Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TheJolteon]

In the Smash world there are good Little Mac players and bad Little Mac players. There is no in between. If the Little Mac dash attacks into your shield u know theres a problem. If they are defensive its obvious they know what they are doing.

So having 4 even MUs is good? I also didn't mention that Kirby doesn't beat many characters. We lose most of our MUs, and we get bodied by the rest of the top tiers. I agree he isn't bottom 5, but he's still at BEST bottom of low-mid. Hopefully a national kirby main can prove me wrong.


I'm pessimistic but that's better than being too optimistic by far, I'm adding another side to the argument then the usual "UNDERLOOKED TOP TIER" kirby mains.


For one, Marth, Robin, Falco, and Link are all undoubtedly better than Kirby even if you disagree with my statements.

I think I made people think Kirby is bottom 5, which he isn't, but he's definiteky without a doubt low tier. At best he is low-MUs, but we'll see. His kit literally goes against itself, character that has a good advantage that has sub-par frame data, **** mobility, unsafe aerials, light, and a gimpable recovery. To add on to this, his advantage state is only amazing against fastfallers like Fox, it's decent against mid fighters, and trash against floaties. His good edge-guarding is counteracted by his gimpable recovery too.

To be honest, most of this is theory, I study my MUs and lab a lot, watch matches, study frame data, but the only two kirby players I can watch are Triple R and Mike, who are just regional threats. If I'm completely wrong in two years from now, that's why. For now, with the knowledge I have, my opinion is that he's not good and overrated by a lot of people.

Theres no way Kirby is worse than these characters. Link and Marth can hardly combo and Kirby destroys Falco

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Theres no way Kirby is worse than these characters. Link and Marth can hardly combo and Kirby destroys Falco

Kirby destroys Falco is completely irrelevant to where they place in a tier list. It's their MU with other characters and the disadvantages/advantages with their kit that place them.

Also Kirby doesn't destroy Falco, good frame data and range, along with easy b-air's and being hard to punish (little endlag on n-air/u-air/b-air) either even or Falco's favour.

 

[thehard]

As much as it's fun to consider which characters rank over which, I find that there's a certain futility in super precise placings, just because there are so many variables to consider. Is Kirby bottom 5? I don't know, what's the complexion of the tournament is he in? Is it the theoretical typical tournament with like 8 Sheiks in top 32 or something? Would you rather be Kirby or Falco if you're fighting Mega Man? Would you rather be Kirby or Jigglypuff when taking on Rosalina (both are awful)?

Actual question: Kirby's main weakness as has been pointed out by many is that he's bad at approaching. How are Kirby players getting around this, especially given all of the complaints about losing dash shield as a reliable option?

Honestly if I say "bottom 5" it's just an all-encapsulating buzzword for "not as good as many others", or maybe "very little going for them (relatively). "Top 15" being of course the more famous opposite.

 

[Planty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnbbZuEdQDU
I'm just gonna add this here because for whatever reason, a lot of people think Little Mac has a bad neutral because he can't jump or grab much (If you're one of these people, please stop saying this) and I also saw somebody post that Little Mac basically sucks vs an optimized gameplan. In reality, it's quite the opposite; Optimal Little Mac play is absolutely terrifying, as shown in this video.

Also I am of the opinion that an optimal (read: optimal) Little Mac has an advantageous matchup vs Rosalina. However that is quite argued against by many Rosalina mains who don't understand exactly what an optimal Little Mac is.

 

[wpwood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnbbZuEdQDU
I'm just gonna add this here because for whatever reason, a lot of people think Little Mac has a bad neutral because he can't jump or grab much (If you're one of these people, please stop saying this) and I also saw somebody post that Little Mac basically sucks vs an optimized gameplan. In reality, it's quite the opposite; Optimal Little Mac play is absolutely terrifying, as shown in this video.

Also I am of the opinion that an optimal (read: optimal) Little Mac has an advantageous matchup vs Rosalina. However that is quite argued against by many Rosalina mains who don't understand exactly what an optimal Little Mac is.

Would you care to tell me exactly what an optimal Mac would do and how an optimal Mac can beat a Rosa? I also don't think dittos truly show all of a characters play. It just reflects what that character will do against that type of character or in those types of situations. Like Mac doing nair to rapid jab but the other Mac was able to up b out. That probably wouldn't happen in other match ups. How would the Mac have followed up on the last hit of rapid jab. Would he have stayed back or would he have ran forward and read the landing?

