Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[MrEh]

Cloud's jab is really damn stupid because he can actually outbox Bowser. And that's really dumb.

 

[S_B]

Cloud's jab is really damn stupid because he can actually outbox Bowser. And that's really dumb.

Agreed.

Bowser kinda has no answer to Cloud in his face, which is the opposite of what Bowser usually wants/has...

Thankfully, if we can force him into a situation where he has to recover, we have plenty of options to stuff him (Dair, Dtilt, FB).

 

[Cronoc]

The thing is, Cloud doesn't really have a shield pressure game, and his throws have no followups. Bowser is very safe in shield against him. And Cloud's attacks often leave an opening, we're not talking about Sheik here. I was just watching some true combos from Cloud's late hit of dair on /r/smashbros. Of course, for any of his confirms to work he has to not hit your shield. That dair is not safe otherwise, as is most of his moveset. The main thing to watch out for and shield is dtilt because of Cloud's juggling followups. If you get nair'd a few times for 8% in the neutral it's no big deal, and the autocanceled short hop version is much like our autocancels - it takes significant time for Cloud to hit the ground after the move is over. It's more vulnerable than it looks. If the nair/uair doesn't come out as Cloud jumps, it's not going to autocancel and can be punished on landing. There's not a whole lot of landing lag, but enough to punish poor spacing with a shield grab or fortress.

Edit: in regards to Jabs, Cloud's may have alright range but it is quite punishable after it finishes. Once he starts just wait in shield. If he tries to cancel the first or second hit into side b wait that out too. Whatever jabs start, there's a punishable moment coming at the end of it. Have no fear that he'll try to cancel into a grab, his grab range is terrible. And honestly his jab doesn't cancel well into other moves anyway.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I might just be bad but it takes a loooong time to kill anything with Cloud outside of a LB attack. Meanwhile on a good day I 3 stock any lvl 8 in less then 2 minutes. As Bowser.

 

[MrEh]

The thing is, Cloud doesn't really have a shield pressure game

Cloud can just Fair your shield all day and the shieldstun is so ludicrously long that it's impossible to punish at most ranges.

Obviously that sets him up to get hit by run up Usmash though. However, if our answer to something is "run up Usmash", then we got some huge problems.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

As far as the competitive community is concerned, all we want to know about the latest DLC character is "how do they stack up against sheik?". But all I can think about is playing him casually at a friend's christmas party. Should be fun.

Cloud can just Fair your shield all day and the shieldstun is so ludicrously long that it's impossible to punish at most ranges.

Obviously that sets him up to get hit by run up Usmash though. However, if our answer to something is "run up Usmash", then we got some huge problems.

That's how most characters are at trying to block punish Bowser. I think what he was trying to say is while Cloud can strike your shield and poke all day at a range. Bowser would instead grab through somebody's shield or attempt to break it with a Bowser Bomb. People aren't wired to deal with the idea of being grabbed by an opponent who is airborne, but we can do that as Bowser as a mixup from short hop Fairs and etc.

 

[Cronoc]

Cloud can just Fair your shield all day and the shieldstun is so ludicrously long that it's impossible to punish at most ranges.

Obviously that sets him up to get hit by run up Usmash though. However, if our answer to something is "run up Usmash", then we got some huge problems.

Cloud's fair does have good shieldstun, but it's a committal move. I'd speculate it'd be beaten by a roll towards him, but in one way or another it's not going to make or break the matchup. It's the sort of approach that gets ruined if we move out of the place Cloud predicts we will be in. Or perfect shield it... It's not like Ike's nair or something, there are no followups and after the shieldstun and Cloud's fair landing lag we're back at neutral.

 

[MrEh]

It's like Ike. He doesn't have to actively approach with a move. Sometimes you can just throw out a big move in someone's face to counterpoke and to stuff approaches.

And since Bowser has to approach in this matchup, it's one of those things that works fairly often.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Gonna test Cloud's projectile later folks. Might be big enough we can just Bair it away and keep moving.

It's pretty weak.

 

[MrEh]

I was beating it out with something earlier. I think I might have just been jabbing it? I don't remember.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I was beating it out with something earlier. I think I might have just been jabbing it? I don't remember.

Gonna take it a step further and try canceling out his LB version. If it does I'll be amused.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You can beat it with fire breath, at least from the air.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Pointless with Fire Breath. Too much cooldown. We gain nothing.

 

[S_B]

Gonna take it a step further and try canceling out his LB version. If it does I'll be amused.

