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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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wpwood

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What do the Palutena and Mii debates have to do with this thread?
I was told by the creator of this thread to come here to discuss character viability. Which is what I plan to do with my post. If you had read what I wrote (and I mean everything) and didn't assume from what antony said you would know that nowhere in that entire paper do I once mention Miis and them being allowed to use custom moves. I wrote that paper to discuss how and why Palutena is where she is on the tier list and how she could be buffed to become a more viable character in our current meta game. It is supposed to be an open topic about Palutena's viability and how as a community we could create a more viable character to create great match ups for people to watch and enjoy.

Palutena has the best aerial acceleration in the game at 0.1. You said it was 1/10th of Mario's. Mario's is 0.07. It is a lot higher than his, not 1/10th of it.
Fixed. Thank you for correcting me.
 
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Nobie

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Palutena is intentionally designed around gimmicks: invincible back-air + dash attack, weird smash attacks, big honking swinging tilts, huge variation in customs-on moves, and more. Any buffs or nerfs to a character have to be with that in mind, because I think it's core to her character. One issue is that "gimmicks" often don't work when you get to higher and higher levels of play, but I think it's possible to strike at least a workable balance.

I also know this isn't the place for Mii arguments, but one thing that has popped into my mind recently is the whole idea that Mii's are negatively affected by their 1111 movesets lacking synergy compared to picking their ideal movesets. I'm not adamantly against full-on Mii legality (at this point, why not try them?), but there are two discussion points that stick out to me.

First, while 1111 sets are undoubtedly worse than fully optimized sets, even a top tier character like Sheik has a super mediocre move in Gravity Grenade and has to work around it. Second, I wonder how much Mii's strengths and weaknesses are designed around 1111 movesets. For example, IS Brawler supposed to lack reliable KO moves, and weirdly redundant moves (Default Up B and Down B) because it was supposed to contrast the character's mobility and damage racking?
 

Peppermint1201

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I was told by the creator of this thread to come here to discuss character viability. Which is what I plan to do with my post. If you had read what I wrote (and I mean everything) and didn't assume from what antony said you would know that nowhere in that entire paper do I once mention Miis and them being allowed to use custom moves. I wrote that paper to discuss how and why Palutena is where she is on the tier list and how she could be buffed to become a more viable character in our current meta game. It is supposed to be an open topic about Palutena's viability and how as a community we could create a more viable character to create great match ups for people to watch and enjoy.
I was responding to Antonykun, not you. I wasn't trying to comment on what you posted at all.
 

wpwood

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User was warned for this post
Palutena is intentionally designed around gimmicks: invincible back-air + dash attack, weird smash attacks, big honking swinging tilts, huge variation in customs-on moves, and more. Any buffs or nerfs to a character have to be with that in mind, because I think it's core to her character. One issue is that "gimmicks" often don't work when you get to higher and higher levels of play, but I think it's possible to strike at least a workable balance.
Yes Palutena has gimmick qualities, but as I said her frame data does not agree with her. She cannot make full use of her unique properties when she was given one of, if not the worst counter in the game over lightweight. Lightweight is what is needed to make up for her slower moves, and like I said already the move is not broken by any means. It has plenty of drawbacks to using it and the infinite glitch was removed.

I was responding to Antonykun, not you. I wasn't trying to comment on what you posted at all.
Sorry about that. I am just trying to find a place to discuss this with other people other than just the Palutena mains. This is a relevant topic to this thread so I came here to discuss it.

My bad.
 
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Peppermint1201

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Palutena is not viable without customs
Miis are not Viable without Mii Specials
Those two statements are true (kinda, 1111 gunner is pretty viable but that's it), however your post made it sound like you were trying to instigate the mii/palutena legality debate.
 

Ffamran

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Late reply.
you basically described greninja. run away, throw shurikens, get a punish, do (too much) damage, run away again.
Chiming in as well but this is literally it, Ffamran Ffamran . He has a real hit and run playstyle, keeping people away with Shurikens and punishing hard. There's no real better way to describe it.

Greninja's shield is his biggest weakness due to poor/limited OOS options and I find myself not using it as much; you are honestly better off just physically avoiding the attack when possible. It's why he suffers/has a harder time against characters like Sheik, Fox or Ness; they get in his face and he has little breathing room with options that Greninja has trouble answering with. When I run into one of those, I go straight into the Mii Brawler or ROB bunker.
I know that, but I forgot to note that guerrilla's aren't exactly known for their defense which if you tie in with Greninja's lackluster OOS options makes total sense. Greninja's geared for hit and run and ambush approaches to combat and what happens when that sort of approach doesn't work? You run. When guerrillas know they did enough damage or failed, they hightail out of there for a next chance or to rethink their strategy and if they're really prepared, they have backup plans. Everyone has a different idea on dealing with (counter)attacks. For guerrillas, it's don't get hit; just get out of the way of the attack.

