Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The Bombs are a waste of time. I've labbed with them extensively and found nothing good about them.

Agreed. The best I could think of is Upthrow into Trip Bomb as a potential kill option, since it reaches so high so fast, but I'd bet the opponent can airdodge by the time you make it up there. If the custom bombs weren't so horrendously nerfed in damage, they wouldn't seem so useless.

 

[EarthenPillar]

If you guys can tell me how to deal with the MU vs shiek that would be great. I'm having a hard time figuring out safe options against her.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ EarthenPillar This is our hardest MU for that very reason. She can perform needles and retreating Fair all day and we can't do jack about it. If we commit to anything, whether it's dashing forward, shielding, or short hopping forward, and she's not in her end lag for throwing needles, we are punished for it.

Your safest option is to walk forward to get some stage control. If Sheik needles, whatever. If Sheik retreating Fairs, whatever. However, the moment she goes in, like if she attempts to dash attack, dash grab, bouncing fish, grenade, or execute a non-retreating Fair, GET HER. Dash attack if you have to, but Bowser Bomb if you can. Don't let that kind of opportunity slip away, because if you do, you're guaranteed lose out to this MU's ridiculous, disproportionate punish game. Well, assuming the Sheik knows what they're doing.

Beyond being a machine and not giving any sign of weakness, the safest option is to pick up a secondary against Sheik. However, if you're like me, Bowser forever, then you have my sympathies.

(Yeah, Sanic ain't got nothin' on Sheik.)

 

[EarthenPillar]

@ EarthenPillar This is our hardest MU for that very reason. She can perform needles and retreating Fair all day and we can't do jack about it. If we commit to anything, whether it's dashing forward, shielding, or short hopping forward, and she's not in her end lag for throwing needles, we are punished for it.

However, if you're like me, Bowser forever, then you have my sympathies.

I understand that the Sheik matchup can be very tough as the character has an abundant amount of safe options and Bowser is penalized for slight mistakes in hurtbox management in this matchup. However I think it's far from a lost cause.

 

[Hitman JT]

Your best bet in Bowser vs. Sheik

Is to unplug their controller then Flying Slam them irl

Then do a Bowser down-taunt on top of them

 

[Jerodak]

I understand that the Sheik matchup can be very tough as the character has an abundant amount of safe options and Bowser is penalized for slight mistakes in hurtbox management in this matchup. However I think it's far from a lost cause.

I agree, really think what needs to happen is for the match-up to get labbed up so we can find out what all of our best options are, One thing I've learned in this game is that no matter how safe a character appears to be, there's always been some part of their game where they leave significant openings, maybe not as big as Bowser's but I'm pretty sure every character has at least one F-smashable moment. We already know that rapid jab finisher on block can be Fsmashed or Down B'd or whatever the preferred punish option is. I've been trying to lab this match up for a bit, if you'd like to help me test some things out that'd be great, we can probably take turns with each character to test out various stuff in certain situations. PM me if you're interested; might be best to communicate via Skype for this.

 

[33percentgod]

I agree, really think what needs to happen is for the match-up to get labbed up so we can find out what all of our best options are, One thing I've learned in this game is that no matter how safe a character appears to be, there's always been some part of their game where they leave significant openings, maybe not as big as Bowser's but I'm pretty sure every character has at least one F-smashable moment. We already know that rapid jab finisher on block can be Fsmashed or Down B'd or whatever the preferred punish option is. I've been trying to lab this match up for a bit, if you'd like to help me test some things out that'd be great, we can probably take turns with each character to test out various stuff in certain situations. PM me if you're interested; might be best to communicate via Skype for this.

Sheik is always air borne and jumping around like a meth addict tweaker. What works for me personally, is to bait her to come after you with the somersault, or the down kick, and PUNISH that with Bowser's upsmash. Going head to head against her never works for me, so I just don't even bother with that. I'll usually short hop into firebreath, bowser fortress her rolls, and wait for her to start jumping around like a psycho and punish those moves.

