Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[19_]

Denti was there, he got eliminated by Mew^2 and Hyrule.

darn it my gut was telling me "well maybe". should have listened

anyway dakpo still wasn't there and denti is known for slipping sometimes. This is not the first time he lost to hyrule hero (but it is a first for mew^2!). Can't say it makes me wonder with the same link taking a set from him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Watching abadango's stream. And I can say:
double cloud in teams is as ridiculous as it is enteraining
paseriman has a fox secondary, looking like young earth right now

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It starts getting difficult to justify Lucas as superior previously acknowledged solid characters; lots of aspects about him (like his recovery options) are good-but-not-great.

I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. I assume from context you mean something along the lines of Lucas results making it hard to dismiss him out of hand as a mid-or-lower character, but I can't be certain.

Also, Lucas pretty obviously has a tether grab by virtue of the fact that he can tether to the ledge with it. Although I'll grant its range and frame data act like it wants to break up with tethers but doesn't quite have the courage.

 

[Nobie]

I guess the answer to Duck Hunt's kill woes is "up tilt," based on Brood's gameplay.

 

[L9999]

Brood did a Ken Combo, and Utilt killed consistently, Foward Throw to dash attack.....That guy makes it seem that DHD isn't entirely hopeless. Also, Mii Gunner in bracket. Japan meta is weird...

 

[Sonicninja115]

Utilt kills at 140% right?

And I am pretty sure Japan's meta has always been weird, completely different playstyles usually.

 

[Ffamran]

Is that so? Is there any links to his results or any videos?

MinnesotaSmash, the channel for Minnesotan Smashing. Recently, Shinjoebi, PRed #6 and ex-Roy player, took 4th in the University of Minnesota Smash December Monthly: http://umnsmash.challonge.com/DecMonthS4Singles2. Notable sets include winning against MN's #1 PRed player, Ganon the Beast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dgKsG5rBug. Sure, we get it, Ganondorf's pretty screwed against Greninja (and almost everyone else), but if you're that good of a player even in a region people sometimes don't take seriously - hello, Wisconsin -, that's one hell of an achievement taking out your #1 PRed player. Unfortunately, he was double eliminated by PowPow, a Sonic player from Wisconsin. Winners bracket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ5bHKPGWu0, and losers semis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLjCJvBf2gA, against PowPow. Oh, and the winner was SWAG, the #8 PRed player; he was the Mega Man.

Spoiler: Top 8 for that tournament was this:

1. SWAG,
2. Triple R,
3. Circa | PowPow,
4. Shinjoebi,
5. Ganon the Beast,
5. Dexter,
7. Prince Kirby,
7. Yeti,

Spoiler: History of Shinjoebi's placing

Yeah, from the looks of things, Shinjoebi did switch from Roy as in September which is when the latest PR was posted in the PR thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/, and Shinjoebi was listed as Roy. Now and from what the commentators said in his set against Ganon the Beast if I recall correctly, he switched. I don't know when, but he switched. Looking up "shinjoebi (greninja)" on Youtube had October as the most recent time he's used Greninja. 9th in October's monthly: http://umnsmash.challonge.com/OctMonthS4Top32, and 3rd in November's: http://umnsmash.challonge.com/NovMonthS4Top32 and in October's Smash in STC 10/24/15: http://challonge.com/STCOct15Singles. Also got 5th in Sm4sh LL #10: http://sm4shll.challonge.com/LL10Singles. With Roy, 9th in Go4 Smash Weekly: Sm4sh 9/19/2015: http://umnsmash.challonge.com/go4weekly1, 7th in LL #8, #7, 13th in LL #6, 5th in LL #5, 4th in LL #4.

He seems to place similarly with Greninja, albeit it's rising rather than falling like with Roy. I don't know where his tag comes from, but he really is a shinobi if he continues to play Greninja. So, just a good player who happens to use Greninja and who happened to use Roy?

 

[MewSquared]

darn it my gut was telling me "well maybe". should have listened

anyway dakpo still wasn't there and denti is known for slipping sometimes. This is not the first time he lost to hyrule hero (but it is a first for mew^2!). Can't say it makes me wonder with the same link taking a set from him.

I have actually beaten Denti in bracket plenty of times, however it was my first time doing so in Shockwave. Same goes to Hyrule Hero, except this was his second time doing it in Shockwave. Our matches are usually pretty close we really go at it lol.

 

[Yikarur]

Ryujis Diddy was amazing. It was the most patient Diddy I've ever seen. He gave everyone a run for their tournament life and it was his first offline tournament and he is going to genesis. I'm super interested and hyped to see him there. I'm still thinking Diddy is Top5 and japan has quite potent Diddy playersto prove it I still see even more potential and technics that no one uses yet. Diddy will probably rise high in a later section of this game's life span.