For someone like Little Mac, a boxer, his philosophy would probably the same except there are some times you have to take the hit. If you watch boxing matches, you'll notice that they will trade and the better trades are often head hits or if they can, solar plexus hits which literally take your breath away. Taking hits to the body? Not as much of an issue even if it's internal like liver and kidney shots, but head? One good hook and you're down and that's the end of the match. Now, Little Mac's, well, little and he's up again wacky things like a villager using gardening tools to murder people, anthropomorphic animals, cartoon characters, a 2D man, and a freaking turtle dragon, so armor on all his moves wouldn't be exactly fair or make sense. If there was a way for Little Mac to force trades with all of his move, then it would be a little fairer since you could end up killing him while he just does damage to you and sends you flying, but not too far. At the same time, it'd be really stupid since Little Mac could force trades no matter what. No (non-boxing) fighting game has system as far as I know and it's probably not going to happen.

A (modern?) Muay Thai approach is to tank hits and hit just as hard because it's flashy and impressive-looking despite being really detrimental to the fighters. Heavyweights would sort of fit this except like Little Mac, they don't have a system of force trades and most of them don't even have armor on their moves. This becomes more ironic when people believe Captain Falcon's moveset was influenced by Muay Thai, but he's known for having a really bad time taking hits.

Why the (unnecessary) wall of text? I think someone asked why Greninja's OOS options weren't good and for me, it kind of seems obvious because of Greninja's design as a hit and run fighter. There's many ways to connect it; Greninja being a "truer" ninja to Sheik - sort of like the Mark of the Ninja and Tenchu ninja vs. Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi ninja - meaning he's actually like a ninja and prefers ambushes over whatever the hell Sheik does that lets her be a jack of all trades and almost master of all, or even Pokémon fans knowing that Dark-types are focused on undermining and exploiting weaknesses rather than overcoming through brute force. This goes for all characters like why would Ike's OOS be so bad? Consider his sword. In close combat, especially in buildings, people would prefer to use shorter weapons like short swords, knives, or fight unarmed since it would be really difficult to use even a regular sword which could catch on walls or you just wouldn't be able to draw if you're in cramped spaces. At least Ike has a jab and Dtilt to alleviate this issue. This would also be countered and justify why Link's OOS options aren't as good despite having a shield. For whatever reason, Link's Master Sword starting in Wind Waker? or Twilight Princess became a longsword, so it would be unorthodox to swing a sword like that one-handed, but he also has a shield which is compact enough he could bash you with it... Link doesn't use his shield at all except for idle and crouch? projectile blocking. Yes, Link doesn't even use his shield properly while shielding unlike in his own series where he holds it out to block. This also becomes more ironic when Link had a hilariously fast (and glitchy) crouch stab in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask or that one of Link's faster direction-ally inputted attacks was a thrust and for Demon's/Dark Souls players, turtling with a spear or rapier was one of the easier ways to play the game. There is, however, one thing that makes his OOS good: Spin Attack. Since 1.0.6, Link's Spin Attack was getting buffs starting with it being frame 8 instead of frame 11 and what was one spammable and abused move in the Zelda series? Spin Attack.
 

Jehtt

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Mario and Shiek are pretty much the only characters that basically invalidate Megaman honestly. Every other matchup he can handle fine due to his tool set being still solid. If they didn't exist or be as strong as they are Megaman would probably have better chances to be solo viable.

speaking of his matchups, I remember Scatt saying Sonic loses to Megaman and I really don't see how. Its even at best honestly.
If it is of any interest, in a somewhat recent post in the Mega Man MU thread, ScAtt said that, after playing Ally at MLG, Mario is not as bad of a matchup as he first thought.
Quick side note from MLG:

After everything was said and done, I played a few friendlies with Ally and I now no longer think that Mario is MM's worst match-up; it's definitely still not in MM's favor, but i'm almost certain that Sheik is worse than Mario now.

...Even given this, I feel as if this match-up is still in Mario's favor (maybe 35:65 or 40:60), but it feels just a little more doable.

Sheik on the other hand.... :cry:
 
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Amadeus9

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There's nothing wrong with Palutena lol. And this coming from someone who has played a lot of Palutena. Her moveset has clear direction and objective with how it was designed. She has wicked good frame data and mobility specs, too, so idk what you're on about there.

