I haven't tested on the new patch but I remember last patch if you bowsercided close to the edge it's a sudden death. However if you bowsercide a bit further out, it was an SD.
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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion
- Thread starter Jerodak
- Start date
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Huh? You guys are right. If you grab somebody from the platform as opposed to the stage, they're released. Regardless of proximity to the stage itself.
I think we just flipped our research of this bug on its head. Stage-dependent, stage phase-dependent, and now stage platform-dependent? I think I need a nap.
What other possibilities have we missed? Air grabbing? Is it any platform, or just moving ones?
I think we just flipped our research of this bug on its head. Stage-dependent, stage phase-dependent, and now stage platform-dependent? I think I need a nap.
What other possibilities have we missed? Air grabbing? Is it any platform, or just moving ones?
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Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I have no idea about platforms/air grabbing, which is odd because I always go for command grabs on opponents when they're on platforms...like, 90% of the time. But, I never thought to take it to the second step and try to drive myself offstage with it.
I have a feeling air-to-air grabs may not cause us to die first. It's already hard enough to land something like that lmao. I could understand an air-to-ground grab maybe killing us first, though. It's a lot easier to grab someone with side b when you're coming down on them.
I think the only possibilities we need to consider aside from stage proximity and being on platforms, is maybe grabbing someone while they're on a ledge? This is extremely rare, but it is still possible. I mean when someone's ledge invincibility runs out. It is possible to grab them if they're just hanging there, right? I've never done it in this game, oddly enough lol
Concerning specific character locations, maybe air-to-ground like I mentioned before, air-to-air...we already know about ground-ground results. Maybe ground-to-air? Bowser can grab airborne characters in this game now. We would have to test each of those specific situations on different stages and character sizes also, unless character size/weight has already been debunked from the suicide theory.
I have a feeling air-to-air grabs may not cause us to die first. It's already hard enough to land something like that lmao. I could understand an air-to-ground grab maybe killing us first, though. It's a lot easier to grab someone with side b when you're coming down on them.
I think the only possibilities we need to consider aside from stage proximity and being on platforms, is maybe grabbing someone while they're on a ledge? This is extremely rare, but it is still possible. I mean when someone's ledge invincibility runs out. It is possible to grab them if they're just hanging there, right? I've never done it in this game, oddly enough lol
Concerning specific character locations, maybe air-to-ground like I mentioned before, air-to-air...we already know about ground-ground results. Maybe ground-to-air? Bowser can grab airborne characters in this game now. We would have to test each of those specific situations on different stages and character sizes also, unless character size/weight has already been debunked from the suicide theory.
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I bet you the answer to the bowsercide riddle is that after a fixed amount of distance (maybe total distance, maybe just the vertical vector) that bowser must travel through and then he immediately let's go of his opponent. If the opponent is let go in that time then Bowser SD's and they have an opportunity to get back to the stage. Certain stages likely have high enough blast zones relative to the stage that we never let go of the opponent, like smashville. However when we get on the platform the distance is increased and we SD.
I think another thing to study is to see if this distance increases/decreases/stays the same for aerial klaw. Considering aerial and grounded klaw have different frame data, it's possible that these release distances change as well.
I think the last thing would be to test if it's vertical vector distance or total distance. If we travel a super far distance horizontally with our flying slam does it increase the likelihood that an opponent will get out?
I think another thing to study is to see if this distance increases/decreases/stays the same for aerial klaw. Considering aerial and grounded klaw have different frame data, it's possible that these release distances change as well.
I think the last thing would be to test if it's vertical vector distance or total distance. If we travel a super far distance horizontally with our flying slam does it increase the likelihood that an opponent will get out?
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Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
There are way too many variables we have to consider. This is so annoying lol
but it's so so so sosososososososo important for someone/us to figure this out.
I'm not in the mood to turn my Wii U on right now, but tomorrow/Friday I will play around with it. Maybe Zapp/Jero may get to it before we do. The lab monsters have more homework now haha
but it's so so so sosososososososo important for someone/us to figure this out.
I'm not in the mood to turn my Wii U on right now, but tomorrow/Friday I will play around with it. Maybe Zapp/Jero may get to it before we do. The lab monsters have more homework now haha
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Went through the tourney legal stages to see if I could get abnormal results from grabbing a target on a platform. Nothing out of the ordinary like we just found with Smashville. Stages that kill Bowser first still did. Another stage with moving platforms is Town and City, and that always killed us first. Grabbing from the platforms on that did not alter the result.