 

[Mo433]

I have actually beaten Denti in bracket plenty of times, however it was my first time doing so in Shockwave. Same goes to Hyrule Hero, except this was his second time doing it in Shockwave. Our matches are usually pretty close we really go at it lol.

Since you're here, what do you think of Mewtwo vs Cloud?

 

[Browny]

Some of the Japanese seemed to clue in on a good strategy vs Abadangos Metaknight (and any MK that purely goes for dash attack combos the entire game);

Stay near the ledge for about the first 50%. Dash attack doesnt combo into uair near the ledge since it stops MKs forward momentum. Of course, the ONE TIME someone moves closer to centre stage, he gets them with it for a stupidly early KO. If people had just a bit more patience I think it would work out well for them and just wait until that % window for the combo has passed.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't think Japan's metagame is weird perse, but they like experimenting a lot. Except with DK and Ike because gorillas. Honestly, experimentation is better, more unexpected things happen making it more entertaining for spectators

 

[Aaron1997]

Some of the Japanese seemed to clue in on a good strategy vs Abadangos Metaknight (and any MK that purely goes for dash attack combos the entire game);

Stay near the ledge for about the first 50%. Dash attack doesnt combo into uair near the ledge since it stops MKs forward momentum. Of course, the ONE TIME someone moves closer to centre stage, he gets them with it for a stupidly early KO. If people had just a bit more patience I think it would work out well for them and just wait until that % window for the combo has passed.

The problem with this is you give MK all the stage Control he can dream of and he will find a way to get you sooner or later.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's nothing weird about the japanese metagame.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Seems like good Greninja results are beginning to show up in NA through Gibus and also Venia who has been placing pretty well at Nebulous recently, even beating Jtails once.

Wow I met Venia online, and he's really good. Great to know who he actually is!

 

[DunnoBro]

Brood did a Ken Combo, and Utilt killed consistently, Foward Throw to dash attack.....That guy makes it seem that DHD isn't entirely hopeless.

Those have always been things...

Functionality has never been DHD's issue, it's just how underwhelming it all is. Utilt doesn't kill till 140~ without rage and it's hardly a versatile enough hitbox that you can rely on it like say dk utilt or mario usmash when you need a kill.

 

[wedl!!]

Gheb you don't understand!

Japanese players don't rushdown all the time! They don't do all the flashy combos that all the commentators scream about! They just play neutral and it's soooooooooo boring! Also, their commentators don't even speak English! What a bunch of BALONEY!

Ryujis Diddy was amazing. It was the most patient Diddy I've ever seen. He gave everyone a run for their tournament life and it was his first offline tournament and he is going to genesis. I'm super interested and hyped to see him there. I'm still thinking Diddy is Top5 and japan has quite potent Diddy playersto prove it I still see even more potential and technics that no one uses yet. Diddy will probably rise high in a later section of this game's life span.

I'm interested in seeing him play. Could you shoot us some VODs later?

Also I can see Diddy as a better character than... Rosalina, maybe. They're around the same power level. I personally underrate him, but I agree with your statement that he could rise as the game evolves. Diddys are getting more and more creative with their traps and the counterplay isn't really evolving all that much. His matchup spread is also good against the current meta (with the swarm of Sheiks, who he doesn't get totally destroyed by like most characters and not a lot of Rosas or Pikas) and can get better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I also see Diddy as a strong top 5 contender. His neutral game is just so ridiculously flexible and versatile, there's no way to consistently outdo this character head-on. He's actually stronger than his somewhat overrated and gimmicky Brawl iteration. It's a lot harder to randomly catch bananas with aerials, air dodge or dash attacks in smash 4 due to how small hitboxes are compared to how big they used to be. Having one strong banana is a lot easier to manage and convert into advantageous scenarios than having to shuffle around two weaker bananas.

 

[AvengerV]

Ryujis Diddy was amazing. It was the most patient Diddy I've ever seen. He gave everyone a run for their tournament life and it was his first offline tournament and he is going to genesis. I'm super interested and hyped to see him there. I'm still thinking Diddy is Top5 and japan has quite potent Diddy playersto prove it I still see even more potential and technics that no one uses yet. Diddy will probably rise high in a later section of this game's life span.

Diddy is definitely a contender for Top 5. Amazing neutral game, amazing grab combos even at late percents,monkey flip which can also be B Reversed for map movement and mix ups, command grab, great range on F-Air to wall out opponents, D-Tilt combos into itself and becomes a kill setup into upsmash, banana which is an amazing projectile that allows you to follow up with any move and any kill move. Also that down taunt.... favorite in the game.