Seriously, Bowser is about punishing and patience. If she needles you a bunch of times, so what? It might be annoying, but you landing the double jab will do the same, or more, damage that her stupid needle spam does. Don't chase her because you WILL LOSE. Just stay there and let her come to you.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I thought I was being pretty clear and answering the question. From experience, our safest option in neutral is to walk. Beyond that, we don't have anything to poke her with that's safe at all. However, if Sheik attempts to go in, we have answers. When she over-commits, it will be one of these things:

• Dash attack
• Dash grab
• Non-retreating aerials, not just Fair
• Grenade
• Bouncing Fish

Jab 1 will always beat grab. Shield will beat Dash Attack and non-retreating aerials. If an empty aerial is thrown, and it isn't retreating, dash attack is a solid punish. If Sheik attempts to use a grenade, you can dash through the grenade's initial hit box (tough guy) and perform a Bowser Bomb for maximum punish. Bouncing Fish is a huge commitment for Sheik, and as long as you can bait it or outright avoid it, she's free for almost all of our punishes.

No, it's not unwinnable, but it will still be an uphill fight unless the lab discovers something big. We haven't even talked about the sheer girth of Sheik's movement and mix-up options. Fortunately, this will never be as bad as what we experience in Brawl.

 

[Cassius.]

So our best option in neutral is to walk, but suddenly our opponents aren't able to do the same thing? From a walk, Sheik has some of the better options in the game. She doesn't have to dash at us lol

She has A LOT more options than those five man

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

So our best option in neutral is to walk, but suddenly our opponents aren't able to do the same thing? From a walk, Sheik has some of the better options in the game. She doesn't have to dash at us lol

She has A LOT more options than those five man

Hmm, I need to clarify some more.

Those are the only options we can punish. When I typed "over-commit", it was with the intention of saying that "she done goofed" against us. If she walks at us, yeah, the neutral continues to intensify. Also, just because walking is Bowser's safest option, doesn't mean it isn't still underwhelming. That's just how stressful the MU is. Luckily, it's a game of action (including no action) and reaction, so you're never forced to consider walking as a primary option for long.

Looks like I keep misleading you all with my words. Well, let's just chalk it up to salt. Thanks for the patience. I've got nothing else to really add.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My favorite thing to do against shiek is take her to battlefield. The small stage gives her little room to run and charge needles. And if you grab her with flying slam and land on the top platform, it will kill at 60% or some absurdly low number. The platforms also encourage aerial combat more, which is where we excel. Heck, maybe we can platform camp her. She also has trouble killing us, which means delicious rage mode. I also don't really fear her edgeguarding as bowser. UpB is a great move that will only be refreshed by her needles if that's all she tries.

 

[EarthenPillar]

My favorite thing to do against shiek is take her to battlefield.

Stages with platforms above them benefit Bowser for this MU, because of the platforms, they provide earlier killing %s and houses us from Sheik's followups due to the addition of being able to block/punish options while above her. Bowser also benefits from better recovery from such stages.

I however prioritize looking for answers without environmental obstruction in the situation of edge guarding and ground game.

I agree, really think what needs to happen is for the match-up to get labbed up so we can find out what all of our best options are. PM me if you're interested; might be best to communicate via Skype for this.

I'm up for this. I however live all the way in Malaysia and thus the possibility for lag. If you don't mind that risk. I'm willing to take up Sheik tutorials simply to understand how to defeat her with our heavyweight.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm up for this. I however live all the way in Malaysia and thus the possibility for lag. If you don't mind that risk. I'm willing to take up Sheik tutorials simply to understand how to defeat her with our heavyweight.

Yeah that might not work out too well then, sorry about that. However, i'm interested in hearing about whatever you manage to find during your research.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey, Bowser mains, the Greninja boards are going to start a MU discussion on Bowser, so if any of you guys feel like it, any input would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-bowser-2-23-3-2.369356/page-12#post-18645844

No princesses to kidnap there though.

 

[BladerDaBrawler]

Ad spam are dumb.

-ZIGSTA

 

[Zigsta]

Guys, offstage fair WRECKS Samus. I've been playing the Samus MU a lot lately--my bud comes over once a week for a couple hours of friendlies. I've 0-deathed him many times from a simple string of reads to get him offstage at around 40ish percent, followed by two offstage fairs. This puts Samus juuuuuust far enough that she can't get back. Kills her at around 65% or so.