For now I think we can safely assume our current results for the other stages are correct regardless of if you grabbed your opponent from the base of the stage or a platform. Air grabbing is trickier to have a verdict on, with how much space exists on a stage. I don't want to give in to paranoia and say air to air grabs MIGHT have a variance in results just because we found a new variable to consider.
I'll do my own rounds of testing whatever I can. This all started because of conflicting research on Smashville's Bowsercide verdict. Because somebody recorded something different we found this new information. So, the more eyes the better.
For now I think we can safely assume our current results for the other stages are correct regardless of if you grabbed your opponent from the base of the stage or a platform. Air grabbing is trickier to have a verdict on, with how much space exists on a stage. I don't want to give in to paranoia and say air to air grabs MIGHT have a variance in results just because we found a new variable to consider.
I'll do my own rounds of testing whatever I can. This all started because of conflicting research on Smashville's Bowsercide verdict. Because somebody recorded something different we found this new information. So, the more eyes the better.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
I can take a look, shouldn't be hard to test air grabs. Also, what about the two stock glitch?
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
WOW thanks, Sakurai!
I don't have too much time this week, but I'll see what I can do.
I don't have too much time this week, but I'll see what I can do.
a stray cat
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 56
Cursive and I tested the Bowsercide on SV out a little bit last night, and it looks like it's height based. The Bowsercide performs consistently depending on what height Bowser is at when he begins the upward phase of Flying Slam.
For example, if you doing a falling Flying Slam grab vs. an opponent at the ledge, and you slide off the stage and drop a little before Bowser jumps, Bowser will die first. But if you do a falling Flying Slam and stay on the stage it will always tie, just as any grounded Flying Slam will tie from the stage.
My guess on why this is the case is simply due to how games step position based on velocity per tick. At some heights, the steps work out such that both Bowser's hurtbox and the opponent's hurtbox end up in the blastzone. Other heights the final step ends up with just Bowser's hurtbox in the blastzone, so the opponent pops out. (As an aside, does the opponent pop-out like a grab release, or are they just suddenly released into falling neutral? I'll have to test that later when I get home.)
For a thorough test someone should go into the stage editor and just make a stage with a bunch of closely-stacked platforms, and just Bowsercide off each height.
For example, if you doing a falling Flying Slam grab vs. an opponent at the ledge, and you slide off the stage and drop a little before Bowser jumps, Bowser will die first. But if you do a falling Flying Slam and stay on the stage it will always tie, just as any grounded Flying Slam will tie from the stage.
My guess on why this is the case is simply due to how games step position based on velocity per tick. At some heights, the steps work out such that both Bowser's hurtbox and the opponent's hurtbox end up in the blastzone. Other heights the final step ends up with just Bowser's hurtbox in the blastzone, so the opponent pops out. (As an aside, does the opponent pop-out like a grab release, or are they just suddenly released into falling neutral? I'll have to test that later when I get home.)
For a thorough test someone should go into the stage editor and just make a stage with a bunch of closely-stacked platforms, and just Bowsercide off each height.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Falling neutral. The victim is capable of doing whatever they can in the air once released, including any recovery moves.
I have an issue with the height-based theory. All Omega form stages have the same boundaries. So if this were a height based factor, all omega forms would have one verdict, but they don't. About half kill Bowser first while the other half kill both characters.
However, there's definitely something up with Smashville when it comes to height. I've noticed other weirdness on Palutena's temple. Depending on whether you bowsercide from, sometimes it's an SD while usually this stage will kill Bowser first. It's a large stage, but it doesn't really change phases like Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege, so maybe there's a clue here.
a stray cat
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 56
Usually when we talk about stage boundaries, we mean the sides and top. Have people rigorously tested the omega floor boundaries?
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Looking at blast zone and stage research, it seems like nobody calculated if there was a different bottom boundary between omega forms. They did document three omega forms with higher ceiling boundaries. With the actual difference down to the very pixel. So any existing differences in the bottom boundary might be impossible to find without extremely sophisticated testing methods.
But shoot, now I see it. Final Destination is a stage that always kills both when grabbing a grounded opponent. But the verdict changed when I grabbed the opponent from the air. Both Air to ground grabs and air to air grabs had a chance to release the opponent. Though it wasn't consistent, this does support the height based theory. The question now is whether the verdict is decided by the height at which Bowser was when grabbing the victim, or how far he falls to reach the bottom blast zone. I'm gonna say the former, since grabbing an opponent from the air still takes Bowser down to the ground before he jumps up with his victim. Thus, the amount of distance he falls is the same, but the verdict isn't consistent when I tested it on FD.