You can jab or Ftilt the normal version, but the LB version is a multihit move and has some special property to it, I believe.

I don't think you'll be able to cancel it by hitting it.

I think the biggest problem with Cloud is that he's capable of vomiting disjointed hitboxes all over the place and he can do it rather quickly. Even when Bowser DOES succeed in getting a hitbox out there before Cloud hits him, it'll probably clank with something he's throwing out and Bowser will lose frame advantage. I suspect this is going to be a matchup where it's a PITA to get Cloud off the stage, but once he's there we should be able to stuff him.

I just watched Vinnie play some Cloud on stream at The Molly Whop tourney in NY and he absolutely destroyed Raptor's Yoshi...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'll test it tomorrow but I just like seeing what we can get away with. That said I don't think Cloud will be a big issue in the long run.

 

[S_B]

Here's ZeRo's analysis of him:

I really don't see this as being a favorable matchup for Bowser. Cloud just has too many ways to severely punish us for any laggy move...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I just watched NinajLink test Kuraudo's LB Neutral B. It's transcendent. MagiusNecros

 

[MagiusNecros]

I just watched NinajLink test Kuraudo's LB Neutral B. It's transcendent. MagiusNecros

Saves me some time then.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Looks like we'll have to wait a week for people to stop gunning for Finishing Touch every time their gauge is full, despite LB Cross Slash or even LB Climhazard (which has invulnerability and trample lol) being amazing.

 

[Jerodak]

Pretty sure most of us know about clashing through bowling balls using fortress. However, because that only works on uncharged bowling balls it may be helpful to know that up air and f-air appear to go through full charged bowling balls and the tree just fine, so spacing those to hit villager may be a valid option in those situations. Not sure if it was mentioned before or not.

 

[Cronoc]

Pretty sure most of us know about clashing through bowling balls using fortress. However, because that only works on uncharged bowling balls it may be helpful to know that up air and f-air appear to go through full charged bowling balls and the tree just fine, so spacing those to hit villager may be a valid option in those situations. Not sure if it was mentioned before or not.

Helpful to know. I've always wondered what those people were talking about cause the Villager over the ledge scenario unfortunately almost always involves a charged bowling ball, and my fortress would never clank with it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Looks like we'll have to wait a week for people to stop gunning for Finishing Touch every time their gauge is full, despite LB Cross Slash or even LB Climhazard (which has invulnerability and trample lol) being amazing.

Finishing Touch is for sissies. LB CS ignores shields and Climhazzard is also sorts of awesome.

 

[Cronoc]

Finishing Touch is for sissies. LB CS ignores shields and Climhazzard is also sorts of awesome.

Wait what, limit break cross slash goes through shields? I could swear I've shielded that.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wait what, limit break cross slash goes through shields? I could swear I've shielded that.

Seems to be the case when I was practicing in training against a lvl 8 DK.

Edit: Yeah man. LB Cross Slash goes through shields. Gonna verify for sure but this Lvl 9 Samus took all the hits when it powershielded.

Edit 2: Cpu's threw me off. Seems for whatever reason they are programed to shield the initial hit. You were right you can shield LB Cross Slash.

In any case I much prefer those 2 over Finishing touch. FT is kinda like Bowser's Fsmash IMO.

 

[33percentgod]

I just came on here after being beaten 6 - nothing by a Cloud. I have no idea on how to approach him. He feels like fighting Yoshi, but with much higher killing power. The thing I can't stand about Yoshi is how his moves have no wait period at the end, he just snaps a move, misses, and gets to immediately snap another smash attack. That's how it feels going up against Cloud (to me, anyway.) I can't figure out a way to do this match up. If we wait/bait they just Limit camp. And then they short hop neutral or back air nonstop to get you when you DO approach.

Also, what's the recovery method against Cloud? Because I have been spiked literally EVERY single time. They just have to sit at the end and go for dair, and with the length of the sword, they get it (safely) almost every time against me. With Bowser's predictable recovery I feel like I have no way to avoid the length of the dair spike by Cloud.

It just gets frustrating when a brand new character has so much potential to steam roll us, yet Bowser mains a year later are still watching Bowser's arm go through people trying to side-b.

I know it's still early, but I just can't figure out a game plan for Cloud. I feel like he's going to be my next Sonic.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

33percentgod
So what's the Cloud's game plan? Are they spamming (aerial) blade beam? Are they dash dancing or limit charge canceling to bait you? Are they out spacing you with retreating NAir or frame canceled FAir into DTilt? All of the above?

