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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

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TrueRedemption

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Good, I'm glad it takes more skill to edgeguard effectively. If anything that means it gives more characters with crappy recoveries a chance to be decent without "lol 20% kill."
Unless your a tether heavy recovery, but hey they seemed to be balanced in other ways...

Oops, I said it, the balance word... I was careless let loose my opinion of something none of us can know yet ><

Bad News: Its gonna take a while still to even have an idea how balanced everything, or everyone, is in brawl.

Good News: I'm 99% confident it won't actually be decided in this specific thread, unless these guys keep up at it for a really long time, And manage to play the game while arguing something no one can even pretend to win yet.


-True
 

Thinkaman

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Nobody said it's not more important.

It is, however, much harder because of the limited game engine.
I'm gonna have to completely disagree there, although I may be getting caught up in semantics of what you define "harder" as.

No matter what you think about the rest of brawl's engine, from my time with it it seems obvious that edge guarding is much more dynamic. Maybe I'm used to it since I mained jiggs, but almost all edgeguarding now involves you jumping out to stop them. (Virtually any character can make it back from any distance if allowed.)

It is the fact that everyone has good recovery that makes this possible in the first place: that means the edgeguarder can be what a Melee mindset would consider very risky; he can get back to the stage as easily as the person he is trying to stop. More characters have meteors, wall-jumps, now wall-clings, and unique specials that aide in recovery. Up-Bs have been completely overhauled. The oddball footstool jump has turned everyone's second jump into what seems like a semi-spike or similar.

Thus far, edgeguarding is the thing I think Brawl has done best.
 

Gea

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Unless your a tether heavy recovery, but hey they seemed to be balanced in other ways...
Even Olimar seems to have it MUCH easier getting back than Doc ever did in Melee. He has alot of airtime to force them off of the ledge and can sweetspot from underneath stages. Doc's recovery could be ****ed by a small gust of wind.
 

ph00tbag

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Good, I'm glad it takes more skill to edgeguard effectively. If anything that means it gives more characters with crappy recoveries a chance to be decent without "lol 20% kill."
So horribly wrong. Characters with crappy recoveries are still very bad. Tether recoveries leave you with next to no options against characters who can get a third jump. Edgeguarding these characters is ridiculously easy, and they can only do so much about it. The only thing going for these characters is their power on the stage, and except for Olimar, that power is very minimal, especially against characters like Marth and Toon Link. Even Olimar has trouble against Marth.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Edgeguarding is really different. You can't just stand on the ledge and hti people away anymore. You actually have to get out there and chase them right out to the side. Only Lucas can afford to sit on the edge and spam an attack to keep people from recovering and even then it's not always the best option.
 

TrueRedemption

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Even Olimar seems to have it MUCH easier getting back than Doc ever did in Melee. He has alot of airtime to force them off of the ledge and can sweetspot from underneath stages. Doc's recovery could be ****ed by a small gust of wind.
Definitely agreed, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSePZe3KUnk should be enough evidence that its not gone, just different. Wait its a different game, and were still learning stuff... Anyway though, I think that it being accounted for at least in the easily gimped characters is suggesting a more balanced game, same as if it was harder all around. Were on the same side really =P But then again... in an argument no one can win yet... aren't we all on the side of "wasting time actually discussing it" compared to all those who are on the other side not posting anything "laughing at people wasting their time"? :psycho:


-True
 

Gea

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Definitely agreed, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSePZe3KUnk should be enough evidence that its not gone, just different. Wait its a different game, and were still learning stuff... Anyway though, I think that it being accounted for at least in the easily gimped characters is suggesting a more balanced game, same as if it was harder all around. Were on the same side really =P But then again... in an argument no one can win yet... aren't we all on the side of "wasting time actually discussing it" compared to all those who are on the other side not posting anything "laughing at people wasting their time"? :psycho:


-True
Agreed. I'm not arguing that some recoveries still aren't utter crap/can't get gimped, but if you don't realize even the worst recoveries of brawl are currently better than the worst of melee I suggest you go back and experience it.

Besides that at least all spikes are real spikes and not this "well Falco and Marth get real spikes while everyone else is screwed" type deal. Yes, some are still better than others but at least we've made progress.
 

blizzard138

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From all the videos I've watched it seems their is still tiers and of course Marth still owns... Ike is definitely up there also... Sonic being another one. I dont really mind any character EXCEPT Marth... his final smash is devastating his smashes are over the average and hes still fast and can combo rather well. **** MARTH :) kick him out for Roy! :p
 

DraginHikari

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@ Dogenzaka

Be quiet... your not really helping anyone with that blank perspective. The point of those ATs don't even apply to this topic to begin with since they aren't even in Brawl anyway.

