Brawl feels like the shallow rebound after a long, deep, and meaningful relationship

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Anyone know what I mean?

It seems like there's no heart. It's there, it's fun, it's pretty... but it's not the one you want to stay with forever. You stay with her cuz you know what you can get out of it.. it's the new thing, it's convenient, exciting and easy.

She's not the answer though. You already know who is deep down, you've always known. But sadly she has no online capabilities.

 

[GIGA-SkullKid]

lol great referance and i know what you mean but i havent playd it yet so this was a waist of a post

 

[Razorsaw]

"No heart" is the shallow kind of word that turns subjective arguments into manipulative, thinly designed hardcore whinging that doesn't even attempt to see the big picture beyond their narrow viewpoint.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

That's a bit harsh. Don't get me wrong, I like Brawl, it just doesn't have the same 'feel' to it. That 'feel' is what I describe as heart. It probably has something to do with depth.

Sorry for my personal opinions, I suppose I'm not entitled to them.



See Voltaire.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I don't really understand...its the same game basically, just a different engine. Hell, the average player probably can't even tell Brawl and Melee apart.

 

[Razorsaw]

I've seen the same basic argument before, and while I've been trying to come across as nuetral here, I won't dance around saying I loathe it. "It doesn't feel right" reduces all discussion to an extremely narrow viewpoint while at the same time, being vague enough to trick people into thinking you've actually been hurt.

It's right up there with "So and so ***** my childhood" and "no one appreciates this as much as I do."

 

[Brenco55]

lol an emo

 

[REDFIELD246]

I find it hilarious that all the Melee fanboys crying about Brawl use Fox avatars.

And please, don't bring Voltaire into this pointless thread. Your argument is "it doesn't have that feel", which is just as vague and ridiculous as someone talking about tiers a day after it came out. Sure, you're entitled to your opinions, but just make sure next time they're a little more grounded.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

It's his opinion people.

You can disagree with him, but flaming him for it is just sad.

 

[Lynkx]

I understand what you're trying to say and I'll take it into account when I buy it

 

[ComradeSAL]

Sorry for my personal opinions, I suppose I'm not entitled to them.



See Voltaire.

My opinion is that this thread sucks.

See Desperate Housewives.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I've tried intelligent discussion and all I get is flames. Here's a paste:

That just about sums up my thoughts. Now I know, everyone is gonna be like "well don't play if you don't like it." But seriously, I'm confused as to why nintendo chose to tear down the greatness they created and rebuild as opposed to building ON TOP OF IT and making it deeper, faster, and more complex.

Instead, they made it slower, took away character differences, and destroyed the ground game. Sure, there's more air options now with all the floatiness (like luigi in melee... you can get extra attacks in) and less hitlag means more frames of attack... but it also means less combos, less chasing, more defensive gameplay, more camping...

AND WHAT THE HELL IS WITH TRIPPING!?!?!??! WHAT A HORRIBLE IDEA!!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna play... But Melee is a much deeper game. I can feel Melee, so deep in myself... there's so much depth, so many options per second, sooo much speed, so much intensity..

Brawl just doesn't have that. It stays on the surface. There will be some more depth, sure, it's only been out for a little bit. BUT, it simply can't reach the depth of melee, due to the game mechanics. If you don't understand what I mean, you weren't that deeply involved in Melee. You can just tell. There's many many many less options per second.

Some people may understand and simply disagree, which is fine. But most people can't understand what we mean when we say we're disappointed with Brawl... it took a step back. I fully expected it to be much different than melee, certainly not "Melee 2". I just expected it to build upon the speed and intensity that had been previously established in the franchise.

Instead it's watered down. Fun, flashy, and new... but there's just not as much to it.
--------------------------------
And another:
--------------------------------

The fact of the matter is, here's smash:

Smash 64 = Smash 1.0
Melee = Smash 2.0
Brawl = Smash 3.0

1.0 to 2.0
Z cancelling became L cancelling, dash dancing stayed in, teching stayed in, they added wavedash (accident or not it added lots of depth), gave spikes to more characters, kept the intense edgegame, increased physics related differences between characters, game speed went through the roof, made it overall bigger and prettier.

