Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Uchiharakiri]

I knew I failed when I engaged in argument this guy, but shooting down outright false and dumb arguments is too fun.
Also, I LOVE battling trolls on 4chan. Seeing their non-logic fall apart keeps me coming back. But you're right. There can be no victory in the face of stubborn idiocy.

Not using logic is one of our trademarks, we simply don't really care about being right in an argument so long as we get laughs out of it, even if we can or can't win it, which to my experience, most /b/tards are capable of winning said arguments.

 

[§leepy God]

Honestly, I can't say due for me playing it so many times. But I can say this, It's less characters that just plan suck like Pichu and such. I can't say more in this point.

 

[MajinSweet]

I'm honestly not sure which game will end up being more balanced, I could see it going either way at this point. Melee for starters wasn't very balanced, even when I first played the game, I didn't even know anything about competitive play or a meta-game but, I could still tell that Bowser was horrible and Shiek was godly. But, even with that huge gap between the top and the bottom there still seemed to be a near even playing field for the majority of characters. The more we played though, the more we realized that certain characters that we thought were well rounded and good (Mario) just didn't get kills as easily as others (Fox). Once people learned how to get quick gimp kills at practically no percent, characters that couldn't do this struggled at a high level of play. My point is, it took a while for us to learn certain crucial things that made characters good when we started playing.

Brawl will probably be no different, and its probably impossible to know exactly what "it" is. So lets use a little hypothetical here just for the sake of discussion. What if we learned meteor smashes were crucial to high level play because recoveries had been buffed so much. Characters, regardless of combo ability, speed and recovery that don't have a effective means of meteor smashes would suffer. So once we get past the basic stuff like, "This character can combo well" "This character has good recovery" "This character is fast" And we start to figure out exactly what wins matches at a high level of play, we won't really know what makes a character "good".

 

[Yuna]

Someone actually accused me of being a Scrub? Go figure.

Honestly, I can't say due for me playing it so many times. But I can say this, It's less characters that just plan suck like Pichu and such. I can't say more in this point.

Yes, less characters who plain suck is a very good thing.

But at what price? IMO, yes, there are less Pichu-level characters. Most characters can be used, though some are obviously worse than others. It's just that the majority are either Suckfests (though few) or Blahs (many).

And then we have the select few who are Great and the ever fewer who are just Amazing. It's not enough to simply be Good if there's Amazing in the mix.

 

[Xengri]

I just have to ask, seeing as we’re 10+ pages into this thread.

Who here, does not agree that it’s to early for anyone to say that Brawl is less/more balanced then Melee.

I mean, it just seems obvious to me that all we can do now is predict.
Anyone here actually think they know for a fact that Brawl is more/less balanced then Melee?

 

[BoG]

I enjoy the game King of Fighters, I'm by no means a pro, but I think what I have to add is valid.
King of Fighters has more characters then brawl. You know what? It's quite balanced for the numbers. Some of the best players I've seen don't necessarily use the 3 top tier characters. In fact, quite often, people have teams of characters from top down to middle tiers, and are really quite good at it. The balance isn't perfect, it never can be, and despite clear differences in how good a character is, most of them can still compete, and are used often.
Now, Sakurai doesn't have the experience in balancing they have at SNK, but he's spent enough time i'm sure he is in the ballpark. Unfortunately, in a few months there will be around 5 characters who will be completely useless, a few more fighting uphill battles, but as for the rest, I think we'll be seeing a greater variety win tournaments. Analyzing videos, the only characters I've seen that blow my mind are Wolf, Marth, and Luigi. The rest I just can't decide who has an advantage over who.
While it isn't perfect, at least more characters will be worth playing.

ALso, I must apologize for any errors in language, I'm just too lazy to go back and edit my post.

 

[naevorc]

The gap between The Good Characters and the Bad Characters is much larger now. Certain characters can combo, rack up damage and KO. Certain others can't do either very well. Certain chars can do two out of three, others only one of them.

Few characters can approach safely. Marth can do all of these things.

Lower ceilings will make vertical KO's even more important, especially with the new floatiness to screw up edgeguarding. Only a select few can KO well vertically.

