Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Wintropy]

Link does have combo opportunities, it's just not nearly enough to make him more of a threat to Dedede than, say, ZSS. Or Ryu. Or Sheik. With those characters, he's honestly only ever within one good confirm of getting put in a tricky position, possibly even fatal. Doesn't matter if Link can combo him, everybody can, it's not really a big deal.

Anybody can combo Dedede if they can get in on him, and I don't think there's many characters that can't get in on him. The only reason it's even a tiny bit irritating for Pit is because, to reiterate, n-air and f-air don't immediately reflect Gordo, so he has to use other options if Dedede wants to Gordo wall him. Considering the vast majority of the cast have at least one quick startup, no commitment move that does 2% damage, Gordo doesn't even matter. It's essentially the difference between "getting comboed hard" and "getting comboed hard to death". Either way, not fun if you're the one holding the Dedede-wielding contoller.

 

[DblCrest]

I thought Dedede's worst match up was with Megaman

wedl!!
He also does semi well against Kirby

 

[williamsga555]

What you're not giving credit to is just how awesome having multijumps is in this case. His ability to escape combos would be the worst in the cast if he didn't have them (nair also helps non-disjoint juggles). It's still not great, but multijumps are a very under-appreciated tool.

I think Link is a bad matchup but I don't buy for a minute that he's our worst. There are characters that have the same sorts of advantages over us that he has, but with higher reward with less commitment and a better disadvantaged state.

Take ZSS, for example. Limited as paralyzer might normally be in neutral, Dedede struggles against it just as badly as any of Link's projectiles in the same situation (he either shields and can't punish due to mobility, or jumps over it and is immediately in disadvantage for being above them), she gets better reward off of landing it, kills us way earlier with simple conversions all on top of having immensely better mobility, recovery, and disadvantaged state in general.

 

[LancerStaff]

Depends on whether you think Pit is relevant.

I don't think it's necessarily even in Dedede's favour, it's just...not a matchup where he gets bodied. Pit has to work extra hard to stay on top of him, mainly because n-air and f-air don't reflect Gordo and that's not okay.

Otherwise I can't think of any. He seems to be more of a player beater than a character beater.

Well, Pit's ground options are pretty lackluster when it comes to dealing with Gordos too. Hitboxes don't match the animations... Well, you'd know. And in the air our only forward facing option is the frame 11 and 12 hitboxes of Dair, which is a comparatively bad autocancel for Pit. Still out of a SH but barely. Bair is okay, but it's a poke and not a sweeping hitbox.

The best way to deal with Gordos IMO are arrows. DDD's fat and slow, so he already kinda drowns in them. But don't give him an inch because arrows do have quite a bit of startup, and if a Gordo gets past an arrow you're taking more then he is. Their high firing rate keeps them at bay effectively, though.

And even outside of Gordos the matchup can feel tough because Pit doesn't have a good early kill option against DDD and he's basically impossible to outright gimp. So it's going to be a lengthy match, and if you screw up like three times you're dead. I could see Pit being at a slight disadvantage, but right now I'd say it's even. Thankfully DDD isn't a tournament threat, or I'd need a real secondary if only because of how tiring it is.

One of the things we should try, as a community, to tell new players is that it's abundantly clear that developers only balance certain characters for "serious" 1v1 competitive play. After 3 previous installments, no developer could look at the kits of D3 or Bowser compared to Sheik and ZSS and say "Yeah, these characters will go about even." We know what attributes pay dividends in 1v1, and we know which characters have them. You're free to choose a free for all type character, but you should know what you're getting into.

