Brawl CPUs Learn?

[Excellence]

I've been hearing some people say Brawl CPUs can actually learn and pick up on habits. If anyone of you have played Star Ocean Till the End of Time, you might know how amazingly helpful that is. Can the CPUs really learn, or is this all just a misunderstanding?

 

[ExCeL 52]

No, they can't.

 

[Negi-Kun]

No.
/thread

 

[Firus]

They would have to have programmed some pretty intense CPUs to have ones that can pick up on your fighting style.

 

[Mr. Rogu]

i dont know, i mean i did fight a dk cpu the other day and he did the side B to B death combo on me that ive never seen a dk cpu do before.

 

[The Dinkoman]

It may seem to our brains that they are learning but there actually doing is repeating a programed file of moves and other responses. Its not learning its reacting to your fighting style in a way that can possibly beat you. Its all just codes, and files.

 

[lex.aut]

there are many people who say that the cpus learn. most of them see videos like the one below as the ultimate proof. however i never noticed anything. the cpus always react different to your attacks, and because of the huge random-factor they sometimes pull of combos or tricks that aren't typical for them. imo that's why so many people believe that their cpus imitate them, although they just know a lot more tricks than they did in melee and vary their attacks better.

here's one of the "proof"-videos.. most of you probably already know it.
http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=10268

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Sadly, no.

 

[13th Nightmare]

Someone I know did say that the CPUs copy whatever has been used in matches. But I have yet to see proof of that

 

[MrPorn]

Yes they do, one time I up+b to recover and then they suddenly started using up+B to recover too. I was like "WTF YOU COPY CATS!!!", after all these months the CPUs fight exactly like me, they be crampin my style!

 

[Lawz.]

no they're too stupid for any of that. only thing they're good at is power shielding

 

[Sosuke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXNQo71shCQ&feature=channel_page

I've posted this video so many times due to threads like this. <_<

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

CPU's are programed to adjust to your fighting style, but that's only because of the way they were made. They don't autonimously respond to your day to day routines, they just have files of what you Could do, and then they use a programed responce against it. Don't worry, CPU's aren't learning, or else we'd be in even more trouble of Robots TAKING OVER THE WORLD!

 

[Niiro]

no. they are computers. duh.

 

[POKE40]

I have heard that CPU do have a limited artificial intelligence, in a sense they learn, but not in the way we learn.

The cpus I've played learn to use a different move if the move they are using misses all the time... coincidence? I don't know.

But for sure, they don't learn. As I think...

 

[AvaricePanda]

No, they don't learn. They just have insane reaction time and powersheild a lot, lulz.

But they don't learn. I've played CPU Snakes for a ton of time, and they still suck and still do the same things in the same situations.

 

[XienZo]

Yes they do. Look at this VS battle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3feUSn3Kj4

Note the use of Reverse Falcon Punches to stage spike.

Now look at a CPU match from the same person:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHuIOnbZpvQ

Look at :32. I don't think they're normally programmed to do that.

 

[ExCeL 52]

C'mon man.. there set to do certain things... How can they learn...
Brawl Life as we know it would turn into some iRobot ****...

 

[XienZo]

Well, how would you explain all of the videos? Coincidence? I don't see the Falcon Punch as coincidence.

 

[KO M]

Well, In Star Ocean Till the End of time, they had advanced AI... they thought for themselves, the programmers of the game said that, and the game producer stated that they act of their own will.

 

[SCOTU]

No. I wrote up a pretty decent argument for why they don't:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=569180#p569180

 

[KO M]

That doesn't mean CPUs cant learn...

 

[SCOTU]

actually, unless i'm missing something subtle, it's strict logical proof that they don't.

 

[KO M]

actually, unless i'm missing something subtle, it's strict logical proof that they don't.

Yes, but Logical sense doesn't always solve things...
for example.

The ways of luck.. how can that be explained in a logical sense?

Im just saying if you are looking for a logical sense, then they could have advanced AI(That can think for themselves) Think of them as infants, they learn as they copy.

 

[Sosuke]

You know, Scotus theory makes the most sense to me.