I know a lot of people on these boards have expressed hesitancy to runoff fair, but I'd encourage everyone to try it out more. Characters with limited diagonal recoveries can get gimped at pretty low percents.

 

[Uncle]

In a game where Bowser's recovery distance is better than ever, we can definitely afford to make more runoff fair plays. I'm a supporter of it too, because the reward is often well worth the risk.

 

[Jerodak]

Actually, I've recently been focusing more on my offstage game, I've noticed that I rarely go offstage at all and focus more on capitalizing at the ledge for my edgeguards. It's safer, but I do miss out on free damage and K.O opportunities.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How do you guys feel about turning around and jumping offstage to fair somebody into the wall/lip of the stage? Fair sends somewhat high and doesn't hit as hard as Bair, but the hitbox is way more generous and can blast characters with vertical recoveries into the stage. It does give them an opportunity to tech, but I think even a weak stage spike can secure a stock against several opponents. Maybe after they've bounced off, you can footstool or Bair with your double jump before returning to the ledge with Fortress. Remember that Fortress can't be B reversed, so facing the stage during an edgeguard sounds ideal to me.

 

[Jerodak]

How do you guys feel about turning around and jumping offstage to fair somebody into the wall/lip of the stage? Fair sends somewhat high and doesn't hit as hard as Bair, but the hitbox is way more generous and can blast characters with vertical recoveries into the stage. It does give them an opportunity to tech, but I think even a weak stage spike can secure a stock against several opponents. Maybe after they've bounced off, you can footstool or Bair with your double jump before returning to the ledge with Fortress. Remember that Fortress can't be B reversed, so facing the stage during an edgeguard sounds ideal to me.

Actually not bad as a mix-up because reverse Fair covers a different area, but if you want to make the mix-up less obvious you can use an edge cancel klaw by inputting a side b in the opposite direction you're facing while going offstage to basically walk or run off facing backwards. The stage spike is actually quite effective, and the below/back hit can send them behind you where it might be possible to get a Bair. However, jumping of backwards isn't bad either, it's a bit slower but sometimes you might want the extra height and it might make the opponent think you're going for the Bair and they probably won't expect the Fair stage spike at all.

 

[Cassius.]

hey guys

remember that tech i found/developed back in the 3ds days? ledge cancelled klaw? yeah. that. you can do that

or you can just jump backwards so recovering back to the stage won't be such a tragedy

edit: jerodak ninja'd me once again, fml

 

[Hitman JT]

Everyone's thoughts on vs. ?
I get plenty of training in this MU from a friend and agree that it's probably even. doesn't care about lemons and can dash attack through them, forcing to change up his gameplan since he shuts down most of the other heavies with lemons alone. Still have to be wary of the hitbox from the buster itself though. doesn't really care about Crash Bomb either since only the last hit makes us flinch. Metal blades are annoying but can be caught, but then can freely spam lemons to both clank out the blade and keep us from approaching. Since can't do much to challenge on the ground he's either going to poke with f-air/b-air or grab and go for the f-air juggle. You might be able to u-air in-between his f-airs: I've had my amiibo do it to me but my is ass so idk if that's actually a thing. 's u-air is a problem because of how fat is. Expect to see full hop f-air > u-air a lot here; even if the f-air whiffs, the u-air will probably catch you if you're too slow with your punish. B-air sucks as well....just....don't even bother trying to challenge him if his back is facing you. I can't really recommend a lot of Fire Breath usage here since we don't want him in the air; I mainly use it to bully his recovery. Patience wins here just like many other MUs; bodies you if you go ham but can't do much to you if you don't.

 

[Uncle]

Mega Man forces the approach, which is always an advantageous trait. Bowser is more than capable of getting in on the Blue Bomber thanks to Tough Guy, his generally high movement speed, and waveslashing (if customs are on), though. From there it's mostly a matter of outspacing and outslugging him. Just keep in mind that Rock's got solid weight and some hard-hitting moves in his arsenal, so Bowser doesn't outmuscle him quite as easily as most characters.