As far as this issue is concerned, I'm more of the type to sit and see what happens. Being fairly non-competitive, the over balance has little effect for that end. As stated before, it looks better from the perspective many of us have only because it appears so. I could go on and on, but this perspective has be repeated a few time already.
 

OrlanduEX

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What's your proof that it's less balanced?

Oh right it's a new game. You don't have any.
Would you stop acting like Melee and Brawl can't be compared? Melee and Brawl share many fundamental similarities. This is an undeniable fact. There are things that we can learn about Brawl by comparing it to Melee. I just don't understand why everyone keeps using this "Brawl is not Melee 2.0" argument to suggest that no one knows anything about Brawl. The game hasn't changed THAT MUCH.
Also, we don't need to play the game for a frickin year to see that some characters will end up superior to others based on the sums of their individual capabilities. We are not so n00bish to Brawl as you suggest. We have 6 years of Melee experience to tell us what to look for in good characters. The things that made characters good in Melee such as good combos, good approach, good edge guarding, good recovery and the like still apply in Brawl.

I'm gonna have to completely disagree there, although I may be getting caught up in semantics of what you define "harder" as.......
.
I definitely see your logic here. You make a very good point about thisa particular aspect of the game.
 

Yuna

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I'm gonna have to completely disagree there, although I may be getting caught up in semantics of what you define "harder" as.

No matter what you think about the rest of brawl's engine, from my time with it it seems obvious that edge guarding is much more dynamic. Maybe I'm used to it since I mained jiggs, but almost all edgeguarding now involves you jumping out to stop them. (Virtually any character can make it back from any distance if allowed.)
What was changed/removed/added to make it easier? Can you name any?

Now let me name the many reasons why it's harder:
* People are floatier, hence, they're harder to hit so far off the stage they can never recover, especially if they DI.
* Because of said floatiness, they'll almost always recover high up, making it harder to whack them off stage with a fair or bair or whatever.
* More freeze frames = More reaction time to DI
* Changed DI system, easier to DI, Smash DI, ASDI, all kinds of DI!
* Floatiness system makes it really easy to get back to the stage, sometimes even without DI through simple air controling (no 3rd jump needed). Because you fall slower now, almost everyone can afford a Fair to make it safer to recover before Up B:ing if at all.
* Generally lowered knockback on most moves, at least horizontally. Harder to knock people off too far to recover, especially with Di and the new floatiness.
* Airdodging no longer leaves you unable to do anything after. Did someone just jump after you for an off-stage edgeguard? Time an airdodge, then counterattack/Up B!
* Pretty much every single Up B in the game from returning characters were buffed. The new Up Bs are pretty good as well. Easier to recover using Up B, obviously.

Can you name enough things to nullify these things? Edgeguarding is harder, off and on the stage. It's a fact. Nothing new was added to make it easier. A lot of things were added to make it harder.

It is the fact that everyone has good recovery that makes this possible in the first place: that means the edgeguarder can be what a Melee mindset would consider very risky; he can get back to the stage as easily as the person he is trying to stop. More characters have meteors, wall-jumps, now wall-clings, and unique specials that aide in recovery. Up-Bs have been completely overhauled. The oddball footstool jump has turned everyone's second jump into what seems like a semi-spike or similar.
You have to be above someone to footstol them. DI + floatiness = The recoverer will recover high. FS:es are also meteor smashes (which can be canceled, of course), not semi-spikes.
 

Replacement100

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Yuna, you make me laugh like a little schoolgirl. That's either a blessing or a curse - depends on how you roll... but, I can't help but to skim over your posts, cackling, and noticing that you keep on talking about how there's X people in X tier, etc.
So far, I haven't heard of a definitive tier list.
If you could just spare some of your divine thoughts to give me such a tier list - I would be really grateful.

And yeah, failure to do this is an insta-fail. You lose the argument.
Quite a sneaky ultimatum, ain't it? Sorry about that - but someone has to do it.
Every time someone asks you for your mystical tier list, you ignore it. Seems utterly pathetic to me.

---

Let me shed some game-design basics onto this thread - some may have already said this, but Diversity is the opposite of Balance.
That is to say, the more characters you have in a game, the more likely it is for the game to be imbalanced.
That's where my support for the 'Brawl < Melee" argument ends.
With that said, one must realise that, no matter how much versatility there is, with effort, balance issues can be overcome. There is more POTENTIAL for the game to be imbalanced, but this does not necessarily mean that it IS.