Assuming it's based on what pixel of height that Bowser grabbed his opponent, then there's good news and bad news. The good news is that we can still look at tourney legal stages and say, if you grab the opponent with grounded flying slam on this stage or this platform, the verdict will be this. The bad news is that if you grab the opponent from the air at any point of height, then you're rolling the dice on whether Bowsercide kills Bowser first.
Edit: Or, I could be mulling this over while repeatedly Bowserciding from the ground and only now find instances where the victim is released randomly.
Bowserciding is bugged. The move refuses to be consistent. And now all our previous results are effectively inaccurate.
But shoot, now I see it. Final Destination is a stage that always kills both when grabbing a grounded opponent. But the verdict changed when I grabbed the opponent from the air. Both Air to ground grabs and air to air grabs had a chance to release the opponent. Though it wasn't consistent, this does support the height based theory. The question now is whether the verdict is decided by the height at which Bowser was when grabbing the victim, or how far he falls to reach the bottom blast zone. I'm gonna say the former, since grabbing an opponent from the air still takes Bowser down to the ground before he jumps up with his victim. Thus, the amount of distance he falls is the same, but the verdict isn't consistent when I tested it on FD.
Assuming it's based on what pixel of height that Bowser grabbed his opponent, then there's good news and bad news. The good news is that we can still look at tourney legal stages and say, if you grab the opponent with grounded flying slam on this stage or this platform, the verdict will be this. The bad news is that if you grab the opponent from the air at any point of height, then you're rolling the dice on whether Bowsercide kills Bowser first.
Edit: Or, I could be mulling this over while repeatedly Bowserciding from the ground and only now find instances where the victim is released randomly.
Bowserciding is bugged. The move refuses to be consistent. And now all our previous results are effectively inaccurate.
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Jerodak
Smash Lord
Hope it gets fixed soon! At this point I am actually wondering if they should just give us an auto-canceling melee klaw.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Man this game makes no sense.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
It will get sorted out, hopefully even in the next patch. In the meantime I guess save the bowsercides for stock lead situations against characters that cannot recover from it.
xReptar
Smash Rookie
I tested this a little bit yesterday with my brother.
On duck hunt if bowser grabbed falcon from the stage it would kill both. if bowser grabbed from the air, it would release falcon. if bowser grabbed from standing on the highest tree, it would still kill both. if bowser grabbed while falling but didnt hit the floor before the grab, it would release and then if bowser cancel grabbed while falling it would kill both.
so it seems like at least on duck hunt it just matters whether its a stage grab or air grab.
also side note: dont most tournaments rule in favor of the suicide initiator regardless of what they game says?
On duck hunt if bowser grabbed falcon from the stage it would kill both. if bowser grabbed from the air, it would release falcon. if bowser grabbed from standing on the highest tree, it would still kill both. if bowser grabbed while falling but didnt hit the floor before the grab, it would release and then if bowser cancel grabbed while falling it would kill both.
so it seems like at least on duck hunt it just matters whether its a stage grab or air grab.
also side note: dont most tournaments rule in favor of the suicide initiator regardless of what they game says?
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
When I was playing a set with JKT, Bum told me that the initiator wins regardless of whether he dies first or not; he asked quite a few people about that and they agreed, but I have no idea how tournaments handle it now.
people need to man up and make a suicide clause
either the player wins, or they don't win, as long as clarified, it's fine either way
either the player wins, or they don't win, as long as clarified, it's fine either way
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Depends on the scene. SoCal's ruling is Bowser only wins if it goes to sudden death.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
SoCal is doing the same thing now since Evo included Bowser in the suicide clause. We're getting there, guys!Turns out Paragon and the entire Norcal region is having the rule be that if Bowser ties OR loses while flying slam then bowser gets the win. I feel like we just won some important supreme court case. Thanks @Zigsta for starting the debate in the first place.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Hey guys, I found out something really cool with side-b. I already put information for it in the set-up thread, but I'll post here as well to make sure it gets known and properly tested. The gist of it is that default side b ca n combo into other moves under certain circumstances. In this instance, by having Bowser d.I onto a platform after launching the opponent. This cuts down your endlag substantially. I have not done extensive testing yet, but I have confirmed the following 0% combos in training.
R.O.B
Side-b -> up smash.
"" -> down b
"" -> Fair
Kirby
"" -> uptilt
"" -> nair
So far, I know this works on battlefield by using one of the lower two platforms then d.iing onto the top one, and on halberd's platform when you're not on the ship if you land on the edge of the slope then d.I over.