Among other things...

Hm, to me it seems more as though only a certain few characters are MEANT to KO vertically as a strong point. From the abundant vids i've seen (no actual playing experience) it seems like characters are even more distinct or specialized from each other.

 

[Fletch]

Well, quite honestly, I don't play all that competitively accept amongst friends. However, I never said that there weren't such a thing as cheap. Cheap and cheating are two different things. People can be cheap and not cheating. That's all that I'm saying.

Perhaps if there were refs or specific guidelines to what is and isn't cheap, I'd be more inclined to be competitive. Spamming moves, is cheap after a certain point, but all together fair.

There are specific guidelines among the competitive scene (i.e. no items, stage bans, stock over time battles, and the banning of the aforementioned glitches).

 

[Yuna]

I just have to ask, seeing as we’re 10+ pages into this thread.

Who here, does not agree that it’s to early for anyone to say that Brawl is less/more balanced then Melee.

I mean, it just seems obvious to me that all we can do now is predict.
Anyone here actually think they know for a fact that Brawl is more/less balanced then Melee?

We don't know anything for sure. We can still believe certain things and discuss such thesises.

Hm, to me it seems more as though only a certain few characters are MEANT to KO vertically as a strong point. From the abundant vids i've seen (no actual playing experience) it seems like characters are even more distinct or specialized from each other.

Of course they were meant to KO vertically. Their moves were programmed for that purpose... which is pretty crummy now that it's easier than ever and still only a select few can do it.

 

[ronin_galiver]

That was an amazing post Yuna. KUDOS. KUDOS. KUDOS. I think I'd fake being gay in an anonymous forum for more of your opinion.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Lawl.

Guess you can't come to the realization that you made a baseless assumption.

Canceling the first few frames of a jump with an air dodge WAS PROGRAMMED INTO THE GAME TOO!!!!

Of course it was programmed into the game. All glitches are. If it's not programmed in the game, it's not in the game. =P

This discussion is going nowhere. Each side is just going to volley the ball to the opposite side of the court. No one is going to win.

Whatever, I have better things to do as of now.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yuna:

from what Deim said, his Fair doesn't have so much lag that it's unusable, but just enough that he can't safely approach with it and he won't be able to just combo a landing Fair into another Fair into another Fair.

Now it's interesting that you should bring up lucario and Toon Link. Of course, statistically Lucario will never be as flat out GOOD as Toon Link, but a Lucario Vs. Toon Link situation can have some interesting results: for starters, Lucario matches Toon Link in range and disjointed hitboxes. A good Lucario player will also be able to use his down B to get around Toon Link's close-range projectiles, especially the arrows or boomerang, and since Toon Link doesn't KO until over 100% most of the time, Lucario will be at least able to fight with a 1.4 modifier to his power most of the time against Toon Link. He's not stuck when it comes to projectiles either, as a whole lot of small aura spheres can be just as annoying as Toon Link's blitzkrieg of crap.

Having said that, Young Link can footstool jump off someone and immediately attack with Dair, negating shield and hitting for a very powerful unavoidable blow, but hey, Lucario can also do that.

Oh yes, and I forgot Diddy Kong. Diddy is also going to be a viable character for competitive play.

 

[Gea]

Wow. I really only have two things to say here:

1.Dogenzaka

To be so "anti-4chan" you sure do use quite a bit of their phrases and mindset, including "tourny***." You have yet to back up your own claims with any factual evidence despite Yuna doing so. Was L cancelling a glitch as well?

We're also aware that Brawl was attempted to have a gentler learning curve. But you act as if Melee had a Guilty Gear esque one. Casual players could and DID always pick up and play. You said it yourself, most of them didn't know about advanced techniques and it didn't seem to matter to them one bit. So why does it now? Online? I mean these people aren't going to compete... so that does leave online.

They can always play with their friends. Well, random play isn't going to be much for competition anyways, since of the layout. So your point is moot. No game is balanced so that a newbie can beat a veteran consistently. Even games of supposed "luck" have general rules of thumb and tricks to them, like paper scissors rock. Tic Tac Toe? Checkers?