 

[Kaladin]

So having 4 even MUs is good?

Against those four characters, plus a doable sheik matchup, it makes him more viable in our current meta than Bowser, DDD, Jiggly, Zelda, etc.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Against those four characters, plus a doable sheik matchup, it makes him more viable in our current meta than Bowser, DDD, Jiggly, Zelda, etc.

well being better then some characters doesn't make him good. I don't think he's top 5 but he's not miles ahead of the worst either.

 

[Planty]

Would you care to tell me exactly what an optimal Mac would do and how an optimal Mac can beat a Rosa?

As Dabuz would say: "You hit her."

Really though, I can't make a gigantic post so I'll just get the basics; (please remember this is an optimal Mac. I don't want to repeat that a bunch of times every time I say "Mac")

Little Mac's main weakness is his horrendous disadvantage state that often results in many early deaths offstage. Said deaths make him die before the opponent ().

Now if we look at this matchup, Mac will often be winning in neutral. F-tilt essentially destroys Luma. This is because Luma can't block and F-tilt loses to nothing except like.. transcendent moves. This effectively negates jab spacing at any time and forces Rosalina herself to move in (unless you use starbits but starbits are still starbits and why would you use starbits?). That is of course assuming Luma is even alive. Little Mac kills him a lot.

So Rosalina moves in and gets mauled. (shocking huh? Do I actually have to explain this?). This leads to a Little Mac advantage state. A few low % D-tilt combos, and w/e else. Now the issue arises that after these D-tilt combos + 2-3 pokes, Rosalina is already in death %. You also must remember that a Rosalina offstage WILL be edgeguarded by Mac's D-smash, which he should be doing semi-consistently for a kill. By being able to kill her so easily, his main weakness (dying early) is negated in a sense.

Obviously, it's not a gigantic advantage for Mac, but it's there. Due to the nature of his character, this matchup is incredibly inconsistent because all 3 () of them will be dying a ton and very easily. However, even with this inconsistency, I can't see Rosalina theoretically winning this matchup because Little Mac's natural advantages are just too strong.

 

[Nobie]

Theres no way Kirby is worse than these characters. Link and Marth can hardly combo and Kirby destroys Falco

It's a mistake to summarize a character's viability in terms of "how well they combo." It's a factor, certainly, but things like stage control, mobility, and ability to effectively implement one's game plan also matter. A character need not be a combo monster to have an impact, and characters that "combo better" aren't necessarily better than those who don't.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's a mistake to summarize a character's viability in terms of "how well they combo." It's a factor, certainly, but things like stage control, mobility, and ability to effectively implement one's game plan also matter. A character need not be a combo monster to have an impact, and characters that "combo better" aren't necessarily better than those who don't.

To wit, people often bemoan Mewtwo's combo game is not as good as several rushdowns and often cite that as one of the main reasons he loses against said characters. Not only is his combo game quite decent for someone of his playstyle (also like Samus), with quite a few ways of getting them started (dtilt and jab are the most obvious, utilt can be a kill setup after a jab, nair works with practice and short-hop uair is a unique one for tall characters), his above-average damage per hit means his damage output is still fairly good without them.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think Mac beats Rosalina, mainly because he's one of the easiest characters to camp out while waiting for luma to respawn.

He can kill luma as much as he wants, luma's still going to be up whenever you're actually fighting

At least on smashville it's heavily in rosa's favour.

 

[Dre89]

Can people who think Bowser is around bottom 5 please explain why they think so

I wanna see how much they understand his meta. I'm pretty sure they don't.

If someone says 'he has killpower but he needs a hard read' I'm not going to bother read the rest of their post because they clearly don't understand him at all.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think Mac beats Rosalina, mainly because he's one of the easiest characters to camp out while waiting for luma to respawn.

He can kill luma as much as he wants, luma's still going to be up whenever you're actually fighting

At least on smashville it's heavily in rosa's favour.

Mac is weird because more often than not, he gets countered by STAGES more than characters. At least when I play him as Mewtwo, it feels like a disadvantage on Final Destination or Battlefield, but Smashville and Town & City make it relatively easy for him to run and get a ball charged at his leisure, or just stall for time/get his bearings.

 

[Jams.]

I don't think Mac beats Rosalina, mainly because he's one of the easiest characters to camp out while waiting for luma to respawn.

