja. If people can succeed with those characters in Japanese tournies then that just makes me believe even more that there's different ways to bring out a character and get good results with them that may not be the norm.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't no what kind of dank loud they where smoking when they made this tier list. Greninja worse than DDD? Lol.
That Mewtwo placement is totally good tho. I'm not biased or anything. I didn't like......name myself after him...or add a picture of him to the end of every post.......

Oh Wait.

 

[Radical Larry]

wedl!! Sadly I don't play For Glory as much anymore; in fact, it's a fleeting afterthought now. I go against actual good players and I've fought great ROBs who didn't use their N-Air and used much better options. His N-Air is not the best option out of any single N-Air and I've used data to back up my claims, furthermore I used personal experience against ROBs; I just haven't seen the first ROB use a successful N-Air on me.

The attack acts like Charizard's, yes, and it's a great edge-guarding tool, but that's what makes it decent, as an edge-guarding tool or an edge-guard setup or gimping tool. Being a combo setup attack isn't what it's really meant to be honestly.

But how about this; it's the worst N-Air to use as a mix-up attack because of its 18 frames startup. Yeah it has disjoint, but remember that there are characters that outrange him or just dodge the attack overall.

I don't see the hype of the attack.

 

[Byxis]

wedl!! Sadly I don't play For Glory as much anymore; in fact, it's a fleeting afterthought now. I go against actual good players and I've fought great ROBs who didn't use their N-Air and used much better options. His N-Air is not the best option out of any single N-Air and I've used data to back up my claims, furthermore I used personal experience against ROBs; I just haven't seen the first ROB use a successful N-Air on me.

The attack acts like Charizard's, yes, and it's a great edge-guarding tool, but that's what makes it decent, as an edge-guarding tool or an edge-guard setup or gimping tool. Being a combo setup attack isn't what it's really meant to be honestly.

But how about this; it's the worst N-Air to use as a mix-up attack because of its 18 frames startup. Yeah it has disjoint, but remember that there are characters that outrange him or just dodge the attack overall.

I don't see the hype of the attack.

Not sure how the ROB's you played failed to use his best aerial in the neutral but they must be pretty good. Obviously. And FYI, any actually decent ROB main will tell you that you start to prep the Nair so its already out when you need it. The 18 frame start up is honestly not as awful as you seem to think it is.

 

[Jams.]

He doesn't really beat anybody outside of low/bottom tiers. Whoever told you he doesn't do that bad against Sonic is hilarious indeed, it's the matchup where he's definitively at a lopsided disadvantage next to . I'd even consider both MUs near unwinnable.

But to go your point, he really doesn't beat any real relevant characters in the meta right now. At one point I swore that he went even or at least was -1 against , then after the match between Big D and ZeRo this weekend I realized how ugly that MU really is despite Sheik's killing problems in it. Otherwise she just shuts down most of D3's approach (like he has one, lol) and ledge options so hard. That and we all know she's an absolute combo monster and Dedede's the easiest character in the game to combo.

EDIT: Wait, what? This was three pages earlier? I had this saved, guess I was super late lol

Honestly, ZeRo versus Big D has to be taken with a grain of salt IMO. ZeRo was the best player at that tournament by far. If Big D and Cacogen have ever played, that would likely be a better representation of that matchup at a high level without an obvious skill difference. Of course, he chose to pick Mario into Alphicans' Sheik and Bowser into Focus' Sheik rather than use DDD, which says something about the MU as well.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

RIP hope of moving on from topics on past pages

 

[Locke 06]

Honestly, ZeRo versus Big D has to be taken with a grain of salt IMO. ZeRo was the best player at that tournament by far. If Big D and Cacogen have ever played, that would likely be a better representation of that matchup at a high level without an obvious skill difference. Of course, he chose to pick Mario into Alphicans' Sheik and Bowser into Focus' Sheik rather than use DDD, which says something about the MU as well.

