Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Jucchan]

I'm surprised he put Robin so high without knowing any notable Robins (Japan doesn't have many good Robins, right? There was that one guy at Evo but that's all I know...). Most people without good Robins in the area tend to put him as bottom 15.

This is indeed the biggest surprise of the tier list. As far as I can tell, the most well known Japanese Robin, Mr. II, has never gotten past pools at Umebura.

 

[Thinkaman]

...Who are you/whats your tag?

I'm confused by this question. My tag is just Thinkaman.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm guessing that with tipper F-Air with Greninja, Abadango was refering to just spacing it? Because F-Air doesn't have a sweetspot, it just flat-out does 14% no matter how you hit with it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-12/
Abadango has posted his 1.1.2 tier list, translation of his notes below. Abadango did not write notes for every character.

A+
A
A-
B+
B
C

A: Characters that can win a tournament solo. The majority of them can compete against Sheik.
I wasn't sure whether to put her in her own tier, but I put her tied with ZSS because of the patch buffs. Sheik is still better in tight situations though. I think n-air got a lot better because of the patch. The pose of n-air is the pose of smash dominance.
Although she doesn't have many moves to use during the rise of her jump, her aerials during the falling portion of her jump are just brutal. n-air, up-air, and b-air at the lowest altitude are all -3F so you can't do anything about it. If you get hit by n-air or up-air you just get killed by down-b meteor or up-air up-air up-b. Her recovery and edge-guarding are also really good.
I don't think he got buffed with the patch (I actually don't know), but he can fight most of the high tiers and has a number of really good matchups so I think he can be 3rd.
Kirihara told me that Luma's shieldstun got decreased because it counts as a projectile. In return, Luma acts out of Rosalina getting grabbed faster. Those are pretty much the only changes so Rosalina remains strong.

Note: Anything after Rosaluma is not ordered within tiers

His d-air non-finishing hitboxes lock you into shield now, and he didn't get any nerfs. If anything, his landing aerials and his smashes got better.
The only negative change was that you can punish bowling ball now, and his jab got stronger. I think that the decreased shield health is a plus for Villager.
He went up a tier because of the patch. Against him you can't shield, approach, or punish landings with single-hit moves. It must be hard to play against him with characters that have to get close to kill or that let him stay with over 100% rage easily. I recommend characters that kill early, that can gimp his recovery, or that can block out his aerial approaches to use against him. His worst matchup is Sonic?
It took time to decide where to put him. Going purely by the number of advantageous matchups I would have put him 5th, but he struggles against Sheik and Sonic. He has a little more chance against them than the lower tier characters. Even considering this, his high ability to take care of lower tier character earns him this position.
Did his f-smash, f-air, and QA get stronger? He must be better at getting out of bad situations now. You can't really kill unless attempt edge-guards as much as ESAM. Pika gets extra Abadango points for seeming to have an even-ish Sheik matchup.
His f-air and d-tilt tipper must be better on shield now. Extra Abadango points for seeming to have an even-ish Sheik matchup.
The violence of b-air and u-air are even stronger.
Does her d-air lock you into shield better now? You can probably still shield against it though. It would be crazy if she got more shieldstun on her f-air or b-air.
He's been making the "I'm only pseudo-high tier face" but he's really been strong since the beginning of the game. The patch made ledge let-go to f-air better. Up-smash to cover landings is criminally good. It's a shame he doesn't have any super advantageous matchups.
My opinion of him keep going down. He has high damage output and punishes landing well, but he gets destroyed and edge-guarded too easily. The lower shield strength probably makes it easier for him to get in though.

B: They probably can't win a tournament but can make Top 8.