He can kill luma as much as he wants, luma's still going to be up whenever you're actually fighting

At least on smashville it's heavily in rosa's favour.

Mac is heavily disadvantaged against basically every character on Smashville, because he has no way to pressure someone camping the platform. Mac should not be played on either Smashville or Duck Hunt.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Can people who think Bowser is around bottom 5 please explain why they think so

I wanna see how much they understand his meta. I'm pretty sure they don't.

If someone says 'he has killpower but he needs a hard read' I'm not going to bother read the rest of their post because they clearly don't understand him at all.

Why should anyone understand his meta? He has no results. Therefore, I will probably never fight one in bracket. As a result, nobody "understands" his meta because it's unneccessary to in order to place well. Is he bottom 5? Probably not. But yeah, at the end of the day, Bowser's problem is his terrible matchups with the most common tournement picks. He's not unusable, but you gotta put in a lotta work in order to do well with the guy.

 

[wpwood]

As Dabuz would say: "You hit her."

Really though, I can't make a gigantic post so I'll just get the basics; (please remember this is an optimal Mac. I don't want to repeat that a bunch of times every time I say "Mac")

Little Mac's main weakness is his horrendous disadvantage state that often results in many early deaths offstage. Said deaths make him die before the opponent ().

Now if we look at this matchup, Mac will often be winning in neutral. F-tilt essentially destroys Luma. This is because Luma can't block and F-tilt loses to nothing except like.. transcendent moves. This effectively negates jab spacing at any time and forces Rosalina herself to move in (unless you use starbits but starbits are still starbits and why would you use starbits?). That is of course assuming Luma is even alive. Little Mac kills him a lot.

So Rosalina moves in and gets mauled. (shocking huh? Do I actually have to explain this?). This leads to a Little Mac advantage state. A few low % D-tilt combos, and w/e else. Now the issue arises that after these D-tilt combos + 2-3 pokes, Rosalina is already in death %. You also must remember that a Rosalina offstage WILL be edgeguarded by Mac's D-smash, which he should be doing semi-consistently for a kill. By being able to kill her so easily, his main weakness (dying early) is negated in a sense.

Obviously, it's not a gigantic advantage for Mac, but it's there. Due to the nature of his character, this matchup is incredibly inconsistent because all 3 () of them will be dying a ton and very easily. However, even with this inconsistency, I can't see Rosalina theoretically winning this matchup because Little Mac's natural advantages are just too strong.

Sure but we're still taking about the worst recovery in the game vs some of the most disjointed aerials in the game. Also platforms. Mac optimal are not is gonna struggle with platforms and Rosa loves her platforms. So unless a Mac can take Rosa to FD, Mac could just barley loose or barley win, but why a Rosa wouldn't ban FD on Mac idk. Also because of how good Rosa's recovery is she can sometimes wait out the down smash or could aim for the stage and miss the ledge completely. An optimal Mac vs an optimal Rosa is for sure in Rosa's favor by a large amount.

Can people who think Bowser is around bottom 5 please explain why they think so

I wanna see how much they understand his meta. I'm pretty sure they don't.

If someone says 'he has killpower but he needs a hard read' I'm not going to bother read the rest of their post because they clearly don't understand him at all.

I would like to start by saying, he has killpower but he needs a hard read. But let me explain, because

Well kinda like how thehard said: bottom five is kinda just a term to say bottom tier. In a game with 50+ characters it is kinda hard to truly label the bottom and the middle tiers, but the top tiers are easy to label because they stand out the most in tournament results. Sure some people may think Bowser is actually bottom 5, but if you ask anyone there bottom 5 you would possibly get 5 different characters. A lot of people put Palutena in bottom 5 and I don't agree with that, but again there are just so many characters it is too hard to label the bottom 5.

Also when's the last time you've seen a Bowser in top 32 at a national. I don't think I've ever seen one. Is it because the character is bad or is it because there are no top level Bowser players? Maybe both, idk. Bowser is a decent character he just gets out shined by other characters and we all forget about him and what he can do.

 

[David Viran]

Also in case no one has said it, Mike Kirby was actually able to take Nairo to game 3 and a very close one going by his words (it sadly, was not recorded but apparently he would have won the set if the last game didn't take place on Battlefield which had wide enough blast zones to help Nairo survive his B-Air.). This is about as high level as this matchup can currently get and I doubt this would have been possible if the Kirby didn't have something to help him hold his own.

