Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TTTTTsd]

Nice, LordWilliam. Do you know Cloud's initial dash speed? That's what I meant when I mentioned speed in that post. Cloud's specs with fox trot, dash->shield, perfect pivot, etc. are all great/respectable. I don't think Cloud's dash is as dangerous as some other characters out of a dash since he doesn't blow you up from a single dash attack or grab, but any character would drool to have that dash frame data.


Limit Climhazzard:
Very good at the beginning with some invincibility frames 5-12, but it soon loses its hitbox after 9 or so frames. If Cloud isn't careful and just upBs from a significant distance, he can be hit out of it. Drill dairs have an especially easy time.

Cloud then has to try to mix things up with an earlier limit climhazzard or using limit side/neutral B with aerials to prevent opponents from hitting him. You can even hit him before the hitbox comes out (thus losing limit). If Cloud hits you with it, he can possibly combo after snapping to the ledge, but that's it. It's worth it to pressure him even when he has limit upB.

Limit Cross Slash:
26 damage and -9 on shield drop. That's not enough for most characters to punish. Some may barely be able to if the dash+shield momentum counteracted the limit cross slash.

Limit cross slash hits on frames 10/14/22/25/37. You can only reliably spot dodge and roll after the 4th hit (may need a bit more testing to be 100% sure), possibly getting a light punish. It may be worth the risk at lower %, since you will only take like 10-13 damage if you could land the grab. Overall, this isn't going to get punished often blocked unless the Cloud made it very obvious.

I think with time that people will dodge inbetween hits and punish poor usage of this attack. The others are pretty straightforward to deal with, though both are still dangerous. Dealing with limit climhazzard and limit cross slash effectively will help against most Clouds out there. Hopefully, it gets to the point where Cloud players will opt to save their limit break options for proper setups. Limit cross slash does appear just that safe right now, though.

IMO Cloud's Dash is what changes his ground game from poor to respectable/decent. It really improves his mixups and options DRASTICALLY and also gives him really strong grounded movement (beyond his already incredibly fast run speed with and without Limit).

PS. Where do you think Cloud stands atm? You've spoken a lot about him but I can't quite seem to gauge your impressions of him. From what I can tell they seem positive though, it's like you said, the more you play the better he gets.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Late response, but:

Well, it's not specifically fox-trotting, but Cloud is tied for fastest dash in the game in terms of total frames. I did some research and found these numbers for characters who had dashes that are 24 frames or less:

Cloud: 17 frames
Lucario: 17 frames
G&W: 17 frames
ZSS: 19 frames
Diddy: 19 frames
Fox: 21 frames
Sheik: 21 frames
Mario: 21 frames
Dr. Mario: 21 frames
Luigi: 21 frames
Peach: 21 frames
Rosalina: 21 frames
Mewtwo: 21 frames
ROB: 21 frames
Olimar: 21 frames
Falco: 22 frames
Dedede: 23 frames
Zelda: 24 frames
Kirby: 24 frames

So with Cloud, if you tap forward to dash, and immediately return to neutral, you can perform any action on frame 18 (normal moves won't result in a dash attack).

No one's faster than Cloud in that regard, and only 2 characters tie him, with Cloud getting the most distance compared to Lucario or G&W. So he not only has a good fox-trot, but he can also dash back after dashing forward as a feint without going into a slide first, as well as just continually dashing forward. Unlike characters like Ryu or Little Mac who have good fox-trots but terrible endlag on their dashes (though Ryu's run to shield is pretty good). Personally I think he probably has the best fox-trot in the game thanks to this.

Are these the frames in which a character cannot shield?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Nice, LordWilliam. Do you know Cloud's initial dash speed? That's what I meant when I mentioned speed in that post.

Isn't that what dash to neutral (the frames I posted) is? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by speed (since I'm not sure how to determine speed in terms of distance travelled, if that's what you meant).

EDIT: Cloud's initial dash is 10 frames, he shields on frame 11, if that's what you meant.

Are these the frames in which a character cannot shield?