You can't land with d-air anymore because of the higher shieldstun. In exchange, the time between n-air 1 to n-air 2 is now 6F, isn't very punishable, and is better to throw out. Making the opponent shield up-air better now too. If only he had a way to combo a shield-lock into waft!
He doesn't have d-throw Cyclone anymore, but he seems to still have throw combos and so is still good? He gets wrecked by some characters but his ability to wreck others is also high.
I don't have much experience with him, are Pikmin projectiles? If so, it must be harder to throw out f-smash because of the shorter shieldstun and shieldslide.
Rock-paper-scissors with b-air, wavebounce Aura Sphere and Force Palm!
Up-smash is better on shield now. Extra Abadango points for being able to land with b-air. He's also one of the d-throw up-air characters. He should get more move-staling.
He doesn't completely lose against the top tiers but is still nonetheless at a disadvantage. He would become really good with throw combos.
Tipper f-air is strong! -8F at lowest height (New product)! He can throw out aerials better now (probably).
Dash attack is more usable now, so he can rack up damage better. Is trampoline from n-air guaranteed now? (n-air is -5F fresh) Weaker shields mean Boss Galaxian shield locks are better.
It's better now for him to make you shield the duck? Weaker shields give him more opportunities.
It's dangerous now to shield Metal Blade by accident and get your shield weakened (I think). You shouldn't take hits from Crash Bomb either. If only his infinites were easier to do and Metal Blade always disappeared at the same timing...

C:

The character whose life depends on Cargo Throw up-air. He can't land, get up from the ledge, or recover.
Levin Sword is much stronger now. If you stale down-throw you can do down-throw up-air, which is good. I think he can be top half.

I see more Ike buffs in the future if this is common belief in Japan.

I like this.

Poor Robin, Dr.Mario, Bowser Jr. and DHD though. Characters that could use more buffs that might get screwed out of them. Always interesting to see how different two metagames can be for the same game. Like, I understand its different, I just have trouble believing its truly THAT different.

 

[Jucchan]

I'm guessing that with tipper F-Air with Greninja, Abadango was refering to just spacing it? Because F-Air doesn't have a sweetspot, it just flat-out does 14% no matter how you hit with it.

In Japanese, anything spaced at maximum distance is "tippered."

 

[TDK]

For what it's worth, here's a list for you guys to argue about. Probably.

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B tier: ( / )
C+ tier:
C tier:
C- tier:
D tier:
E tier:
F tier:

No customs. I think I have everyone, but if I don't point it out, please. there are 55 characters in this game.

General Tier Groupings:

S: Best characters in the game. Characters that can very easily win big tournaments as a solo main.

A+/A: Characters that can get top 8 at big tournaments as a solo main, but have trouble actually taking the title.

B: "Upper Mid" characters that can get top 8 at big tournaments as a solo main with some difficulty.

C+: "Mid tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments with difficulty, often somewhat of an anomaly.

C/C-: "mid tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments as secondaries, generally impossible to make it in as solo mained characters due to numerous disadvantages.

D: "low tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments as secondaries, considered impossible to make it in as solo mained characters due to numerous disadvantages.

E: Impossible to get into top 8 at a big tournament at all. Can win locals, though is rare as a solo main. These characters in general are very rare, even at the local level, but have things that keep them being out of the bottom.

F: Impossible to win any tournament at any level.

Now, for some opinions:

- Rosalina: I honestly believe she is the number 2 character in the game. She's got the best defensive play in the game and a slew of attacks that either help with her defensive game or give her a plethora of lethal kill options, such as up air, or her quick, low-lag smashes, and Luma put her at the top.

- Yoshi: Results don't lie at this point. If Yoshi really is as good as the general opinion has him, then why isn't he getting results as good as the rest of the A tier, or even everyone above him in the B tier?

Those are all the "glaring" ones I can see from my prospective, feel free to comment!

Also, on aba's tier list, is every character not ranked "unviable"? Also, are Pit and Dark Pit grouped together?

 

[Jucchan]

Also, on aba's tier list, is every character not ranked "unviable"? Also, are Pit and Dark Pit grouped together?

Anyone not listed is unviable. Dark Pit is either grouped with Pit or Abadango simply forgot he existed.

 

[Kaladin]

Anyone not listed is unviable. Dark Pit is either grouped with Pit or Abadango simply forgot he existed.

All of Japan is conspiring to get Ike buffed to SSS tier, better than brawl MK.

Serious question: are there any Ikes in Japan?

 

[TDK]

All of Japan is conspiring to get Ike buffed to SSS tier, better than brawl MK.

Serious question: are there any Ikes in Japan?

I don't believe there are any. Ikes are pretty rare over here, too. The only ones I can think of are San, Ryo, and Ryuga. [I'm sure theres one I'm missing...]

 

[Jucchan]

All of Japan is conspiring to get Ike buffed to SSS tier, better than brawl MK.

Serious question: are there any Ikes in Japan?

Nojinko got Top 48 at Sumabato 5, but I think that's it.