Make of this what you will. I am not here to really debate. Just to present a visual perspective.

Nairo also got taken to a close game 3 by DKwill's Donkey Kong but I still wouldn't call that MU even or good really. Also we can't really take all of nairo's matches as the way the MU should be played. He has the tenancy to be more aggressive and approach all the time even when the situation optimally calls for a more defensive position, but we don't have the footage to really know how he played the MU either.

 

[Y2Kay]

Nairo also got taken to a close game 3 by DKwill's Donkey Kong but I still wouldn't call that MU even or good really. Also we can't really take all of nairo's matches as the way the MU should be played. He has the tenancy to be more aggressive and approach all the time even when the situation calls for a more defensive position, but we don't have the footage to really know how he played the MU either.

Well I mean the argument is backed up with theory too unlike DK

 

[ARGHETH]

Well I mean the argument is backed up with theory too unlike DK

Did Nairo know the matchup at that time at all?

 

[Dre89]

Why should anyone understand his meta? He has no results. Therefore, I will probably never fight one in bracket. As a result, nobody "understands" his meta because it's unneccessary to in order to place well. Is he bottom 5? Probably not. But yeah, at the end of the day, Bowser's problem is his terrible matchups with the most common tournement picks. He's not unusable, but you gotta put in a lotta work in order to do well with the guy.

See this is why threads like this and tier lists have become completely pointless

Our discussion and tier lists only consider the highest level f play, which like 1% of the community plays at.

So really, the discussion and the lists really on help top level players, but in reality the discussion and lists are purely reactive to whatever results the top players get.

So basically we just end up with discussion and a tier list that helps no one because it's only relevant for top-level players, but then they're just dictated by top-level results. The top-level players, the only ones who these lists are accurate for, have nothing to learn from them or the discussion because they're the ones effectively deciding them.

You might as well rename tier lists to 'results lists' because if you're just going to look at results then the list doesn't measure how good a character's kit is, but how good their representation is. They are two completely different things.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well I mean the argument is backed up with theory too unlike DK

That Kirby wins the MU? Wrong theory. Kirby's duck doesn't cripple ZSS, its an obstacle. A single obstacle doesn't make an MU. Even if we had a ton of things going good in the MU, it would still be even for the simple fact that a well spaced grab and d-smash kill us at 40%. After watching Mike vs Larry's ZSS i'm pretty sure its even, but I'm still gonna go through pros and cons because why not.

PROS FOR KIRBY:
Ducks under aerials, makes ZSS's neutral awkward
Semi-fastfaller, good combos
We force her to approach
Lacks tools to gimp our horrid up-b (thank the lord for that one)

CONS:
She kills us at 30%
Our lack of reliable kill moves mean that we can die at 30 while we might take her to 120% every stock.
Super fast and good range, good juggles in the air
Cant gimp her unless she is forced to up-b

So we have a 4/4 summarized. Being able to completely counter her SHFF aerials is amazing, but it doesnt give us a win. She still has other options to get around it, and we have to work hard to avoid a death at 30. Nothing better than even, trust me.

 

[TimG57867]

Nairo also got taken to a close game 3 by DKwill's Donkey Kong but I still wouldn't call that MU even or good really. Also we can't really take all of nairo's matches as the way the MU should be played. He has the tenancy to be more aggressive and approach all the time even when the situation optimally calls for a more defensive position, but we don't have the footage to really know how he played the MU either.

True. (Though the Boost Kick and Ding Dong did make the set rather volatile). Still, it's something to consider. In any case, not getting to see that match was a massive disappointment for me...lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

First things first, I had to warn a bunch of people for staying on-topic. Our new standard of behavior for tier lists is still Totally A Thing guys. There's basically no circumstance in which anyone should be making a post that is just a list of characters, short of obvious mechanical questions. Don't ask people to post a partial tier list, and don't indulge anyone who does.

Discussion has otherwise been great. Keep it up!

----------

I feel vaguely qualified to talk about Mac, so I'll do that.

In the Smash world there are good Little Mac players and bad Little Mac players. There is no in between.

Mac is weird because more often than not, he gets countered by STAGES more than characters.

Boy oh boy, did you guys nail it.