It's clear she was designed to be a very safe, poking based turtle fighter, with a side of half grappler, and the ability to make big reads through some pretty bad but hard hitting smashes. She functions in this role quite well and is quite unique in the niche she has. She does have some flaws, but they aren't her specials or her frame data. What's she held back by? Her intended playstyle is not very good in this game. Even Rosalina, who is completely bonkers, is barely holding onto her top 5 position in this game. You have to give something incredibly absurd to this playstyle for it to thrive, and luma is that thing.

Customs break her, she no longer functions as intended when she has access to light weight. It changes her playstyle from something that is unique, balanced, and fairly well rounded to something that is abusive of a few moves and attributes, something the dev team has been very keen on removing from standard play. Whenever a fighter is overly reliant on, and oppressive with a few moves, it's nerfed.

Not to mention, allowing Palutena customs is a big bag of worms that will only start debate again about whether fighters should be allowed to have customs if one is getting special treatment. We don't need that nonsense lol.

I hope she's buffed in future patches because she is one of my favorite fighters in this game. Her moveset is so unique and interesting, especially in standard play. But, that's not something we have a say in. And, artificially boosting the strength of one fighter is not something I, or really anyone should, think is healthy.
 
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Appledees

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The only thing Megaman can really abuse in this match is Mario's lack of range(which kinda means nothing in this matchup cause Mario moves so fast especially with fireballs) so most of the time Megaman would be abusing lemons and Fair alot to space out Mario a bit. Its really hard but its kinda winnable (like 65:35 in Mario favor). Still better off counterpicking to your secondary though.

Sheik's needles in the matchup is complete nonsense that invalidates 90% of what Megaman can actually do
 

Ghostbone

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Nah she's super good with customs. No one bothered to play her though cause we all knew customs were going to die.
She's not top 15, maybe before the lightweight glitch got fixed but certainly not now.

I agree with your post though, she has a functional moveset and good mobility, and her customs completely negate that by giving her a few broken aspects that overshadow the rest of her kit.
 

DunnoBro

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She's not top 15, maybe before the lightweight glitch got fixed but certainly not now.

I agree with your post though, she has a functional moveset and good mobility, and her customs completely negate that by giving her a few broken aspects that overshadow the rest of her kit.
If there's any custom that makes a character good in a balanced, healthy way... It's lightweight. It doesn't negate jack, it's a movement modifier with a strict drawback, it isn't it's own win condition. It directly interacts with her kit to be so good.

And it doesn't break her either, she's still awkward as hell to use with a poor neutral, she just has kill confirms.

I don't really care about palutena getting customs or not, but a lot of the arguments against it are really ignorant or just outright wrong.
 
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Ffamran

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She's not top 15, maybe before the lightweight glitch got fixed but certainly not now.

I agree with your post though, she has a functional moveset and good mobility, and her customs completely negate that by giving her a few broken aspects that overshadow the rest of her kit.
Wasn't the glitch useless without platforms? You could counterpick her to Final Destination, Smashville, and Town & City or if you're fast enough like Fox or Greninja, you could keep pressuring her and never let her even think about using the glitch.
 

DunnoBro

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Wasn't the glitch useless without platforms? You could counterpick her to Final Destination, Smashville, and Town & City or if you're fast enough like Fox or Greninja, you could keep pressuring her and never let her even think about using the glitch.
Even without CPing the glitch didn't help much. It was very awkward to utilize and just enabled mediocre platform camping in some MUs, it was dumb but didn't really break things or probably even alter any MUs.

At most, it gave her the ability to choose when to rush in from a platform with lightweight... But she didn't really have a safe return to neutral that let her also get the new kill confirms.
 
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Ghostbone

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If there's any custom that makes a character good in a balanced, healthy way... It's lightweight. It doesn't negate jack, it's a movement modifier with a strict drawback, it isn't it's own win condition. It directly interacts with her kit to be so good.

And it doesn't break her either, she's still awkward as hell to use with a poor neutral, she just has kill confirms.

I don't really care about palutena getting customs or not, but a lot of the arguments against it are really ignorant or just outright wrong.
Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
 

Dre89

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Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
ZSS grab is literally one of the easiest grabs in the game to land, it's just used in scenarios different to traditional grabs.

It has massive range, beats shields rolls spotdodges airdodges and is not negated by hitboxes that don't hit ZSS herself.

Spaced grab beats every landing option except double jump.

It's also not as punishable as it looks. A lot of characters actually don't get guaranteed punishes if she whiffs it in front of them.
 

ARGHETH

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It's also not as punishable as it looks. A lot of characters actually don't get guaranteed punishes if she whiffs it in front of them.
Characters can't punish the 40 frames of endlag?
 

Dre89

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Characters can't punish the 40 frames of endlag?
If she whiffs it infront of someone when they're on the ground (as in they are out of range for the grab) only very fast characters have guaranteed punishes without a projectile.