Is chess unbalanced because a chess master is better than someone who is playing for the first time?

2. Yuna - wait till you sit down with the game. I can't really place how I feel either way about the balance right now, but Brawl is a game where you need to sit down and *feel* it before making any judgements.

Honestly since the game is more about crossups and spacing, I do think more characters are *currently* viable. We shall see.

 

[ronin_galiver]

There are specific guidelines among the competitive scene (i.e. no items, stage bans, stock over time battles, and the banning of the aforementioned glitches).

Well, yeah. ...I guess I'm biased because I love the utter chaos of items and stages and what-not. The fact that you can throw a capsule at the ground, hoping for a heart and getting big ol' explosion up your anus just really tickles my fancy.

Anywho. I've always thought that it would take more skill to fight someone with the surprises of items and such.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Of course they were meant to KO vertically. Their moves were programmed for that purpose... which is pretty crummy now that it's easier than ever and still only a select few can do it.

Well,theres a reason for everything,especially in a fighting game.We cant be 100% sure at this stage with the majority not having the game to "see for ourseleves"so to say.

 

[Xengri]

We don't know anything for sure. We can still believe certain things and discuss such thesises.

Ok, I just had to get that cleared up.
I'm all up for speculation but, as long as everyone understands that they can't use Brawl's balance as a argument for, or against Brawl.

None of this is facts, just supported predictions.

 

[Dogenzaka]

To be so "anti-4chan" you sure do use quite a bit of their phrases and mindset, including "tourny***." You have yet to back up your own claims with any factual evidence despite Yuna doing so. Was L cancelling a glitch as well?

Ask anybody at 4chan if I go there?
I come from KHInsider, that is where I got the phrase "tourneyfeg".

I never addressed L-Canceling, but I believe Wavedashing is, evidence including:
- It's out of Brawl. It wouldn't have been taken out if it was an intentional mechanic.
- It was never known about until players discovered it. (I think).
- It's not natural to "cancel frames/lag" in games.
- Melee didn't have much development time in my opinion, so there's a high possibility that lots of glitches were left in.

That's just evidence supporting my opinion. Take it or leave it

We're also aware that Brawl was attempted to have a gentler learning curve. But you act as if Melee had a Guilty Gear esque one. Casual players could and DID always pick up and play. You said it yourself, most of them didn't know about advanced techniques and it didn't seem to matter to them one bit. So why does it now? Online? I mean these people aren't going to compete... so that does leave online.

Casual players play online, by the way.
The fact is, it would become a big deal considering they would play with these "competitive" players now with the joining advantage of Wi-Fi. A casual player would never be at a tournament, so that problem wasn't so apparent. But now, with the internet, anyone can bump into anyone.

I believe wavedashing would ruin the game like snaking ruins Mario Kart DS.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Someone actually accused me of being a Scrub? Go figure.


Yes, less characters who plain suck is a very good thing.

But at what price? IMO, yes, there are less Pichu-level characters. Most characters can be used, though some are obviously worse than others. It's just that the majority are either Suckfests (though few) or Blahs (many).

And then we have the select few who are Great and the ever fewer who are just Amazing. It's not enough to simply be Good if there's Amazing in the mix.

Sorry to bump this old chestnut, but if I look at what you said here, think of it this way: what would you rather have, a match between a good character and an AMAZING character, or an AMAZING character vs. one that just plain sucks?

Even if a character is good, it means that they have some tools and tricks at their disposal that COULD, if used correctly, allow them to gain the upper hand in the match. They're at a disadvantage, but in order for the character to be called good, it must mean that there is a chance for them to win if they play their cards right. The AMAZING character just has more tools to work with.

If that character just plain sucks, there's not much of a chance of them winning at all and you may as well just go watch something else.

So really, I don't think this unbalance is going to be AS bad as you'd think. Certainly not on a Melee Bowser VS. Shiek level.

 

[Card]

Because I personally don't see how it's more balanced than Melee. But I'd gladly be proven wrong.

