Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[SMBEffect]

While I think MookieRah and Gimpyfish made good points, I must disagree. Each smash game is getting more defensive, and less offensive. This was obvious with Melee in that we now had sidestep dodging, airdodging, and other techniques. In smash 64, all we had were attacks to counter, our recoveries, edge hogging, edge guarding, and a small, easy to break bubble shield. In Brawl, we have everything from the previous two smash games, plus nerfed grabs (can't chain or combo much with them), perfect shielding, it's easier to shield grab, multiple air dodging, auto-sweet spotting edges, edge hugging, and so forth. We got TONS OF DEFENSE!

The problem is...we don't know the full game yet. We only know the game AS OF NOW! We've dug in, but we haven't struck our gold yet. With Melee, we found wavedashing. And L-cancelling. And then everything else. We've found tons of small jackpots, but we're DEFINITELY MISSING SOMETHING BIG! I can seriously feel it. Whatever we're missing is really, really, big. Like almost as big of a discovery as wavedashing (though L-cancelling was a better discovery! >_<). I think right now we have to focus getting all around better. I have a pretty good Toon Link right about now. I need, and can get better, offensively, defensively, and with range, grab timing, and my recovery. All of us basically still need to work on those areas. We need to keep improving our game, and keeping our eyes open. And let us not forget the advanced damage system mechanism.

But all in all, I think Brawl was a game made to be a competitive game for 3 or 4 years as the basis of the smash community, not 7. Not to say it isn't deep, it's just diffrent from Melee and smash 64. I think while those two games' competitve scene was DI and combo orientated, Brawl is diffrent. It is simply the basic defenese vs. offense, defense vs. defense, offense vs. offense, air vs. land, land vs. laand, air vs. air, and the combination of the such put into one, along with technical attacks, some advanaced teechniques, and above all, strategy (strategies). The advanced competitve scene gameplay is definitely a much diffrent one, and we still gotta dig around for what exactly it is. Still, good things are found it time, for those who are patient enough to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. With Melee, we didn't find really anything until 2003. With Brawl, we're just the opposite, but we're not finding what we need to find, and a lot of it is making what we're trying to stop (defense beats all) game play. >_>

At any rate, I feel like Sakurai's a big admirer of a Ju-Jitsu fighting style, e.g. relying on a strong defense to allow you time to wait for holes in your opponent's approach and utilize their mistakes and misplaced momentum against them. Whether he's taken this concept too far and create a campfest for all time remains to be seen. IMO, we really need to stop judging this game until it at least hits its 6 month anniversary. It isn't even a month old in North America.

I have to agree with the quoted posters. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet, and we're already saying that it's doomed for failure? I'm sure we've only scratched the surface of this game, and like I said previously, it's a brand new game. It took quite a long time for things to be discovered it Melee, and everything we learned built up over the years.

These two posters basically said it all. Rather Brawl is a new game and we need to play a different style competitively, or we can give it the time we gave Melee and discover new things. Maybe the game is not was Melee was, but can we tell that quite yet? We could certaintly say so after a year or so, but to complain not even a month after release just sounds like a waste of effort.

Why don't we focus our efforts on improving the game, eh?

 

[Lavos]

Oops! Sorry, apparently I did quote you. Yeah, running about telling people who don't like Brawl to cut their wrists is really annoying. Please stop.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Oops! Sorry, apparently I did quote you. Yeah, running about telling people who don't like Brawl to cut their wrists is really annoying. Please stop.

Who's arguing here? Seems like you can't make a joke around these parts w/o people tackling you for it.

Seems like you can't make a joke around these parts w/o people tackling you for it.

Seems like you can't make a joke around these parts .

make a joke

joke

JOKE

Hmmm... 10char, yo

 

[Fletch]

The problem is...we don't know the full game yet. We only know the game AS OF NOW! We've dug in, but we haven't struck our gold yet. With Melee, we found wavedashing. And L-cancelling. And then everything else. We've found tons of small jackpots, but we're DEFINITELY MISSING SOMETHING BIG! I can seriously feel it. Whatever we're missing is really, really, big. Like almost as big of a discovery as wavedashing (though L-cancelling was a better discovery! >_<). I think right now we have to focus getting all around better. I have a pretty good Toon Link right about now. I need, and can get better, offensively, defensively, and with range, grab timing, and my recovery. All of us basically still need to work on those areas. We need to keep improving our game, and keeping our eyes open. And let us not forget the advanced damage system mechanism.