Hope this helps!
Edit: I'm currently looking into possible k.o setups from this. Right now I'm trying 60-70% set-ups on lylat. It looks promising, it seems like I'm only barely missing the timing for a true follow up. If it's possible at all then it's most likely frame perfect. However, R.O.B is floaty, so that might be the main issue. At best it seems like you get a k.o mix-up out of it instead of a guaranteed set-up.
R.O.B
Side-b -> up smash.
"" -> down b
"" -> Fair
Kirby
"" -> uptilt
"" -> nair
So far, I know this works on battlefield by using one of the lower two platforms then d.iing onto the top one, and on halberd's platform when you're not on the ship if you land on the edge of the slope then d.I over.
Hope this helps!
Edit: I'm currently looking into possible k.o setups from this. Right now I'm trying 60-70% set-ups on lylat. It looks promising, it seems like I'm only barely missing the timing for a true follow up. If it's possible at all then it's most likely frame perfect. However, R.O.B is floaty, so that might be the main issue. At best it seems like you get a k.o mix-up out of it instead of a guaranteed set-up.
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Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I've gotten Klaw>Bowser Bomb on a handful of characters (and I almost always get it at least once per tournament), but I don't remember which characters offhand I've pulled it off on. I know for sure, though, that it's possible on Samus at 0%.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
I hate to complicate the matter further, but it seems like bowser can die first even on smashville? http://gfycat.com/NegligibleForkedAfricanhornbill
The Sit King
Smash Rookie
Every so often when I preform the down aerial as Bowser it will drop slower than it normally would and allow you to come out of the down ward spin early. While I do see this as very useful and potentially very good for spiking and other uses I don't know how to preform it or why it even happens. I have never successfully preformed it when I've wanted to, and this can be terribly unhelpful in leaving me open when preformed with the intent to smash down at full speed to the ground only the to be left up in the air wide open. Any ideas or information on this?
PS: Sorry if this has been posted somewhere on here before if it was I couldn't find it.
PS: Sorry if this has been posted somewhere on here before if it was I couldn't find it.
Volimutt
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2014
- Messages
- 61
- Location
- Some cave with wi-fi
- NNID
- CapnDonutBear
- 3DS FC
- 3840-8943-0914
The upward momentum. If you're knocked up and d-air right away you'll spin in slow moving downward motion.
Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
@
J
Jerodak
I'm liking this use of side B. Though the precision required can be tricky to pull off, even when you set a cpu to control so that they make no inputs. Knowing what Bowser could do with the aid of a platform to hop onto can make for an excellent surprise followup. Any tech that lets us true combo Side B in to Down B is worth a look. Bowser's hop momentum is actually much stronger when traveling backwards. Unfortunately, this puts you further from your opponent, but it doesn't require nearly as much precise spacing to land from the two platforms on battlefield to the top one.
There's an issue though. When grabbing specific characters, it seems like Bowser is incapable of getting onto that top platform, even with perfect positioning. I don't know yet what factors are in play. I thought that Bowser wasn't bouncing high enough because characters like Zelda are just so small when being squished into the ground. However, an enemy Bowser is also one of the characters in which you cannot perform this tech with, at least not when trying to move forward onto the platform. I know there's no difference in the height of the bounce, because he can clear the top platform when moving backward after launching any character.
The characters that I could consistently perform this tech with are
. Everybody else gave me trouble. And many seemed much easier than the rest, such as ROB, the Kirby characters, Marth/Lucina, the Mario Bros., and Mewtwo. I don't know what all these characters share.
Lylat Cruise will give you less trouble with the lower platforms, but the stage's tilting with both help and hinder this tech.
There's an issue though. When grabbing specific characters, it seems like Bowser is incapable of getting onto that top platform, even with perfect positioning. I don't know yet what factors are in play. I thought that Bowser wasn't bouncing high enough because characters like Zelda are just so small when being squished into the ground. However, an enemy Bowser is also one of the characters in which you cannot perform this tech with, at least not when trying to move forward onto the platform. I know there's no difference in the height of the bounce, because he can clear the top platform when moving backward after launching any character.
The characters that I could consistently perform this tech with are
. Everybody else gave me trouble. And many seemed much easier than the rest, such as ROB, the Kirby characters, Marth/Lucina, the Mario Bros., and Mewtwo. I don't know what all these characters share.Lylat Cruise will give you less trouble with the lower platforms, but the stage's tilting with both help and hinder this tech.