But I wonder if it has to be this way. Firstly, I have to say that I don't envy the developers for having to balance for casual FFA play. A brief yarn for illustration: When I was a grade-school brat, I played a ton of Melee, in thoroughly casual fashion. In the first three years or so of my career, I don't believe I used the Shield nor the Roll option even once. I had no concept of defense. How could any developer have balanced around a player like me? A good half the gameplay stood before me, and I ignored it entirely. If I were starting out today, I would have no concept of guaranteed combos, or auto-cancels, or most of the subtle things that go into making a character tournament-viable. If Melee Ganon had a few more tricks up his sleeve against Fox at top-level play, my friends probably would have carried on throwing Warlock Punches at me in what I might now identify as the neutral. We'd never have known. The only time I used Shine was after down throw, or to make Samus mains cry. I do, however, give my third-grade self some points for thinking that NTSC Fox's UpSmash was a very silly move. Game balance was not entirely beyond me.

My point is that developers can probably buff heavy hitters for 1v1 play without much upsetting FFA battles, and that they have heretofore been overly cautious in this area. Slow characters are inherently at a disadvantage in gathering items, which could offset any buffs. Furthermore, while Fox isn't going to be getting into the thick of an 8-way battle, that doesn't mean he's a bad FFA character; he only requires a more hit-and-run oriented play style to do well, which nicely accommodates different sorts of players. Not everyone wants to just run in, damn the torpedoes, and do 15% on every hit. Bottom line is, I think it would be much more difficult to ruin FFA than many developers and players think.

If Ganon had a faster jab, or if heavies had better frame data, I truly don't believe that the FFA world would come crashing down. The Smash system is more robust than we give it credit for.

One last Melee memory: While I was ride-or-die with Fox, my elder brother dual-mained Roy and Ganon. Naturally, I chalked up my victories to my superior play skill. I apologize for nothing. I never won a wrestling match my whole childhood, so I took what scraps I could find.

Well, that wouldn't apply anymore because now that online play is a thing most people know how to shield and roll. The average player knows how to shield at a bare minimum, if only because the CPUs garner success with it. Ruining FFAs wouldn't be hard... PM's pretty borked in FFAs and from what I hear the 1v1 balance isn't especially great either. So FFAs would be pretty far gone by the time 1v1s were worked out... And you can see what happens to FFAs when you make Dorf somewhat viable in 1v1s in the online tournaments featuring specials. It's not really an option.

 

[Routa]

Now that some one mentioned Pit.. What other characters want to go off-stage edgeguard other than Pit(s), MK and Swordfighter?

When people talk about edgeguarding it is kinda sad how often people forget to include Mii Swordfighter that, as far as I know, has one of the greatest edgeguarding game. Swordfighter has very versatile kit when it comes to edgeguarding. He has Multihit Fair that is amazing against vertically recovering people, body covering Nair that pretty much blocks the foes way, THE DAIR, Utilt for catching rollers, getup and jumping foes and then there are his specials. Let's see... He has Tornado (multihit projectile that knocks foes upwards (the place where you don't want to be)), Chakram (Multihit/single hit projectile which trajectory can be changed), Counter (for catching people getting on stage with getup attacks and jump Nairs etc and for the recoveries with hitboxes (extreamly good against Ike and Luigi)) and "Cape". The thing is that he doesn't have a good way to catch people who recover high. His best moves to catch people who recover high are his Uair (FEAR IT!) and U-smash. Overall he has extremely powerful set of edgeguarding tools that get even better with correct weight/height combo. Also he enjoys going deep when he has Spin Attack as his Up-B (you have no idea from how deep you can recover with that).

 

[Doctor_Link]

Quite frankly, would it be so bad for dedede to have a frame 3 nair? Frame 7 seems like a really long time for something as simple as sticking his arms and legs out. I mean, look at pac-man's frame 3 nair where he turns into classic pac and somehow gets a fast vertical spin going. Is frame 7 really necessary?

 

[C0rvus]

Offstage edgeguards tend to be reads, and in general are much more rewarding. These are the sorts of things that can turn a match around. Many characters have aerials suited to going out for a hit: Robin's nair, Villager's anything, Pikachu's fair and nair, Toon Link's fair or nair, etc. It's pretty MU dependent of course. But I see no reason to not go hit Falcon, Ness, Fox, Lucario, and a few others with big openings in their up specials.