 

[ARGHETH]

All of Japan is conspiring to get Ike buffed to SSS tier, better than brawl MK.

Serious question: are there any Ikes in Japan?

The thing is, there's no Robins there either...

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B tier: ( / )
C+ tier:
C tier:
C- tier:
D tier:
E tier:
F tier:

And now I have the opposite problem. Why's Robin not on this one?

 

[FullMoon]

I remember hearing that Nairo impressed some people in Japan with his Robin when he went there. So that might have gotten Abadango's attention.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now assuming we agree that Lucario actually gets the most off rage and you think Bowser is actually second, I have to disagree. I think Ganon gets the most out of it. His tilts are just as fast, can confirm tilts out of side b if the player misses the tech, down b can kill, all his aerials can kill. That's who I think gets the second most from rage, but 50+ characters I may be forgetting someone.

Biggest objective benefactors of Rage are Link and Mario.

Link has what I call a lot of medium strong high bkb moves, which in short means at high rage, basically everything becomes a kill move. Which is great for Link, given he has a lot of moves for different situations that aren't exactly hugely unsafe. He also does a lot of damage on everything, meaning he can be fairly indiscriminate about picking moves to kill people with when he has Rage.

Mario's combo game tends to not work properly without prior percent being tacked onto his opponent, and Rage largely solves this for him, and his other problem which is not having a lot of KO moves. Mario's aerials for the large part basically depend on Rage to be viable kill moves.

Ganon doesn't really need Rage to kill people, it just helps him kill people earlier but he doesn't necessarily have the same freedom to throw out safe moves as someone like Link. Furthermore Lucario doesn't count, as Aura is a completely separate mechanic from Rage.

 

[Jams.]

Biggest objective benefactors of Rage are Link and Mario.

Link has what I call a lot of medium strong high bkb moves, which in short means at high rage, basically everything becomes a kill move. Which is great for Link, given he has a lot of moves for different situations that aren't exactly hugely unsafe. He also does a lot of damage on everything, meaning he can be fairly indiscriminate about picking moves to kill people with when he has Rage.

Mario's combo game tends to not work properly without prior percent being tacked onto his opponent, and Rage largely solves this for him, and his other problem which is not having a lot of KO moves. Mario's aerials for the large part basically depend on Rage to be viable kill moves.

Ganon doesn't really need Rage to kill people, it just helps him kill people earlier but he doesn't necessarily have the same freedom to throw out safe moves as someone like Link. Furthermore Lucario doesn't count, as Aura is a completely separate mechanic from Rage.

I feel like Luma has more moves with high BKB, most notably uair and dair. Rosalina is likely one of the biggest beneficiaries of rage just because of how silly Luma can get. We've all either experienced, performed, or seen the crazy things Luma does with rage, so I don't think I need to elaborate.

 

[Dre89]

To help us understand how characters are viable. Wrong thread sorry.



Ok, let me take a crack at this. Why does Bowser not have high level rep? Probably because he isn't the better choice. I for one don't like his movement and that's why I don't play him, but I like Ganon's movement and I play him a little bit because of that. Movement as in ledge canceling wizard's foot for edge guarding and side b range cover on ledge get up.

So what are his approach options? Run up side B, Neutral B? Dash attack doesn't pass through shields and have lower end lag like some other dash attacks.

What are his mix ups? I know his tilts are fast and can kill, but he can be camped pretty hard I feel.

Neutral B and down tilt are probably his best spacing tools? However the fire needs time to recharge and faster characters could probably jump over the hit box on down tilt and hit him with a falling bair or empty hop grab.

His kill options consist of? Smashes, kinda slow, but the armor on up smash could catch some people off guard. His tilts are possibly his best kill options along with bair. I don't know the speed of bair but I know it kills at decent percents.

Now assuming we agree that Lucario actually gets the most off rage and you think Bowser is actually second, I have to disagree. I think Ganon gets the most out of it. His tilts are just as fast, can confirm tilts out of side b if the player misses the tech, down b can kill, all his aerials can kill. That's who I think gets the second most from rage, but 50+ characters I may be forgetting someone.

Basically everything you said about Bowser was completely wrong. Pretty much confirms my suspicions that people who say he's bad know nothing about his meta.