I'll let you wallow - make sure you address the tier list!! :)
 

MajinSweet

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Yuna, you make me laugh like a little schoolgirl. That's either a blessing or a curse - depends on how you roll... but, I can't help but to skim over your posts, cackling, and noticing that you keep on talking about how there's X people in X tier, etc.
So far, I haven't heard of a definitive tier list.
If you could just spare some of your divine thoughts to give me such a tier list - I would be really grateful.

And yeah, failure to do this is an insta-fail. You lose the argument.
Quite a sneaky ultimatum, ain't it? Sorry about that - but someone has to do it.
Every time someone asks you for your mystical tier list, you ignore it. Seems utterly pathetic to me.

---

Let me shed some game-design basics onto this thread - some may have already said this, but Diversity is the opposite of Balance.
That is to say, the more characters you have in a game, the more likely it is for the game to be imbalanced.
That's where my support for the 'Brawl < Melee" argument ends.
With that said, one must realise that, no matter how much versatility there is, with effort, balance issues can be overcome. There is more POTENTIAL for the game to be imbalanced, but this does not necessarily mean that it IS.

It is obvious that the developers have learned a little from Melee - evidence of this is the fact that Bowser is faster. So, you would assume that we have no characters that are alike to Bowser in Melee, without a redeeming feature. Bowser got a little more speed, where as DeDeDe got ranged attacks, etc.

I'll let you wallow - make sure you address the tier list!! :)
Only problem with this is, many people are finding Bowser to be much worse. Gimpy of all people went with MetaKnight in a Brawl tourney over Bowser.
 

Replacement100

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Only problem with this is, many people are finding Bowser to be much worse. Gimpy of all people went with MetaKnight in a Brawl tourney over Bowser.
You totally have me on that one >.<
Quick, what should I change it to? :p

Edit: Probably just best to take it out.
 

TrueRedemption

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I think thats probably a little of the issue here, people are arguing towards different, underdeveloped concepts of what a perfectly balanced game would be.

Is a balance game a game where every single character has an equal chance to beat every other character on any given stage? To do that you must minimize character identity. Consider Warcraft II any of you who know the game. Sure, it was pretty balanced, but it was because 95% of the "Human" buildings and units had the exact same stats / build time / speed / abilities as the Orc equivalients, the only differences coming to mind were in their caster's spells (which were comparable but different) and one upgrade difference on the archer/troll. Obviously its an extreme example, basically in attempted balance everything was a clone. Still, to achieve that type of balance in brawl, non matchup specific equal opportunity fights, there would have to be drastic cuts in speed difference, weight classes would have to become only a minor difference, everyone would need about the same grab range, each character would have to have the same number of potential ceiling KO moves as well as the same number of horizontal KO moves... You get my point, and I don't think any of you truly want that if you think about it.

Another alternative would be the Rock Paper Scissors mentality, where it is heavily match up specific. However that would require learning a larger number of characters, which would decrease your skill overall with any individual character. Not to mention we'd be playing with completely different blind pick rules. Sure, every character would have defined strengths, weaknesses, and draws. This is balanced in an interpretation, say Fox is great against 10 characters, terrible against 10 characters, even (which would be kinda like the last paragraph between even characters) against 14, and have 1 mirror match, obviously even as well. However this would mean theres only 2 types of games worth watching, where equal opponents picking blind achieved a "draw" scenario, and a good game followed. Recall though neither character would be quite as good with that character, as the game would strongly push being good with multiple, more than smash games so far. The other fun games to watch would be pros beating up scrubs against the balance of the game, but that would only be fun because of the upset, which is bad when a pro is upsetting a scrub, thats not representation of skill if the scrub is favored. We'd just be developing mind games of our blind picks. Rock paper scissors is a great game, full of mind games, but they are all played up until you choose your character, nothing happens after but taking score. In summary this option sucks too.

So now were at least narrowing down options, thinking what it means to be balanced, lets try a less extreme method. Balanced defined as nothing existing that knocks the game from the teetering off the peak of all our hopes for a game able to create a competative challenging arena where skill experience and innovation triumph. Imagine with me here 35 sided shape ( a pentatriacontagon if you will) platform balancing upon this point, on each side is a character, and for each strength weight is added, and for each weakness its taken off. This is what most, if not all of us are looking for in a balanced game. Interesting thing about physics though, is it doesn't have to be absolutely level to remain balanced, and even more interesting, the exact same amount of weight doesn't need to be added to each side to maintain balance either! No one side (character) can be too heavy, or it fall (assuming random positioning of each character side maintaining balance a high percentage of the time). It is still balanced, but not necessarily even across the board.