Cannot shield and a normal move will result in a dash attack.

This is different from run to shield though, which I haven't checked everyone's numbers for.

 

[FullMoon]

Seems like good Greninja results are beginning to show up in NA through Gibus and also Venia who has been placing pretty well at Nebulous recently, even beating Jtails once.

 

[PK Gaming]

Re: Jigglypuff

I don't know what's sadder

The fact that a good chunk of the cast has a kill confirm on Jigglypuff out of grab, or the fact that it took us this long to figure it out

 

[san.]

Isn't that what dash to neutral (the frames I posted) is? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by speed (since I'm not sure how to determine speed in terms of distance travelled, if that's what you meant).

EDIT: Cloud's initial dash is 10 frames, he shields on frame 11, if that's what you meant.



Cannot shield and a normal move will result in a dash attack.

This is different from run to shield though, which I haven't checked everyone's numbers for.

Whoops, I meant how fast they are moving, like being as fast as Fox.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Re: Jigglypuff

I don't know what's sadder

The fact that a good chunk of the cast has a kill confirm on Jigglypuff out of grab, or the fact that it took us this long to figure it out

The fact that Jiggs gets killed out of grab imo. Jigglypuff is a pretty lackluster character who just feels...There. Look at her customs, how many are actually useful? I say we buff the puff. Also, Sing should go through shields dammit

 

[Thinkaman]

Boy, things sure are looking bleak for Jigglypuff players who don't know how to double jump.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Re: Jigglypuff

I don't know what's sadder

The fact that a good chunk of the cast has a kill confirm on Jigglypuff out of grab, or the fact that it took us this long to figure it out

lol this is lolzy. Almost some Brawl stuff in here.

And on the smash/SF comparisons I wonder who are the closest characters to Viper and the twins Yun/Yang are along with Sagat and Rose ?

 

[FullMoon]

How the hell could Greninja even hit Jigglypuff with F-Air after a grab release?

Counting jumpsquat it's a 20 frame action. Is Jiggs that bad? Lol

 

[L9999]

Air release is when you pummel until the opponent frees itself or when you just have your opponent grabbed then it frees?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

lol this is lolzy. Almost some Brawl stuff in here.

And on the smash/SF comparisons I wonder who are the closest characters to Viper and the twins Yun/Yang are?

Viper may be ZSS, or maybe Bayonetta (hard speculation on that last one). I didn't play much SFIV, but from what I recall Viper has a not-spectacular neutral game but good vortex setups where she can keep you guessing with crossups and the like so she can reset her combos for days. Also a lot of precision combos like hP > TK feint > hP.

Another parallel: They all have weaponry in their high heels.

EDIT:

Air release is when you pummel until the opponent frees itself or when you just have your opponent grabbed then it frees?

Air release is when the opponent frees themself from a grab in a manner that puts them in the air instead of on the ground. It's based on relative character height and/or positioning. Anyone grabbing at the ledge can do this, as can most tall characters that are grabbing someone short. Since Jigglypuff is quite short, I guess she gets an air release from basically everyone.

 

[PK Gaming]

Boy, things sure are looking bleak for Jigglypuff players who don't know how to double jump.

You didn't think the people testing this would be that careless, did you?

https://vine.co/v/OE7zeQmWw7I

You can plainly Jigglypuff being hit before her air release animation finishes

 

[wedl!!]

I've heard that Viper is a Smash character in Street Fighter and I can definitely see the parallels. Her neutral is bursty and she's focused on traps/resets.

Characters she's closest to are Zero Suit, Bayonetta, Game and Watch and maybe Falco.

 

[Lavani]

You didn't think the people testing this would be that careless, did you?

https://vine.co/v/OE7zeQmWw7I

You can plainly Jigglypuff being hit before her air release animation finishes

Yes, because you cherry picked the ones that work.

Air release is +10 frame advantage, a bunch of the listed moves take over 10 frames on their own before even considering jumpsquat.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yes, because you cherry picked the ones that work.

Air release is +10 frame advantage, a bunch of the listed moves take over 10 frames on their own before even considering jumpsquat.