While I hope you are right, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this is the case. We know Sakurai did everything in his power to remove anything that could make this game competitive, and the likeliness of him burying some crazy technique that the thousands of smashers who have already poured tons of hours into the game haven't found yet is pretty unlikely. This is just blind hope, and there's no evidence pointing to us finding anything game-breaking.

 

[S0crat3s]

I have to agree with the quoted posters. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet, and we're already saying that it's doomed for failure? I'm sure we've only scratched the surface of this game, and like I said previously, it's a brand new game. It took quite a long time for things to be discovered it Melee, and everything we learned built up over the years.

These two posters basically said it all. Rather Brawl is a new game and we need to play a different style competitively, or we can give it the time we gave Melee and discover new things. Maybe the game is not was Melee was, but can we tell that quite yet? We could certaintly say so after a year or so, but to complain not even a month after release just sounds like a waste of effort.

Why don't we focus our efforts on improving the game, eh?

Amen!

Like I said before, in comparison to Melee, Brawl isn't going back (regressing), going forward (progressing), but up (changing)...

I'd make a big wall of text, but I'm too lazy, so go read the "Perfect Combos are as Unfair as Tripping" thread...

 

[Johnknight1]

Good post.

And wow, this thread is a cesspool of thought. A lot of the posts in here are pretty ridiculous.

At any rate, I feel like Sakurai's a big admirer of a Ju-Jitsu fighting style, e.g. relying on a strong defense to allow you time to wait for holes in your opponent's approach and utilize their mistakes and misplaced momentum against them. Whether he's taken this concept too far and create a campfest for all time remains to be seen. IMO, we really need to stop judging this game until it at least hits its 6 month anniversary. It isn't even a month old in North America.

I think when Sakurai made the game competitvely, he wanted it to be simple. Defense heavily beats offense. But there are multiple forms of defense, and one form of defense is strong and weak against others. Sometimes, offensive is the counter. Sometimes, grabbing. Also, like stated by someone before (sorry, I can't remember your name), instead of long bursts of long combos, we get quick bursts of quick combos. I actually just had a intresting thought. What if you hit a opponent, tricked them into a position and/or a movement, and whatever move you did next was unavodiable? I think that, also a certain type of combo, is what Sakurai intended.

Mindgaming your foes into a combo. Sounds oddly ironic, yet it sounds like the new combo system, and I guess it works. I've had it to where as my Toon Link a boomerang I threw is coming back to me, I just threw a bomb and my foe shielded it's first hit, and I'm about to fAir them. They can't dodge the boomerang, bomb's second bounce of their sheild, AND MY FAIR! So I fAired them, they dodged the boomerage because of that, the bomb hit them in air, and I fAired them again. Sorta a combo, but rather a quick burst, compared to some stuff we've done in Melee.

Seems like mind gaming foes = new combos? Regardless, there is A LOT more focus and a much diffrent technicality in mindgames now. Our job now, is to EXPLOIT THEM!

@ fletch71011
Yes, it is blind hope, but I just have this gut feeling. You can call me niave, and you can say there is no way to prove it, yet there is absolutely no way to disprove it. In which the latter is why I think it will happen. We're sooo caught up in being sad that Brawl isn't more like Melee, instead of it's bipolar opposite. Once we reconize it for what it is, the best techniques, information, and everything else WILL COME! I can almost guarentee it, even if it is nothing but blind hope.

 

[S0crat3s]

Yes I know, but he is still a professional smasher and I think that his observations of competitive play and of the trend that game is taking carry some weight.


I'm not saying that we should listen to whatever any "pro" smasher says and accept it has the ultimate truth for smash, but I do think his observations outweigh someone who I can only assume has little experience with competitive smash.

Let him be Ken, for all I care...Just because you make money on a game's predecessor doesn't give his ideas and thoughts any more weight than someone who's played Brawl as long as he has...

(my apologies for the double post)

 

[Fletch]

Amen!

Like I said before, in comparison to Melee, Brawl isn't going back (regressing), going forward (progressing), but up (changing)...

I'd make a big wall of text, but I'm too lazy, so go read the "Perfect Combos are as Unfair as Tripping" thread...