For example DK and Bowser do not have guaranteed punishes in that scenario. Mario can't get a guaranteed punish from that range other fireball (and maybe fludd?). Charizard may get sideb guaranteed (not sure) but nothing else is guaranteed. All the FE characters except Robin (projectile) can't punish it for free in that scenario. Luigi can fireball and may be able to cyclone it but I'm not sure.

But yeah, you actually need to be pretty quick to punish it from that position. You'd be surprised.
 
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Vipermoon

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ZSS grab is literally one of the easiest grabs in the game to land, it's just used in scenarios different to traditional grabs.

It has massive range, beats shields rolls spotdodges airdodges and is not negated by hitboxes that don't hit ZSS herself.

Spaced grab beats every landing option except double jump.

It's also not as punishable as it looks. A lot of characters actually don't get guaranteed punishes if she whiffs it in front of them.
I agree with everything except for the first and last points.

If she whiffs it infront of someone when they're on the ground (as in they are out of range for the grab) only very fast characters have guaranteed punishes without a projectile.

For example DK and Bowser do not have guaranteed punishes in that scenario. Mario can't get a guaranteed punish from that range other fireball (and maybe fludd?). Charizard may get sideb guaranteed (not sure) but nothing else is guaranteed. All the FE characters except Robin (projectile) can't punish it for free in that scenario. Luigi can fireball and may be able to cyclone it but I'm not sure.

But yeah, you actually need to be pretty quick to punish it from that position. You'd be surprised.
Are you assuming characters aren't allowed to move towards Samus? That's what I'm getting from reading this.
 

Rizen

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ZSS grab is literally one of the easiest grabs in the game to land, it's just used in scenarios different to traditional grabs.

It has massive range, beats shields rolls spotdodges airdodges and is not negated by hitboxes that don't hit ZSS herself.

Spaced grab beats every landing option except double jump.

It's also not as punishable as it looks. A lot of characters actually don't get guaranteed punishes if she whiffs it in front of them.
I agree.
Tether grabs aren't nearly as bad as the were in Brawl. SSB4's game (endlag/landing/shield) mechanics are more suited to them and the range of other grabs is balanced better; no more Brawl DDD or Melee Marth grab distance. I think of Link's grab as a 'punishing grab'. See a landing>grab, opponent is in any kind of lag>grab, opponent's wiffs an attack and grab goes strait through the hitbubbles. Link's grab is literally as long as Shulk's Fsmash (tested).
I'm not saying that tethers are better, just that they can't be instantly ruled out as a "bad grab" like in previous games.
 

Omegascizor456

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Even matchup.

It's pretty bad (40-60 or 35-65 at worst). :4sonic: has no reliable way of getting in. You can kill :rosalina: if she's offstage and harass her in the air, but getting her off the ground in the first place is really hard. Spindash loses to her just multijabbing with luma. One can't exactly grab :rosalina:.

She is susceptible to people rolling behind her and sh aerial crossups, but those get obvious during a match. :4sonic: can't land and she traps landings well.

:018:
i could see that being a problem especially with lumas jab coming out so fast.. :/
 

Y2Kay

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It was Jem’s turn to cry. His face was streaked with angry tears as we made our way through the cheerful crowd. “It ain’t right,” he muttered, all the way to the corner of the square where we found Atticus waiting. Atticus was standing under the street light looking as though nothing had happened: his vest was buttoned, his collar and tie were neatly in place, his watch-chain glistened, he was his impassive self again.

“It ain’t right, Atticus,” said Jem.


What could he say?

He couldn't explain this to anyone, much less a boy. A boy who was barely twelve--no, already thirteen. A boy who had counted on his single father for many things, but none more so than the truth.

Was he supposed to say the truth? That Tom Robinson was innocent, that he successfully proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he had held this fact two-inches from the face of every citizen of Maycomb, that none of that mattered because Tom was a Negro? That sometimes people just decided that Negros had to die, because well that's just the way the world works--the world they knew, the world they called home?

Thirteen. He couldn't bear that weight, it was unfair even for a grown man. He still had that fire in him, not yet smothered by the pressure of the world.

He'd be upset. He'd yell at his teacher. He'd get into fights at school. When he got older he'd write articles to send to the paper, and get into arguments with distinguished men in Mobile and Oxford. And none of it would matter, because well that's just the way the world works.

And maybe if there were a dozen Jems and a thousand Scouts, their children's future would be different. But that wasn't reality, or at least not Maycomb. They would spend a future feeling alone, and impatient. They would endure a lifetime of frustration, facing a world that would never listen. They would have to live in a world that sometimes, for no reason at all, kills mockingbirds.