Big D beats Focus. On the car ride down, apparently, Focus dared him to go Bowser. So he did and destroyed him.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, people thinking R.O.B's NAir is terrible are kind of odd; both him and Charizard have very similar NAirs, and nobody really says that 'Zard's NAir is terrible; in fact, NAir is one of 'Zard's best aerials in neutral. They're used almost identically, too; so R.O.B's NAir is pretty great at accompanying his moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

Since everyone is talking about things that were discussed many pages ago, let's discuss that why M2 is at the top of B tier in a Japanese tier list. What are the Japanese doing with M2 that we are not?

I can't get the link lol just look it up on reddit.

Something, which is more than most people here do, which is nothing except b**** about his weight.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

One thing on ROB's nair that may or may not have been mentioned - it absolutely is viable as a combo starter. Correctly spaced, nair follows up into uair (particularly at low percents) placing you into a juggle situation. ROB can keep you in the air for a pretty dang long time if he correctly reads your DI and air dodges after that first uair.

It might be a little unorthodox compared to the standard nair, but I firmly believe any ROB player not using the move to some extent is limiting themselves. I mean, you can't really look at the move in a vacuum, that's not how these things work.

D3's nair is also fairly decent, maybe even "good" when you take it out of context, but it's uses are limited because of how D3 is. He's slow, heavy, and easy to hit, and the nair really doesn't cover enough distance beyond his hurtbox to prevent people from trading with or outright beating him in the air. ROB's nair also covers a greater range than D3's nair and makes it more difficult to try and hit him out of it, while also having better air mobility than D3. You can't exactly cross someone up with D3's aerials, but it's some what feasible with ROB for example.

On D3 versus Sheik- it will continue being a bad match-up as long as Needles can put people into a tumble state. What's stopping Sheik from laming D3 or any other fatty out with Needles? They are an amazing projectile that many characters will kill for, and they're on the character with some of the best mobility, CQC, and frame data in the game. The Deeds/low tier character of choice would still likely struggle with her if needles were lessened as a factor, but she would at least be more manageable for them.

 

[C0rvus]

He ends up low on the US top player tier lists because despite his strong results elsewhere he still has no presence in the US. It speaks volumes that Dabuz and ESAM are happy to rank him around 30-35th when Abadango just ranked him 21st (link http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-12/).

Does anyone have a translation of this? Would love to see why Aba placed Mr. Game and Watch where he did.

And he and many other top players seem to at least think Robin isn't totally irrelevant. That's nice.

 

[Apeirohaon]

Does anyone have a translation of this? Would love to see why Aba placed Mr. Game and Watch where he did.

And he and many other top players seem to at least think Robin isn't totally irrelevant. That's nice.

http://smashboards.com/threads/char...theories-tactics.422864/page-12#post-20431517

G&W Part:

Up-smash is better on shield now. Extra Abadango points for being able to land with b-air. He's also one of the d-throw up-air characters. He should get more move-staling.

 

[RonNewcomb]

What's with all the ROB Nair talk when 8BitMan just nair'ed his way to 2nd place at Northwest Majors last weekend? Speaking of, I felt like Big D was just sandbagging in GF against ZeRo. Like, he knew he was outclassed so he just had fun with it with some surprise picks.

I mean, ZeRo can do difficult things, like f-smash dizzied opponents.

 

[Locke 06]

What's with all the ROB Nair talk when 8BitMan just nair'ed his way to 2nd place at Northwest Majors last weekend? Speaking of, I felt like Big D was just sandbagging in GF against ZeRo.

What. Literally none of those things happened. 8bitman didn't take 2nd (if he did, he'd play Zero in GF). Big D didn't play ZeRo in GF, that was winner's finals.

8bitman wasn't there.
Alphicans took 2nd.
Big D took 3rd.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not too familiar with PM, though I seem to recall that Ganon can float in it. I fail to see how custom specials, if that's what you're referring to, make Ganon that much better in FFA. Dropkick is an approach and recovery option, but the approach part isn't as necessary in FFA. None of his other specials are significantly faster than his defaults. I'm sure he does pretty well in FFA, but he still has to deal with being slow, telegraphed, and vulnerable to projectiles. A faster jab might not be the way to go, since I don't just want to make the heavies as fast as the lightweights. Armor is likely the best bet, as far as existing mechanics, though there's something to be said for more unique mechanics for heavyweights; the rules of 1v1 Smash don't much reward bulk at the moment.