There were very few "perfect combos" in Melee, play the game and actually know what you are talking about next time. The creator of that thread is an idiot.

I think when Sakurai made the game competitvely, he wanted it to be simple. Defense heavily beats offense. But there are multiple forms of defense, and one form of defense is strong and weak against others. Sometimes, offensive is the counter. Sometimes, grabbing. Also, like stated by someone before (sorry, I can't remember your name), instead of long bursts of long combos, we get quick bursts of quick combos. I actually just had a intresting thought. What if you hit a opponent, tricked them into a position and/or a movement, and whatever move you did next was unavodiable? I think that, also a certain type of combo, is what Sakurai intended.

Mindgaming your foes into a combo. Sounds oddly ironic, yet it sounds like the new combo system, and I guess it works. I've had it to where as my Toon Link a boomerang I threw is coming back to me, I just threw a bomb and my foe shielded it's first hit, and I'm about to fAir them. They can't dodge the boomerang, bomb's second bounce of their sheild, AND MY FAIR! So I fAired them, they dodged the boomerage because of that, the bomb hit them in air, and I fAired them again. Sorta a combo, but rather a quick burst, compared to some stuff we've done in Melee.

Seems like mind gaming foes = new combos? Regardless, there is A LOT more focus and a much diffrent technicality in mindgames now. Our job now, is to EXPLOIT THEM!

@ fletch71011
Yes, it is blind hope, but I just have this gut feeling. You can call me niave, and you can say there is no way to prove it, yet there is absolutely no way to disprove it. In which the latter is why I think it will happen. We're sooo caught up in being sad that Brawl isn't more like Melee, instead of it's bipolar opposite. Once we reconize it for what it is, the best techniques, information, and everything else WILL COME! I can almost guarentee it, even if it is nothing but blind hope.

The problem with this new emphasis on mind-gaming your opponent is that Melee had it as well, and gave a lot more options for you to actually trick your opponent. Brawl is just a watered-down version of Melee's system and with things like wavedashing removed, there is less of a chance to "mindgame" your opponent. And we'll see about the new techniques, but it's just that there hasn't been anything promising thus far.

 

[DD151]

i can't recall how many times ankoku/whoever it was posted that this belief in "brawl MUST have something hidden to offer" is difficult to both argue for and against and shouldn't even be a valid point.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ You mean AlphaZealot?

Edit: @ fletch71011


And what makes you think Brawl is a water-downed Melee in the long run? It is...offensively. But defensively, it's got a lot of depth. The problem is, we haven't translated the defensive depth to further the offensive depth. And on top of that, we haven't found all the techs. Like this new Pikachu quick attack cancel, that increases speed and crap. Stuff like that, I think, is suppose to be what offense is supported off. The offense meta-game will probably be supported and will live off advanced (offensive) techniques. We gotta dig more, and find more. This Quick Attack cancel was only a few pieces of gold. We haven't found anywhere near the whole pot of gold yet.

Depth = needs more time. Even amongst Street Fighter sequals, they were given negative reaction by their fans, and their "new gameplay" and depth was found IN TIME, not immediately. The game hasn't even been out three months in Japan. We STILL found Melee techs were generally found in 2006 and early 2007. WOAW! Not everything is going to arise on spot with Brawl, lol. We didn't even find out a lot of the smash 64 stuff until 2003, if memory serves me right.

 

[S0crat3s]

There were very few "perfect combos" in Melee, play the game and actually know what you are talking about next time. The creator of that thread is an idiot.

I started Melee a week after it came out, and played it until Brawl...What I mean is that without the hitstun, you need to position yourself for every attack, rather than only positioning for the combo setup...

The creator of that thread is an idiot? Well, I suppose he must be, because his views dissagree with yours, and God forbid, the almighty Gimpyfish, even though his reasoning was crystal-clear and his logic made good sense...But I suppose you, Gimpyfish, and everyone else that shares the same point of view are correct, that Brawl is terribly flawed because your opponent can actually get out of combos, and that everyone who doesn't agree is a scrub that never played Melee competitively, a competely different game with an unidentical physics engine...Everybody should snap their Brawl disks in half and go back to Melee, because offense and unescapable combos are everything in a competitive game...*snaps Brawl in half and goes off to play its obviously superior predecessor*

 

[mark.]

sad but true, i dont think this game is going too far.