Besides, honestly, why would Nintendo program AI thats was THAT good anyway?
They don't do smart stuff like that. ^_^

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

They made Smash Bros. Yes they do.

You know, SasukeBowser, your name fits you to a T.

 

[Cook]

The first time I played a CPU Fox as Link he shinespiked me as an edgeguard. I was all like "lolwut??????"

 

[SCOTU]

Yes, but Logical sense doesn't always solve things...
for example.

The ways of luck.. how can that be explained in a logical sense?

Im just saying if you are looking for a logical sense, then they could have advanced AI(That can think for themselves) Think of them as infants, they learn as they copy.

Actually, Luck can easily be analyzed logically. Both in probabilistic ways, and in the computer science way where "random" events like tripping can be reproduced precisely by just knowing a single number. In fact, one number will describe all of the "random" events in a given match of brawl.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Dude! I learned that in my Ap Statistics Class! HOLY CRAP IT'S IMPORTANT TO STAY AWAKE IN SCHOOL! STUFF LIKE THAT IS EVEN APPLIED TO VIDEO GAMES!

 

[wh1te5had0w]

That would be cool if the CPU was able to analyze your play style and go for your weak point ...... LV 9 CPU's are annoying to vs and they spam

 

[Napilopez]

Shoot, I had been quite a believer in the CPUs learn theory up until I read that argument of Scotu's. Very smart reasoning.

One of the reasons for which I believed it to be true is because it is something I noted with m own CPUs behavior. The day after I chaingrabbed a fox with my pikachu, I was chaingrabbed by a CPU pika while I was using fox. That is odd.

Suppose it was only a coinkidink though.

 

[Teran]

Why would you want them to get better?

Everyone knows Level 9 CPUs are unbeatable.

 

[Ange]

Its all a myth, which got rated as Busted by SCOTU.

Therefor, they do not learn.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

scotu explain why a cpu wud crouch tuant after ko-ing u ive seen it and theres utube vids if u dont blieve me ill find/post it

 

[Link_enfant]

Replay files are small, yeah, but even if CPU's inputs are not recorded, the fact that the CPU has learned or not can be recorded imo. The file would simply tell the CPU to use what he has learned, instead of letting him act like a regular CPU.

 

[trev94]

It may seem to our brains that they are learning but there actually doing is repeating a programed file of moves and other responses. Its not learning its reacting to your fighting style in a way that can possibly beat you. Its all just codes, and files.

i think this guys got it

 

[|RK|]

I figured that it was like, they have the data of what you do, and whenever the images line up to cause a mimicry of that previous situation, the computer is programmed to execute that situation. This may turn out differently because of a computer's inability to use Directional Influence, but, yeah...

EDIT: That and they do at least learn to deal with moves you spam, likein SM3 DS. If you attacked with the same move too many times, they'd block it.

 

[SmashX7]

hi! My first post. Had to do it!

 

[XienZo]

No. I wrote up a pretty decent argument for why they don't:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=569180#p569180

Yeah, its a pretty good argument, but the issue is that I'm not sure if you can pull "Absolutely no CPU data is recorded" from "replay size is fairly small" and "CPUs have been observed to use AI in real-time". See, just because CPUs use AI in the times where we recorded it doesn't mean they CAN'T pull actions from other sources, and "fairly small" is relative.

Many of these reported "learned" chains are quite short, such as "jump, Reverse Falcon Punch" and "dusk, stand, duck, stand, duck, stand". What if the replay data stores information like "at 1:23, stop CPU AI, input duck, stand, duck, stand, duck, stand, resume CPU AI"? Such info could easily be inserted while keeping the data size "fairly small". I don't believe any of those "trip" videos have any actions that resemble "learned" actions so we don't know what happens then (as of now).

From the points you have presented as of now, I don't think there's any that shows the above is impossible.

 

[Levitas]

Uh, it does. If the replay doesn't save all the stuff that the cpu had learned at that point, it can't learn.

The replay doesn't save inputs from the cpu (evidenced from trip code on vs trip code off stuff)

therefore, the cpu doing the same things in replays can only be explained by either the replay saving all the "experience" present, or by the cpu not learning.

Therefore, the cpu cannot learn.