FFA isn't really a competitive environment by nature, and I don't think it's impossible to buff heavies for 1v1 without breaking FFA. The issue is that, understandably, the devs erred on the side of caution, since it's better to have underwhelming characters than broken ones. I think that patching offers the opportunity to make some progress with characters that people want to be more viable in 1v1.

Custom Dorf is a monster in FFAs because now he lives forever on top of being able to net KOs with anything besides like Jab and throws. FFAs are ultimately balanced by keeping the number of kills you get in check with how often you are killed. Which is why that the powerful Uspecial customs significantly reduce the distance gained, and why the long-distance customs lack hitboxes. Customs Dorf is broke in FFAs because he gets a much stronger recovery without any real drawbacks. Most of the other heavies get this too, but not nearly as much.

This is why they're so hesitant to give them better options. Giving DDD even a frame 5 Nair might make him too unrewarding to juggle, which then means he's surviving that much longer. Speeding up Dorf's jab would mean he's that much harder to approach, and giving anybody else tough guy would put them way over the top.

The reason why they don't just go "**** it, let's make Dorf viable in 1v1s" is because 1v1s is really that insignificant compared to FFAs for them. It's pretty insignificant to Smash as a whole, actually. The vaaaaaast majority play FFAs, and they want a well-balanced game just as much as we do.

 

[RonNewcomb]

What. Literally none of those things happened. 8bitman didn't take 2nd (if he did, he'd play Zero in GF). Big D didn't play ZeRo in GF, that was winner's finals.

8bitman wasn't there.
Alphicans took 2nd.
Big D took 3rd.

I was watching the FL tourney at about the same time. Perhaps I got my wires crossed...

8BitMan took 2nd to Nick Riddle. Ok, yeah, the alcohol-induced haze is wearing off now...

I also remember ESAM losing a lot to Ryu but not Ryo. Or maybe it was the other way around. And Pikachu was throwing eggs....

 

[Jams.]

Speaking of Alphicans, is this the best result has ever gotten at a regional (2nd at NWM: Drop Zone out of 130)? To my knowledge, all of the top players in the Pacific Northwest showed up to this event minus Cacogen (though likely the best player in the region) and some Alberta players. FYI the only set Alphicans' Sheik actually helped was in losers' finals versus Big D, where his Mac still took game 1.

Is this performance good enough to lift Mac out of potential bottom 5 territory, or is it just an anomaly, lucky bracket, or a case of the Pacific Northwest being bad? Generally, single tournament performances can be discounted; however, when it comes to the lower tier characters which essentially have no results at a regional level, I believe that everything should be considered due to the lack of data.

 

[LiteralGrill]

To Jams. I dunno if Mac is really bottom 5 ever. He just takes a lot of precision. If you include Sol with Alphicans he's certainly gotten better results than many of the characters we discuss here very often.

I come here for something else today too though. As many people have requested him, my next 'character experts article' I want to cover Mewtwo. I have no idea how to find him but I know of Ginko in Japan and would love to try and find a way to talk/translate his thoughts on the character. Anyone know of Mewtwo players I should contact? I already got RayNoire.

 

[Radical Larry]

Not sure how the ROB's you played failed to use his best aerial in the neutral but they must be pretty good. Obviously. And FYI, any actually decent ROB main will tell you that you start to prep the Nair so its already out when you need it. The 18 frame start up is honestly not as awful as you seem to think it is.

That's almost a third of a second to wait for the attack to come. You can't foolishly pull the attack out in neutral and expect the opponent to get hit if they see you pulling it out. It comes out so slowly it can be shielded against.

Speaking of Alphicans, is this the best result has ever gotten at a regional (2nd at NWM: Drop Zone out of 130)? To my knowledge, all of the top players in the Pacific Northwest showed up to this event minus Cacogen (though likely the best player in the region) and some Alberta players. FYI the only set Alphicans' Sheik actually helped was in losers' finals versus Big D, where his Mac still took game 1.