I challenge you to go one step further with me. Lets pretend that our pentatriacontagon is representative of not the entire game, but what about if it was a specific character and all the possible matchups? Now were talking, here we don't need to assume random character placement. If you have one side thats got all this weight it seems compared to the rest of the cast in the general game balancing platform analogy, it can be offset in this matchup analogy. Say on the other side of the board, you have a number of characters who are superb counters to the character in question. Sure, he may be quite strong (heavy) against 10 or 15 solid characters, but because his weaknesses are easily exploited by the characters across the platform from him, the platform remains balanced. Apply this to every character, as obviously none of the counter characters can also be very heavy weights against most the cast and without counters of their own, and you'll probably end up with this incredibly complex system of weights and counter weights that maintain and protect this so called "balance" thats created such a stir here.

So, thank you if you read all this, I'm sure many won't but I do appreciate those of you who do. More importantly though think about this when arguing whether or not a game is balanced. SSBM was teetering, none of us deny that, there were counters but raw potential was perhaps worth slightly too much, giving us the tier list we have now. If any of you can claim to know the details of every match up well enough to know that potential overcomes counters in Brawl, congrats, your either wrong or very VERY advanced at the game, and clearly you need no words from me. If not, I suggest you try exploring a little more, looking for advantages and disadvantages, finding character match ups that fall one way more often than another, on an even deeper level consider stage implications. Just because FD seems completely neutral doesn't mean it does not favor projectile characters. And for good measure heres a nail to ram through any projected pentatriacontagon platforms you've applied appropriate weights to, how will techs discovered/developed in the next few months affect the weights you've got laid right now?

This isn't just a bogus long too soon to tell post. Just something to think about. Define what a balanced game is, then tell us if you think Brawl is closer to level than Melee. Truth is in the end we'll be playing Brawl either way as long as it doesn't fall off our peak of competative expectations, but comparison isn't bad to see progress or a lack there of.


-True
 

Replacement100

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I think thats probably a little of the issue here, people are arguing towards different, underdeveloped concepts of what a perfectly balanced game would be.

---
---
---

This isn't just a bogus long too soon to tell post. Just something to think about. Define what a balanced game is, then tell us if you think Brawl is closer to level than Melee. Truth is in the end we'll be playing Brawl either way as long as it doesn't fall off our peak of competative expectations, but comparison isn't bad to see progress or a lack there of.


-True
You are now one of my favourite members on this board. Thank God for intellectual individuals like you.
However, it could be added that rather than outlining a specific character's strengths and weakness, a game designer could instead give even significance (both good and bad) to each attribute that affects a character.

For example, rather than only having one weight class as to keep the game balanced, light weight and heavy weight could have equal but opposite strengths and weaknesses.
For example, Heavyweights won't fly as far, but won't have as good recovery, where as lightweights are inversely proportional to this. By making the features of the attribute even, the attribute would be balanced, and thus there would be no problem with giving this attribute to a character.

Now, the basics of this feature, actually go without saying. In Melee, for example, hard-hitting characters were balanced by being slow - however, the developers failed to look further into the game, and find that speed outranked power in terms of affecting a character's usability.

You could further define the problem with Dualistic Factors. Take a character who has 100 points in power, but only one in speed (let us assume that this system is your basic stat system in an RPG, or something), now let us take a character with 100 points in speed, one in power. In theory (if this was a perfect system), the characters should be perfectly even. This is because the benefits and weaknesses gained from speed, are equal to those given by power.

Here's where the Dualistic Factors come in. Usually with these, it is better to have a mix of the factors - for example 100str/1spe would lose to 51str/50spe. It is generally better to have a reasonable score of both. Now, it is perfectly fine for the extremes to be beaten by the characters who are balanced (I can't imagine a system so balanced that this wouldn't happen), but the trick really is to balance the factors enough to make the range of possible balanced stats as wide as possible. For example, having 80str/20spe = 20str/80spe is better than only having 75str/25spe = 25str/75spe. It basically means that more stat combinations are viable.
(For further clarification: It should also be noted that 50/50 stats in this system shouldn't be the best stats - this system should not have a parabola-like shape. Every culminations of the stats inside the threshold should be equal)

Basically, what I'm saying is that if you balance the attributes of characters, the characters themselves will need little balancing. Take the game Guilty Gear - with a framework laid down for every character, the characters could be freely designed without regards to balance, as all had this framework which would support them - even if as a character, their comparisons to other characters were weak.

This does not result in COMPLETE balance, but it means that every character is viable to be a contender in a professional tournament (at least, a large portion of them would be), and assuming that there are no game-breaking glitches, would lead to a profitable and enjoyable game.
 