His main approach options on people playing defensively are dash attack and dash grab. Dash attack is unreactable and has enormous range when spaced, and it eats rolls. It's unsafe but you should never do it out of a run, but rather as burst mix-up. Dash grab has ridiculous range, it's the only non-tether dashgrab I know of that can 'beat' hitboxes due to the enormous range when spaced properly. Also has decent reward because bthrow plus two pummels is about 20%.

His mix ups are his tilts, firebreath, side, fair and ac bair. These moves are a tier below his bread-and butter moves in terms of usage, and are more for reads and perceived higher reward. What makes his mix-ups good is that he can threaten shields with dash grab and sideb, so the opponent has to mix up their defensive options to. Firebreath is mainly for free damage in certain advantaged scenarios (like edgeguarding or catching landings) or to pressure people playing reactively.

His best spacing tools are jab and pivot grab. Both are quite safe whilst posing some threat. None of his tilts are true spacing options because they're too unsafe relative to jab to be used for that purpose. The only exception is up-angled ftilt, which can be used for spacing against aerial approaches.

His best kill options are frame 9 bair, and frame 11 downb, which can confirm from his frame 7 jab. Perfect pivot jab is a very safe set-up into a downb kill. These are his best kill options because they're relatively fast and kill pre100. Then a tier below that you have usmash, which is safe on aerial oponents, dair and sideb. These are all fairly reliable but don't kill pre100 unless you have rage. If you factor in rage, then basically all of his tilts and aerials because viable kill options.

 

[Ghostbone]

MK gets the most off rage and I'm surprised we haven't already figured this out by now.

MK is literally the only character who if he gets the first stock can immediately kill you again. He's also the only character who if he falls a full stock behind he can just kill you again when you respawn.
Rage roof combo is even more silly than no rage roof combo.

 

[Thinkaman]

For what it's worth, here's a list for you guys to argue about. Probably.

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B tier: ( / )
C+ tier:
C tier:
C- tier:
D tier:
E tier:
F tier:

No customs. I think I have everyone, but if I don't point it out, please. there are 55 characters in this game.

General Tier Groupings:

S: Best characters in the game. Characters that can very easily win big tournaments as a solo main.

A+/A: Characters that can get top 8 at big tournaments as a solo main, but have trouble actually taking the title.

B: "Upper Mid" characters that can get top 8 at big tournaments as a solo main with some difficulty.

C+: "Mid tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments with difficulty, often somewhat of an anomaly.

C/C-: "mid tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments as secondaries, generally impossible to make it in as solo mained characters due to numerous disadvantages.

D: "low tier" characters that can get into top 8 at big tournaments as secondaries, considered impossible to make it in as solo mained characters due to numerous disadvantages.

E: Impossible to get into top 8 at a big tournament at all. Can win locals, though is rare as a solo main. These characters in general are very rare, even at the local level, but have things that keep them being out of the bottom.

F: Impossible to win any tournament at any level.

Now, for some opinions:

- Rosalina: I honestly believe she is the number 2 character in the game. She's got the best defensive play in the game and a slew of attacks that either help with her defensive game or give her a plethora of lethal kill options, such as up air, or her quick, low-lag smashes, and Luma put her at the top.

- Yoshi: Results don't lie at this point. If Yoshi really is as good as the general opinion has him, then why isn't he getting results as good as the rest of the A tier, or even everyone above him in the B tier?

Those are all the "glaring" ones I can see from my prospective, feel free to comment!

Also, on aba's tier list, is every character not ranked "unviable"? Also, are Pit and Dark Pit grouped together?

First, as a general notice to everyone, consider this post just below the minimum level of substance for what we want in a tier list post--Abadango, on the other hand, gets an A+.

Anyway, this list seems pretty non-controversial and overtly-results-focused, with a few standouts that I think demand explanation:

B tier:
C tier:
C- tier:
D tier:
E tier:

Ike in top 15, above Yoshi, ROB, and Wario, seems like a bridge too far to me. I feel like the results and theory just don't align. For contrast, Abadango didn't even consider Ike in his 31 viable characters. I know people have been talking optimistically about Ike a lot here recently, but putting him this high made me do a serious double-take.

Greninja down at "C-tier" seems out of step with results as well. If I see a Greninja place well at a regional event, I'm not especially surprised--even if it's more unusual than 15 or so other characters. Greninja is like Peach--rarely played by some standard but not lacking in results considering.

Lucas I actually buy as a mid-tier, but where are the results? (Open question to everyone) Am I overlooking recent Lucas success somewhere, or is it DLC-syndrome, or what?