Does that 10 frame advantage take into account the fact that airdodging takes less time out of hitstun than jump or attack? Or does grab release not follow those rules? (Alternately, would it matter?)

 

[PK Gaming]

Yes, because you cherry picked the ones that work.

Air release is +10 frame advantage, a bunch of the listed moves take over 10 frames on their own before even considering jumpsquat.

I didn't intend to cherry pick, I was just refuting the argument that double jump is an immediate answer to this. It isn't.

 

[Yikarur]

Grab Release is +10 on Air release. Because jump squads are at least 4 frames almost nothing on this list is true.

E: too much ninja

 

[Aaron1997]

A update on Umebura Genesis cup the stream be on Abadangos Twitch and not SHI http://www.twitch.tv/abadango

 

[Lavani]

Does that 10 frame advantage take into account the fact that airdodging takes less time out of hitstun than jump or attack? Or does grab release not follow those rules? (Alternately, would it matter?)

Release doesn't follow those rules.

Ground release/releasing animation can be acted out of on frame 30, air release animation can be acted out of on frame 40 (or earlier if you land on a platform/slope). Simple as that.

 

[Thinkaman]

I literally have the game open and tested these when I posted that. I could only get ZSS, Shulk, and optimized LM to work, and I could SDI out of the former two.

She can almost get away from LM; actually, hold on a sec, rest might work...

Edit: It's like ZSS, she can Rest out of it, but LM can space the up-b so as to not get hit by it.

 

[Game7a1]

I literally have the game open and tested these when I posted that. I could only get ZSS, Shulk, and optimized LM to work, and I could SDI out of the former two.

She can almost get away from LM; actually, hold on a sec, rest might work...

Edit: It's like ZSS, she can Rest out of it, but LM can space the up-b so as to not get hit by it.

Wait, Rest can hit LM's Up-B? I always thought it couldn't based on my experiences (because his hand is so small).
Well, the more you know, I suppose.

 

[PK Gaming]

I literally have the game open and tested these when I posted that. I could only get ZSS, Shulk, and optimized LM to work, and I could SDI out of the former two.

She can almost get away from LM; actually, hold on a sec, rest might work...

Edit: It's like ZSS, she can Rest out of it, but LM can space the up-b so as to not get hit by it.

Hmm, I stand corrected then

Either way it wasn't a big deal, because in the end it's goddamn jigglypuff

 

[TurboLink]

Wait, Rest can hit LM's Up-B? I always thought it couldn't based on my experiences (because his hand is so small).
Well, the more you know, I suppose.

Rest can also hit Little Mac's Jab. At 0:12 and 1:20.

 

[Game7a1]

Rest can also hit Little Mac's Jab. At 0:12 and 1:20.

I know Rest works with rapid jabs, but I wouldn't have thought Little Mac's up-B was Rest-able.
Regardless, should we return to the previous topic?

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait, Rest can hit LM's Up-B? I always thought it couldn't based on my experiences (because his hand is so small).
Well, the more you know, I suppose.

She can't; at least, I haven't been able to do it.

Hmm, I stand corrected then

Either way it wasn't a big deal, because in the end it's goddamn jigglypuff

I stand corrected too; when I started re-testing (when this was first posted), I seriously doubted that Mac could make it up to Jiggs in time. But indeed, he (barely) can.

 

[Djent]

In approximately 3 hours (10:30 a.m. Tokyo time), qualifying rounds for the Umebura Genesis Cup should begin on SHI Gaming's channel. While this is a fairly small event (capped at 80 players), the majority of Kanto's top talent will be turning up, many of whom are seeking last-minute Genesis practice for both singles and doubles. Because they're running two events for a change, singles is projected to finish by 2:30 a.m EST, which is a nice change for those of you who live in the U.S. and don't want to stay up too late on a Sunday.