Bronze

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Yuna won't post a tier list, because it is very easy to ridicule, highly likely to be inaccurate and so on. However, I guess the point is that there will always be a tier list structure, normally with that few top, bunch of quite goods, bunch of average, few rubbish type format. This will be the case in Brawl, as in Melee because certain characters can simply do important things better than others (like that whole combo, kill, approach list). However, its pretty obvious that no-one can say yet, beyond some guesses, for top and bottom who and how many characters are going to be where. So you can't say if Brawl will be more or less balanced than Melee until there is an accurate tier list, which as said, can't yet exist. This of course doesn't stop Yuna from challenging those who say Brawl is more balanced for exactly the same reasons, as essentially 'feeling' is all anyone is going on.

Even then there's how your even going to measure balance, in absolute terms (Brawl has more viable characters), relatively (Brawl has a lower % of viable characters), based on results or what.

Azen won a tournament with Ike. Who were some of his opponents? Mew2King and Chillindude. Had they played before? Yes, they both had quite a bit. What characters? M2K Marth and D3, chillin Zsuitsamus. Now tbh, the current best melee player (skill being transferable), playing as his main, who is still widely aknowledged as being one of, if not the best, characters in the game, got 3-0'd by Azen's Ike. Does this mean Ike is top tier? That Marth isn't top tier? That Azen is much better than M2K? It is not really possible to judge what things like this mean for balance, other than at this point no 1 character is destroying everyone. The theory that Olimar is going to be ****, is still just a theory, because atm there are no olimars ******.
 

omiz144

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It's impossible to balance characters with different movesets. If all characters were PERFECTLY balanced, they would have the same speed, knockback, everything.

I guess you could substitute power for speed and things like that, but they wouldn't come out balanced. It is true about all fighting games. Show me a fighting game with all equally balanced characters, and I'll take my opinion back.
 

Kirio

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Snake
Dedede
Marth
Lucas
Diddy
Toon Link
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Pit
MetaKnight (Gimpy just won with him somewhere, I believe)

I think all of these are definitely going to win a tourney at some point or another. But besides these, there are bunch of rogue others that people will pick up and play and get good at and win a few tournaments at. As of right now it's looking much better than Melee (Marth, Sheik, Fox, Falco)
 

TrueRedemption

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@ Replacement and all the readers of our discussion:

That is all fair logic and balancing, and it would certainly provide a balanced skeleton for each character. Your certainly right there are a lot of simple balances we overlook because they seem intuitive.

I suppose the biggest trouble would be arriving at balanced move sets however, I can't quite imagine an interesting deep game where each move followed that balancing system, as each character would be quite limited to the type of moves they could be given. Each would need to be relatively near the same multi factor (i imagine it'd need more than just speed and power, though did enjoy your 2 factor example). So we have a 50/50/50/50... 99/1/99/1... and everything in between. Each character would have their own feel, but it would be overemphasized, as literally every move would be limited to their defining factors, the only real difference would be in if it was hitting high low middle air back or whatever. I'm sure at this point your probably bursting about me missing the point its not by character, just see this out a second promise I get there. If it could in fact be balanced, this method certainly starts down a very viable path for achieving balance and variety, a noble accomplishment. However, as every move would have so near the exact same feel, I believe it would become too balanced. The lack of diversity of move types would kill all but the most basic level strategy, simply because options would be limited to the defining multi factor identity. There would be no difference in a Fair -> Fair -> Fair combo than there would be a Dtilt -> Utilt -> Uair combo, if those combos were even possible due to some of the factors. This lack of difference in results would then strip away most of the layers and options the game has now. With less options, there is less a player needs to learn how to do or how to respond to, apart from the different overall types of character. To learn with different types of characters would not involve different combos or moves, only different approaches and spacing. This game while balanced, would not last, as it has removed most of the potential for creativity and innovation.

However, If you did not assign these stat combinations by character, but instead by move, you would end up fairly close to our current understanding of Brawl right now I believe. Each character has moves that are X fast, Y strong damage wise, with Z knock back power, a range of A, IASA frames at B... Basically it'd be possible to quantify all of that and come up with a score for each move, obviously stressing certain aspects of it as you mentioned (that speed is more valuable than strength etc...). The problem with attempting to balance a game this way however is soon apparent. There is no rule or reason one must use every move, or even use more than one or two moves. If you have a heavy character with good recovery that is balanced by only having one quick move, whats to stop the repeated use of that one quick move, thus destroying that intended balance? Its easy to argue that well opponents will learn how to avoid/counter that one quick move. That however leads us to the next problem, now that character has all slow moves and one fast, but known and counterable move. Next thing you know hes bottom tier and unplayable. Not because he's not "balanced" equal to the rest, but because it won't add up when players can bend and shift their characters balance by choosing certain moves. I do believe this is probably near a system intentionally or unintentionally created in the Super Smash Brothers series. You can see how its turned out, not at all badly, just not cleanly either. Attempting to balance 3 tilts, 3 smashes, a jab, 5 aerials, a grab w/ 4 throws, and three special moves all with different factors, yet giving characters unchanging characteristics such as run speed, weight class, and jump ability will never work, because some characteristics are controlled, but attack factors are variable. With that system there will always emerge a hierarchy based on who can have the widest array of usable moves (options) without sacrificing too much on the character properties.