While I can't prove you wrong... I can perhaps shed some light on an area which maybe you can't quite see.

I'm one of the people who truly believes that Brawl is more balanced than Melee.

Now I don't have any tournament data, frame analysis, or actual evidence that I can use to back up my claims. What I do have is just my humble and honest opinion on the question at hand. So by the time you finish reading this post, neither of us are right, while at the same time neither of us are wrong. So to be blunt, you can outright just completely ignore my statement.

My reasoning for this is purely based of "feeling". Although when you think about it, basing an entire belief on something just based off of "feeling" is incredibly weak... but for some reason I cannot help but feel this way.

In my opinion, the Roster of Smash Brawl, feels to be much more balanced than the Roster of Smash Melee. That is to say, I feel that there is the opportunity for a larger cast of characters to win a tournament. That alone is enough for the game to be considered more balanced. Just make note that just because Smash Brawl is more balanced than Smash Melee, that doesn't make it Balanced period. There are still going to be Top Tiered characters which are going to place well in most tournaments, just like in Smash Melee. But what I find makes Smash Brawl much more balanced, is the fact that I feel that there are many more characters now which will be heavy competition for Top Tiered characters.

Let's face it, in Smash Melee a well played Marth/Fox/Falco player can seriously shrug off almost 3/4th's of the roster. To the point where it really isn't even a competition for them anymore, it's literally become a walk in the park for them. The reason I bring this up, is because I honestly do not think that the Top Tiered characters in Brawl will EVER have this predicament before them. We can all agree that so far Toon Link and Marth seem to be the top contenders for the best tiered characters. What I feel is that even though these two characters are by-far statistically better than most of the roster, they won't have an easy time versus a large portion of the Brawl roster. I feel (I really say this a lot, since like I said I cannot prove it) that even though Toon Link and Marth are better, they will NEVER get the opportunity to shrug off 3/4th's of the Roster like in Melee.

As it stands, we have many characters which show themselves to be incredibly solid characters. Lucas, Ike, King Dedede, Pit, MetaKnight, Pokemon Trainer, Falco, Wolf, Fox, Pikmin & Olimar, Lucario, Diddy Kong to name a few. Even though Marth and Toon Link have everything going for them, I sincerely doubt that they will consistently beat the above mentioned characters, without having tons of problems.

After all, didn't Azen win a tournament using Ike, and Gimpyfish with Metaknight? Obviously these tournament results mean next to nothing, but isn't it interesting to see how a character like Ike and Metaknight managed to win tournaments, even though they aren't heralded to be as godly as Toon Link and Marth? Isn't it interesting to see how even though it is blatantly obvious as to how powerful Toon Link and Marth are, that they aren't horrendously overplayed?


With all that said and done, I just feel that Brawl is going to be more balanced than Melee, I just feel that tournaments will not be dominated by the same 3-5 characters, and I just feel that the characters which will appear in the competitive scene will be much more diverse and dynamic than the competitive scene in Melee.


That's that.

 

[Calixto]

I would argue that it is still too early to tell how balanced the game is. However, I will say that it will probably take less time than it took to find out how the balancing in Melee worked; the smash community as a whole seems to be more analytical in their approach to game balance and gameplay strategies than it did in the days of Smash64.


On that note I think it is safe to say that the developers took some cues in balancing from the balancing issues in Melee. It seems apparent, by various nerfs to top tier characters and buffs to lower tier characters, that the Melee veteran characters will be in the same general tier of balance in comparison to one another. At the very least, it seems that this is what the developers were shooting for. Players did after all, have several years to determine what was what. (Except for, apparently, Marth)


It is these new characters that present the issue. These new characters have had quite little time to have been playtested and whatnot when compared to their Melee counterparts. Add along with that, a new mechanic (gliding) that only some of them have, and we can to a certain degree guess that if a new (true) top tier is to arise, its denizens will come from the new arrivals (and also Marth).

 

[Climax11]

We get it, you're from 4chan. Now go jack off at getting a rise out of somebody else.

Sorry I don't speak Forum Nerd. Whatsa 4chan?