What could he possibly say?

“No son, it’s not right.”

We walked home.

--------------------------------------------------

Thus, Palutena is not allowed to use customs.
but Atticus is a freaking racist piece of crap now lol. But besides that, I'm in full support of Palutena and the miis getting customs. They come automatically with the game, so why not? I'm suprised they're letting us talk about customs, but I'm excited!
No character is really solo-viable if sheik didn't exist. She's very rarely a characters absolute worst MU among top tiers and is usually doable, so the idea of characters viability hinging on her existence seems odd to me.

ZSS, and Rosalina are far more gatekeeper status than sheik. But in general at this point, characters are non-solo viable because there's a bunch of characters they can't deal with and it's because they're just inherently bad.
I find this phenomenon very strange. Sheik is the best character, but her strengths don't seem as cheesy as ZSS or Luma. Most Characters can have a prayer against :4sheik: but it seems like :4zss: stupid grab and :rosalina: star slave gives them more polarizing matchups. They have more 70:30's, but there spread is definitely isn't as great as :4sheik:

Mario and Shiek are pretty much the only characters that basically invalidate Megaman honestly. Every other matchup he can handle fine due to his tool set being still solid. If they didn't exist or be as strong as they are Megaman would probably have better chances to be solo viable.

speaking of his matchups, I remember Scatt saying Sonic loses to Megaman and I really don't see how. Its even at best honestly.
I believe it's because his projectiles interrupt spin dash, but i could be wrong. Hey, you can always tag him!
I special summon to the field in debate mode, @ScAtt77 : the previously mentioned :4megaman: main!
 

Dinoman96

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Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
If you know what you're doing, you can DI away from her neutral air -> up air thing. Also Palutena's grab is notably laggier than most characters.
 

wpwood

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There's nothing wrong with Palutena lol. And this coming from someone who has played a lot of Palutena. Her moveset has clear direction and objective with how it was designed. She has wicked good frame data and mobility specs, too, so idk what you're on about there.

It's clear she was designed to be a very safe, poking based turtle fighter, with a side of half grappler, and the ability to make big reads through some pretty bad but hard hitting smashes. She functions in this role quite well and is quite unique in the niche she has. She does have some flaws, but they aren't her specials or her frame data. What's she held back by? Her intended playstyle is not very good in this game. Even Rosalina, who is completely bonkers, is barely holding onto her top 5 position in this game. You have to give something incredibly absurd to this playstyle for it to thrive, and luma is that thing.

Customs break her, she no longer functions as intended when she has access to light weight. It changes her playstyle from something that is unique, balanced, and fairly well rounded to something that is abusive of a few moves and attributes, something the dev team has been very keen on removing from standard play. Whenever a fighter is overly reliant on, and oppressive with a few moves, it's nerfed.
Ok first off her frame data is not "wicked good." Here I cover her slow frame data and you should probably read it. Her f-tilt hit box comes out frame 17. That is the slowest f-tilt in the entire game, and she can not act of her f-tilt for 68 frames. So her "wicked good" frame data consist of the laggiest f-tilt in the entire game in both starting hit box and FAF. She has the 4th slowest reflector at 56 frames of lag and that reflector has the lowest multiplier of x1.17. Her counter which is just god awful has the second most recovery frames; 75, an average amount of counter frames; 22, and her counter doesn't even come out the fastest. It's on the lower end of how fast counters come out at 9 frames. So if "wicked good" describes this frame data how should I describe ZSS, Rosa, Sheik, Mairo and almost anyone else on the cast?

So Rosa has Luma. It's what is necessary to make the character work in this game. Well Palutena has lightweight and that's what is needed to make her work in this game. Lightweight will be Palutena's luma but to a lesser degree. Lightweight won't be there for the whole match it will just be there for a total of 12 seconds every 30 seconds. A lot less often than luma most of the time. Lightweight will make Palutena viable and not broken. She may not make it to a top 5 position, because lightweight is not that broken, but she will move up in the tier list.

Again. Not asking for a full custom Palutena because I don't want to go there. I only want to give her access to lightweight. She will still function as she was intended to be played. She will not be overly reliant on lightweight. Palutena players have spent enough time at a disadvantage with counter to find other ways to kill without using lightweight. Lightweight will be a tool she will actually use compared to her counter.

Lightweight is not a broken move. I covered the move to the best of my ability with the little data there is on it, and from that data it is clear the move is not broken. She takes extra damage, her speed is reduced to half, and she cannot abuse lightweight because of the infinite glitch, which I mentioned, being patched out and the reuse timer on the move.