 

[Mr.E]

While I hope you are right, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this is the case. We know Sakurai did everything in his power to remove anything that could make this game competitive, and the likeliness of him burying some crazy technique that the thousands of smashers who have already poured tons of hours into the game haven't found yet is pretty unlikely. This is just blind hope, and there's no evidence pointing to us finding anything game-breaking.

Well, just because something wasn't purposely implemented doesn't mean it isn't there. I doubt wavedashing was intended to be in Melee and I know Samus's SWD wasn't, but that doesn't make them any less significant. (Well okay, the SWD was functionally useless.) As long as it exists, it's irrelevant to whether or not it was intentionally added.

We're still are finding out new things about Brawl every day. Glide tossing? Grab-type tether recoveries grabbing the ledge on being sent flying? Character-specific techniques like Quick Attack Cancelling and Zap Jumping, Snakedashing which we recently found out a lot of characters can actually do? (What are we supposed to call it now, boost smashing or something?) The people who act like we've found all there is to find in the span of a couple months are insane. Yes, we're scouring Brawl a lot faster than we did starting out with Melee, but it's still going to take more than a month or two to find everything. It doesn't have to be 5-7 years like Melee, but give it at least a year or two before making such definitive statements as "Brawl will have backwards progression," "Brawl will never be as competitive as Melee," blah blah blah. Not only is it old by now, but crying about it so early in the game's lifespan just makes the "pros" look like they're butt-hurt they don't dominate as absolutely as they do in Melee.

Just play the god **** game. If you hate it that much, stop playing it competitively. If you must play, just enjoy yourself and stop worrying so much about breaking the game. The game will evolve with time. You're not at any competitive disadvantage if nobody else knows the next hidden trick either and new things will be found with time even if you're not actively looking for them, so why break your backs over it?

And no, the game isn't broken merely because it's less offensive.

 

[Erave]

So the game will be more about spacing, mindgames and playing defensively. What's wrong with that? I actually prefer that.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

So the game will be more about spacing, mindgames and playing defensively. What's wrong with that? I actually prefer that.

Because Melee requires spacing, mindgames, tech skill (most chars), AND combos.

The playing defensively thing is just a huge bore for me.

Well, just because something wasn't purposely implemented doesn't mean it isn't there. I doubt wavedashing was intended to be in Melee and I know Samus's SWD wasn't, but that doesn't make them any less significant. (Well okay, the SWD was functionally useless.) As long as it exists, it's irrelevant to whether or not it was intentionally added.

We're still are finding out new things about Brawl every day. Glide tossing? Grab-type tether recoveries grabbing the ledge on being sent flying? Character-specific techniques like Quick Attack Cancelling and Zap Jumping, Snakedashing which we recently found out a lot of characters can actually do? (What are we supposed to call it now, boost smashing or something?) The people who act like we've found all there is to find in the span of a couple months are insane. Yes, we're scouring Brawl a lot faster than we did starting out with Melee, but it's still going to take more than a month or two to find everything. It doesn't have to be 5-7 years like Melee, but give it at least a year or two before making such definitive statements as "Brawl will have backwards progression," "Brawl will never be as competitive as Melee," blah blah blah. Not only is it old by now, but crying about it so early in the game's lifespan just makes the "pros" look like they're butt-hurt they don't dominate as absolutely as they do in Melee.

Just play the god **** game. If you hate it that much, stop playing it competitively. If you must play, just enjoy yourself and stop worrying so much about breaking the game. The game will evolve with time. You're not at any competitive disadvantage if nobody else knows the next hidden trick either and new things will be found with time even if you're not actively looking for them, so why break your backs over it?

And no, the game isn't broken merely because it's less offensive.

One reason I'm so pessimistic about Brawl's technical/competitive future is because I 100% firmly believe that Sakurai tried to destroy the competitive scene on purpose.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Seems like mind gaming foes = new combos?

Scrub quote of the day month year.

 

[Zink]

I started Melee a week after it came out, and played it until Brawl...What I mean is that without the hitstun, you need to position yourself for every attack, rather than only positioning for the combo setup...