Why does it matter if the game is more/less balanced. It's not the same game. Move on, or stay stuck. Brawl being around doesn't ruin the ability for melee lovers to play melee, and melee fan's putting down brawl really won't effect your ability to play the game if people on this site do something drastic...and figure out how they like the game all on there own.

 

[Gea]

Ask anybody at 4chan if I go there?
I come from KHInsider, that is where I got the phrase "tourneyfeg".

I never addressed L-Canceling, but I believe Wavedashing is, evidence including:
- It's out of Brawl. It wouldn't have been taken out if it was an intentional mechanic.

L-cancelling is out. So is mewtwo, roy, and pichu. Your point? You also can't aim your grapple at the side of the stage. Must have been a glitch. That is a logical fallacy, try again.

- It was never known about until players discovered it. (I think).

Not true. You don't think they debugged and tested airdodging immediately into the ground in development? You're crazy if you think they didn't. It was *known*, the uses were not.

- It's not natural to "cancel frames/lag" in games.

Can you tell me what frames get cancelled? Also L cancelling is another debunker, as well as other cancels in the game that are intentional (dash cancelled grabs, for example).

- Melee didn't have much development time in my opinion, so there's a high possibility that lots of glitches were left in.

Opinion, as you said it yourself. Also PAL version had tons of changes, but not that. Sorry.

Casual players play online, by the way.
The fact is, it would become a big deal considering they would play with these "competitive" players now with the joining advantage of Wi-Fi. A casual player would never be at a tournament, so that problem wasn't so apparent. But now, with the internet, anyone can bump into anyone.

I believe wavedashing would ruin the game like snaking ruins Mario Kart DS.

Except that I already brought this up. Free for alls with items are a much different and less cohesive playing experience than a 1v1 with advanced techs. While the better player will still *probably* win the free for all (with the skill gap being significant) it doesn't matter. All players can play as poorly as they want to *some* success as long as they have basic gameplay mechanics down.

Advanced techs still exist, by the way.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ask anybody at 4chan if I go there?
I come from KHInsider, that is where I got the phrase "tourneyfeg".

I never addressed L-Canceling, but I believe Wavedashing is, evidence including:
- It's out of Brawl. It wouldn't have been taken out if it was an intentional mechanic.
- It was never known about until players discovered it. (I think).
- It's not natural to "cancel frames/lag" in games.
- Melee didn't have much development time in my opinion, so there's a high possibility that lots of glitches were left in.

That's just evidence supporting my opinion. Take it or leave it

Lol, can you even hear yourself?

For starters, you're very wrong on most of these.

Wavedashing wasn't taken out of Brawl. You can still waveland, which means that the mechanic is still there. You just can't do it immediately because of the new air dodge. The "glitchy" part is still unchanged.

Also, it is VERY NATURAL to cancel frames/lag in games!! Especially in fighting games! All good fighting games have some kind of cancel. Heck, Eternal Fighter Zero (which was a very good doujin game) allows you to totally cancel your entire attacking animation at the expense of a little bit of special. In Soul Calibur, you can cancel entire moves and in Melty Blood, you can cancel attacking animations with other attacks during the hitpause! Even Mario Galaxy had attack canceling in it if you did a spin attack and then jumped immediately.

As for Melee having lots of glitches, not one of those glitches was game-breaking with the possible exception of the Ice climbers glitch which was removed in the PAL version along with Link's boomerang jump. All other "glitches" like wavedashing were left in. Explain that, please.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sorry I don't speak Forum Nerd. Whatsa 4chan?

Why does it matter if the game is more/less balanced. It's not the same game. Move on, or stay stuck. Brawl being around doesn't ruin the ability for melee lovers to play melee, and melee fan's putting down brawl really won't effect your ability to play the game if people on this site do something drastic...and figure out how they like the game all on there own.

It doesn't matter if it's Brawl or Melee or Super Hello Kitty Punch Out Ninjitsu Picnic, if a game with competitive elements is not balanced, that's a design flaw.

And it's best you don't know about 4chan. No, seriously, I mean it.

 

[DRaGZ]

Wow, every time I move to a different page on this topic, it grows by one...I've finally caught up.

