Brawl CPUs Learn?

[pAce]

They copy what you do, I'm sure. I notice them doing things that I do all the time, although some flaws in their intelligence prevent them from doing everything you do. For example, I've seen a CPU dash dance but a Peach can't float higher than ground level (unless recovering). I'd be very surprised if something like dash dancing is actually programmed into the CPU by default.

 

[ice_cream_man]

I main diddy, and he is the easiest computer level 9. I three stock him but luigi i only beat half the time

 

[meta chaz]

cpu's arnt that well programmed or the wii would prolly just blow up cause it wouldnt be able to handle the game lol. although i have been suicide spiked by a cpu before and it really pissed me off XD

 

[9Kplus1]

They merely learn your button combinations and use them to their advantage. However, more complex combinations that usually include buffering frames (DAC, very long CGs, etc.) won't be memorized by the CPU. What does mean? Well, it means that CPUs are noobs that can combo you.

Try playing against a CPU and spam your FSmash, I can make a huge bet that if you pick that char as a CPU, they'll spam their FSmash. Now, do a 0-death combo on that exact CPU. Chances are that the CPU will never use that combo.

 

[ADMJP]

They merely learn your button combinations and use them to their advantage. However, more complex combinations that usually include buffering frames (DAC, very long CGs, etc.) won't be memorized by the CPU. What does mean? Well, it means that CPUs are noobs that can combo you.

Try playing against a CPU and spam your FSmash, I can make a huge bet that if you pick that char as a CPU, they'll spam their FSmash. Now, do a 0-death combo on that exact CPU. Chances are that the CPU will never use that combo.

I think that may be the only thing that makes people think cpu's learn.

Like, the other day, I was watching my friend play a cpu and he was getting jab cancelled fsmash/grabbed all over the place. But, then again, maybe they did that already to start with.

 

[bobert4936]

lol nah. that would be way to hard to program. and what ur saying is if u played a 99 stock match. they would be able to read almost all ur moves at like stock 50 lol. i can garuntee i can beat cpu at 99 stock easily.

 

[SuperNofriendo]

I definitely believe that to some extent, the cpus in brawl DO learn. Although I don't think it's nearly as good as a lot of people say it is.

For me Cpu's have crouched rapidly after killing me, which seems kind of weird to be programmed in, and have repeatedly shield rolled to one side of the stage after killing me, which I do quite often. But what furthers my belief in this is although it may be pure coincidence, I have never seen it happen on my friend's wii where I almost never do the previously stated things. However I'm not quite sure that it has the capabilities of reproducing chaingrabs or any advanced technique for that matter.

But again this is all based off of my personal experience.

 

[Meta77]

i doubt it but yesterday i was doing classic on intense and the metal soinc kicked me whenever i tried to get back on the stage and i sadly spammed side b with matrh. he eventually started blocking whenever i did it then spun across the ground and kicked me.

 

[~CPU~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXNQo71shCQ&feature=channel_page

I've posted this video so many times due to threads like this. <_<

lol i didnt belive this when i saw it

 

[PHiL Gee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXNQo71shCQ&feature=channel_page

I've posted this video so many times due to threads like this. <_<

They for sure learn...

 

[BOB SAGET!]

they can. i found a vid on youtube about it. Go on training mode, fight a level 9 thats the same character as the one your picking. set the cpu to attack and keep doing stuff like short hopping. eventually the cpu will gain the habit of short hopping.

 

[Lythium]

Originally posted in Brawl 1-Player forum:

It may seem to our brains that they are learning but what they are actually doing is repeating a programmed file of moves and other responses. They are not learning, they are reacting to your fighting style in a way that can possibly beat you. Its all just codes, and files. Therefore, they are not copying what you are doing, and they do not get smarter.

Seriously. Brawl CPUs do not learn.

 

[godofrock72]

I never play against CPU opponents. Unless I'm in a tournament, I don't play "competitively" (1 vs. 1, 4-stock, 8-minutes, Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville only). I am a fan of free-for-all. But when you do F4A against CPU's, they all gang up on you.

I doubt CPU's learn as they play , that sounds to much like TFU.

But I'm sure we could make CPU's at least play more like humans with Gecko OS codes.

 

[Deleted member]

they do learn, but not in the way peole learn. they copy random move combinations.

that isn't really learning, more just immitating. if you manage to perfectly glidetoss for 6 hours straight you will see the CPU glide toss eventually.

 

[SCOTU]

This thread is no longer being useful.