The creator of that thread is an idiot? Well, I suppose he must be, because his views dissagree with yours, and God forbid, the almighty Gimpyfish, even though his reasoning was crystal-clear and his logic made good sense...But I suppose you, Gimpyfish, and everyone else that shares the same point of view are correct, that Brawl is terribly flawed because your opponent can actually get out of combos, and that everyone who doesn't agree is a scrub that never played Melee competitively, a competely different game with an unidentical physics engine...Everybody should snap their Brawl disks in half and go back to Melee, because offense and unescapable combos are everything in a competitive game...*snaps Brawl in half and goes off to play its obviously superior predecessor*

if you honestly think inescapable combos are dumb you ae ignorant of the entire history and philosophy of fighting games.

 

[Lovage 805]

gimpy about summed it up when it comes to the progression of this game.

nothing can compensate for the miniscule amount of hitstun and shieldhitstun.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Boosting defensive options isn't a backwards progression.
This affirmation is more opinion based than fact.

All your defensive options works as offensive as well.
You can advance, for example, with spot dodges, air dodges, attacks with high priority, shield, grabs and power shields.

The lack of hitstun in some attacks leads to a more precise oriented gameplay.
To control the match, the player needs more attention in every move.
Brawl causes a exhaustive uses of player intelligence.

Not that Melee doesn't have it, but Melee also had techniques that helped the player to not get their minds exhausted. This is most because the techniques used to act like a barrier between good and bad players.
In Melee, players really need the use of techniques in order to play even or better than someone.
I'm not saying that Melee lacks in smart play, it just not purely focused on that.


All techniques have the purpose to make the gameplay easier.
Melee's gameplay at its start are harder as Brawl's now.
Isn't that Brawl is made easier for casual people, its made harder for everyone.
Even so, difficult level is irrelevant.
Techniques aren't really necessary for a competitive game.

Also Brawl have techniques, but this techniques doesn't make the gameplay easier than Melee.


I really thought that I was going to be more pessimistic about Brawl with my flashier gamestyle in Melee than the Melee's pros in US.
Well I guessed wrong.

I also have a message: showing pessimism will not make Brawl "better".
Its easier make more people sad about the game, making the scene being worse.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I don't care about making Brawl better. I don't like the game. If I can make people sad about the game, that's awesome, because then maybe there will still be Melee tournaments. Otherwise I'm through with Smash.

 

[RDK]

And what makes you think Brawl is a water-downed Melee in the long run? It is...offensively. But defensively, it's got a lot of depth. The problem is, we haven't translated the defensive depth to further the offensive depth. And on top of that, we haven't found all the techs. Like this new Pikachu quick attack cancel, that increases speed and crap. Stuff like that, I think, is suppose to be what offense is supported off. The offense meta-game will probably be supported and will live off advanced (offensive) techniques. We gotta dig more, and find more. This Quick Attack cancel was only a few pieces of gold. We haven't found anywhere near the whole pot of gold yet.

Depth = needs more time. Even amongst Street Fighter sequals, they were given negative reaction by their fans, and their "new gameplay" and depth was found IN TIME, not immediately. The game hasn't even been out three months in Japan. We STILL found Melee techs were generally found in 2006 and early 2007. WOAW! Not everything is going to arise on spot with Brawl, lol. We didn't even find out a lot of the smash 64 stuff until 2003, if memory serves me right.

I definetely don't agree with this.

Yes, Brawl has a lot of defensive options, and the emphasis is POURED on defensive camping, moreso in Melee. But it definetely doesn't have more defensive options--just a few overly-abused ones that work really well (Pit's arrows, anyone?).

And once again, cries of "Give the game more time" are useless and, to an extent, naive. Ask any Melee veteran who's played Smash for any good amount of time. Brawl's a technical dead end. We've had our top players on it since release--there's simply nothing there worth doing.

It's like trying to dig a well where there's no floor.

 

[YellowSnowDemon]

I wonder how the Japanese competitive scene is responding to Brawl. They seemed to play alot slower than the American crowd in melee. Maybe they're actually satisfied w/ it.

I don't think I could go back to melee, though. Snake is the sex.

 

[J0K3R]

I wonder how the Japanese competitive scene is responding to Brawl. They seemed to play alot slower than the American crowd in melee. Maybe they're actually satisfied w/ it.

I don't think I could go back to melee, though. Snake is the sex.