There's not much we can tell you about Cloud. You already know how bad he is against shields. You already know the properties of his LB specials, his frame data, his damage, and his utterly poor grab. You will have to treat Cloud like Link. You have to stay at the range of his DTilt and wait for him to screw up. You will have to shield a lot and remember to mix it up with rolls or spot dodge when you think they'll try and grab you out of frustration.

As for the recovery, without an idea of where you are and how you DI, we have no way of giving you good advice.

 

[33percentgod]

33percentgod You will have to treat Cloud like Link. You have to stay at the range of his DTilt and wait for him to screw up. You will have to shield a lot and remember to mix it up with rolls or spot dodge when you think they'll try and grab you out of frustration.

Just got back from another 5 - 0 match up against Cloud. I did this time realize why I am having such a hard time against him. The dtilt. How do you recover against it? I get stuck in Dtilt to UAirhell on a loop. And apparently Cloud's up air has priority against ALL of Bowsers moves. So what happens is any time I get hit with dtilt, it's followed up with UAir and then it's just free damage give away with me trying to get back down onto the stage, because all they have to do is chase me around like a game of ping pong using UAir. You know how it is to try to get back on the stage as Bowser. And the whole time I'm up there, they are just building Limit Break, so when I DO finally land, I'm at a high % and they just hit Limit Break and game is over. Rinse and repeat.

How do you avoid being comboed into hell after being hit with Dtilt by Cloud?

Edit: Also, I'm convinced our grabs aren't fully working on Cloud. There are multiple times I see my grabs, especially side B, just literally go right through Cloud. I actually saved a replay where Side B went right through Cloud, he rolled behind me, Side B went through him again, he rolled to the other side behind me again, and for a THIRD time side B goes through his body. What the F is going on?? This is the stuff people are sick of. Putting out games with issues on day 1 and trying to patch it to make it playable. Stop worrying about buffs and fix and the actual game engine and hit boxes. Christ on a cracker.

 

[PyroTakun]

Hey guys, we're discussing the Bowser MU over at Ike boards. Stop by and give us some insight on the 1.1.3 Bowser!

http://smashboards.com/threads/prepare-yourself-ike-match-up-thread.372316/page-22#post-20628936

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Rejoice my fellow Bowsers! As of 1.1.3, we have a (more or less) guaranteed kill option!

Edit:Also, ayyyyyy, I noticed someone else thinks the double post rule is stupid! Also, even though it's still a dictatorship and not a democracy: #trumpforsmashboardspresident2016

 

[Swooch on in]

Hello bowser boards. have you all discussed the mario match and captain falcon match up with the new updates yet, or if we could discuss that

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey, we can go offstage to edgeguard them safer now. All the runoff Fairs that we want. If they airdodge through, we follow them to that ledge with Fortress for the ledge trump. We couldn't do that before, and then they would let go of the ledge and Bair us for trying, or just get back on stage for free.

Falcon's neutral is dangerous, but it is predictable. There's only one place he wants to be at any point in time, and that's in your face. So fighting him is a lot of jabbing. Go for Jab 1+2, Ftilts and Dtilts, occasional pivot grabs and Fire Breath to stay unpredictable, and Forward and Back Throws to put him where he least wants to be, offstage. His recovery is begging you to hit him, and be prepared to ledge tech in case your timing is off and you get grabbed. Fighting him normally is a better option now as well with the new Uthrow. He's largely vulnerable from below, so wracking up the damage to kill him is quicker and safer than it's ever been. But I feel like even if you didn't cheese this fight by expoiting his weakness, most stocks would still be taken with a simple edgeguard scenario. The only difference being that you killed Falcon while he was at 90% rather than 30%.

Stick to what you know about Falcon, his Dthrow combos don't work on us (weight based). DI away, and double jump if he ever attempts to hit you with a followup. Aerials work magnificently for him. If you're caught in a falling Uair at kill percent, be ready to DI toward the stage for the followup Fair, or tech the ground if he's coming at you with Dair. That Dair of his is brutal for our own recovery, if you're not too far from the stage, consider burning double jump near the ledge so you can airdodge past him. Otherwise, be as creative as you can with your directions on Fortress. Directly up is the best, but predictable. Horizontal movement puts us at a high risk for meteors, but it's a necessary mixup. Stand your ground. There is no reason for you to approach this guy unless he's playing defensive (and really, what defensive options does Falcon have?). Jab his grounded approaches but don't finish the jab combo unless you've certainly struck him. Ftilt aerial approaches. Block punish Raptor Boost with Bomb, block punish Falcon Kick with Dash grab, or Fsmash if he was just that unsafe with his spacing.