G&W and DHD I do not at all buy as default, true-blue "C-grade" mid-tiers, but Abadango seems to agree with you on both.

My beef with G&W is I watch Regi play the character and think "Wow, I don't see how this character could really be played or perform any better than this. This feels like an upper limit." Is that an unfair observer reaction?

Default DHD just feels like he comes up short. He is about as bad as a character can be while still having a "good neutral" imo. The problem is, his absurd KO problems and unreliability is just a big ball n' chain. It leads to a rage problem in many matchups, and against several top tiers (Sheik, Mario, Rosalina) I feel like his central plan falls to pieces. I've been playing a lot of default DHD lately, and he feels incredibly uphill every match.

Aside: It feels to me like the value proposition of "have a good neutral, but DRAWBACKS" for Mac is more favorable than DHD.

Meanwhile, Roy in "C-tier"--above Greninja even--is bound to get an eyebrow raise. Especially with Marth in "D-tier." Is there anyone winning anything with Roy? Are there any high-tier matchups Roy does respectably well in? Ditto for Bowser, but more pessimistic. Does anyone do anything of note with Bowser?

Finally, WFT at #43 and labeled "Impossible to get into top 8 at a big tournament at all." is ignoring a magical place called Australia. Wave has ruled their scene with an iron-fist, and we've seen modest success at the hands of John Numbers, TKBreezy, and others. (We can triangulate down from customs WFT, who is almost certainly top 20.) WFT seems obviously mid-tier to me based on theory, results, and personal experience; certainly more than many others being discussed.

And yeah, where's Robin?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike in top 15, above Yoshi, ROB, and Wario, seems like a bridge too far to me. I feel like the results and theory just don't align. For contrast, Abadango didn't even consider Ike in his 31 viable characters. I know people have been talking optimistically about Ike a lot here recently, but putting him this high made me do a serious double-take.

The only odd one out of those three is Wario. Wario should probably be above Ike .

Yoshi and ROB on the other hand.... Yoshi has done next to nothing recently and ROB has done even less. If anything I'd say its a mixture of Wario too low (should be right behind MK), Yoshi and ROB both too high with Yoshi taking the very last spot of B tier at best and then both ROB and Luigi dropping down to C+ tier.

But then I also think Peach should be behind Ike but the Pits right in front of him, so end result for Ike is -1 (-2 if you count Dark Pit separately). Nowadays putting Ike right around 15th-17th is... not really that uncommon for NA. Japan will probably never put him very high ever: Ike is general is just one of those characters that seem to have drastically dramatic opinions depending on the region. WFT is another one: considered pretty lethal in Australia but nowhere else.

Fun fact: to make the Ike oddity on Abadango's list even weird: he's played and lost to a great Ike. After he beat San in tournament Ryuga played him in friendlies and beat him pretty soundly. Obviously friendlies are not the same as tournament matches, but its not like Abadango has never seen what a good Ike can do either. I really think its the stigma against Ike as a FE Lord (which is apparently dying down a fair bit now and he might bet swinging upwards to be popular over there. Years after his games) and the stigma against really bulky male characters that's hurting Ike's results and thus tier position in Japan.

 

[Nobie]

For what it's worth, here's a list for you guys to argue about. Probably.

F tier:

F: Impossible to win any tournament at any level.

Here's a problem already. Some of these characters HAVE won tournaments on their own. If you're going to argue that the tournaments aren't good enough, then "any level" isn't any level. The only caveat is that some of these came before the Shield changes.

1) Ganondorf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbbniUej18w

Ganon the Beast is known as the best player in his region, and has either gotten to Grand Finals or has won his weeklies on multiple occasions.

2) Mii Swordfighter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_beJk_1lY

This is old at this point so it might not even count, but we can't ignore that time that Trela won not just with Mii Swordfighter, but DEFAULT 1111 Swordfighter.

3) Mewtwo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4atvMjpP5gY

LoF Blue won a weekly going exclusively Mewtwo. That aside, Mew^2 has been posting good results at the Tourney Locater Weeklies.

Others have reached Grand Finals but haven't been able to clutch it out.

I'm not even saying those characters aren't low tier or whatever, but don't make a statement that they're absolutely hopeless when there's actual evidence to prove otherwise. There are probably some I'm not even aware of, as well as characters above these who HAVEN'T won any tournaments.