 

[C0rvus]

Damn, watching HaKii's Lucas has me feeling some kinda way. That character looks like he has such strong mixups into and out of grab, and in neutral. Plus, his anti-zoning seems more than capable. Anyone know how badly he loses to top tiers? Because color me interested.

 

[Radical Larry]

Damn, watching HaKii's Lucas has me feeling some kinda way. That character looks like he has such strong mixups into and out of grab, and in neutral. Plus, his anti-zoning seems more than capable. Anyone know how badly he loses to top tiers? Because color me interested.

It's whenever a character like Lucas or Doctor Mario get to win a tournament, when people usually expect them not to, people start praising them and believing they're so much better. Why? Why is there such an effect like that? What if a Link player suddenly got first place in a tournament, a national maybe? He'd be treated the same way and what's been said before about him (positively of course) would be said again and he'd be thought to be better than expected.

I don't really understand the mindset of people. I mean, I admit Lucas IS great and all that, but this has happened with characters before, like this literally happened with Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Doctor Mario and Cloud for example.

...and yet when Ganondorf wins a tournament...people don't even recognize it...

 

[C0rvus]

It's whenever a character like Lucas or Doctor Mario get to win a tournament, when people usually expect them not to, people start praising them and believing they're so much better. Why? Why is there such an effect like that? What if a Link player suddenly got first place in a tournament, a national maybe? He'd be treated the same way and what's been said before about him (positively of course) would be said again and he'd be thought to be better than expected.

I don't really understand the mindset of people. I mean, I admit Lucas IS great and all that, but this has happened with characters before, like this literally happened with Mario, Luigi, Meta Knight, Doctor Mario and Cloud for example.

...and yet when Ganondorf wins a tournament...people don't even recognize it...

Lucas is sort of on the fringe, people haven't collectively decided how good he is, so results for him are helpful in making up our minds. He's also not super popular, so again, footage is great, especially getting second at a big regional.

It's also a matter of seeing the character played well, which is almost always due some praise. I'm personally excited by HaKii's Lucas because I've been on the hunt for a main, and his Lucas was exciting to watch. If Link won a regional even, I'm sure his player would receive praise. It's not unusual for people to get excited for an unusual player or character doing well. The fact that it surprises you is telling.

Also Vermanubis winning stuff is cool, but we are also well aware of his status as a top player in his region. He lives in a region that doesn't get a lot of attention. Also Ganondorf is a character we already know is bad.

 

[Radical Larry]

Lucas is sort of on the fringe, people haven't collectively decided how good he is, so results for him are helpful in making up our minds. He's also not super popular, so again, footage is great, especially getting second at a big regional.

It's also a matter of seeing the character played well, which is almost always due some praise. I'm personally excited by HaKii's Lucas because I've been on the hunt for a main, and his Lucas was exciting to watch. If Link won a regional even, I'm sure his player would receive praise. It's not unusual for people to get excited for an unusual player or character doing well. The fact that it surprises you is telling.

Also Vermanubis winning stuff is cool, but we are also well aware of his status as a top player in his region. He lives in a region that doesn't get a lot of attention. Also Ganondorf is a character we already know is bad.

What if a Ganondorf were to win the next EVO or any international tournament? What if, by some degree of a miracle, a Ganondorf player were to win an international tournament. Or if the tournament's top 8 consisted ONLY of him? As slim as a chance it may be, you have to consider this as a probability and a possibility.

And Ganondorf as a character isn't necessarily bad at all. Low Mid-Tier is the worst he can really get, and that's still viable enough to win quite a lot in this game. If by theory Ganondorf fills a top 8 in an international or national, people would consider him a hidden high tier character.

Regardless, seeing Lucas being talked about but not Link being able to make top 8s recently does raise an eyebrow for me. If Link can make up to top 32s, and even top 3s, why do people end up saying he's "not as viable as" other characters? If he can clearly get top 8s in tournaments, he can certainly do well by an apparent standard. Regardless of tournament, if Link has the potential to reach top 8, who's to stop HIM from getting into top 8 in internationals or regionals?

You've got to consider these as likelihoods and possibilities. Sure, Ganondorf has a much lower chance, but Link himself has significantly higher chance to get to top 8 in these kinds of tournaments, no matter if local to international level. Link won third in the very same regional Lucas has won second, and Link is a MUCH rarer character to see in tournaments due to lower representation. You'll see more Lucas players than Link players (that's what I've seen so far in tournaments; for every one Link I see around 5 Lucas players).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Remember when I talked my friend bull****ting about Cloud? Because now that I think about it, isn't Shulk low tier? Monando Boi might end up beating him easily, better range, Arts can make Cloud's power mean nothing or outright gimp him. Then there's Smash Fsmash as an edge guard. Thoughts?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For what it's worth I don't think Shulk quite beats Cloud and I don't think he's quite low tier.