Mega Man's Objectives
-Rack up damage on Bowser from afar and force him to approach
-Carefully play around Bowser's Tough Guy passive and defensive options to eventually get him up in the air for aerial juggles
-Knock Bowser far enough offstage to force him to use Fortress to recover, and pay attention to his timing/angling
-Finish him with Charge Shot, Mega Upper, Dsmash, or an appropriate aerial

Bowser's Objectives
-Manmode through lemons and Crash Bomber while avoiding Metal Blades to close the gap without taking too much damage
-Stay grounded unless you see a good aerial opportunity, and defend with Usmash or Fortress when appropriate
-Utilize throws, tilts, and jabs to get Mega Man far enough offstage to force out his Rush Coil.
-Pay attention to Mega Man's recovery timing/angling, and use fire breath, aerials, Dtilt, or Bowser Bomb for edgeguarding/ledge option punishing

Overall, this is a MU where both characters will have to work hard to gain the upper hand. Mega Man will have to break through Bowser's defenses, and Bowser will have to maneuver through Mega Man's weapons. To me, it's either 50-50 or 45-55 in favor of Mega Man. Either way, Tough Guy really pulls its weight in this MU, preventing it from being a clear 40-60 or worse.

 

[Blade Knight]

Uncle you really hit the nail on the head. This matchup in my experience is one of the most annoying to play as Mega Man, because it's one where he is technically avantaged but is still very hard to play right. Bowser can punish any misaction on Mega Man's part extremely hard and playing from behind in this matchup is such a bother.

One thing to note as a bowser player is that Bowser Bomb is better than Down Air in this matchup, because it forces it's way through Air Shooter walls from MM and can punish severely. Air Shooter simply keeps your Down Air aloft for free damage.

 

[MrEh]

It's one of those Samus things where you just gotta run through the walls of crap and find clever ways to get into their face where you can spam Jab.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

I've never fought a good Mega Man as Bowser so I don't know much about this MU, but those long range projectiles can be a headache cuz Bowser's moves are kinda slow so if Mega Man successfully forces the approach then Bowser can be punished.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Themeatgrinder Being forced to approach is not inherently all black. If you are forced to approach, you either succeed in breaking someone's zoning option, maintain your ground, get stopped at a junction in which you take damage and lose ground but can try again, or fail miserably and are sent out of the neutral. There are varying degrees, but this is true for all characters. Megaman isn't special against Bowser in that regard, and the punishment that Bowser can receive for failure to break through isn't big enough to give Megaman a convincing +1.

 

[Zigsta]

I think it's a fairly even-ish MU. I've played both Chilly and Sonicmega, who are the top Megaman mains in SoCal--Sonicmega and I are partners (or at least we used to be before I got super busy with writing right after Apex), and we played each other a ton every tournament.

Megaman actually needs to play this MU VERY differently than normal. MMs like using pellets for spacing, but Bowser's Tough Guy absolutely destroys these. The best MMs are always the ones who adapt and throw out way more Buzzsaws, which are certainly annoying. I recommend jabbing them instead of shielding, as most MMs with throw out a saw to bait a shield so they can grab you. If you time the jab right, you can grab the saw out of the air, and if you clank with the saw, you can go into your second jab/whatever you want to deal with the approaching MM. Megaman typically racks up damage quickly here, and like Truth said earlier, upair is ANNOYING AS HELL OMGGGG. MM is also stupid good offstage against Bowser. That said, when Bowser gets in, he gets in HARD. I've made amazing comebacks against Megaman players thanks to rage Bowser. There have been many times where Sonicmega and I play, and I'm at over 100%, and he's at low percents--only for me to get in, causing him to go "Well crap, I'm about to lose."

 

[Rend4125]

What is shieks worst match up?

 

[Hitman JT]

What is shieks worst match up?

The power button. Can't win if she can't play

In all srsnss, her worst MU is probably Lucario or something.
Sheik doesn't kill...and if Luke doesn't die then the rapture happens.

 

[Rush 2112]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGfgfh7B1Bs&index=17&list=PL1bDxjhQHqiqXpSEY9RZmd94HEWDMsyv_

Here's why metal blades and Uairs are so annoying.