Is this performance good enough to lift Mac out of potential bottom 5 territory, or is it just an anomaly, lucky bracket, or a case of the Pacific Northwest being bad? Generally, single tournament performances can be discounted; however, when it comes to the lower tier characters which essentially have no results at a regional level, I believe that everything should be considered due to the lack of data.

I'm sorry what? There's no way Little Mac should be considered bottom 5. I would believe you if you said just low tier or middle low tier, but bottom 5 is too absurdly low for Little Mac. He's got good tools in his arsenal that shouldn't be overlooked because of his recovery methods being poor. Also, mastering the Sliding KO Punch helps him by extending the reach of the KO Punch by 2 times, which people need to acknowledge is a very dangerous technique because it has a good chance to hit.

 

[Mario766]

It's used like Ike's Nair. Both combo, both are safe on shield and both are very viable approach and sefense options.



Btw about what you said earlier about challenges? When I get a new wii u

Bo5. On a stream. Put up or shut up.

 

[Nobie]

Have you seen this video based on fighting game player Laugh's competitor archetypes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6FHt2RCV0

Essentially, the video puts out this idea that players tend towards one of three categories: the brain, the heart, and the body. Brain-based players are the lab monsters, who figure out the intricacies of a game and play using their superior knowledge of the technical aspects. Heart-based players are the ones who love mixups, reads, and frame traps; they essentially prefer to play the player. Body-based players are the ones who most greatly emphasize technical execution, and are determined to never drop even the most difficult combos.

Most of the top players will have above-average aspects of all three, but will often favor at least one or two over the other. Different games will require different skill sets as well. Most if not all Melee players are going to be body-based to a huge degree.

With this in mind, I have two questions that might be fun to ask:

First, which Smash 4 players do you think are brains, hearts, and/or bodies? This can include top players, or even yourself. I'm not bothering with myself because I would consider myself mediocre at all three.

Second, do you think certain CHARACTERS encourage brain, heart, or body play styles?

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja kinda encourages all three but of them all I think heart is the one he encourages the most. 50/50s mixups and reads are the bulk of his gameplan.

 

[adom4]

Have you seen this video based on fighting game player Laugh's competitor archetypes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6FHt2RCV0

Essentially, the video puts out this idea that players tend towards one of three categories: the brain, the heart, and the body. Brain-based players are the lab monsters, who figure out the intricacies of a game and play using their superior knowledge of the technical aspects. Heart-based players are the ones who love mixups, reads, and frame traps; they essentially prefer to play the player. Body-based players are the ones who most greatly emphasize technical execution, and are determined to never drop even the most difficult combos.

Most of the top players will have above-average aspects of all three, but will often favor at least one or two over the other. Different games will require different skill sets as well. Most if not all Melee players are going to be body-based to a huge degree.

With this in mind, I have two questions that might be fun to ask:

First, which Smash 4 players do you think are brains, hearts, and/or bodies? This can include top players, or even yourself. I'm not bothering with myself because I would consider myself mediocre at all three.

Second, do you think certain CHARACTERS encourage brain, heart, or body play styles?

Ganon feels like almost entirely Heart, being rather reads & mix ups heavy.

 

[Y2Kay]

When your playing a character with weaknesses like Mewtwo, beating the player rather than the (probably) top tier character is the main objective. He also is pretty technical too.

 

[Jams.]

Greninja kinda encourages all three but of them all I think heart is the one he encourages the most. 50/50s mixups and reads are the bulk of his gameplan.

Hmm, I would've expected Greninja to require mind and body more than heart. To my knowledge his execution barrier is pretty high when optimizing his punish game around nair->footstool combos. He also seems to have a fairly diverse array of options, since he doesn't really have useless moves and must correctly option select in most situations, which requires a good understanding of the character's options. Is my understanding flawed, and do you feel that Greninja is defined more by a style based around reads?

 

[Nu~]

Out of all characters, I think is the poster child for the brain category. Her mains are extraordinary dedicated. They take so much time and effort to learn the inside and out of their character to make her function.

Mainly due to her unfortunate design flaws (and series loyalty)



As for myself, I lean heavily towards the description of a heart player. Trickery, mixups, and traps make up the bulk of my playstyle.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc requires both heart and brain, but mostly the heart.