Saying things like "I've seen my CPU do _______ which I do all the time" doesn't help show that CPUs learn unless it's actually a behavior COMPLETELY unexpected from a CPU, it's not widely done by a bunch of people's CPUs, and your CPU can do it consistently.

In fact, It's already been proven that they don't learn, because Replays store neither CPU actions, nor "CPU learning data" that would be required to make replays work the same on two different Wiis if the CPUs behaved any differently on the two different Wiis (i.e. if they learned). This argument is sound.

 

[Hiiiiiii]

Is it normal if my Cpu Ike just couch cancelled a jab attack like 4 times for 23%? I've never done that with Ike more than once, and I did it really slow.. that Cpu did it so fluently.

 

[9Kplus1]

CPUs "learning" isn't really the case at all. From my experience, they just adapt to your playstyle and the process, they may use some of your combos and ATs. From what I've seen, CPUs act a lot like humans: If we see a player spamming a move, won't we try to get past it or just fight fire with fire? If you were to go up against a MK spamming his Nado, would you try to find some way around it or would you just spam your own Nado to get that MK to stop? What we do isn't really much different than what the CPUs do.

Here's somethng fun to do: Have a ditto match level 9 CPU and choose only one move use against that CPu and don't stop using it, chances are that the CPU will start using that move. An easy thing to do is wavedashin-...er, SHing aerials for a while. Eventually, the CPU will catch on and start SHing the exact same aerial. Now, if you were to SH that aerial into a combo several times, the CPU would (imo) make an attempt to try that combo only to fail at it (though, CPUs have no fear of messing up and will make you think that they planned a follow up for a failed combo).

 

[Cook Kirby]

This thread is no longer being useful.

Saying things like "I've seen my CPU do _______ which I do all the time" doesn't help show that CPUs learn unless it's actually a behavior COMPLETELY unexpected from a CPU, it's not widely done by a bunch of people's CPUs, and your CPU can do it consistently.

In fact, It's already been proven that they don't learn, because Replays store neither CPU actions, nor "CPU learning data" that would be required to make replays work the same on two different Wiis if the CPUs behaved any differently on the two different Wiis (i.e. if they learned). This argument is sound.

I have to agree. Odds are, most the things people see the computer doing which they seem to think it learned from them, are just normal strategies and technique employed by even the most basic brawlers. That also means that if CPU's could use your own techniques against you, then fighting a lvl 9 CPU using your techniques and with much better timing and reflexes would be impossible. It'd also mean that the better brawler you are, then the better the CPU is, leading to outlandishly impossible scenarios.

 

[Pazx]

NO learning...

Copying :D

 

[The Max is Back]

The CPUs can't learn there actions are all predetermined, meaning whatever they did was probably programmed for them to do.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

lol at people seeing things that aren't there.

 

[megajosh2]

Okay, I'm seeing people saying that the CPUs would only do what they were programmed to do. We saw a video of a CPU Link crouch taunting after a kill. THAT WOULD NOT BE PROGRAMMED INTO THE CPU.

 

[Kewkky]

Okay, I'm seeing people saying that the CPUs would only do what they were programmed to do. We saw a video of a CPU Link crouch taunting after a kill. THAT WOULD NOT BE PROGRAMMED INTO THE CPU.

Wavedashing wasn't part of Brawl's program, just a glitch people found that could benefit everyone in many ways.

Just because a program all of a sudden does something that it wasn't programmed to do, doesn't mean it was programmed to do it. If the CPU does it consistently, then I can agree that it IS part of his program. Otherwise, you just got lucky.

I've been in matches where it's me vs 3 CPUs, and I've seen the 3 CPUs do the exact same taunt at the same time, and the exact same move at the same time (I have a vid of 3 ganondorf CPUs usmashing me at the same time... their voices are funny), but it doesn't mean they were programmed to do it.

 

[SCOTU]

Okay, I'm seeing people saying that the CPUs would only do what they were programmed to do. We saw a video of a CPU Link crouch taunting after a kill. THAT WOULD NOT BE PROGRAMMED INTO THE CPU.

on what basis do you claim that this wouldn't be programmed in? Honestly, I can't see any reason it wouldn't. In fact, based on the huge volume of people reporting seeing their CPUs crouch taunt just in this thread trying to claim that it's something they learned, yet is consistent across so many different people's experiences, i'd have to argue that the crouch taunt is, in fact, programmed in.