So what does that leave designers hoping for the perfect game? The same option thats been around since the beginning. The designers must know their game absolutely through the entire process. That means the SSBM team would have needed to know the game prior to its release as well as we know it now, wavedashing l-canceling chain grabbing shine spiking smash di all of what has been discovered. Is it possible with how advanced games and systems are now? Maybe, but the one thing that may be most overlooked would be the use of a large, very skilled group of testers for a long period of time, something thats hard if not impossible to have while producing a game on a schedule. To be honest, the lack of advanced techs found so far in Brawl suggest more than anything I've seen that the game is balanced. It makes it all the more likely that what is being played right now is close to what the creators knew and balanced while making the game. When we start pushing the game past the knowledge of the creators, thats when imbalances will become more apparent, but its the nature of a competative game. Personally I'd sacrifice some of the seemingly great balancing I see in brawl videos for the ability to combo like before, but what would be best is if Sakurai does know this game to its core, it includes combos and options like melee that we haven't discovered how to do yet, and was still balanced at that point to the best ability the team could have made it. Not likely, but its the ideal. Imagine if one day the dojo update actually revolutionized the game the way L-canceling did. That is the day we'd all know we were playing the game of a true master of the game designing world.

Back to reality though, I'll offer a compromise. Give me tiers, even now this early. I won't believe them and truly expect things will be different in months to come, but a lack of balance in a way is less scary. If a game seemed so well balanced, all it would take is one oversight by the developers, one tech that would separate a character from the rest so badly that it would truly unbalance the game. Slight differences in tiers (because I don't believe its as drastic as Yuna claims) shows that were beyond normal balancing, but the game is playable and competative, with less chance of some sudden tech discovery wrecking everything. Just me being a realist I suppose, but thats why its only my opinion and doesn't have to be yours.


-True
 

I.T.P

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
874
Location
Hod Hasharon,Israel
I don't have the time to read all of this right now, but I'll put in my 2 cents anyway.

You're horribly wrong and misinformed\underexperienced, a good Peach can overcome marth pretty well, his starting Fairs can be airdodged, and peach's Dair, Fair, and Fsmash ouare all very good, and even though she was all around nerfed, she's still very good and playable against everyone, I'll show you peach vs marth vids of me and crystal and you'll see.

as of now, a lot of characters are very good in a lot of areas, some characters have problems in some areas, but are strong enough in others to get the job done, and I haven't seen any character that's unplayable, though yoshi is bad, but still playable. DK can actually stage gimp very easily and can be very good if played correctly.

IMO right now, I'd Say that toon link,PT,Pit,Olimar,DeDeDe,Marth,G&W,Luigi,Meta Knight,Diddy K,Zelda and Wolf are all good canidates for top tier,

while Kirby,Bowser,Link,Pikachu,Ness,R.O.B,Ike,ICs,Mario,Snake,Falco,Lucario,Wario,bowser and ZSS feel high tier

The rest except C.Falcon,Gannon and Yoshi feel mid-tierish.

those 3 feel low tier.

Practically everyone feels like they have a very good chance, if played correctly, and too many characters have Great abilities and combinations that make up for their lacks.

yes, marth is all around great, more so than everyone else, but he's not much better than anyone, he's just less flawed. he can still be beaten, depending on the character he can practically be mutalised.

I might've missed some characters in my opinion, that doesn't mean I don't like them, just watched them less
 

Eggm

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
5,178
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Neptune, NJ
Whoever ends up the top tiers in brawl, are going to **** the rest of the cast far harder than the top tiers did so in melee. Simply because the game is less deep, and those people playing the worse characters have less things to learn and be better at than the top tier players, its going to be harder for them to win with their chars from being the better player. Its hard for me to get my point across with words I suck with it, but hopefully I did.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Eggm I have to go take my last midterm now, but while I'm away would you mind supporting your reasoning that there are less options available to certain or all characters in Brawl than there were available in melee? If this is not the crux of your argument I appologize for not catching your point completely, but I do believe thats the point your trying to make, and am very interested in your reasoning behind it.