You said that nothing is wrong with Palutena but then you said you hope she gets buffed in future patches. There is something wrong with Palutena and that is she is stuck with the worst counter in the game in default and lightweight is the sole major buff she needs. It offsets the negative of her frame data and allows her to secure kills better



Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
Killing off grab at mid 40's has a lot more involved to it than you may think. You have to closely manage your percent along with your opponent's percent in order for rage to not send the person flying just out of reach and giving them time to air dodge. Also you can just smash DI in on her nair to come out on the other side and not get hit by up air. It is a lot harder to hit and get off than ZSS up air to up b. Also if it's unfair to kill so early off the top why do we let Rosa go to dreamland or Town and City. In no way is that tactic 100% broken; there are plenty of flaws and plenty of drawbacks to even using lightweight.
 
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wedl!!

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On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
 

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Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
The first one shouldn't happen against a competent player, in the same sense Yoshi shouldn't spike you all the time when you get at high enough level of play.

Now, nobody said a Custom should cover a character's flaws, that would actually be bad design.
Being a character with poor neutral and an amazing advantaged state (which is still not nearly as good as MK or ZSS or other combo-heavy characters) is not necessarily a bad thing.
:196:
 
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Dre89

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Are you assuming characters aren't allowed to move towards Samus? That's what I'm getting from reading this.
No I'm not assuming that

That's my point. If ZSS is facing the character and whiffs the grab so that they are just out of its range, a lot of characters cannot get a guaranteed punish from this position. That number goes up if you narrow it down to meaningful punishes (mainly if you discount weak projectiles).

For example DK cannot get a guaranteed punish. Spotdodge will evade any immediate action he tries except for dash-downb, which can be avoided by jumping. So technically he can get a punish by dashing and waiting out the spotdodge or reading a jump, but he has nothing guaranteed. It's like that for a lot of characters.

It's part of my larger point, that her grab is too good for how insane its reward is. It's too easy to land because it beats so many options, and cannot be punished hard if the ZSS is smart about her usage.
 
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Vipermoon

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No I'm not assuming that

That's my point. If ZSS is facing the character and whiffs the grab so that they are just out of its range, a lot of characters cannot get a guaranteed punish from this position. That number goes up if you narrow it down to meaningful punishes (mainly if you discount weak projectiles).

For example DK cannot get a guaranteed punish. Spotdodge will evade any immediate action he tries except for dash-downb, which can be avoided by jumping. So technically he can get a punish by dashing and waiting out the spotdodge or reading a jump, but he has nothing guaranteed. It's like that for a lot of characters.

It's part of my larger point, that her grab is too good for how insane its reward is. It's too easy to land because it beats so many options, and cannot be punished hard if the ZSS is smart about her usage.
You have about 40 frames to punish ZSS's grab after the final hitbox frame. In the DK example he easily has enough time to dash attack and dash grab.
 

DunnoBro

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Killing at mid 40's off a grab isn't balanced.
It doesn't kill any earlier on average than ding dong, or MK/ZSS stuff. It also takes far more DI reading and preparation to do.

This isn't like ZSS who has a 16 frame grab with ridiculous endlag.
You're right, it's actually much much worse because it isn't a viable option off shield grab or punishes. It only works with preparation.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.
Everything that makes the top tiers top can be considered "gimmicky" so I don't really think you're viewing this objectively.

But yea, it doesn't make up for her flaws really. It just works with them.

You have about 40 frames to punish ZSS's grab after the final hitbox frame. In the DK example he easily has enough time to dash attack and dash grab.
I suggest you actually try this. Unless DK has a running start or was completely immobile at the edge of grab range, he can't. Landing lag or any recovery frames from any type of action (even shield drop) don't let this work.
 
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Dre89

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You have about 40 frames to punish ZSS's grab after the final hitbox frame. In the DK example he easily has enough time to dash attack and dash grab.
You might be able if your literally just standing there doing nothing and react to it immediately.

I wouldn't know though, because that's just not a realistic scenario. 99% of the time you'll be doing another action, which means it'll be a few frames at least before you're free to go for it. I can't imagine too many scenarios where a good ZSS is going to whiff a grab on a player doing nothing.
 

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On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
I've seen it argued that Pit's Gatekeeper is himself. His design is such that he has neither extreme strengths or extreme weaknesses, but at the same time he's not a character without strengths OR weaknesses at all. He has to work to get anything done, and is capable of fighting just about any character be they zoner, rushdown, or whatever, but it requires that you to a small extent be able to outplay your opponent.

There's this idea that Mewtwo is mid tier if you put in the work, but that it's a long and hard slog. I think Pit is kind of similar, except that it's for being high tier. You learn the ins and outs of the character, every little aspect they have, and that ends up with a character who's still capable of winning but has less dominating tools than the top tiers.
 