 

[adom4]

Re: Jigglypuff

I don't know what's sadder

The fact that a good chunk of the cast has a kill confirm on Jigglypuff out of grab, or the fact that it took us this long to figure it out

I tested it using Dorf with a Puff main yesterday and i could never get it to work, i'm not sure that it works for all of those characters

 

[C0rvus]

What if a Ganondorf were to win the next EVO or any international tournament? What if, by some degree of a miracle, a Ganondorf player were to win an international tournament. Or if the tournament's top 8 consisted ONLY of him? As slim as a chance it may be, you have to consider this as a probability and a possibility.

And Ganondorf as a character isn't necessarily bad at all. Low Mid-Tier is the worst he can really get, and that's still viable enough to win quite a lot in this game. If by theory Ganondorf fills a top 8 in an international or national, people would consider him a hidden high tier character.

Regardless, seeing Lucas being talked about but not Link being able to make top 8s recently does raise an eyebrow for me. If Link can make up to top 32s, and even top 3s, why do people end up saying he's "not as viable as" other characters? If he can clearly get top 8s in tournaments, he can certainly do well by an apparent standard. Regardless of tournament, if Link has the potential to reach top 8, who's to stop HIM from getting into top 8 in internationals or regionals?

You've got to consider these as likelihoods and possibilities. Sure, Ganondorf has a much lower chance, but Link himself has significantly higher chance to get to top 8 in these kinds of tournaments, no matter if local to international level. Link won third in the very same regional Lucas has won second, and Link is a MUCH rarer character to see in tournaments due to lower representation. You'll see more Lucas players than Link players (that's what I've seen so far in tournaments; for every one Link I see around 5 Lucas players).

If Ganondorf ever wins EVO I'll eat my hat. We can say a character is less viable because they, for example, have a worse matchup spread than most characters. If your character loses to every single top tier and/or common tournament threat, then good luck ever getting top 8 at a decent tournament. On top of needing to compensate for their bad character, you would have to outplay whatever top players there. I don't think Ganon will ever see EVO top 8 unless a top player brings him out for a game to pounce on an unsuspecting mid-tier player. But that's a pointless thing to say, because it's players that win, not characters.

If Ganon got top 8 at a major, no way would he suddenly be a sleeper high tier. That is not how that works at all. I'm done with these hypotheticals. HyruleHero getting 3rd is great, good for him. I liked his use of first hit back air into followups a lot. I personally don't care for Link so I didn't go out of my way to praise the guy (especially since I knew you would hop on that lol).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Remember when I talked my friend bull****ting about Cloud? Because now that I think about it, isn't Shulk low tier? Monando Boi might end up beating him easily, better range, Arts can make Cloud's power mean nothing or outright gimp him. Then there's Smash Fsmash as an edge guard. Thoughts?

Shulk has options. Armor destroys Cloud, and Jump easily gimps him. I have found that Smash and Speed are too risky in this MU, and Buster has limited use.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the subject of Diddy.

Japan has Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, and Rosa on their top tier.

Diddy STILL beats three of those characters. Yet somehow he's two tiers lower.

 

[Jams.]

Japanese tournaments generally don't have prize pools, which I feel creates more character specialists and people playing their favourite character instead of selling out to top tiers for $$$.

Some of the Japanese seemed to clue in on a good strategy vs Abadangos Metaknight (and any MK that purely goes for dash attack combos the entire game);

Stay near the ledge for about the first 50%. Dash attack doesnt combo into uair near the ledge since it stops MKs forward momentum. Of course, the ONE TIME someone moves closer to centre stage, he gets them with it for a stupidly early KO. If people had just a bit more patience I think it would work out well for them and just wait until that % window for the combo has passed.

It's a good strategy, but I don't think it can reliably beat MK. When players were doing this, Abadango was still able to get b-throws into a dash attack landing trap, cross-up roll ->grab->dthrow, SH uair against taller characters, and even cross-up roll ->utilt, which can reliably be converted into the death combo at mid percents. MK's edgeguarding is also pretty scary for a decent portion of the cast.

 

[Sonicninja115]

On the subject of Diddy.

Japan has Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, and Rosa on their top tier.

Diddy STILL beats three of those characters. Yet somehow he's two tiers lower.