 

[Xengri]

Ask anybody at 4chan if I go there?
I come from KHInsider, that is where I got the phrase "tourneyfeg".

I never addressed L-Canceling, but I believe Wavedashing is, evidence including:
- It's out of Brawl. It wouldn't have been taken out if it was an intentional mechanic.
- It was never known about until players discovered it. (I think).
- It's not natural to "cancel frames/lag" in games.
- Melee didn't have much development time in my opinion, so there's a high possibility that lots of glitches were left in.

That's just evidence supporting my opinion. Take it or leave it

- It could have been taken out purposely or, as a conscience of the new air dodge mechanics. I’m going to side with the latter, yet it's impossible to prove for both sides so, this is a null point.
-It just wasn’t put in the manual. Same thing for L-canceling, (which you stated that you don't consider a glitch) and many other things.
-You do know that L-cancel means canceling lag. If canceling lag is unnatural then, L-cancel must be unnatural also. And, canceling lag is present in many fighters.
- High possibility nothing. You don't know how they used their time and resources. Maybe the only thing they didn't get down was a few extra stages and, characters. Maybe not, ether way you can't prove anything so, it's another null point.


But anyway, this is topic has nothing to do with what is/isn't a glitch. Not like it matters anyway.

 

[RDK]

What people need to remember is to not compare the characters in Brawl to the characters in Melee, but rather compare the characters in Brawl to each other. That's what really counts when looking at a possible tier list.

But again, we're WAY too early in the first stages of the metagame to be making these decisions.

 

[DRaGZ]

Well...I think a lot of people are under the impression that wave-dashing was an intentional gameplay mechanic. It simply exploits how the air-dodging mechanic works with the ground.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

What people need to remember is to not compare the characters in Brawl to the characters in Melee, but rather compare the characters in Brawl to each other. That's what really counts when looking at a possible tier list.

But again, we're WAY too early in the first stages of the metagame to be making these decisions.

But that's what we're doing...and so far, if you compare Marth to Captain Falcon in Brawl, you can see that one is meant to combo and CAN combo, while the other is meant to combo and CAN'T combo, which is kind of sad.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Guess you can't come to the realization that you made a baseless assumption.



Of course it was programmed into the game. All glitches are. If it's not programmed in the game, it's not in the game. =P

This discussion is going nowhere. Each side is just going to volley the ball to the opposite side of the court. No one is going to win.

Whatever, I have better things to do as of now.

Yea nice cop out, unreasonable one. You are arguing because you seem to think that because advanced techniques were not made clear by Sakurai or because they weren't intended or because they are "glitches" that they are wrong and unfair. Almost all the advanced techs WERE intended to work the way they do and wavedashing is just a combination of game elements that also work as they were intended.
None of these are glitches.
And you still haven't made it clear as to why what Sakurai intended has anything to do with how we should enjoy the game. As if you even know what Sakurai intended.

Basically, your argument here is based on utterly false information and thus is inherently not credible.

Your second point is that using advanced techs is unfair to players who don't use them. First of all, if I'm not using the techs on said players, what does it matter? Why do you care if I use advanced techs against others who also use them?
And even if I use advanced techs against people who don't (which most competitive players don't do because it's pointless), how am I being unfair by applying my greater knowledge of the game? I have already presented the table tennis analogy which you have ignored in favor of walking away from the argument.

Your second point is partially founded on your first point (that advanced techs are glitches, not intended, etc.) which we've already proven a fallacy. Therefore, your second argument is not credible either.

You can walk away now and act like your logic makes sense at all, but you are wrong now and you will still be wrong.

 

[Mikezor]

Eternal Fighter Zero

Woah, someone else who knows of EFZ. Sorry, I have nothing else to say.

 

[Yuna]

2. Yuna - wait till you sit down with the game. I can't really place how I feel either way about the balance right now, but Brawl is a game where you need to sit down and *feel* it before making any judgements.

Honestly since the game is more about crossups and spacing, I do think more characters are *currently* viable. We shall see.