• Nothing is less intimidating than a Little Mac running at you, and nothing is more intimidating than a Little Mac walking at you.
• Mac's neutral is absurdly good. Literally every normal attack is incredibly good; his grab is meh but not a liability.
• Jolt Haymaker beats Needles. It is in fact the highest punishment answer for Needles in the game.
• I think Mac is fine against Rosalina.
• Little Mac should never play a match on Smashville under any circumstances.
  • He should also avoid Duck Hunt and Dreamland. Battlefield *is* acceptable.
  • FD, yeah, probably is his best stage, but it's not actually that much better than say T&C.
• Any purported ability to time Little Mac out is automatically irrelevant until you start winning.
• I'm so proud of you guys for spreading that Mac's up-b is f1 invincible. It really is a huge deal.
• Little Mac is significantly better in a customs environment, only because of Grounding Blow.
  • If you don't understand how much more viable LM gets with Grounding Blow as a recovery mixup, you don't understand the real nature of his problems in disadvantage.
  • I would put up with a thousand windboxes just to use Grounding Blow once per stock.
  • If you don't play Mac and don't often play a legitimately solid Mac player, all of this probably makes no sense to you, and I don't blame you but... look, I broke top 100 at EVO with Mac, just trust me on this one, okay?

It's cliché to say that Little Mac makes a viable secondary/counterpick option, but it really is true if not for the usual reasons.

You use Mac as a stage counterpick option, not a character counter-pick option. No one is going to pick FD "against Mac", but people pick FD against other characters ALL THE TIME. Or inversely, maybe you lead Mac and they CP Smashville--jokes on them, your other character is Sheik! Ect.

 

[wpwood]

See this is why threads like this and tier lists have become completely pointless

Our discussion and tier lists only consider the highest level f play, which like 1% of the community plays at.

So really, the discussion and the lists really on help top level players, but in reality the discussion and lists are purely reactive to whatever results the top players get.

So basically we just end up with discussion and a tier list that helps no one because it's only relevant for top-level players, but then they're just dictated by top-level results. The top-level players, the only ones who these lists are accurate for, have nothing to learn from them or the discussion because they're the ones effectively deciding them.

You might as well rename tier lists to 'results lists' because if you're just going to look at results then the list doesn't measure how good a character's kit is, but how good their representation is. They are two completely different things.

Why shouldn't we care about discussing in top level play. Isn't that what we want to be at ourselves and why we come to this place to talk about that. I literally talked about Palutena and her place as a low to mid tier character and how she can become a upper mid to top tier character for 4 days here. If you want to talk about a character's viability and their place on the tier list you gotta discuss. You can't just sign off after 1 response if you don't like what the person says. If I had done that I don't think we would've talked about Palutena for 4 days and possibly still on going if someone brings something else up.

Is Sheik not the best character in smash 4. She definitely has the better tools, safest options, and just so happens to have the best tournament record of all the characters. So should we not say she is number 1? You can say a character is top tier, but how can you back it up if it has never been shown? I think peach is top tier and I think Peach beats Sheik, but it hasn't happened so what do I have to support my argument? I'm just waiting for the Peach player to come out and show what Peach can do. There are some really good Japanese Peach players through and they make Peach look scary. That's why I secondary Peach. She's a slept on top tier with no tournament results. Is that a true statement? We have (I forgot how to spell his name) saj who made it to top 8 at STR and that's all. Now maybe we should start talking about Peach and her viability.

You have to pose the question and continue the discussion and support your argument. I knew a lot about Palutena and I was ready to go when I brought that topic up. Writing this whole thing off after one post is not how you discuss a character's viability. You actually have to discuss.

On that note, Let's talk about Peach. Where is she in the current meta and why? What is holding her back? How good are her tools? Who def beats Peach? Stuff like that.

 

[wedl!!]

Please do not do these two things when talking about Peach:

a) say she's a top tier or slept on, she is an acknowledged higher tier character and has been for a long time and there's realistically no way she's top tier

b) say she has "no results" or "little representation", there's more going for her results-wise than a large portion of the cast

 

[wpwood]

Please do not do these two things when talking about Peach:

a) say she's a top tier or slept on, she is an acknowledged higher tier character and has been for a long time

b) say she has "no results" or "little representation", there's more going for her results-wise than a large portion of the cast

Well I clearly haven't heard of these results and a lot of tier list I've seen place her in mid not top.

But hey, thanks for all information that you gave along with your post. Really helped me in understanding what you were trying to explain.

 

[wedl!!]

Please name me three notable players for any hyped up mid tier other than Ike. Please name me three hyped up mid tiers other than Ike who have cracked top 8 at notable tournies.