Jerodak
Smash Lord
@
Zapp Branniglenn
thanks for testing that, I was actually curious if certain characters were exempt from this tech or not when I was having some trouble landing it on villager, but I hadn't gone and tested it yet. In the meantime it might be worth it to try stages with slopes to see if that improves anything.
It's also fairly important to see if this doesn't stop being useful at the midish-lateish percentage game since it seems that side b actually appears to deal some impressive hitstun. Haven't confirmed a true combo k.o from it yet, but I'll keep looking.
On the other hand, let's say you just miss the platform, well fast falling characters are probably forced to land on the platform, giving a simple tech chase set-up. Floaties are likely forced into defensive positions, and forced to jump, trying to go aggro through platforms can be very risky, especially vs Bowser.
Might be good to keep in mind, especially on stages or vs characters that don't let you d.I onto the platform anyway.
Edit: known stages where this works.
Battlefield
Halberd (when not on the ship)
Delfino (umbrellas, and the section with the red overhang thing, whatever those are called. You can use both it and the raised ledge under it.)
Lylat cruise (outer platforms)
Zapp Branniglenn
thanks for testing that, I was actually curious if certain characters were exempt from this tech or not when I was having some trouble landing it on villager, but I hadn't gone and tested it yet. In the meantime it might be worth it to try stages with slopes to see if that improves anything.It's also fairly important to see if this doesn't stop being useful at the midish-lateish percentage game since it seems that side b actually appears to deal some impressive hitstun. Haven't confirmed a true combo k.o from it yet, but I'll keep looking.
On the other hand, let's say you just miss the platform, well fast falling characters are probably forced to land on the platform, giving a simple tech chase set-up. Floaties are likely forced into defensive positions, and forced to jump, trying to go aggro through platforms can be very risky, especially vs Bowser.
Might be good to keep in mind, especially on stages or vs characters that don't let you d.I onto the platform anyway.
Edit: known stages where this works.
Battlefield
Halberd (when not on the ship)
Delfino (umbrellas, and the section with the red overhang thing, whatever those are called. You can use both it and the raised ledge under it.)
Lylat cruise (outer platforms)
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The Sit King
Smash Rookie
Really? Well alright then. Thanks for the help!
Jerodak
Smash Lord
Characters that do not recover their jumps when grabbed of the air:
Yoshi
Villager
Game and watch
Ness
Lucas
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Olimar
Make sure to scoop them up if you see them using up their jumps.
Edit: Was goofing around the lab and found a use for "frame cancelled" aerials. Turns out that Bowser can make use of it using his up air. I just did some training mode tests on fox at 50% and I can confirm up air to up air, up up air to n-air, and up air to b-air.
Just did a second test on 60% and got up air -> fair to work. The really cool part is that you can use both the front and back hit; maybe it could be used for cross ups?
Yoshi
Villager
Game and watch
Ness
Lucas
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Olimar
Make sure to scoop them up if you see them using up their jumps.
Edit: Was goofing around the lab and found a use for "frame cancelled" aerials. Turns out that Bowser can make use of it using his up air. I just did some training mode tests on fox at 50% and I can confirm up air to up air, up up air to n-air, and up air to b-air.
Just did a second test on 60% and got up air -> fair to work. The really cool part is that you can use both the front and back hit; maybe it could be used for cross ups?
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a stray cat
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 56
What do you mean by "frame cancelled" aerials?
Jerodak
Smash Lord
@
a stray cat
When you hit an opponent with a high hitlag move just within 1 frame or so as you land, you go into your landing animation before the opponent is launched. This shaves off a few frames and gives you better frame advantage. For a popular example look for some videos about it for Falco's d-air.
a stray cat
When you hit an opponent with a high hitlag move just within 1 frame or so as you land, you go into your landing animation before the opponent is launched. This shaves off a few frames and gives you better frame advantage. For a popular example look for some videos about it for Falco's d-air.
Hitman JT
The Infinite One
Just updated 3DSmash and Bowsercide is STILL a loss. Don't see any major changes so far.
Haven't tried on Wii U yet
Haven't tried on Wii U yet
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Zapp Branniglenn
Smash Lord
Sounds like Dantarion is back to provide us a data dump. Changes in damage, knockback, active frames, and transition windows should be easy to spot if he pulls through. So I'll be working on checking for things that the dump will not be able to find, such as changes in endlag and FAFs. Just went over all of Bowser's and it seems none of his moves are faster or slower than they used to be.