ZSS, Sonic and Rosa? He doesn't beat Shiek and I don't think any of those MU's are that good anymore...

 

[PK Gaming]

Shulk has options. Armor destroys Cloud, and Jump easily gimps him. I have found that Smash and Speed are too risky in this MU, and Buster has limited use.

I seriously doubt it's that open and shut

I'd like to see it play out at high levels of play, but my gut tells me it won't be that easy for Shulk

 

[~ Gheb ~]

On the subject of Diddy.

Japan has Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, and Rosa on their top tier.

Diddy STILL beats three of those characters. Yet somehow he's two tiers lower.

In what parallel universe does Diddy beat Sonic?

 

[L9999]

Japanese tournaments generally don't have prize pools, which I feel creates more character specialists and people playing their favourite character instead of selling out to top tiers for $$$.

And that's why we have Mii Gunner, Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, and Ganon play in Japan then.

 

[Pazzo.]

I know I'm late to the Street Fighter conversation, but who would our "charge" characters be in SSB4?

 

[RonNewcomb]

To say the truth, I love these SF comparisons. It helps us understand the playstyle and the strengths and weaknesses in an understanble way. I mean, the archetypes are bit more convoluted since Sakurai didn't want to make a straight fighting game for reasons unknown, but at least we see a model to base off of.

OK, I'll play SF Comparison bingo.

Link is Gouken. Sluggish, hard-hitting punishes with a good projectile game. Shuts down large slow hurtboxes (like every grappler ever) pretty hard. In his best MUs can effectively stand still and win, only dashing forward to complete a punish. Loses to speedy harrassment which can't be outzoned and is too hard to pin down for a good punish. Struggles to get off of the lower half of the tier list as a result. But a nice guy IRL. You'd let him date your relatives.

Toon Link is Juri. Same moveset as above but trades power for speed. Short-range projectiles at all crazy angles, a stored projectile with super-fast release, and some of the best non-special anti-airs in the game. Respectable tier list position. Semi-fragile and there's a learning curve to get the most out of those projectiles. Difficult to win with at mid-skill level ensures few players main them, but watching a dedicated main put in work is a joy to watch.

Marth is Fei Long. Footsies with a special-move autocombo that pushes toward end of stage. DP-like get-off-me move with invincible startup. Fei's contender-for-best-in-game Focus Attack has fast charge-up and great horizontal range, and is used nearly identically to Marth's contender-for-best-in-game Counter. Difference in tier list position is directly proportional to how much their opponents like to stay on the ground.

I know I'm late to the Street Fighter conversation, but who would our "charge" characters be in SSB4?

SF's charge-move characters are so because their moves are really good, so the charge requirement balances them. The same is true in Smash: Samus's Charge Shot, Lucario's Aura Sphere, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Cloud's Limit Break, all are great moves gated by a charge requirement.

Some of the Japanese seemed to clue in on a good strategy vs Abadangos Metaknight (and any MK that purely goes for dash attack combos the entire game); Stay near the ledge for about the first 50%. Dash attack doesnt combo into uair near the ledge since it stops MKs forward momentum. Of course, the ONE TIME someone moves closer to centre stage, he gets them with it for a stupidly early KO. If people had just a bit more patience I think it would work out well for them and just wait until that % window for the combo has passed.

Smash 4's MK defeated by planking. Oh the sweet delicious irony.

 

[FullMoon]

I thought planking was holding on to the ledge repeatedly instead of just standing next to it.

 

[S_B]

Yes, because you cherry picked the ones that work.

Air release is +10 frame advantage, a bunch of the listed moves take over 10 frames on their own before even considering jumpsquat.

Why are we even discussing this?

The simple fact is that JP sucks. Why sit here and waste walls of text debating the magnitude of her suckiness?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I know I'm late to the Street Fighter conversation, but who would our "charge" characters be in SSB4?

None. Charge is an input, not a playstyle.

Specifically, charge moves are typically better than others, and that's to compensate the fact that you have to charge by either holding back or down, which means you're limited in your movement. There's nothing like this in Smash, characters all have the same inputs.


Also there's no way you can beat MK by just sitting close to the ledge. That's silly.

 

[Crudele]

Regarding Gibus v Hakii, Gibus simply took advantage of Hakii's awful airdodge habit/nerves after dthrow. I find that with greninja, dthrow > fair frequently gets airdodged out of first try. Once you see that, waiting out the airdodge for the fair or run up usmash is a fantastic option.

Jumping out of greninjas dthrow seems to be the best option for the other player, although you can definitely get hit if greninja double jump fairs. Greninja dthrow almost feels like a 33/33/33.