-True
 

Eggm

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
5,178
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Neptune, NJ
Its not obvious? There were way more techniques and options available to every character than in brawl. Lets look solely at wavedash for now. You could for one be better at WD outta shield against laggy attacks to grab. Or just movement, you could be better at faking your opponent into thinking your approaching using a combination of perfect Dash dancing/wding then when they react to you like side dodge or something you can get in and punish. Or be good at edge guarding using the WD past the ledge to instnat ariels. Theres tons of options that aren't in brawl that are useful for all characters, I could spend the whole day here explaining because melee is infinitively deeper than brawl right now. I hope new stuff is found in brawl tho, cause then it'd be less boring to me, and if it was that'd be great since that where the majority of the community is going to go regardless of the depth of the game, cause its new and fresh.

Edit, those little things are really important at higher level of play in melee, and being better at them does give you an advantage which a lower tier player could use. Theres tons more too, those were just off the top of my head real quick.

Edit : I also have no idea who's going to be the top top characters in brawl, I just think once everythings close to fully developed, the top chars in brawl are going to **** harder than the top chars ***** in melee. Another reason is because most of the techniques getting found are character specific rather than the whole cast specific. With the exception of that shield grab cancel thing. I've seen a ton of peach specific stuff from ninja link, and that bowser move, stuff like that. I think some characters will fine techniques like that and just will annihilate the rest of the cast once it develops further.
 

error_alt_delete

Smash Champion
Joined
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2,237
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R.M.B. were else?
this game is alot more balanced, so far I have seen, marth is beatable, all the characters are, but marth isnt as invincible as people want and the tourney scene will no longer be domminated by 3-4 charactrs alone. I love the direction this game has gone in, crawling to avoid short hopped arials, toadstool jumping for a taunt of sorts, and characters are balanced enough were we can use anyone we want, this isnt going to be the unbalanced game melee was THIS IS A DIFFERENT GAME!

tl:dr, this game is balanced enough to play as anyone competitivly.

and before you say I am a casual who doesnt know what he is talking about, I do play the game in the non tourney scene, but that doesnt mean I havnt played smash long enough to know just as much as half of those tourney goers.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
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oblivion~
I apologize in advance if I'm just repeating stuff or making no sense. I really don't want to read through all those pages now.

First off, this thread makes me scared that my worries might have been justified.

We all know Melee was TERRIBLY balanced. I don't know who on earth could think that the game could be anything close to fair when you have one character who is extremely fast, extremely strong and heavy, while another character is terribly slow, weak and light.
The only thing that gave people the illusion that there was some balance is the huge human factor. Smash gives you a whole lot of space to move around, trick your opponents, use strategies, and so on. Hence why it's technically possible that Gimpyfish can beat a good Fox player with Bowser in Melee.
It's like going up against a fully armored guy with a gun while you're armed with a spoon, but you can still theoretically win if you're skilled and smart enough to avoid his shots and stab him through the eye.

Brawl seems to me like it didn't bother trying to make the characters themselves balanced, so it just went ahead and increased the human factor by taking out advanced techniques and just generally slowing things down.
Then they made most characters relatively balanced. And gave a handful of them every god**** advantage in the game.
It's still the same crap as in Melee: Some characters were designed to be fun and unique while giving them just enough power to do the job, and some others were designed to actually be good.

As much as it pains me to say this, I think it could become a bleak reality that the game will be much more unbalanced than Melee on a higher level of play. The deciding factor might become recovery; you have Pit, Metaknight, Dedede, etc. with practically flawless recoveries, which gives them the ability to edgeguard anyone who doesn't have such a godly power. Anyone who doesn't have a broken recovery turns into a joke character at that point. Except for Marth, who won't feel the need to even get thrown off the edge in order to get edgeguarded, of course.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
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12,542
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NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
I dunno, my two cents is that a lot of formerly bottom tier and low tier characters got a lot better. My hopeful guess is that this is supposed to appeal to a larger fanbase than the current Melee competitive one.

I mean hey, Zelda, G&W, and Luigi are miles better. That makes me extremely happy.
 

Repryx

Smash Champion
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
2,853
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Skyrim
IMO Marth is gonna get his own Tier(lolz)....but Marth Aside I beleive the game is more balanced due to certain moves being nerfed as well as the Stale move Negation Knockback reduction.

However...Yuna its really too early to tell We Exploited certain things in melee and we are gonna expliot stuff in brawl its inevitable...

Also I beleive certain stages make it balanced (as far as counter picks in tourneys) I.E Pit on his own stage or Sonic on larger stages with less gaps...Once again IMO Marth works on all stages...Fair,Fair,FairBLAH

Also the fact that a bunch of ADV Techs arent in the game closes the gap in the player sense balancing the gamePLAY at this point (I use ADV Techs ALOT so dont think Im an advocate for people who cant)


The Difficulty in combos Definitly balances the "I hit you with this attack or grab now I will 0 to death you from said attack or grab"


The Airdodge post activity negates alot of dumb kills from one missing a tech as well as creates new strategies. Rather than having to know a bunch of button combos now you actually have to THINK.