The best of edgeguarders seem like those that can go off and set up traps on the stage. Wario's got the Bike and Waft setup to catch multiple options. Villager can bait rolls with a half cut tree and punish. Pac Man has ledge shananigans with the bell and trampoline among others. Peach might be the strongest at edgeguarding in the game, though. Her float and meaty aerials can swat away characters with no hitbox on their up special basically for free. Going low? Turnip z drop and float to cover more. Dair seems pretty good for clipping that 1 frame of vulnerability as well.

 

[Blobface]

Now that some one mentioned Pit.. What other characters want to go off-stage edgeguard other than Pit(s), MK and Swordfighter?

Spoiler

"Oh yes, they float"

"THEY ALL FLOOOOOOOAT!"

 

[Nu~]

Robin's levin aerials and semi spike Nair are pretty scary offstage.

 

[meleebrawler]

Now that some one mentioned Pit.. What other characters want to go off-stage edgeguard other than Pit(s), MK and Swordfighter?

When people talk about edgeguarding it is kinda sad how often people forget to include Mii Swordfighter that, as far as I know, has one of the greatest edgeguarding game. Swordfighter has very versatile kit when it comes to edgeguarding. He has Multihit Fair that is amazing against vertically recovering people, body covering Nair that pretty much blocks the foes way, THE DAIR, Utilt for catching rollers, getup and jumping foes and then there are his specials. Let's see... He has Tornado (multihit projectile that knocks foes upwards (the place where you don't want to be)), Chakram (Multihit/single hit projectile which trajectory can be changed), Counter (for catching people getting on stage with getup attacks and jump Nairs etc and for the recoveries with hitboxes (extreamly good against Ike and Luigi)) and "Cape". The thing is that he doesn't have a good way to catch people who recover high. His best moves to catch people who recover high are his Uair (FEAR IT!) and U-smash. Overall he has extremely powerful set of edgeguarding tools that get even better with correct weight/height combo. Also he enjoys going deep when he has Spin Attack as his Up-B (you have no idea from how deep you can recover with that).

It's because not many know much about Mii Fighters, period.

There are very few characters that CAN'T go offstage to edgeguard (hey Little Mac), or at least have limited options for low recoveries (say, Mario and Fox).

Top/High tiers with the best edgeguarding probably go to Pikachu and Villager.

Lower tiers with notable edgeguarding include Zelda, Dedede, Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff (her only saving grace in some matchups), Ganondorf (if only for the sheer power) and Mewtwo. In fact I've got a fairly detailed writeup about his...

As far as gimping goes, there's a lot Mewtwo can do. He can throw shadow balls, however strong to restrict horizontal recoveries. Nair can be used to great effect against poor recoveries to gimp or cause easy damage against those who lack hitboxes. Shadow Claw is useful as always if you can surprise them or punish. Bair of course has a nice large hitbox to use, and is fairly good at punishing airdodges with good timing. Depending on the character you're facing and their percentage you can sometimes string several together in a wall-of-pain like sequence.

Finally there's his dair which is for the most part your typical meteor dair. Though one should not hesitate to use it if a golden opportunity comes offstage or on. Short-hop dairs can be a useful surprise attack on tall characters as well.

Mewtwo can go very, very deep to either the side or bottom blast zones to edgeguard so make sure to take full advantage of this when a gimp opportunity comes along. However if you go low to edgeguard and miss, be careful not to get footstooled out of your midair jump. It's key for his vertical recovery.

To add to this, bair is a really good stage spiking move, so good in fact that he can often do it when HE's the one recovering.

 

[adom4]

It's because not many know much about Mii Fighters, period.

There are very few characters that CAN'T go offstage to edgeguard (hey Little Mac), or at least have limited options for low recoveries (say, Mario and Fox).

Top/High tiers with the best edgeguarding probably go to Pikachu and Villager.

Lower tiers with notable edgeguarding include Zelda, Dedede, Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff (her only saving grace in some matchups), Ganondorf (if only for the sheer power) and Mewtwo. In fact I've got a fairly detailed writeup about his...