For Mario, not much has changed. Use Dair to landing break his Dthrow combos at 0-30%. Walk and shield his puny projectiles, only run if he's airborne and about to land. Don't get too optimistic with edgeguarding, his Up B is too well disjointed to hit reasonably. He's vulnerable to attack from below when airborne. Our new Uthrow should make this matchup more consistent to beat, but he's still plenty dangerous when we get too aggressive with grabs. Keep him at our range where only we can hit him.

 

[Swooch on in]

Ok thanks a ton for that zapp. The top 2 in my area main those characters respectively and bowser and Ike and toon link are my characters so I have been asking each match up board for advice

 

[Illusion.]

Discussion on the Bowser MU is about to begin, your input would be appreciated.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-week-6-yoshi-bowser-12-28-1-4.369356/page-32

 

[constable lemon]

In the Robin matchup, I've been having trouble closing in space. It seems her projectiles, especially arcfire, are perfect at not only keeping Bowser out, but also trapping him into big damage. With both players being patient, Robin has the tools to win the neutral with her specials, and there's no way to catch her approaches because she absolutely doesn't have to. Bowser is so big, and arcfire near the ledge covers pretty much everything. I can capitalize on mistakes pretty big and hit her offstage hard, but it's like running into a brick wall when she has stage control. Even when I shield arcfire, I have to sit in shield and take whatever else comes next, or get shield poked. Landing with firebreath can help keep a thunder or arcfire off of me, but it doesn't really get me anywhere. Any advice on this one?

 

[33percentgod]

In the Robin matchup, I've been having trouble closing in space. It seems her projectiles, especially arcfire, are perfect at not only keeping Bowser out, but also trapping him into big damage. With both players being patient, Robin has the tools to win the neutral with her specials, and there's no way to catch her approaches because she absolutely doesn't have to. Bowser is so big, and arcfire near the ledge covers pretty much everything. I can capitalize on mistakes pretty big and hit her offstage hard, but it's like running into a brick wall when she has stage control. Even when I shield arcfire, I have to sit in shield and take whatever else comes next, or get shield poked. Landing with firebreath can help keep a thunder or arcfire off of me, but it doesn't really get me anywhere. Any advice on this one?

I'm in the same boat. I kept playing a Robin the other day and they beat me over and over. I would be caught in arcfire and then f-aired over and over and over. And she would never approach because why would she? Just sit on the end of the stage and charge neutral B, then spam arcfire and f-air. Rinse and repeat flow chart.

The only thing that really worked for me was just charge them and pray fortress caught or go for the u-throw u-tilt combo. Nothing really else worked for me and even that lasted one match until they caught on.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

constable lemon and 33percentgod

Robin can be a bit of a challenging matchup and the projectiles seem nightmarish but it is quite manageable with the correct approach methods.

The first and most important thing you need to utilize here is to tilt your shield forward. This is done by shielding and gently pressing forward while doing so to push it further in front of you. What this does is ignite both Arcfire and Arc thunder early, allowing Bowser the capacity to run or roll backwards away from the projectile safely. This is best achieved by walking towards Robin, where you can both shield more easily and readily have your shield placed further almost immediately. Arcfire is the main projectile you need to worry about but fortunately she has a limit to it. Try to bait out Arc fires with both shielding and feint retreats (get up close, then run backwards). Remember to remain patient and don't go ham, otherwise this will lead to serious damage and potentially stock ending levels of it.

Second is spacing. Don't get too close to Robin and if necessary, walk up and then walk/run backward. The amount of space you want to maintain would be roughly 1/4 of FD. This way, you're not too close for Robin to run in and grab while also not too far not to have a problem dashing in. Once you do get in on Robin, running to shield to jab can be an excellent way to apply pressure and dish out damage but this must only be done once the projectile wall has been dealt with.

Furthermore, be wary of falling Nosferatu or an up-b right above your head. Shadow Robin's movements in the air but be ready to roll through or away from them in case of the above. Once they've done either, run in, grab and toss them to get them out of the neutral. Once they're off-stage too, you can potentially off-stage b-air but a more safer option is to run off and f-air or firebreath the edge to get them to waste their recovery.