What makes you think I haven't sat down with the game (I have... as recently as yesterday)?

Sorry to bump this old chestnut, but if I look at what you said here, think of it this way: what would you rather have, a match between a good character and an AMAZING character, or an AMAZING character vs. one that just plain sucks?

Even if a character is good, it means that they have some tools and tricks at their disposal that COULD, if used correctly, allow them to gain the upper hand in the match. They're at a disadvantage, but in order for the character to be called good, it must mean that there is a chance for them to win if they play their cards right. The AMAZING character just has more tools to work with.

If that character just plain sucks, there's not much of a chance of them winning at all and you may as well just go watch something else.

So really, I don't think this unbalance is going to be AS bad as you'd think. Certainly not on a Melee Bowser VS. Shiek level.

You're misunderstanding me here.

There are less outright sucky characters. A lot of them just land in the Blah category. Then there's the Good Ones. And then there's the Amazing Ones. I feel like the gap between Amazing and the rest is just too darn big (bigger than in Melee). And so very few characters are Amazing while so many are blah-worthy.

 

[aho43]

i do. Brawl is more balanced in the following sense, there are fewer god awful characters(there are none), and the top characters aren't so much better than the rest of the characters that the average character has no chance vs the top tier character. also in the way the game is designed, short of dedede there aren't any chainthrows or super exploitable techniques that get you guaranteed damage except for certain wall combos, fyi none of the neutrals have walls cept Pokemon stadium 1, which im going to push to be removed from the neutral list. in brawl its just harder to get gimpy lame kills period, you can still get them, but its harder.

ive had the game for close to 3 weeks and all the characters have something going for them. compared to melee, its definitely more balanced in terms of how the characters compare to each other.

 

[Gea]

There are less outright sucky characters. A lot of them just land in the Blah category. Then there's the Good Ones. And then there's the Amazing Ones. I feel like the gap between Amazing and the rest is just too darn big (bigger than in Melee). And so very few characters are Amazing while so many are blah-worthy.

Just like Peach, Falco, and Jiggs were awesome when the game came ou- oh wait. Well maybe the Ice Clim- ****. Sheik is going to be unstoppable! Oh...

I do realize that we are more smash savy than then but still, Falco only really made headway long into Melee's existance. At first glace Jiggs seems pretty terrible in Melee as well, even when taking what knowledge you know about what makes a character good/bad.

Is it possible that currently any impressions over balance are far to thinly spread to be accurate? Super Smash Theory and whatnot.

And from what I've seen edgeguarding is *more* important in brawl, not less. Gimp kills are harder to achieve but still very much exist.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

I've often challenged statements of Brawl being more balanced. Not a single time have my arguments for Brawl being less balanced been refuted... often they are even ignored for whatever reason.

The reason for this would be, as I've noticed over the past few weeks lurking the instigating threads you've made every other day, is that you completely refuse to accept the arguments of others. You refuse to accept that your established opinion is wrong, and you will argue about it for 10 pages straight, until the thread dies. And then, in your mind, you declare "Victory!" and move on to another topic. You warp all opposing arguments, setting ridiculous boundaries and limitations and mitigating factors that every opposing argument has to meet, otherwise you'll simply disregard what they say for not meeting the standards you've established.

So, the conclusion here is that you are simply insatiable, and that's about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Forgive me Yuna, but who are the Amazing and Good characters again in your eyes? I completely agree with your logic, except that I don't think there are "Amazing" characters. (At least not yet.)

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

Ok, melee is way unbalanced....but i don't know brawl yet but from what i have seen seems to be more balanced!

 

[Yuna]

And from what I've seen edgeguarding is *more* important in brawl, not less. Gimp kills are harder to achieve but still very much exist.

Nobody said it's not more important.

It is, however, much harder because of the limited game engine.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

What's your proof that it's less balanced?

Oh right it's a new game. You don't have any.

 

[Gea]

Nobody said it's not more important.

It is, however, much harder because of the limited game engine.

Good, I'm glad it takes more skill to edgeguard effectively. If anything that means it gives more characters with crappy recoveries a chance to be decent without "lol 20% kill."