Wintropy

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Again. Not asking for a full custom Palutena because I don't want to go there. I only want to give her access to lightweight. She will still function as she was intended to be played. She will not be overly reliant on lightweight. Palutena players have spent enough time at a disadvantage with counter to find other ways to kill without using lightweight. Lightweight will be a tool she will actually use compared to her counter.
I don't think Palutena needs Lightweight, but it does make her otherwise mediocre kit more viable in terms of the opportunities it opens. That's a pretty big deal and it'd definitely make her a more consistent character in terms of followups and making use of her otherwise weak advantage.

The thing is, it won't solve her biggest issues. Palutena's an inherently defensive character, with her moves designed to reflect this; you can't just toss things out in neutral and hope to do well, you need to wait for opportunities and poke with what safe options she has. Lightweight won't fix her mediocre tilts and smashes and it won't really change her gampelan: she will still be a defensive grappler who wants to get the grab, she will still suffer in neutral and she will still have to fish massively for kills. It will definitely make her better, but it won't necessarily make her good. She'd need her other customs for that to be a reality. Cherry-picking one custom, even with the best of intent (and I do agree with the spirit of your message), won't fix what currently makes her a weak character; it will just mask it.

On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
I can't speak for Pac-Man, but I don't think Pit has a gatekeeper. He has a few matchups that he doesn't really want to get involved in (Sonic, Sheik and ZSS come to mind), but nothing that he can't win with a bit of grit and elbow grease. I don't think there's any single character that stunts his potential viability. He doesn't really commit to one gameplan, he's got pretty decent options for most matchups: versatile kit, decent frame data, great (if somewhat gimpable) recovery, a pretty good projectile, good mobility, pivot options and grab reward that helps his footsies game - he doesn't really play one consistent game, so there's nothing that can really counter him in the traditional sense.

I don't think Pit gets mediocre results because he has a gatekeeper keeping him out. I don't think that's the issue, and I think most Pit players will agree with me. The issue here (you've heard this before; feel free to skip the rest of this paragraph if you're tired of Wintropy's Pit rants) is that, because he doesn't commit to one gameplan or distinguish himself in any impressive way, he doesn't counter anybody either. I don't think there's a single character that thinks, "Oh, whoah, Pit! I can't beat him!" His diverse options and ability to play footsies well means he can be a very good character in the hands of a player with good fundamentals; but because of that, there's really no reason why you should play Pit at top-level except for reasons of character loyalty or as a reliable pocket. If you want a character that can reflect your fundamentals and has the options to play footsies with most of the cast, if you want a safe, comfortable all-rounder that's good at most things but doesn't have traditionally great options - why not just play Sheik? She does have great options and she is the safest character in the game in terms of matchup spread. If you're a top player and you have great fundamentals, why go for the weaker option to reflect those fundamentals?

The thing keeping Pit out, in my opinion, isn't other characters: it's Pit himself. There's not really much incentive to main him if you just want a safe, reliable character, because there are other characters safer and more reliable than him, and everybody at the top knows it. Nairo only brings out (Dark) Pit as a pocket or for fun, I don't think he's ever brought him out for grand finals in a national because he knows other characters (ZSS or, hell, Doc!) counter other characters better than Pit does. Even the undisputed best Pit main on the planet, Earth, pockets Fox in case he needs the matchup advantage. Pit can in theory win even his worst matchups, but there comes a time when you're just forcing yourself to play the character because you want to play the character. That's great and it's fine for certain people, but for others, they want to win and they want a character that will help them win. Pit can provide that, but he doesn't provide it in a quantity sufficient to make him stand out within a sea of high-tier characters with equally good fundamentals and even better matchups. That's what I think holds Pit back, and it's why I think that he will remain a consistent character with respectable results, but - short of Earth moving to the US or another top Pit main coming out of the woodwork to make waves in nationals - he won't be anything more than just a good, honest character.

EDIT: Nobie Nobie just beat me to it. I spent twenty minutes on this treatise, damn it...!
 
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Y2Kay

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On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
Well pit doesn't really have a gatekeeper. He has losing match ups to :4sheik: :4zss: and :4pikachu: but none are awful. Same for :4greninja: actually as of the latest patch. He loses to :4sheik: and :4sonic: still, but the top greninjas have made it doable, and is no longer dreadful.

:150:

Edit: crap! Everyone beat me to it! :(
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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You have about 40 frames to punish ZSS's grab after the final hitbox frame. In the DK example he easily has enough time to dash attack and dash grab.
You have to take in account that 40 frames is still less then a second, if you aren't already setup you shouldn't be able to hit that, and a ZSS will rarely give you that chance since they don't just blindly grab.
 