While we're discussing your post, I totally forgot you mentioned Sheik/Peach and how Peach wins. Nooooo. She doesn't consistently win neutral enough against Sheik to really do that. Hitting a lot harder than Sheik and not really losing shield options to her in the same vein most characters do doesn't mean it's a winning matchup. At worst it's a minute disadvantage, at best it's even.

 

[Dre89]

Why shouldn't we care about discussing in top level play. Isn't that what we want to be at ourselves and why we come to this place to talk about that. I literally talked about Palutena and her place as a low to mid tier character and how she can become a upper mid to top tier character for 4 days here. If you want to talk about a character's viability and their place on the tier list you gotta discuss. You can't just sign off after 1 response if you don't like what the person says. If I had done that I don't think we would've talked about Palutena for 4 days and possibly still on going if someone brings something else up.

Is Sheik not the best character in smash 4. She definitely has the better tools, safest options, and just so happens to have the best tournament record of all the characters. So should we not say she is number 1? You can say a character is top tier, but how can you back it up if it has never been shown? I think peach is top tier and I think Peach beats Sheik, but it hasn't happened so what do I have to support my argument? I'm just waiting for the Peach player to come out and show what Peach can do. There are some really good Japanese Peach players through and they make Peach look scary. That's why I secondary Peach. She's a slept on top tier with no tournament results. Is that a true statement? We have (I forgot how to spell his name) saj who made it to top 8 at STR and that's all. Now maybe we should start talking about Peach and her viability.

You have to pose the question and continue the discussion and support your argument. I knew a lot about Palutena and I was ready to go when I brought that topic up. Writing this whole thing off after one post is not how you discuss a character's viability. You actually have to discuss.

On that note, Let's talk about Peach. Where is she in the current meta and why? What is holding her back? How good are her tools? Who def beats Peach? Stuff like that.

I'm willing to discuss why Bowser is way better than lots of people here think, I've done so here before. The problem is no matter what you say, people will just default to 'results'. Bowser has no results not because he's that bad, but because he has no high-level rep.

I'm just sick of having to repeat myself. It's the people who say he's bad that provide no reasoning at all. I suspect they don't want to elaborate because they don't actually know the character. Most of them still probably think of him as a slightly better Brawl Bowser, which isn't true. Sm4sh is significantly better because a number of Brawl Bowsers meaingful weaknesses have been removed.

Compared to Brawl, Bowser now has
-legit approach options
-high reward landing mix-ups that can kill
-safe spacing tools
-reliable kill options pre100
-biggest exploiter of rage in the game

Bowser didn't just get slightly buffed. A lot of his weaknesses got removed. He's no longer incredibly vulnerable in disadvantage, he can now approach, and you now have try avoid sub frame 12 options at 90% otherwise you're dead.

Point is, if someone is going to say he's bottom tier, the burden is on them to show why, but no one has.

 

[Jucchan]

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-12/
Abadango has posted his 1.1.2 tier list, translation of his notes below. Abadango did not write notes for every character.

A+
A
A-
B+
B
C

A: Characters that can win a tournament solo. The majority of them can compete against Sheik.
I wasn't sure whether to put her in her own tier, but I put her tied with ZSS because of the patch buffs. Sheik is still better in tight situations though. I think n-air got a lot better because of the patch. The pose of n-air is the pose of smash dominance.
Although she doesn't have many moves to use during the rise of her jump, her aerials during the falling portion of her jump are just brutal. n-air, up-air, and b-air at the lowest altitude are all -3F so you can't do anything about it. If you get hit by n-air or up-air you just get killed by down-b meteor or up-air up-air up-b. Her recovery and edge-guarding are also really good.
I don't think he got buffed with the patch (I actually don't know), but he can fight most of the high tiers and has a number of really good matchups so I think he can be 3rd.
Kirihara told me that Luma's shieldstun got decreased because it counts as a projectile. In return, Luma acts out of Rosalina getting grabbed faster. Those are pretty much the only changes so Rosalina remains strong.