 

[FullMoon]

I mean even Brawl Ganon won stuff didn't he?

 

[meleebrawler]

Aside: It feels to me like the value proposition of "have a good neutral, but DRAWBACKS" for Mac is more favorable than DHD.

Mewtwo is like this, too, just less extreme. He doesn't get hard countered by any stage but isn't super comfortable on any of them either. Battlefield (and possibly Dreamland) seem ideal for him if the opponent he's fighting isn't even better there.

He's got several good spacing moves with the mobility to keep the ideal distance more easily, plus the oft-mentioned anti-camping tools. You DO have to outplay him fairly consistently to win since running away isn't very sustainable against him.

 

[DanGR]

The problem with that F-tier isn't just that the characters Nobie listed have wins under their belts. The idea that it's impossible to win with a character is just ridiculous.

 

[adom4]

I mean even Brawl Ganon won stuff didn't he?

Well Brawl Ganon took one small tournament from what i remember (Fonz won i think) but that's like the only time a Ganon did anything in Brawl, smash 4 Ganon has decent results for a supposed "impossible to win with" character (Ganon the beast, Ray kalm & Vermanubis all get results).

 

[outfoxd]

Default DHD just feels like he comes up short. He is about as bad as a character can be while still having a "good neutral" imo. The problem is, his absurd KO problems and unreliability is just a big ball n' chain. It leads to a rage problem in many matchups, and against several top tiers (Sheik, Mario, Rosalina) I feel like his central plan falls to pieces. I've been playing a lot of default DHD lately, and he feels incredibly uphill

Basically, DH needs his good neutral because you have to win neutral roughly a thousand times more than the other guy more often than not. You have to be on point for a really, really long time, and hope you never get offstage with no jump or can backup. In a way he's like Rosalina, but his puppet(s) can't kill worth crap.

 

[Yikarur]

Ike is not in Abadangos List because Japanese don't like Ike in general 8)

he's a solid Top15-20 imo.

 

[wpwood]

Basically everything you said about Bowser was completely wrong. Pretty much confirms my suspicions that people who say he's bad know nothing about his meta.

Yeah, I don't know Bowser. I don't play him and a lot of other people don't either. That's why you have to be the one to inform everyone about him.

His main approach options on people playing defensively are dash attack and dash grab. Dash attack is unreactable and has enormous range when spaced, and it eats rolls. It's unsafe but you should never do it out of a run, but rather as burst mix-up. Dash grab has ridiculous range, it's the only non-tether dashgrab I know of that can 'beat' hitboxes due to the enormous range when spaced properly. Also has decent reward because bthrow plus two pummels is about 20%.

His mix ups are his tilts, firebreath, side, fair and ac bair. These moves are a tier below his bread-and butter moves in terms of usage, and are more for reads and perceived higher reward. What makes his mix-ups good is that he can threaten shields with dash grab and sideb, so the opponent has to mix up their defensive options to. Firebreath is mainly for free damage in certain advantaged scenarios (like edgeguarding or catching landings) or to pressure people playing reactively.

His best spacing tools are jab and pivot grab. Both are quite safe whilst posing some threat. None of his tilts are true spacing options because they're too unsafe relative to jab to be used for that purpose. The only exception is up-angled ftilt, which can be used for spacing against aerial approaches.

His best kill options are frame 9 bair, and frame 11 downb, which can confirm from his frame 7 jab. Perfect pivot jab is a very safe set-up into a downb kill. These are his best kill options because they're relatively fast and kill pre100. Then a tier below that you have usmash, which is safe on aerial oponents, dair and sideb. These are all fairly reliable but don't kill pre100 unless you have rage. If you factor in rage, then basically all of his tilts and aerials because viable kill options.

There's still the fact that he gets combo easily and looses in the speed category. I feel he relies on someone over extending or getting strong punishes. I also don't see dash attack as an approach option. It's one of the laggiest dash attacks in the game (the only one I know that is slower than Palutena's but I haven't looked at all dash attack data). And what about people that don't play defensively? How does he approach on them? If he is tilts, fire breath, and bair are not his bread and butter moves, what are his bread and butter moves?