Agreed. Snake's playstyle is wildy arousing

 

[Adi]

I kinda wish Nintendo did just go with their original plan of making Melee with online capabilities and more characters lol.

 

[Zink]

ehhhh, kizzu, I don't really see how you can use defense as offense. What are you going to do, airdodge in and hope you hit the grab button sooner than your opponent? The new Brawl SOOPA SHIELD makes nearly all attacking approaches useless. not that it matters, because you can't punish anyway

 

[LavisFiend]

But LavisFiend, you clearly are dumb as dirt.

Lol, don't preach to me about intellect if you can't even spell Mississippi right

In all seriousness though, I don't want you blowin' up my planes. D=

 

[RDK]

I kinda wish Nintendo did just go with their original plan of making Melee with online capabilities and more characters lol.

Hell, I thought the same thing too after hearing Iwata say that if Sakurai wouldn't have supervised Brawl, Iwata would have just stuck online mode onto Melee and call it a day.

I honestly would have liked that better after seeing what a steaming pile of **** Brawl is. Stupid Sakurai. All had to do was not **** the Smash franchise--but no. He had to go and be Sakurai.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

I definetely don't agree with this.

Yes, Brawl has a lot of defensive options, and the emphasis is POURED on defensive camping, moreso in Melee. But it definetely doesn't have more defensive options--just a few overly-abused ones that work really well (Pit's arrows, anyone?).

And once again, cries of "Give the game more time" are useless and, to an extent, naive. Ask any Melee veteran who's played Smash for any good amount of time. Brawl's a technical dead end. We've had our top players on it since release--there's simply nothing there worth doing.

It's like trying to dig a well where there's no floor.

Let me ask about Melee. I want to know how long it took for all different kinds of techniques were discovered once Melee came out.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I don't care about making Brawl better. I don't like the game. If I can make people sad about the game, that's awesome, because then maybe there will still be Melee tournaments. Otherwise I'm through with Smash.

Melee scene is Brawl's dependent just because its a new game.
If you don't like Brawl, just don't spread pessimism or this will affect Melee.

ehhhh, kizzu, I don't really see how you can use defense as offense. What are you going to do, airdodge in and hope you hit the grab button sooner than your opponent? The new Brawl SOOPA SHIELD makes nearly all attacking approaches useless. not that it matters, because you can't punish anyway

Actually all offensive option is defensive in a way.
The base of the game is to not lose stocks before your opponent.

I advance a lot with grabs, shields and spot dodges.
People are trying too much to approach from the air.
Better air combat doesn't means safer approaching from the air.

 

[LavisFiend]

@Rodriguezjr.:Dude, experience was gathered over a large amount of time for melee because noone knew wtf was going on.

Brawl is different in the sense that we now know what to look for, and they ain't finding stuff. =O

 

[Shai Hulud]

Lol, don't preach to me about intellect if you can't even spell Mississippi right

In all seriousness though, I don't want you blowin' up my planes. D=

Oh ****, thanks for pointing that out. What's this about planes? I'm confused.

 

[BlackPanther]

I really thought that I was going to be more pessimistic about Brawl with my flashier gamestyle in Melee than the Melee's pros in US.
Well I guessed wrong.

That was one thing that made Melee so cool because of the flashiness the only thing flashy about Brawl is it's graphics and that isn't sayin much. Your saying on defensive options bein good offensive options is kinda bad. Airdodging towards an opponent can get you killed if your opponent is in some fashion, smart. There's a reason to be pessemistic about the game, it's not goin anywhere. It's way to slow for my taste I don't care how strategic it is. You can play just as strategically in Melee but with Melee having more options to further the strategic game play. Playing all mindgames isn't necessarily always a good thing. If all you do is ****ing hover around the stage tryin to figure out what your're gonna do next instead of actually fighting, what kind of excitement does that bring? With everything taken out of Brawl that's how I feel about it.

 

[Zink]

Melee scene is Brawl's dependent just because its a new game.
If you don't like Brawl, just don't spread pessimism or this will affect Melee.



Actually all offensive option is defensive in a way.
The base of the game is to not lose stocks before your opponent.

I advance a lot with grabs, shields and spot dodges.
People are trying too much to approach from the air.
Better air combat doesn't means safer approaching from the air.