Spoiler: Notable players by pool

A: Choco , Kenkenpa
B: Shu , mow
C: Abadango , Haruki
D: Rain , Pon
E: Nyanko
F: Kirihara , YOC , Gomamugitya
G: Nietono , Dainosuke
H: taranito , Kept
I: Umeki , El
J: Brood , Tsu- , Pasutaa
K: KEN , Paseriman
L: Daiki , Aiba
M: Nasubi , Kamemushi , Tamanyaso
N: Yui , Salena
O: Yuzu , Octo
P: T , Eim

UPDATE: it's being streamed on Abadango's channel.

 

[Yonder]

They were really resistant to the idea of their (then) top tier losing to a low tier. It looked bad for the character (and was bad for the character). Their arguments were: 1) Samus is Spamus so we shut her missiles down with cyclone, therefore shutting down the character. 2) Zair will hit us but our fireball will hit her too, so we shut her zoning down. 3) Nair breaks her combos. On the flip side, Samus forces him to approach (mostly with CS charging and long range missiles) and wrecks Luigi midrange, his only real option being fireball, and CS wrecks him if he fireballs. CS is like the bane of his existence. Bad combos by Samus will get naired, but when she wins neutral, edge guards him, etc, it doesn't matter as much. Missiles only get punished if we use them midrange, and why would we use missiles midrange?

Results now speak with 2 top Luigis losijng to Samus, she probably has an advantage on him. There are harder matchups out there for him, but he loses this one as results speak. We haven't updated the Samus matchup in a while, might have to do that...

In retrospect though, charge shot eats Luigi alive. It's just one of those moves he cannot answer to. Charizard's jab is another one that shuts Luigi down, Sheik's needles too.

Oh, and M2 got 4th solo in a 100+ tourney? Wow, that does probably warrent him being a mid tier now. Let's see if Abadango adds icing on the cake.

 

[Thinkaman]

After reflecting on those HaKii matches, I wouldn't mind talking about Lucas some. In my eyes this is a transparently good character now, with nothing disqualifying him from being a solid upper-mid character.

• He has the neutral tools. (Zair is sort of absurd, and PK Fire does the job.)
• He has the close range boxing game on the ground.
• He has a low % combo game that will never make Mario envious, but might cause him to nod with respect.
• He has a modest hybrid of a standing and tether grab with timings closer to the former.
• He has a modestly flexible set of recovery options, thanks to down-b and tether.
• He has great cheese kill threat with u-smash.
• He has arguably the best grab reward in the game; depending on how you are measuring, only Bowser, DK, ZSS, and Ness compare.

Lucas's only downside seems to be an often limited punish game. (He's not fast, his up-smash isn't generally an option, his dash attack is nothing to write about, and none of his specials or aerials stand out in this role. Grab is literally his entire life here.)

Buffed nair can't be understated. It gave Lucas that rewarding combo game, and consistent damage on a character with consistent kills out of grab is... valuable, to put it mildly. It amplified his previously poor OoS game, and gave him a safe cross-up option.

It starts getting difficult to justify Lucas as superior previously acknowledged solid characters; lots of aspects about him (like his recovery options) are good-but-not-great. But he seemingly has alongside Bowser, zoomed past the rest of the vaguely viable crowd.

 

[Ffamran]

Seems like good Greninja results are beginning to show up in NA through Gibus and also Venia who has been placing pretty well at Nebulous recently, even beating Jtails once.

Minnesota's Shinjoebi, I think that's how his tag is spelled, switched from Roy? to Greninja. Man's results skyrocketed apparently. Welp, now we await a sudden bloom of Peach players since while Peach does well with players like SlayerZ like how Greninja did well with aMSa, Peach players haven't had a massive blooming like how Greninja players are rushing out of the shadows (in the US).

Edit: Man's results did not skyrocket. He's just doing well.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Okay, to expand upon my previous post I went and put together the dash to neutral and dash to shield frames for the cast. Ordered by frame speed.