 

[JUDGE]

there is no way that cpu can learn
if it's true than they must have a special program
don't belive this ****

 

[megajosh2]

WHY would they program the crouch taunt in? And you could say a lot of people have experienced it because a lot of people crouch taunt.

 

[megajosh2]

Wavedashing wasn't part of Brawl's program, just a glitch people found that could benefit everyone in many ways.

Just because a program all of a sudden does something that it wasn't programmed to do, doesn't mean it was programmed to do it. If the CPU does it consistently, then I can agree that it IS part of his program. Otherwise, you just got lucky.

I've been in matches where it's me vs 3 CPUs, and I've seen the 3 CPUs do the exact same taunt at the same time, and the exact same move at the same time (I have a vid of 3 ganondorf CPUs usmashing me at the same time... their voices are funny), but it doesn't mean they were programmed to do it.

Actually, the developers found out about the existence of wavedashing during beta testing, but decided to keep it in.

 

[GALE 14]

cpus doesnt learn technique or copy

 

[JUDGE]

WHY would they program the crouch taunt in? And you could say a lot of people have experienced it because a lot of people crouch taunt.

so do you really think cpu's can learn?????!!!!!

 

[megajosh2]

so do you really think cpu's can learn?????!!!!!

I don't know, but this leaves me from ruling out the possibility.

 

[Sieguest]

I don't believe cpus can learn...
take for example a wifi brawl -with anyone-basic brawl

for some reason you only get three players by the time the timer hits zero
the games decides to stick in a cpu for the fourth player....

We'll say that P1, P2, and P3 had some infatuation with falco and despite their playstyles manage a lot of k.o.s

P1-Rocks with falco and knows all the tricks and do dads and what not
P2- average...spams the laser and does fsmash in hopes that it will hit....
P3- the noob who picked up brawl yesterday and thinks falco's up b is the bomb...
Our cpu by chance is falco....
What happens when three different "learned" behaviors for falco conflict like this....it couldn't just mesh it together into one set....this is why I think cpus learning is not possible, but rather cpus taking the favorable response to similar, repeated, stimuli...which might give the illusion of learning...

 

[JigglyPunch]

One day. In a perfect world...

 

[mariofanpm12]

I hope the CPU made lotsa spaghetti!

On topic though, this is most likely a false assumption. The game would have to store massive amounts of additional memory and stream it at specific times, which in my opinion is beyond possible at this point in technology.

 

[T-block]

What happens when three different "learned" behaviors for falco conflict like this....it couldn't just mesh it together into one set....this is why I think cpus learning is not possible, but rather cpus taking the favorable response to similar, repeated, stimuli...which might give the illusion of learning...

It could "copy" the style that yielded the best results. I don't think anyone has seen how Brawl's AI is written. It's entirely possible the game just stores button input combinations from the player... that probably wouldn't take up too much space. The most convincing argument I've read is the one that involves replays.

 

[9Kplus1]

CPUs "learning" isn't really the case at all. From my experience, they just adapt to your playstyle and the process, they may use some of your combos and ATs. From what I've seen, CPUs act a lot like humans: If we see a player spamming a move, won't we try to get past it or just fight fire with fire? If you were to go up against a MK spamming his Nado, would you try to find some way around it or would you just spam your own Nado to get that MK to stop? What we do isn't really much different than what the CPUs do.

Here's somethng fun to do: Have a ditto match level 9 CPU and choose only one move use against that CPu and don't stop using it, chances are that the CPU will start using that move. An easy thing to do is wavedashin-...er, SHing aerials for a while. Eventually, the CPU will catch on and start SHing the exact same aerial. Now, if you were to SH that aerial into a combo several times, the CPU would (imo) make an attempt to try that combo only to fail at it (though, CPUs have no fear of messing up and will make you think that they planned a follow up for a failed combo).

Screw this post, I just bettered my own theory.

Though there is plenty of visual evidence that CPUs can learn, they don't. It's simple, if CPUs learn, why do they make the exact same mistakes? If CPUs learned, they would learn the timing on the moves that they learn from you as well... right?

It's much simpler to say that CPUs adapt to your playstyle in order to give you a better challenge. From what I've experienced, they merely string together button combinations that "counter" the button combinations of the char that has the best potential to win matches. This is just... a CPU showing off what it already knows.

 

[Elder Sister]

wow would be great

 

[Tacel]

It might seem like they do, but it's probably because they are programmed with the knowledge of what to do in different situations.