2.0 to 3.0
took out cancelling altogether, took out wavedash due to new dodging/physics system (which is okay... BUT --->), took out dash dancing completely which really hurts the ground game, made characters randomly fall over, game speed is slowed almost to smash 64 levels, got rid of physics differences between characters, made everything floaty, made the effects of fastfalling much less, killed the edgegame, made the game overall bigger and prettier, put it online, made a decent 1 player game out of it.

There's certainly more but that's basically my view of it, a couple days later. Generally you expect some continuity from game to game, a BUILDING UPON the successes of the past. Not a systematic tearing apart of them. From 1.0 to 2.0, they built upon it. 2.0 to 3.0 is like a step backwards... as stated above, like making smash into a kid's game.

People like to spike over the edge... people like to dashdance, wavedash, shinespike, edgeguard, combo, crouch cancel... 'well we can't have any of that, my god!!! What about the poor noobs and novices!?!? We know everyone will buy the game no matter what we do, let's cater to the casual crowd.'

The casual crowd would buy the game and eat it up EVEN IF they kept all the depth. Just because some people are mindbogglingly good doesn't mean that people who are not so good can't enjoy the game. I loved melee before I knew about the advanced stuff, it was great fun.

I simply don't understand the elimination of such options.

And yes, I need to vent, and you need someone to hate. So flame away.
--------------------------------------

So there, now it's perfectly clear why I feel that Brawl has no heart. The deep rooted competitive aspects simply aren't there. There's very little chance that Brawl will reach that 'deeper level' within that addicts me to Melee, simply because of the way they've constructed it. Maybe I'll learn to get "in the Brawl zone" and it will get crazy like Melee, but I really don't think so.

So there's my arguments without subjective "feelings", and I suppose this thread will die now, because counterarguments will be "then go play melee" or "BRAWL PWNZORS!!! LOLZ!!!". Remember this is all just people's opinions, no need to get personal.

And Redfield, yes, I played fox in melee... fox and mewtwo. I love the technical depth required to play both of them. Is there something wrong with that? Do you really think it's funny? I'm all annoyed because I can't play at that greater level of depth. And this is my only outlet for my frustrations.

ROAR!!!

 

[WR3K]

this is a common feeling in shifting to new games under competitive views.

this happens with all games, such as going from 1.6 to source. or team fortress to teamfortress 2.

however FPS players have massive experience in paradigm shifts.

nintendo players... do not, so alot of them whine and cry.

 

[Doctor T]

I understand where you're coming from, and feel the same way about the game at times.

However, I know the game is still brand new, and that there are many things that have yet to be discovered about the game.

Brawl is very different than Melee, and not in just one or two ways. The entire style of play for many characters has completely shifted. So many things are different that it feels very foreign to us.

But Brawl has potential, no matter how many people say it doesn't. There are already some advanced techniques for different characters in the works that could make a huge impact on how the game is played in the future.

It looks to me that instead of crazy overall glitch techniques (wavedashing, L-canceling), in Brawl each character will have his/her own set of advanced techniques, that when abused will take the game to whole new levels.

So don't throw in the towel yet. Brawl has just begun its journey as a competitive game.

 

[pirkid]

It's his opinion people.

You can disagree with him, but flaming him for it is just sad.

It not that people aren't allowed their opinions, it's that some of them are so shallow and create no discussion whatsoever. They do not deserve a thread.

 

[ComradeSAL]

@BovineBlitzkrieg: You should have started the thread with that post instead of the bull**** analogy.

Anyways, now that we actually have something to discuss:

One clear logical fallacy I saw in your post is that more options per second = more depth. The human mind takes time to think things through completely; no one is going to try to argue that speed chess is a deeper game than regularly timed chess.

Yes, Brawl is slower than melee. It may even be shallower. But it is not shallower because it is slower.

 

[Razorsaw]

I've tried intelligent discussion and all I get is flames.

And the kind of fanboy whinging and manipulation certainly hasn't fared better. An intelligent post would at least not DESERVE the flames it gets. When you relate a game to a friend whose betrayed you, you're not being intelligent, you're manipulating people's feelings in an incredin;y shallow manner.

 

[SmashBro99]

I'll care about these kinds of threads when Brawl has been out for a decent amount of time.

 

[SirPenguin]

Anyone who says this is a complete and utter fool to make any longevity/deepness complaints about Brawl when it's less than a month old. Hell, we won't know the true depth until years from now.