Spoiler: Dash to Neutral

17 frames
17 frames
17 frames
19 frames
19 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
21 frames
22 frames
22 frames
23 frames
23 frames
23 frames
23 frames
23 frames
23 frames
23 frames
25 frames
25 frames
25 frames
26 frames
26 frames
27 frames
27 frames
27 frames
27 frames
27 frames
27 frames
28 frames
28 frames
29 frames
29 frames
29 frames
29 frames
29 frames
30 frames
30 frames
31 frames
33 frames
33 frames
33 frames
37 frames
38 frames
44 frames

Spoiler: Dash to Shield

7 frames
8 frames
9 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
10 frames
11 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
12 frames
13 frames
13 frames
13 frames
13 frames
13 frames
14 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
15 frames
16 frames
16 frames
16 frames
16 frames

Note, Shulk's Monado Arts and Cloud's Limit do not affect their dash to shield or dash to neutral frames.

Whoops, I meant how fast they are moving, like being as fast as Fox.

Fox goes faster than Cloud does when fox-trotting, though the difference isn't huge. Can't really give specific numbers on it though.

 

[FullMoon]

Minnesota's Shinjoebi, I think that's how his tag is spelled, switched from Roy? to Greninja. Man's results skyrocketed apparently. Welp, now we await a sudden bloom of Peach players since while Peach does well with players like SlayerZ like how Greninja did well with aMSa, Peach players haven't had a massive blooming like how Greninja players are rushing out of the shadows (in the US).

Is that so? Is there any links to his results or any videos?

 

[Dagon97]

Djent @juddy96 Jucchan
Besides last week's VS Weekly will some Japanese players be coming to American tournaments before Genesis?

 

[Jucchan]

Djent @juddy96 Jucchan
Besides last week's VS Weekly will some Japanese players be coming to American tournaments before Genesis?

Smash@SCU: Wombo Wednesday #21 on Jan 13th will have players like Ranai, Komorikiri, and 9B.

 

[Radical Larry]

I was just looking at SW 62 results, thanks to the links.

1. Gibus
2. HaKii ()
3. Hyrule Hero
4. Mew^2
5. CosmicCosmos
5. SaSSy
7. Senpai
7. Gyo

What the hell happened in Texas two weeks ago?

Link. At 3rd place. In a tournament. Next to top tiers like Falcon, Pika and ZSS.

...this is a dream come true...

@Smash_Brother I'm not deciding to main Bowser, but I also have to tell you I play some other pretty mean characters. I often have my character prioritizing set up as such: 3-3-2. By this I have 3 mains, which are Link, Falco and Bowser, three secondaries, which are Little Mac, R.O.B. and Ganondorf, and finally 2 pockets, who are Peach and Samus. I often play the less mobile or harder-hitting characters because they feel better in my opinion. They're better to control and suit how I want to play in the game, plus, they get me some results at times online and offline.

 

[19_]

I was just looking at SW 62 results, thanks to the links.

1. Gibus
2. HaKii ()
3. Hyrule Hero
4. Mew^2
5. CosmicCosmos
5. SaSSy
7. Senpai
7. Gyo

What the hell happened in Texas two weeks ago?

I know this late but the reason these result are like this is because denti (,, ) and dakpo() were not there.

Still nice to see though.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I know this late but the reason these result are like this is because denti (,, ) and dakpo() were not there.

Still nice to see though.

Denti was there, he got eliminated by Mew^2 and Hyrule.

 

[L9999]

http://www.twitch.tv/abadango
Watching Umebura Genesis Cup. Mii Gunner players exist! And Umeki shows how Peach doesn't give a **** about her opponent's recovery.

 

[Ffamran]

I know this late but the reason these result are like this is because denti (,, ) and dakpo() were not there.

Still nice to see though.

Denti was there; he placed 9th. Bracket: http://tloc.challonge.com/SW62.

Edit: 'd.

 

[Yikarur]

Lucas is fine. Probably high mid tier. I'm playing him since his release because I love mother 3 and I loved Lucas in Brawl. He got a lot better through the last patch. The standing grab ending lag reduction does a loooot. And the damage buff on his nair, and buffs on his fair and ftilt turn him into a muuuch better character.

I still miss magnet pull tho....