If i'm playing a Bowser I would honestly just camp him. What could he do about that? Run all the way across the stage to shield grab me. I doubt that. I could easily switch to a more offensive play if he were to do that. I also am a little skeptical about jab to down b. Is it like Yoshi's where it is true on bad DI because I'm pretty I could just DI away or something to avoid Bowser bomb.

It's not that I think he's bad, I just think other characters could get the job done better.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

F tier:


F: Impossible to win any tournament at any level.

I get the feeling you don't mean that literally, but nah she's not hopeless. Prince Ramen is almost always in Grands at his local (he usually wins) and he's beaten Wizzrobe's Sheik several times rather convincingly. AeroLink has won many tournaments user her exclusively, as have a few others. Not to mention that a random no-name Palutena player almost broke through to Top 16 at Tipped Off 11 but was stopped just short of that goal and ended up tying for 17th.

Overall, I find that people tend to overestimate how difficult it is to win with most 'bottom-halfers'. The only character I've yet to even see take a game against a good player is default Mii Brawler but I feel that's mostly because no one plays him.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Nobody in this game is F, or E, or even D tier.

These imply they can't do jack in even the most competent of hands. And that simply isn't true.

If you're implying they can't do jack versus an S tier character, then maybe; but in that case I'm hard pressed to call anyone other than Shiek an S tier.

 

[Zannabluke]

Ike is not in Abadangos List because Japanese don't like Ike in general 8)

he's a solid Top15-20 imo.

regarding japan's opinion on ike, i asked kei a few weeks ago on ranai's stream what were their thoughts on the radiant hero. he said that pretty much all 9B "crew" (ranai, nasubi, nojinko, ...) agree on the character's solo-viability potential in tournaments
he also told me to completely disregard esports-runner's tier list

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Overall, I find that people tend to overestimate how difficult it is to win with most 'bottom-halfers'. The only character I've yet to even see take a game against a good player is default Mii Brawler but I feel that's mostly because no one plays him.

I get the feeling you don't mean that literally, but nah she's not hopeless. Prince Ramen is almost always in Grands at his local (he usually wins) and he's beaten Wi
Overall, I find that people tend to overestimate how difficult it is to win with most 'bottom-halfers'. The only character I've yet to even see take a game against a good player is default Mii Brawler but I feel that's mostly because no one plays him.

MikeKirby took a game off of Nairo and almost beat him, MikeKirby took a set off of Larry, Takes sets of of DKWill, that's just for Kirby.

A Robin took a game off of Zero at a recent tourney, Nairo beat Esam with Doc, Esam beat Larry's pre-patch luigi with Samus, and others.

It's extremely difficult to win but it has happened.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't agree with the notion of "oh, nobody's COMPLETELY awful in this game!". I think characters like Zelda or Samus are 100% bad.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So the one and only ScAtt discussed his thoughts on Mega Man's viability among other things with me. Figured an expert opinion on Mega Man would be something you guys liked here! Go give it a read and feel free to have some discussion there or bring it back here.

 

[Dre89]

I don't agree with the notion of "oh, nobody's COMPLETELY awful in this game!". Characters like Zelda or Samus are 100% bad.

But you still have instances like Esam's Samus beating Larry's pre-patch Luigi. So even if these characters still are '100% bad' no one is playing at a level where it matters.

 

[Big-Cat]

Basically everything you said about Bowser was completely wrong. Pretty much confirms my suspicions that people who say he's bad know nothing about his meta.

His main approach options on people playing defensively are dash attack and dash grab. Dash attack is unreactable and has enormous range when spaced, and it eats rolls. It's unsafe but you should never do it out of a run, but rather as burst mix-up. Dash grab has ridiculous range, it's the only non-tether dashgrab I know of that can 'beat' hitboxes due to the enormous range when spaced properly. Also has decent reward because bthrow plus two pummels is about 20%.

His mix ups are his tilts, firebreath, side, fair and ac bair. These moves are a tier below his bread-and butter moves in terms of usage, and are more for reads and perceived higher reward. What makes his mix-ups good is that he can threaten shields with dash grab and sideb, so the opponent has to mix up their defensive options to. Firebreath is mainly for free damage in certain advantaged scenarios (like edgeguarding or catching landings) or to pressure people playing reactively.

His best spacing tools are jab and pivot grab. Both are quite safe whilst posing some threat. None of his tilts are true spacing options because they're too unsafe relative to jab to be used for that purpose. The only exception is up-angled ftilt, which can be used for spacing against aerial approaches.