I'd always thought that a wrong way to think... I mean, if you play to remove opponent's stocks, all you need to do is get a lead and camp to win. Meanwhile, if you have defense as your main focus, you need to break out of your normal pattern to actually attack. If you play perfect defense, the best you can do is tie, because while you may be nearly unhittable, even 1% damage from a spammed projectile will be more than your damage output. If you attack, you compromise your defense and you aren't playing defensively anymore.

 

[RDK]

Let me ask about Melee. I want to know how long it took for all different kinds of techniques were discovered once Melee came out.

This is a naive argument. We have 7+ years of Smash experience going into Brawl. We didn't going into Melee.

 

[MookieRah]

Oh ****, thanks for pointing that out.

I noticed that before too, but I always thought it was more of a joke making fun of the ridiculous amount of S's in the name.

BTW, Overswarm ***** the smashboards tournament. He's the campiest guy on the planet with ROB. All the "defensive options for offense" stuff still doesn't eclipse camping. I've actually seen vids of Overswarm playing defensively-aggressive, yet when things get serious he turns back to mega camp mode. Camping is still the best brawl strategy, and so far none of the new little things we discovered come close to overturning that.

In all honesty, no matter what we discover I very very much doubt it could overturn shields being near instant, rolls being too good, and the lack of hit and shield stun. The likelihood of a glitch existing like that is so small that to expect that it will be discovered in the future would be naive. Basically what I'm saying is that even with all the little things we discover... it will still be a camp fest.

 

[Zink]

I noticed that before too, but I always thought it was more of a joke making fun of the ridiculous amount of S's in the name.

BTW, Overswarm ***** the smashboards tournament. He's the campiest guy on the planet with ROB. All the "defensive options for offense" stuff still doesn't eclipse camping. I've actually seen vids of Overswarm playing defensively-agressive, yet when things get serious he turns back to mega camp mode. Camping is still the best brawl strategy, and so far none of the new little things we discovered come close to overturning that.

QFT, look up the OS vs Jiano set. each match lasts longer than a Melee SET. And 95% of it is laser/gyro vs grenades. Sometimes OS will spotdodge->dsmash a lot in a row, and it works.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Mookie, it is. I'm just messing with LavisFiend for being ********. Also I think his comment about me blowing up planes suggests he thinks I'm an Arab and his racist belief that all Arabs are terrorists. In his defense "Shai Hulud" is in fact Arabic, but that hardly justifies the blatantly racist comment.

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

Yeah I got the game the day it came out. I don't even play it by myself anymore. I used to mess around on Melee when I was alone and my buds werent around, but I don't do that on brawl. I played through subspace and was bored as hell... I just wanted to unlock the characters.

Also unlocking all of those challenges is a big chore and crappy. Seriously, I cannot play through classic mode without almost falling asleep.

This game is a step back, get used to it people.

 

[LavisFiend]

I noticed that before too, but I always thought it was more of a joke making fun of the ridiculous amount of S's in the name.

BTW, Overswarm ***** the smashboards tournament. He's the campiest guy on the planet with ROB. All the "defensive options for offense" stuff still doesn't eclipse camping. I've actually seen vids of Overswarm playing defensively-aggressive, yet when things get serious he turns back to mega camp mode. Camping is still the best brawl strategy, and so far none of the new little things we discovered come close to overturning that.

In all honesty, no matter what we discover I very very much doubt it could overturn shields being near instant, rolls being too good, and the lack of hit and shield stun. The likelihood of a glitch existing like that is so small that to expect that it will be discovered in the future would be naive. Basically what I'm saying is that even with all the little things we discover... it will still be a camp fest.

So what you are basically saying...

Is that R.O.B...won a tournament...?

....I am scared now. I really am.

@Shai: My internet popped off for a second, so my reply didn't go through.

Anyways, I didn't make the comment about blowin' up planes based off your arabic handle, I made the comment because down here in Mansfield Louisiana, we had a guy who lived in Mississippi who apparently piloted a seaplane into a bed and breakfast. The motive was that his father ran it, and there was bad blood between them or something.

I am surprised it didn't make general news, it was pretty funny. I think it was only covered by local news, still though, it made me laugh. XD

But yea, that is where the blowin' up planes comment came from. I didn't even really pay attention to your name.

 

[poorboy93]

lol in order to reduce camp fest tourneys, lets ban all the characters that camp there projectiles XD AAHAHAHAHAH