To add to this, bair is a really good stage spiking move, so good in fact that he can often do it when HE's the one recovering.

Ganondorf isn't just power, it's the versatility, pretty much every aerial he has is good for edgeguarding.
The main thing that holds his edgeguarding back somewhat is his mobility.

 

[san.]

Gunner definitely wants to.

Grenade, homing missile, and bomb drop can be combined with aerials such as nair, fair, and bair. Even uair/dair are usable with sufficient setups. UpB1 and UpB2 can gimp those below her.

Grenade has to be avoided and even leaves a blast radius that the opponent has to play around. Homing missile follows opponents and is good at both eating double jumps and baiting air dodges. Bomb drop is good for sending a projectile below, and can even be positioned right at the edge to catch the 2-frame ledge vulnerability. If the opponent moves past gunner, she can send a grenade back onstage, or perform a quick double jump fair for quick momentum.

 

[Nobie]

By the way, just as people are calling Dedede bad and Jigglypuff the pits, Mr. R argues that they're underrated (though by how much is unknown).

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/668897298001354752

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf is an excellent edgeguarder, in the sense that there's not really any single option he can't cover when edgeguarding. He does suffer a lot though when he has to cover multiple options at once, so his edgeguarding can completely collapse against specific characters.

Also, while we're on the topic of edgeguarding: Given the complexity of offstage interactions and the general lack of development thus far, edgeguarding is probably an area we'll see a lot of development in in the future, for all characters.

 

[Y2Kay]

Can we all agree to pretend ESAM's tier list didn't happen? It's really bad........

 

[Rizen]

@Mr. ShinyUmbreon that blue text is an eyesore. If you want people to read your posts you might consider changing it. Just saying.

Link's good at edge guarding. He has 3 curving projectiles and aerials that create disjointed hitbox walls. Dair lasts for 50 strait frames. All his aerials last a long time or hit twice (F/Bair).

 

[G. Stache]

By the way, just as people are calling Dedede bad and Jigglypuff the pits, Mr. R argues that they're underrated (though by how much is unknown).

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/668897298001354752

I just read the conversation that ensued, he also said rest was better than it was in melee, and I'm pretty sure he's the one who called Kirby top 10 (if I'm not mistaken). I've learned to take most top players' words with a grain of salt.





That being said, Tink is in fact pretty underrated.

 

[williamsga555]

By the way, just as people are calling Dedede bad and Jigglypuff the pits, Mr. R argues that they're underrated (though by how much is unknown).

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/668897298001354752

Funny enough, Vinnie has recently posted a tier list as well with Dedede above Falcon and Ike.

I mean, I'd love for my Dedede main pessimism to be proved wrong and all, but I'm highly skeptical.

 

[Drarky]

About edgeguards: Mega Man does plenty of options to punish off-stage opponents. His DAir and BAir are exceptional in that regard, and sweetspotted NAir sends out pretty far. Metal Blade can also become a scary mindgame factor when you Z-drop it.

About Mr R statement:
Abadango putting Mewtwo on B Tier
Esam's tier list.

I think most people should know by now that while top players are a VERY important part of our community, they don't know everything about the game.

Sm4sh Rest being better than Melee Rest tho

 

[Y2Kay]

Funny enough, Vinnie has recently posted a tier list as well with Dedede above Falcon and Ike.

I mean, I'd love for my Dedede main pessimism to be proved wrong and all, but I'm highly skeptical.

Is that ........even a serious tier list?

 

[DblCrest]

Pit and Dark Pit in separate tiers... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Greninja so low

Jiggz so high

Also should Peach swap places with Diddy?

 

[Nobie]

About edgeguards: Mega Man does plenty of options to punish off-stage opponents. His DAir and BAir are exceptional in that regard, and sweetspotted NAir sends out pretty far. Metal Blade can also become a scary mindgame factor when you Z-drop it.