 

[Cassius.]

all i saw was a terrible bowser and like 5 upairs


lmao what

 

[MrEh]

Lag or not, there is something fundamentally wrong with how that Bowser was playing.

 

[Themeatgrinder]

@ Themeatgrinder Being forced to approach is not inherently all black. If you are forced to approach, you either succeed in breaking someone's zoning option, maintain your ground, get stopped at a junction in which you take damage and lose ground but can try again, or fail miserably and are sent out of the neutral. There are varying degrees, but this is true for all characters. Megaman isn't special against Bowser in that regard, and the punishment that Bowser can receive for failure to break through isn't big enough to give Megaman a convincing +1.

So what you're saying is that if you manage to approach, since the char who approaches is at close range the char that forced the approach loses a few options to keep them away (although they still have a few, if the person who approaches slips up).

 

[Hitman JT]

Nevermind.

 

[Greward]

Bowser is way better than I initially thought against Mega Man. Tough guy making him ignore pellets and crash bombers really give him an edge against Mega Man, who has to rely on Metal Blade to camp. This means we will have to approach at some point in time since MB is punishable if you are somewhat close.
Grab and side B are good options to get Mega Man since he is pretty limited to dash shield approaches in the ground. Grounded bowser is hard to deal with as Mega Man, luckily if we get you in the air we should get a ton of damage because of our superior air game. Air Shooter is specially good in this matchup (just like against all biggies) since it can deal a lot of damage and with bowser's mediocre air speed and huge hurtbox it's really easy to hit him.
While Mega Man usually has some problems getting reliable kills it's easy for him to get a bair in this matchup, so we don't suffer that much from that. Bowser recovery is bad so we can get solid gimps, MM's edgeguard game is top tier.
So yeah it's pretty much going for whoever wins the neutral game since both characters have strong punishes if they get the advantage. I believe that MM got an advantage tho, because he has a better time getting back to neutral than bowser. I'd say +1 for MM, although it might depend on the stage ruleset.

 

[Jerodak]

For those who don't already know, R.O.B's fuel does not recover unless his base is touching the ground, and even if it does, it takes about 4-5 seconds for an empty tank to return to full. His fuel does not come back if he ledgegrabs, so when he's recovering low, stage spikes or whatever aren't needed, just breath fire on him till he dies. (:

 

[Hitman JT]

One more thing: when fighting a Megaman that likes to shoot stuff at you as he's returning to the stage, it's laughably easy to run off and f-air him in the face. All is f-air in love and war y'know.

Spoiler

*gets shot*

 

[MrEh]

If he recovers low, runoff Dair him during the ledge grab vulnerability.

Laugh at him.

 

[Jerodak]

If Palutena's Jab clanks with Forward tilt, Bowser gets some frame advantage out of the exchange, on the other hand, if Bowser jab's Palutena's first hit of ftilt, then he has enough time for an Fsmash. If both jabs clank, as long as you're in a safe jab 1 range from Palutena then just buffering a single jab is the best option because you return to neutral at the same time, her jab is slower, and it's safe against every other option. If you're too far for jab to hit, it might be best to shield or try walking away depending on if her jab can still hit or not. The problem with throwing jabs from that range is that if she can jump then SH Dair and SH Fair are free punishes. Dair will hit Bowser's arm, and Fair will hit him in the face. I'll keep poking around to see what else I can find, I feel like it's very important to know how to react properly during a clank.

Edit: I took a closer look at Bowser Ftilt vs Jab frame advantage, it appears to be around 10-12 frames, I got this figure by throwing another Ftilt as soon as I could while having Palutena hold shield and it was power shielded. It looks like this works against all parts of the Jab. Also, if your Ftilt is in range to hit during the clank, it'll just go through and deal it's damage; so far, I haven't found any way to get a follow-up of of the clank stun.

Whoops, I realized my mistake with the way I got my estimate, but it turns out I may have been right anyway, I just tried getting a roll-boosted dash grab immediately after the clank happens and she gets grabbed before her shield even comes out. My timing on the Ftilt earlier might have just been a little off because it can be tricky trying to do some of this stuff in 1/4th hold mode. I might test this out with a friend later on to be sure that it's legit by having them mash roll or spot dodge to try escaping.