Also The characters that cant combo are normally the ones that KO at retartedly low percents (Ike Bowser Dedede....ROB)

Many Characters can approach safely one way or another....I'll use Ike as an example...A Running Bair has good range...is pretty fast and can get you inside for a quick jab combo

When I set up certain matches (Barring Marth again) I Have a hard time. I.E. My Pit Vs. Olimar. My Pit gets pwned(and thats my main) YEt when I put Sonic or Ike up against Olimar I Have an easy time. Yet My Pit PWNs an Ike and my Falco PWNs a Sonic. Its not a Matter of Tiers now but its almost like the weapon triangle in Fire Emblem...Certain Characters have a harder time against other characters and Vice Versa....When I finally get the game Ill see if I can make you a chart maybe.



.


How many of those can do all the below:
* KO well
* Combo into KO moves well
* Combo well at all
* Rack up damage well (either with single moves or broken combos)
* Approach well

How many of those can do 4 or 3 of the above? How many can do 2? Just 1? You see, the balance is significantly less when you consider these facts. Edgeguarding has been gimped and recovering has received a major buff, so all of the above are vital now.

No longer can you easily knock someone off the stage and gimp them to death with edgeguarding.
What th-? I hope you arent saying that gimping people w. edgeguarding made Melee Balanced.....BTW Ill tell you how many of those people can do those 5 things....

All but Ike (He doesnt combo well) But really...does Ike need combos when he has the most knockback in the smash series?


The balance doesnt lie in character match-ups Yuna...Rather in Strengths...Weaknessess....Stage/terrain advantage and the player being forced to think!


Also normally Casual players see a move that kills once I.E Knee, Then they Spam said Move to K.O....not in Brawl though...a casual player wont figure this out until someone tells them.

Also Someone who plays brawl for a week will never beat one who is playing 4 a year....just not gonna happen Yuna I mean really...Teach someone to do all the same things I can do yet if they dont think and if they dont know their character... AND MINE....they are doomed.

Now If you have anymore qualms against brawl...please raise them I'll be happy to

A. Refute you or
B. Inform you of Brawls true nature



I know you may not call me reliable but I do go to MANY Tourneys (I Just came from Chu Dats house last week) So I consider myself Reliable
BTW Zelda conters Marth pretty well so Im convinced Marth may not be as good as I originally thought(Only played the game ALOT.....still need to sit with it tho)

IMO you are going to see the balance as months go by....

If my grammer seems screwy sorry Im in and out of windows cuz Im in school.

Eggm Never Hide Brawl @ Chus again!

-Ciao
 

Cisne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2006
Messages
181
When we start pushing the game past the knowledge of the creators, thats when imbalances will become more apparent, but its the nature of a competative game. Personally I'd sacrifice some of the seemingly great balancing I see in brawl videos for the ability to combo like before, but what would be best is if Sakurai does know this game to its core, it includes combos and options like melee that we haven't discovered how to do yet, and was still balanced at that point to the best ability the team could have made it. Not likely, but its the ideal. Imagine if one day the dojo update actually revolutionized the game the way L-canceling did. That is the day we'd all know we were playing the game of a true master of the game designing world.
I was about to post , but this part closed my mouth and it should close a lot more.
 

error_alt_delete

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,237
Location
R.M.B. were else?
in regards to repryx, that character trialngle thing, it's funny you should mention it, because me and a freind were talking about that a couple of days ago. I think you are right about this game as well, I realy cant add much more too it, you hit the nail on the head.
 

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
4,845
Location
Mountain View, CA
More chars makes the game even more difficult to balance , and if the developpers actually tried to balance the game , it may not be by our standards (combos,edgeguarding,approaching) they may have looked for simpler things/moves.

so if the game turns out to be less balanced than melee I wont be surprised
 

Hypnotoad

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
20
Location
New Jersey
First of all Yuna, i hope that you are wrong, i want a more balanced game so i have more of a chance of winning with my main, yoshi.

That being said i agree with you on some points and disagree with you on others. From the little bit i played a all the videos i watch i agree that marth and toon link are way ahead of all of the other characters. I dont think i have seen a video where toon link losses (unless its against another toon link). However besides those two and g-dorf, falcon, and yoshi (****it!) who are at the bottom, everyone else seems about even. but yea right now marth and toon link look too powerful and they might be winning almost every tourny but i hope not. we'll have to see how the game evolves
 

mugwhump

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
382
Well after playing for a month I for one think it's more balanced than melee. :bee:
 
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