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tarheeljks

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,857
Location
land of the free
he's tempbanned.

sometimes not being able to grasp nuances of matchups is due to more "major" flaws in skill, but i think for most players it is a function of experience.
 
S

ShrieK1295

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
371
people's problems with "matchups" is that playing vs certain characters emphasizes certain nuances over others.

for example a lot of falcons don't have perfect timing off uthrows v a sheik or a marth. if you can't knee sheik from uthrow at 60% or w/e it is every single time then you're gonna get exposed. but that has more to do with the falcon's lack of skill than an inherent deficiency in the matchup.

and the falcon death combos on sheik are far from theoretical. at low percents you dthrow to tech chase. at middle percents you uthrow and chain nair/uair and/or bait second jumps with dash dancing. at middle-higher percents it's a knee to grab the ledge to another knee or a stomp/reverse knee if you so choose. he even has shield pressure on sheik due to the frame advantage from kneeing her shield.
Click to expand...
I agree with this totally.. but I still don't think it's 50/50 -.-

edit: I thought about it some more and I think the problem is that we don't agree on what constitutes 50/50. I don't think a matchup that is even when both people play flawlessly is the same as a matchup that is 50/50. I think difficulty of execution is an important factor to take into account. If what I have to do is much harder, yet as effective if executed properly, I don't think this constitutes a matchup being equal.
 
Hax

Hax

Smash Champion
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
2,552
Location
20XX
yeah me vs hbox wasn't streamed but it was recorded. it was pretty sick

nah i'm not gonna retire i just don't have anyone to play with. gonna hit up cactuar and m2k this summer and try to get jman back into smash
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Luigi sucks just don't get hit by wavedash -> move / double aerials
Also go out to edgeguard him
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
if you choose to be a homo its 70-30, not bad at all

most luigis attempt to do their n-air gimmick which you block --> free shield grab in most cases unless they are actuallyi good
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Oh yeah that
Don't go for combos that obviously don't work or you'll get Naired out of them
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
1,175
Location
NJ
i was thinking that since falcon can keep up with weeg on the ground, and jump circles around him it would be 80-20, but then i remember the gimping, so its a 70-30 in my mind as well,

about sheild grabbing, i rarely get sheild grabs on good weegs because they know how to use well vertically spaced aerails to trap me.

is the utilt useful at all for edgegaying?
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Dude how are you getting gimped by Luigi <_< come on now you're not Fox ... just up-b mad high

Uptilt sucks, they sweetspot past everything

Just go out there and kill them for doing bad side-b's, much easier to punish than up-b
All you have to do is avoid their misfire trajectory

If they're good they'll change up how long they charge missiles to make it a little harder, but it's probably still the best time to hit them
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
luigis recovery is bad enough that anything works, including up-tilt obviously
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
I don't think you can uptilt a Luigi that's good at sweetspotting up-b
Or at least, it'd probably be way harder than just stomping the ledge
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
1,175
Location
NJ
by getting gimped i meant getting wall of prioritied off the stage then getting ruthlessly aeriald, weeg can take his pic. its not as bad as the face danimals but falcon gets gimped by everybody and thier mother so well, yeah. i think that utilt might work if it catches them offguard. but if they are ready to sweetspot with the mario bros ledgesnap they probs not
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
if ur getting gimped its mostly a problem of spacing/ or they are better than u

i find that most people whine about falcon's "bad" recovery, but its mostly them not mixing up their recovery or their own fault for being in a bad spot
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
1,175
Location
NJ
im not getting gimped often, its just that his ledgedrop dairs can f falcon up. also he is certainly not better than me i might just be bad vs weeg as falcon. (sorry cinbad)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
it could if u get hit but if ur gettting hit by stuff like that its mostly ur fault
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Just don't wind up directly below him when he's on the ledge ... jump a little away from the ledge before up-b'ing or something
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
1,175
Location
NJ
i am always trying to mixup my falcon recoveries but it can get predictable at times. because he really only has a few options.
 
B

Bob Money

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
Messages
913
Location
Concord
While I agree with Adam's argument about the shiek falcon matchup being closer to even than its currently regarded I have some counter points that can perhaps shed some light to why that matchup seems more difficult/easier to some falcons.

1. Not all falcons CC/hold down/anticipate situations during their moves to mitigate shieks combo potential on trades/winning moves. There is a huge difference between a player who knows how to/or does CC tech moves and one who doesn't.

2.Many shieks do not CC filt. (self-explanatory) very valuable in this matchup

3.Many Falcons do not know how to reset situations vs shiek and resort to jumping out of shield or attacking at spots with a high probably of failure.

4. Too many falcons spam up air when shiek is on a platform and never get the most of a tech chase situation in regards to percent.

5. Many falcons don't understand how to trade hits with shiek intelligently. Shieks aerials make her very vulnerable at most percents.

6. Shieks dont uptilt and catch rolls on reaction when behind falcons shield.

7. Hax and Johnnys movement is something that you can't really teach is soemthing you need to experiment yourself and be comfortable with by understanding that simply getting hit doesnt make something "unsafe"

Those are just my observations from sooo many years of playing this game. Really though in all honesty this matchup is def in shieks favor because she can do everything in this matchup better than falcon except maybe kill when falcon is staying grounded and shielding smartly looking for clean hits. IMO this matchup revolves around falcon looking for clean hits and not playing around in front of shiek, if you can do that the matchup will be closer to 50-50. Suffice to say I say its a 60/55-40 matchup because the percentage of error on falcons part is much higher when we get to mid to high percentages.
 
ZoSo

ZoSo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
2,885
Location
Melee
he's entitled to his opinion. pretty sure he'd get exposed ez if he ever left socal.
 
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