About Mr R statement:
Abadango putting Mewtwo on B Tier
Esam's tier list.

I think most people should know by now that while top players are a VERY important part of our community, they don't know everything about the game.

Sm4sh Rest being better than Melee Rest tho

I think what Mr. R meant is that Rest is better in the dreaded "IN A VACUUM." That is to say, Melee Rest is better because you can combo into it, but Smash 4 rest is stronger than Brawl and has a bigger hitbox than in previous games.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Funny enough, Vinnie has recently posted a tier list as well with Dedede above Falcon and Ike.

I mean, I'd love for my Dedede main pessimism to be proved wrong and all, but I'm highly skeptical.

Seriously? DDD above Yoshi? I'd love to hear his criteria.

 

[Zelder]

Wow Vinnie is trolling this thread without even being aware that it exists. Amazing.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah it's clearly a fake tier list

 

[Ffamran]

How is link able to extend a combo for more than like...4-5 hits?

His moves dont flow together all that well

Bro, that's like two Bairs from Link. Totally doable.

Seriously though, we should use "moves" since the existence of +3-hit moves makes things like Ike can't even do 3 hit combos outside of jab moot. Yeah, well, Falco can do like 20+ hits with 4 Fairs and that amounts to like 36% while a 2-hit setup of 1 Dtilt and 1 Fair from Ike is 20% which is almost 2/3's of that. Semantics argument at this point...

 

[DanGR]

For a group of people that dislike un-backed tier lists being posted in this thread, you guys sure do like to go out of your way to link them from twitter and then try to make sense of them.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I thought Dedede's worst match up was with Megaman

wedl!!
He also does semi well against Kirby

Kirby's best matchup is Dedede lol, at 60:40 to 65:35. There's a 100% chance you've never faced a good Kirby in your life.

By the way, just as people are calling Dedede bad and Jigglypuff the pits, Mr. R argues that they're underrated (though by how much is unknown).

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/668897298001354752

I'm really starting to like Mr. R now, he thinks Kirby is underrated as well!!!!!!

 

[DblCrest]

Kirby's best matchup is Dedede lol, at 60:40 to 65:35. There's a 100% chance you've never faced a good Kirby in your life.

lol . Way to be presumptuous.

But seriously I play just about every character (It's what I do in every Smash game) and Kirby just so happens to be the one with the most hours on.I think I'd have an idea of how some of match ups can go. I was under the impression that Dedede is already an annoyance to gimp given his recovery, his copy ability isn't very useful and the hammer beats out a lot of Kirby's moves which can be troublesome.

 

[wedl!!]

...and why is that? It seems like the matchup would be in Dedede's favor in some capacity, due to his zoning capabilites. Kirby can rack up a lot of damage against him but he's not going to really kill him (outside of edgeguards) so Dedede racks up rage really fast. Kirby also isn't really fast enough or ranged enough to pressure Dedede often.

I don't know either of these characters very well so if someone could clue me in in-depth that would be great.

If we're still talking Twitter tier lists, Dabuz's is excellent IMO. Other than some weird things, like Mario in top 5 (seriously??), Ike top 15, and Greninja being that low (switch him with WFT) it's pretty accurate. Move MM and Reflet too and you're good to go.

 

[thehard]

Why are we so dismissive of Mario as a top 5 character again??

 

[Wintropy]

Why are we so dismissive of Mario as a top 5 character again??

Poor matchups against relevant top-tiers, difficulty finishing stocks, weak range and he's just outdone by other, better characters (people tend to say Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosie, Ryu and Fox among others have better kits and more efficient matchup spreads than him, for example).

I don't necessarily have an opinion on this myself, but that's the common response I hear to the question. I think he's a solid character with great potential, but I think the fact that he doesn't have much in the way of good kill confirms or a truly dominating matchup spread holds him back at top level.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

...and why is that? It seems like the matchup would be in Dedede's favor in some capacity, due to his zoning capabilites. Kirby can rack up a lot of damage against him but he's not going to really kill him (outside of edgeguards) so Dedede racks up rage really fast. Kirby also isn't really fast enough or ranged enough to pressure Dedede often.