His best kill options are frame 9 bair, and frame 11 downb, which can confirm from his frame 7 jab. Perfect pivot jab is a very safe set-up into a downb kill. These are his best kill options because they're relatively fast and kill pre100. Then a tier below that you have usmash, which is safe on aerial oponents, dair and sideb. These are all fairly reliable but don't kill pre100 unless you have rage. If you factor in rage, then basically all of his tilts and aerials because viable kill options.

I'm surprised that Bowser's crawling is almost never discussed. It's an extremely underrated tool that gives him fighting game footsies.

 

[DunnoBro]

Just because characters aren't as overall functionally incoherent as past bottom tiers doesn't mean we still don't have some really bad characters.

Generally it seems like poor translation from other games (Jigglypuff, Marth, Falco) or too loyal translation to a consistently losing formula (Zelda, Mewtwo, Roy) is the primary cause of character non-viability.

There's also a large amount of ledgeplay characters who just can't function in this game.

Even sheik who can return from the depths of hell is better off harassing with needles/grenade and trying to get the get-up option with nair/grab for kill confirms most of the time.

I don't think edgehogging should return, but I do think l/edgeplay should be buffed. There should be a way EVERYONE can get the kill.

A few ideas I think would be overall healthy for the game:

1: Downthrowing on the ledge should have wildly different properties than downthrowing onstage. To the point characters who normally don't have them get kill confirms. (50/50s or otherwise)

I'd rather lower the standard get-up invincibility, but that'd just make stupid good moves already capable of punishing that even better.

2: Tighten the ledge grab box inward

Keep it overall the same vertically, but demand people be more beneath the ledge in order to sweetspot. It's silly how far out AND down people can be and still sweetspot. IMO how far down they can be is fine, but the horizontal grab box is massive and allows mixing it up even with that.

3: Pummeling/Grab releasing doesn't count as "hitting" and thus doesn't allow invincibility on a ledge regrab.
Won't work for regular on-stage get-ups since they touched the stage, just ledge attacks or jumps if you catch them.

4: Definitely nerf some recoveries. Why villager's the only one repeatedly nerfed is beyond me. Sheik and ZSS need it way more.

5: Revert ledge mechanics to only allow rolls to be buffered. So trump 50/50s can be a thing again.

The main difference between a top tier and a bottom tier is how efficiently they can secure the kill. In this game, on-stage and vertical kills/combos are the best because the opponent actually has more survival options offstage. (Doesn't need to worry about air dodge landing lag, has at least one big fat invincibility box to put out with the ledge, a new mobility option with their recovery move, etc)

I think removing the monopoly vertical strings have on kills would greatly improve the balance of this game overall.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't agree with the notion of "oh, nobody's COMPLETELY awful in this game!". I think characters like Zelda or Samus are 100% bad.

Naw even Samus and Zelda have neat tricks and tools. There more like, 70% bad. Never count out a character because they're bad. That's how u get exposed.

 

[Nobie]

Another thing to consider in this results/theory talk is that, as much as the tournament scene has exploded for Smash in general, there are only a finite number of tournaments possible. Over in Street Fighter IV, M. Bison (Dictator) famously has never won a major, and yet is considered somewhere between mid tier and high tier. depending on the game. Characters purportedly worse than Bison have taken championships. You could say Bison is sort of in a Yoshi situation, but I think it more has to do sometimes with simple luck of the draw. If someone had wiped out all of the Sheiks before Scatt had to fight Vinnie, would Mega Man have been able to get all the way to the top?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Naw even Samus and Zelda have neat tricks and tools. There more like, 70% bad. Never count out a character because they're bad. That's how u get exposed.

Eh, I'd say 80% bad, myself. They're big and light, so they have the same issue as Mewtwo. And Phantom Slash is just not a good move, and Samus can't even bomb-jump as effectively as she could before.

None of them are quite as garbo as Default Palutena and default Brawler, I'll admit, but they're definitely pretty awful.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Just because a character has tools or aren't 100% bad doesn't mean they're somehow viable or even matter in the meta.

It's such a weird misconception to make.

 

[wedl!!]

First off, Samus isn't light. At all. She's tied for sixth heaviest character in the game with Bowser Jr in kart lol. You're thinking of them both being floaty.

Also do we really need to point out that Palu isn't as "garbo" as you think? This happened like four pages ago.