If they're camping the edge, a surprisingly effective method is grounded fire breath. This not only stops the projectiles dead but also can put on shield pressure. Alternatives are to jab1 feint to make them spot dodge, then run in and either grab and OoS up-b. F-tilt at close range can also be very effective as occasionally if you hit it just as they fire out a projectile, your fist will smack Robin in the gob while stopping the projectile right in front of you.

Finally, if you do get caught in a projectile and sent skyward, do NOT panic. DI up and away, do not fast fall and save your second jump. Possibly the best way to land here is fast fall fire breath to cover any further projectiles or simply retreat for the edge. Don't float towards Robin as that's asking for more pain.

Good luck in the MU and hope this helps.

 

[Cronoc]

I don't want to sound unhelpful, but after struggling with the Robin matchup I'd rather just use Cloud now. He's a pretty easy secondary to pick up (I mean, if I can play him alright that's saying something). Sword range and his projectile shut down Robin's long range game (neutral b pops Robin's arcthunders so unless they have thoron charged it's safe to spam it at range), and they either approach or deal with me charging a limit break, giving me a transcendent projectile that can punish arcfire zoning. I find it so nice to be Robin's problem, rather than the other way around.

As Bowser, I feel this matchup is a matter of who is more patient. Unfortunately, While Robin does his bread and butter zoning game with charge projectiles and arcfire, the Bowser player has to be the one to shield all those properly, making it much more difficult to be patient on his side.

 

[TheGreatShal]

Been a while since I've been on here.

I recently went to my very first Smash 4 tournament, and while I thought I did alright for my first time, I have some issues.

When I got to the second round, of course of all people I would be picked to go on stream. The person I played was a Bowser ditto. Needless to say, I got my ass handed to me. I don't know why, but when I saw someone else play my character, I paniced and had no idea what to do against him. Does anyone have any good ideas on dittos?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Been a while since I've been on here.

I recently went to my very first Smash 4 tournament, and while I thought I did alright for my first time, I have some issues.

When I got to the second round, of course of all people I would be picked to go on stream. The person I played was a Bowser ditto. Needless to say, I got my *** handed to me. I don't know why, but when I saw someone else play my character, I paniced and had no idea what to do against him. Does anyone have any good ideas on dittos?

Bowser dittos are never fun. Bowser can punish Bowser, edgeguard Bowser, kills as early as Bowser, etc.

Stick to what you know Bowser can't deal with. Fire Breath is almost totally non-negotiable for covering Bowser's landings, and stopping his approach. It's free damage and safe to use as long as you don't get too optimistic at close range. Keep your spacing in case he successfully blocks your attacks, only our Jab has so little endlag that we can block an OoS Fortress after being blocked. Everything else should be used at medium to maximum range to avoid his harder punishes. Go for grabs and side B so that block punishes are no longer a factor, but don't get too hungry for grabs, or you'll be jabbed every time before reaching him. Stay on the ground, try to maintain the center of the stage so that you might edgeguard him. Fortress is fairly reasonable to hit with aerials, and a very large target for Dair dunks if you're a stock ahead. Always take the opportunity to Bowsercide him if you've taken the first stock. It's a fast way of ensuring they don't turn a match around when you're in the lead.

Beyond playing smart, there's no tricks. The better player will typically win in a ditto match. Don't get frustrated with the idea of being the worse Bowser when you're losing. If you believe hard enough that there's no way to win, then it will be so.

 

[S_B]

While not a "matchup", per se, here's a list of common tourney legal stages and their ceilings (full list here).

The number value is the minimum % it takes to kill Falcon (I think) with Mario's Utilt from the center of the stage (no DI). Bottom line, the higher the number, the taller the stage:

Usual Starting Stages:
Battlefield 212
Smashville 204
Final Destination 204
Town and City 200
Dreamland 204

Usual Counterpick Stages:
Duck Hunt 204
Lylat Cruise 204

Since we now have a reliable option for killing off the top (and it's not like klaw is bad for that, either), it looks like TnC is our best choice for that, with FD, SV and Dreamland all being good starter choices as well with only 4% more needed.

I guess this raises the question: I know Bowser likes BF for a lot of reasons, but it's a whole 8-12% more damage needed to kill off the top vs. all of the other starters and counterpicks.

What do we think? Are BF's platforms worth it over, say, Dreamland's, or should we be purely going for stages with the lowest ceilings for making Shell Shock kills happen that much sooner?