Note: Anything after Rosaluma is not ordered within tiers

His d-air non-finishing hitboxes lock you into shield now, and he didn't get any nerfs. If anything, his landing aerials and his smashes got better.
The only negative change was that you can punish bowling ball now, and his jab got stronger. I think that the decreased shield health is a plus for Villager.
He went up a tier because of the patch. Against him you can't shield, approach, or punish landings with single-hit moves. It must be hard to play against him with characters that have to get close to kill or that let him stay with over 100% rage easily. I recommend characters that kill early, that can gimp his recovery, or that can block out his aerial approaches to use against him. His worst matchup is Sonic?
It took time to decide where to put him. Going purely by the number of advantageous matchups I would have put him 5th, but he struggles against Sheik and Sonic. He has a little more chance against them than the lower tier characters. Even considering this, his high ability to take care of lower tier character earns him this position.
Did his f-smash, f-air, and QA get stronger? He must be better at getting out of bad situations now. You can't really kill unless attempt edge-guards as much as ESAM. Pika gets extra Abadango points for seeming to have an even-ish Sheik matchup.
His f-air and spaced d-tilt must be better on shield now. Extra Abadango points for seeming to have an even-ish Sheik matchup.
The violence of b-air and u-air are even stronger.
Does her d-air lock you into shield better now? You can probably still shield against it though. It would be crazy if she got more shieldstun on her f-air or b-air.
He's been making the "I'm only pseudo-high tier face" but he's really been strong since the beginning of the game. The patch made ledge let-go to f-air better. Up-smash to cover landings is criminally good. It's a shame he doesn't have any super advantageous matchups.
My opinion of him keep going down. He has high damage output and punishes landing well, but he gets destroyed and edge-guarded too easily. The lower shield strength probably makes it easier for him to get in though.

B: They probably can't win a tournament but can make Top 8.

You can't land with d-air anymore because of the higher shieldstun. In exchange, the time between n-air 1 to n-air 2 is now 6F, isn't very punishable, and is better to throw out. Making the opponent shield up-air better now too. If only he had a way to combo a shield-lock into waft!
He doesn't have d-throw Cyclone anymore, but he seems to still have throw combos and so is still good? He gets wrecked by some characters but his ability to wreck others is also high.
I don't have much experience with him, are Pikmin projectiles? If so, it must be harder to throw out f-smash because of the shorter shieldstun and shieldslide.
Rock-paper-scissors with b-air, wavebounce Aura Sphere and Force Palm!
Up-smash is better on shield now. Extra Abadango points for being able to land with b-air. He's also one of the d-throw up-air characters. He should get more move-staling.
He doesn't completely lose against the top tiers but is still nonetheless at a disadvantage. He would become really good with throw combos.
Spaced f-air is strong! -8F at lowest height (New product)! He can throw out aerials better now (probably).
Dash attack is more usable now, so he can rack up damage better. Is trampoline from n-air guaranteed now? (n-air is -5F fresh) Weaker shields mean Boss Galaxian shield locks are better.
It's better now for him to make you shield the duck? Weaker shields give him more opportunities.
It's dangerous now to shield Metal Blade by accident and get your shield weakened (I think). You shouldn't take hits from Crash Bomb either. If only his infinites were easier to do and Metal Blade always disappeared at the same timing...

C:

The character whose life depends on Cargo Throw up-air. He can't land, get up from the ledge, or recover.
Levin Sword is much stronger now. If you stale down-throw you can do down-throw up-air, which is good. I think he can be top half.

 

[wpwood]

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-12/
Abadango has posted his 1.1.2 tier list, I will be updating this post with a translation of his reasoning and observations soon.

To help us understand how characters are viable. Wrong thread sorry.

I'm willing to discuss why Bowser is way better than lots of people here think, I've done so here before. The problem is no matter what you say, people will just default to 'results'. Bowser has no results not because he's that bad, but because he has no high-level rep.

I'm just sick of having to repeat myself. It's the people who say he's bad that provide no reasoning at all. I suspect they don't want to elaborate because they don't actually know the character. Most of them still probably think of him as a slightly better Brawl Bowser, which isn't true. Sm4sh is significantly better because a number of Brawl Bowsers meaingful weaknesses have been removed.

Compared to Brawl, Bowser now has
-legit approach options
-high reward landing mix-ups that can kill
-safe spacing tools
-reliable kill options pre100
-biggest exploiter of rage in the game

Bowser didn't just get slightly buffed. A lot of his weaknesses got removed. He's no longer incredibly vulnerable in disadvantage, he can now approach, and you now have try avoid sub frame 12 options a 90% otherwise you're dead.

Point is, if someone is going to say he's bottom tier, the burden is on them to show why, but no one has.