The character just requires good string knowledge, really good neutral play, and knowing how to mix up your advantage. He fits me really well. I think Ryu is another character I click well with, he's most certainly the brain and body combined I think. Myself as a player? I think I'm mostly heart, leaning on body a bit too.

 

[FullMoon]

Hmm, I would've expected Greninja to require mind and body more than heart. To my knowledge his execution barrier is pretty high when optimizing his punish game around nair->footstool combos. He also seems to have a fairly diverse array of options, since he doesn't really have useless moves and must correctly option select in most situations, which requires a good understanding of the character's options. Is my understanding flawed, and do you feel that Greninja is defined more by a style based around reads?

Like I said, he encourages all three to an extent. His execution is tough, yes, but you have to consider that footstool combos out of N-Air only work at very low percentages, so once you miss that mark, they're less of an option. Other footstool combos come out of a meteor D-Air, which you pretty much need a read to start.

You get most kills with Greninja doing 50/50s out of moves like D-Tilt and D-Throw, sometimes guaranteed kill combos like sour N-Air -> Up-Smash and D-Tilt -> Up-Smash and sometimes you just try to read the opponent with stuff like throwing a charged shuriken at them, running at them and baiting a roll or spotdodge and using Shadow Sneak to catch them while they're vulnerable.

Greninja having a diverse array of options like you mentioned only helps him play his mix-up game even more because having a good number of choice only makes so that the opponent has to further guess what he's going to do when he gets in. Mix-ups are very important with him because of that, if you guess wrong he can kill you pretty easily or rack up a good amount of damage.

Also Greninja's recovery is very mix-up based as well which is most of the reason it's so hard to edgeguard.

I myself am 100% a player of the heart playstyle. I can't do footstool combos consistently, I can't do stuff like Perfect Pivot consistently, I don't use much tech in my playstyle at all. But I do know how to bait stuff out of people well and for the most part I consider myself to be a sucessful player more or less, so that could say something as well.

 

[Trifroze]

Custom Dorf is a monster in FFAs because now he lives forever on top of being able to net KOs with anything besides like Jab and throws. FFAs are ultimately balanced by keeping the number of kills you get in check with how often you are killed. Which is why that the powerful Uspecial customs significantly reduce the distance gained, and why the long-distance customs lack hitboxes. Customs Dorf is broke in FFAs because he gets a much stronger recovery without any real drawbacks. Most of the other heavies get this too, but not nearly as much.

This is why they're so hesitant to give them better options. Giving DDD even a frame 5 Nair might make him too unrewarding to juggle, which then means he's surviving that much longer. Speeding up Dorf's jab would mean he's that much harder to approach, and giving anybody else tough guy would put them way over the top.

The reason why they don't just go "**** it, let's make Dorf viable in 1v1s" is because 1v1s is really that insignificant compared to FFAs for them. It's pretty insignificant to Smash as a whole, actually. The vaaaaaast majority play FFAs, and they want a well-balanced game just as much as we do.

Really disagree with the bolded notion. It's not to say that the majority who almost exclusive plays FFAs doesn't care about balance, but that those people simply do not care about it nearly on the same level as those who play this competitively and whose lives depend on it, who want to one day get to that point, or who just spend a lot of their time on this game because it's their #1 hobby.

I know a thing or two about FFAs, it's a chaotic environment where items and multiple players work as a variable that ties the overall balance closer together because it makes everything else matter so much less. Movement speed, hitboxes and power are the things that matter in FFAs, and reducing Ganondorf's landing lag numbers or making his jab faster has virtually no effect on that game mode, yet it would greatly improve his viability to those players who truly care about it.

Ganondorf has always clearly been one of if not the best in FFAs especially with items, yet he keeps getting buffs in every patch. I don't think it's sustainable to argue the development team doesn't care about 1vs1 balance, I think it's actually a lot more sensible to argue that it's the only thing they do care about post-release. If they cared about FFA balance at all, they would've modified the items at this point rather than making fine adjustments to frame data and damage numbers.

I'll also argue FFA is better the more hilariously broken it is, and it's something Brawl unfortunately did a lot better.