Wintropy

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Well pit doesn't really have a gatekeeper. He has losing match ups to :4sheik: :4zss: and :4pikachu: but none are awful. Same for :4greninja: actually as of the latest patch. He loses to :4sheik: and :4sonic: still, but the top greninjas have made it doable, and is no longer dreadful.

:150:
Earth reckons he gets bopped by Sonic too. He says it's Pit's worst matchup (and might contribute to why he carries Fox with him), and considering he gets to play Komokiri on a regular basis, I'd believe him.

I can see where he's coming from. Pit has no options to really challenge Sonic in neutral, he outruns Pit's arrows, he can challenge Pit's recovery and his speed makes it difficult for Pit to play footsies with him. You're still going to want to grab if possible, but Sonic's a slippery 'hog and that mitigates one of Pit's best options in neutral. Disjoints can be useful here, and Pit's probably going to want to play defensively in this matchup, but I don't think he really has anything to outright threaten Sonic.

This is a common theme for Pit, to be honest: he's got good options for dealing with anything and he doesn't get outright dropkicked by any of the top-tiers, but he doesn't have anything to make them sweat either. Pit has the tools to beat them and he will never get bodied on the CSS, but it requires consistency and, more often than not, a knack for outplaying the other guy. It's possible, but not something most top players want to deal with.
 
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Amadeus9

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Ok first off her frame data is not "wicked good." Here I cover her slow frame data and you should probably read it. Her f-tilt hit box comes out frame 17. That is the slowest f-tilt in the entire game, and she can not act of her f-tilt for 68 frames. So her "wicked good" frame data consist of the laggiest f-tilt in the entire game in both starting hit box and FAF. She has the 4th slowest reflector at 56 frames of lag and that reflector has the lowest multiplier of x1.17. Her counter which is just god awful has the second most recovery frames; 75, an average amount of counter frames; 22, and her counter doesn't even come out the fastest. It's on the lower end of how fast counters come out at 9 frames. So if "wicked good" describes this frame data how should I describe ZSS, Rosa, Sheik, Mairo and almost anyone else on the cast?

So Rosa has Luma. It's what is necessary to make the character work in this game. Well Palutena has lightweight and that's what is needed to make her work in this game. Lightweight will be Palutena's luma but to a lesser degree. Lightweight won't be there for the whole match it will just be there for a total of 12 seconds every 30 seconds. A lot less often than luma most of the time. Lightweight will make Palutena viable and not broken. She may not make it to a top 5 position, because lightweight is not that broken, but she will move up in the tier list.

Again. Not asking for a full custom Palutena because I don't want to go there. I only want to give her access to lightweight. She will still function as she was intended to be played. She will not be overly reliant on lightweight. Palutena players have spent enough time at a disadvantage with counter to find other ways to kill without using lightweight. Lightweight will be a tool she will actually use compared to her counter.

Lightweight is not a broken move. I covered the move to the best of my ability with the little data there is on it, and from that data it is clear the move is not broken. She takes extra damage, her speed is reduced to half, and she cannot abuse lightweight because of the infinite glitch, which I mentioned, being patched out and the reuse timer on the move.

You said that nothing is wrong with Palutena but then you said you hope she gets buffed in future patches. There is something wrong with Palutena and that is she is stuck with the worst counter in the game in default and lightweight is the sole major buff she needs. It offsets the negative of her frame data and allows her to secure kills better





Killing off grab at mid 40's has a lot more involved to it than you may think. You have to closely manage your percent along with your opponent's percent in order for rage to not send the person flying just out of reach and giving them time to air dodge. Also you can just smash DI in on her nair to come out on the other side and not get hit by up air. It is a lot harder to hit and get off than ZSS up air to up b. Also if it's unfair to kill so early off the top why do we let Rosa go to dreamland or Town and City. In no way is that tactic 100% broken; there are plenty of flaws and plenty of drawbacks to even using lightweight.
You're cherry picking really hard on your frame data argument. How can you mention ftilt but not mention things she has that are really good, like fair, bair, jab. Yeah her tilts are bad. Tilts don't represent a full moveset, though. That's just absurd.

Also I mirror what Wintropy has said. Lightweight doesn't fix her problems, it just masks them (at the expense of subverting her design philosophy)
 

Mr. Johan

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Palutena's Lightweight was considered dumb because the intended speed cut drawback was essentially negated by Super Speed and its Spindash-esque qualities + grab cancel, and if you're using custom Palutena, you are using those two moves together.

Take one out, and Palutena becomes a lot more exposed.
 
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Gamegenie222

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Oh a new thread well time to catch up on this theroycraft fest on my lunch breaks now.
 
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