Ok, let me take a crack at this. Why does Bowser not have high level rep? Probably because he isn't the better choice. I for one don't like his movement and that's why I don't play him, but I like Ganon's movement and I play him a little bit because of that. Movement as in ledge canceling wizard's foot for edge guarding and side b range cover on ledge get up.

So what are his approach options? Run up side B, Neutral B? Dash attack doesn't pass through shields and have lower end lag like some other dash attacks.

What are his mix ups? I know his tilts are fast and can kill, but he can be camped pretty hard I feel.

Neutral B and down tilt are probably his best spacing tools? However the fire needs time to recharge and faster characters could probably jump over the hit box on down tilt and hit him with a falling bair or empty hop grab.

His kill options consist of? Smashes, kinda slow, but the armor on up smash could catch some people off guard. His tilts are possibly his best kill options along with bair. I don't know the speed of bair but I know it kills at decent percents.

Now assuming we agree that Lucario actually gets the most off rage and you think Bowser is actually second, I have to disagree. I think Ganon gets the most out of it. His tilts are just as fast, can confirm tilts out of side b if the player misses the tech, down b can kill, all his aerials can kill. That's who I think gets the second most from rage, but 50+ characters I may be forgetting someone.

 

[Dre89]

http://abadango.com/ssb4-tier-list-ver-1-12/
Abadango has posted his 1.1.2 tier list, I will be updating this post with a translation of his reasoning and observations soon.

A+
A
A-
B+
B
C

I'm surprised at characters like Toon Link, DHD and GaW being above DK.

DK's one of those characters that everyone thinks is fine until they verse a proper one. Then they complain about him and scream for nerfs.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I'm surprised at characters like Toon Link, DHD and GaW being above DK.

DK's one of those characters that everything thinks is fine until they verse a proper one. Then they complain about him and scream for nerfs.

You're surprised about that? I'm surprised about GnW, Robin, and Dr. Mario being even in this list. Seriously, Dr. Mario is still being overhyped by nairo, he has exploitable weaknesses that make a lot of his Mus bad. GnW too.

 

[wedl!!]

If there's anything to be shocked about in terms of GnW it should be the fact that he's top 20.

 

[wpwood]

Please name me three notable players for any hyped up mid tier other than Ike. Please name me three hyped up mid tiers other than Ike who have cracked top 8 at notable tournies.

What defines a hyped up mid tier? That's literally all opinion. I don't think Ike is a hyped up mid tier. I think he's a strong character that other people enjoy watching. Not saying I don't enjoy watching Ike; I just don't give him all the hype other people do. I get the most hype from watching low tiers or underused mid tiers. That's who I enjoy watching. Do I possibly give them too much hype? Yeah I probably do, but that's what I enjoy watching: the niche situations where they shine. A lot of people enjoy watching Ike and I don't. All opinion.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

You're surprised about that? I'm surprised about GnW, Robin, and Dr. Mario being even in this list. Seriously, Dr. Mario is still being overhyped by nairo, he has exploitable weaknesses that make a lot of his Mus bad. GnW too.

Doc really doesn't have that many bad MUs against the high / top tiers though. The only ones that seem truly terrible to me are sonic and rosalina. Doc's tools enable him to do well in most other matchups.

 

[Antonykun]

Is it just me or is the lack of mewtwo in Abadango's list a bit bizarre? I think this is one of the few Japanese "Upper Half" tier list not to place Mewtwo somewhere along the line. He could simply be an outlier though, sort f how ESAM is the only person who believes Pikachu is anywhere near "Top 3"

 

[Thinkaman]

Lucario only benefits the same from rage as any other mid-weight. There's nothing mathematically magic about having two similar mechanics.

 

[Kaladin]

top 100 at EVO with Mac

...Who are you/whats your tag?

Regarding Aba's tier list, I don't see Sonic as top 3. I just don't see it. Could someone please explain to me how Sonic's matchup spread is better than, like, the other good characters'?

 

[Mario766]

This is the Japanese players going off what happens in Japan/What they believe in Japan.

It'll look a lot different compared to our list.

 

[ARGHETH]

You're surprised about that? I'm surprised about GnW, Robin, and Dr. Mario being even in this list.

I'm surprised he put Robin so high without knowing any notable Robins (Japan doesn't have many good Robins, right? There was that one guy at Evo but that's all I know...). Most people without good Robins in the area tend to put him as bottom 15.