I don't know either of these characters very well so if someone could clue me in in-depth that would be great.

If we're still talking Twitter tier lists, Dabuz's is excellent IMO. Other than some weird things, like Mario in top 5 (seriously??), Ike top 15, and Greninja being that low (switch him with WFT) it's pretty accurate. Move MM and Reflet too and you're good to go.

I agree with Mario being too high, but why do you think he should not be Top 5?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's levin aerials and semi spike Nair are pretty scary offstage.

They're scary when trying to edgeguard too.

Outside of spikes and command grabs and Waft, Levin Bair is probably the scariest move to get hit by after a botched edgeguard attempt. You just took 15% in 9 frames, got sent at a 70 degree angle, and if you're around 80%, just about forfeited your stock. Point is, don't mess up hitting Robin.

 

[Apeirohaon]

if anyone's curious dabuz provided short reasoning for some chars in the comments of his tweet
here it is for mario:

Only 1 MU that he potentially loses worse than 45-55 (Rosa), top 8 results just in America by 3 people, more internationally...

I'm inclined to agree, actually. Characters like Fox and Rosa have at least one matchup that's harder than Mario's worst, and Mario has better results than Sonic/MK/Ryu (Mario probably has the second or third best results of any character. You could say it's because he's easy to play, but I don't really buy when talking about top level)

also i think that if you are valuing results the most then mario should easily be top 5/6

and it seems like almost all the top players agree that mario is really really good, so while obviously you can't just trust everything they say, it has to mean something. you could call it bias i guess but it doesn't seem like it to me

 

[Skeeter Mania]

also i think that if you are valuing results the most then mario should easily be top 5/6

That's kinda the thing. Many other factors are taken into consideration while using results of high-level matches in tournaments as a guide. Frame data, MUs, character attributes, all of that matters (IMO a lot more than results, though said results are often used as a guide).

If we're judging by all of these variables, then I think it's fair to call Mario a Top 10, but not Top 5 character.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Well, that wouldn't apply anymore because now that online play is a thing most people know how to shield and roll. The average player knows how to shield at a bare minimum, if only because the CPUs garner success with it. Ruining FFAs wouldn't be hard... PM's pretty borked in FFAs and from what I hear the 1v1 balance isn't especially great either. So FFAs would be pretty far gone by the time 1v1s were worked out... And you can see what happens to FFAs when you make Dorf somewhat viable in 1v1s in the online tournaments featuring specials. It's not really an option.

I'm not too familiar with PM, though I seem to recall that Ganon can float in it. I fail to see how custom specials, if that's what you're referring to, make Ganon that much better in FFA. Dropkick is an approach and recovery option, but the approach part isn't as necessary in FFA. None of his other specials are significantly faster than his defaults. I'm sure he does pretty well in FFA, but he still has to deal with being slow, telegraphed, and vulnerable to projectiles. A faster jab might not be the way to go, since I don't just want to make the heavies as fast as the lightweights. Armor is likely the best bet, as far as existing mechanics, though there's something to be said for more unique mechanics for heavyweights; the rules of 1v1 Smash don't much reward bulk at the moment.

FFA isn't really a competitive environment by nature, and I don't think it's impossible to buff heavies for 1v1 without breaking FFA. The issue is that, understandably, the devs erred on the side of caution, since it's better to have underwhelming characters than broken ones. I think that patching offers the opportunity to make some progress with characters that people want to be more viable in 1v1.

 

[FullMoon]

I can kinda see why people would place Greninja low in more results based tier lists because, well.

Who plays Greninja?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I can kinda see why people would place Greninja low in more results based tier lists because, well.

Who plays Greninja?

aMSa
Some

 

[FullMoon]

aMSa
Some

I thought it was obvious enough that it was a rhetorical question but okay then.

Also aMSa kinda dropped off the face of the Earth as far as this game is concerned.