I was around for the launch of Melee on various boards, and I remember so many people complaining that is was too fast and lacked combo potential of SSB64, and felt too much like a party game.

 

[Doctor T]

I was around for the launch of Melee on various boards, and I remember so many people complaining that is was too fast and lacked combo potential of SSB64, and felt too much like a party game.

Yes, so many people don't realize that there actually was a decent group of people that refused to play Melee quite some time because they thought Smash 64 was better. I was one of them.

So many of the complaints I see about Brawl are identical to some of the things I and others disliked about Melee back in the day. You people who are refusing to play Brawl... just wait. Here a couple years down the road you will be playing Brawl competitively with the rest of us.

 

[gnosis]

Brawl feels like what I suppose people always thought Smash was supposed to be. The competitive Melee scene had to overcome this idea that Smash was a shallow kiddy game, and prove that it had real depth.

Brawl feels like that shallow kiddy game everyone outside of the scene said Melee was.

Not that that game isn't fun. Especially teams :D

 

[Frames]

bovineblitzkrieg, i think you should really give Brawl a chance to grow and expand, I love melee and that game holds a special place for me, but Brawl is also special and given the opportunity, I think it could be something wonderful on its own.

Also, characters CAN dash-dance, it's not as easy as it was in melee, but just practice a little more!

As for wanting melee online, let me just say that Brawl online sucks, and if that's an indicator of how nintendo's online service will be, then i'm glad melee was never online.

 

[AznHalfCaucasian]

Sakurrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!

*TRIPS while typing this message*

 

[SilintNinjya]

this is a common feeling in shifting to new games under competitive views.

this happens with all games, such as going from 1.6 to source. or team fortress to teamfortress 2.

however FPS players have massive experience in paradigm shifts.

nintendo players... do not, so alot of them whine and cry.

TRUTH!!!

having personally gone through 1.6 to source, the smash community is doing the EXACT same thing. blah blah blah they took out all the skill blah blah blah. but given time, the new game will develop new tactics and new techniques that the previous game never had as a possibility. it will develop new strategies and new ideas. at first, everyone tries to play it like they did the previous game....but slowly, people begin to realize that playing the old way isnt how its meant to be played. its a new game and a new play style.

yes, it takes (lots of) time to fully move to the new game. its took CS a little over 2 years, i imagine smash will go faster.

i for one love brawl. there are so many things you COULDNT do in melee.

 

[tect]

i agree with many posts here. i feel as though people give the game more of a chance and explore new things and not play as thought brawl were melee, things will reveal themselves. this is very obvious to me

 

[All Eyez On E]

lol an emo

LOL, The same thing was going through my mind when I opened this thread.

SMH.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You guys made a lot of good points, thanks for your perspectives. Being the only smasher I know in my area, I have no other outlets so I had to get that frustration out somewhere, and see it mirrored back to understand it a little better.

It's true that my OP was a bit emotionally manipulative I suppose, and a bit emo, but I was just trying to describe the feeling. And comrade I like your chess analogy, that's a really good point. And the paradigm shift one was something to think about too.

I really appreciate the calm and logical responses most of you have made, it's much better than what I've seen in other threads where people vent their frustrations.

I'm just gonna try and be more patient and let the game be what it is.

 

[GreenKirby]

Surely you should play the game for more than ONE DAY before you make that claim.

My initial impression after one day was: THIS IZ THE GREATEST THING GOD EVER BESTOWED UPON WORLD SINCE JESUS CHRIST lol

Will I have that feeling three years from now? I don't know. It's reasons like yours and mine that makes judging based on first impressions is ********.

 

[WR3K]

for more info on gaming shifts, look at my thread here bovine:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151309

i respect your after thought response, alot of ranters never bother with follow up or any logical reasoning at all

 

[Doctor T]

I really appreciate the calm and logical responses most of you have made, it's much better than what I've seen in other threads where people vent their frustrations.

Spelling and Grammar helps, which is something you've got going for you. An intelligent post is much more likely to receive an intelligent response. Amazing how these things work, eh?

 

[Tin]

I think if you remain open minded, you'll find that this shallow rebound might be deep after all. Besides, it's time to move on after 6 years of long, deep, and meaningful relationship. It's over now.

 

[mark.]

aww qq qq qqq qqq qqqqq

if you like that deep, meaningful relationship, then just keep playing melee. everybody wins?