Bowser Needs Something

[Blank Mauser]

On the subject of the grappler archetype, when you compare Bowser to Gief simply replace "untechable command grab" with "Armor grab that also can be used in the air." Then you still have similarities, like quick invincible attacks(Hint: they both spin) and limited mobility. I get what GeZ is saying though. Smash works differently since you don't turn around while shielding and shield grabbing is a very exploitable bad habit against good players. Gief's short mobility also works as an advantage to him when he empty jumps, making a lot of planned anti-airs whiff. Bowser can't really alter his trajectory as well which is why I thought his attacks could be made to move him slightly with my kara suggestion.

I do however think Smash has its own grappler archetype. This can be seen in interesting characters like Ice Climbers especially. What Bowser lacks compared to them is the gap closing ability. Then you have characters like Charizard who have high ground mobility, grab range, and can setup very advantageous tech-chases off them. If Bowser is trying to be a grappler, I'd rather argue hes not a very effective one. Because of his armor gimmick hes actually probably more susceptible to throws himself.

So looking at remaining categories Bowser fits in, he is one of the few characters who is largely defensive. Despite this I don't think it deters people from approaching at all. Not only that but if Bowser was to get camped he can't even charge something. I do think its kind of unfair that characters who have projectiles and already make approaching difficult, like Lucas and Ivy, can also charge devastating KO moves if you don't approach them.

Looking at the thread it seems we've already established a lot of possible more radical changes to his kit. It'd be nice if he had just something to charge, like his taunt giving him a buff. For gap closers you could do a number of things. Like give him extra cancels or let him charge his side-B for more range. I also like the idea of giving extra hitboxes to attacks that might yield more frame advantage on shield.

For subtle changes you could just continually balance the stronger characters and I think Bowser might fall into place. It wouldn't be a high place, but he'd be there. Give or take a few frame data adjustments.

 

[FakeKraid]

For subtle changes you could just continually balance the stronger characters and I think Bowser might fall into place. It wouldn't be a high place, but he'd be there. Give or take a few frame data adjustments.

That's basically what I advocate. Hell, just nerfing some of the currently OP characters' recoveries would do a lot in that regard, not just for Bowser but for every mid and low-tier character.

 

[Abeebo]

Give Dtilt1 light armor. Defense game +1

 

[Candypants]

I have no idea why so many bowsers are moaning about ness and link. Just jump at ness and he can't hit you with pk fire, if he misses once punish hard. Link is too slow to run away, so whenever he tries a projectile that's not the bomb just running attack through it, chain into combos.

God I hate pit though.

 

[Rags]

I have no idea why so many bowsers are moaning about ness and link. Just jump at ness and he can't hit you with pk fire, if he misses once punish hard. Link is too slow to run away, so whenever he tries a projectile that's not the bomb just running attack through it, chain into combos.

God I hate pit though.

That's true about link, I played one online the other day and dash attack clanks with his arrows. I don't know about the bombs but up close I had no issue. Bombs helped me recover actually. Would have died otherwise.

 

[Jacob29]

I have no idea why so many bowsers are moaning about ness and link. Just jump at ness and he can't hit you with pk fire, if he misses once punish hard. Link is too slow to run away, so whenever he tries a projectile that's not the bomb just running attack through it, chain into combos.

God I hate pit though.

You can't just keep jumping around Ness and expect to not get punished at some point.


Link is too slow to run away from what? Bowser? I dunno man.

Can you dash attack through boomerang? I don't think you can..

also if the Link is being hit by dash attacks like that he is just spacing wrong. I am not an amazing Bowser player, but I have played against an amazing Link player, and it isn't even the projectiles that I think ruin the matchup it's the god damn Z-Air attack.

You can't touch him if he does that, he jumps and Z-Airs. It covers our jump, and our ground approaches.

 

[Candypants]

That's true about link, I played one online the other day and dash attack clanks with his arrows. I don't know about the bombs but up close I had no issue. Bombs helped me recover actually. Would have died otherwise.

The start of bowser's dash attack goes through arrows and boomerangs, if you hit outside the armor it clanks.

You can't just keep jumping around Ness and expect to not get punished at some point.



Link is too slow to run away from what? Bowser? I dunno man.


Can you dash attack through boomerang? I don't think you can..


also if the Link is being hit by dash attacks like that he is just spacing wrong. I am not an amazing Bowser player, but I have played against an amazing Link player, and it isn't even the projectiles that I think ruin the matchup it's the god damn Z-Air attack.


You can't touch him if he does that, he jumps and Z-Airs. It covers our jump, and our ground approaches.

imo putting bowser in the air removes the threat of pk fire, what punishes does ness have that go through nair (my knowledge of ness is lacking)?


You can dash through boomerang, just tested it.

Links Z-Air does nothing to crouch armor into dtilt, possibly nair and dash attack goes through it too but I didn't test them.

 

[Jacob29]

errr pretty sure if he Z-airs, while moving backwards it outspaces any and all of our attacks bar flame breath.

Hmm guess I need to try dash attack more against link..

but I already feel my whole Bowser playstyle is spam dash attack....

 

[Rags]

but I already feel my whole Bowser playstyle is spam dash attack....

If it helps, I feel like my whole playstyle is spam upB OoS against some characters (Sonic) so I guess having a new move to spam wouldn't be bad. Last link I fought it was a mix of jumping over projectiles, crawling through em and dash attack clank into forward tilt if I was close enough. Had trouble punishing his recovery on stage though.

 

[FakeKraid]

If you spam dash attack against good players you're going to get shield grabbed a lot. You're better off learning to space fairs or overshoot with nair to hit behind them and mix up periodically with a side-B to punish turtling. That's if you have to approach at all, of course - if you can force an approach that's almost always preferable.

 

[Jacob29]

I'd like to know the magic you can use to make a Link approach you

 

[Candypants]

errr pretty sure if he Z-airs, while moving backwards it outspaces any and all of our attacks bar flame breath.

I'm willing to bet dtilt will hit if you crawl

 

[FakeKraid]

I'd like to know the magic you can use to make a Link approach you

Oh, besides being a stock up almost nothing. That's one reason it's such a bad match for Bowser. If you could gimp Link reliably it might balance it out but as is it's hard to do even that, and even if you do get in it doesn't get any easier thanks to the buffs they gave his combo game. Make no mistake, Link is an uphill battle every step of the way.

But it can be won. Strike/ban big stages, don't be aggressive, power shield where possible and try to bait overreach then punish it. Link gets comboed and tech chased pretty badly himself, that helps.

 

[Jacob29]

I'm willing to bet dtilt will hit if you crawl

So then he doesn't Zair?

I dunno. Will try more. Maybe you are right.

 

[Eisen]

Sorry to necrobump kinda (even though it's a slow board) I feel like if the rest of the cast gets nerfs, Bowser only needs a few things to be viable, which I don't think he is in high level play tournaments.

1. Faster jumpsquat, probably 6 frames
2. Better dash speed
those alone would make him so much more viable, although I think his power may need to be toned down slightly as a result, mostly on fair? I don't know, honestly.

Other potential alternatives:
3. Allow Bowser to walk with flame breath, albeit slowly. This would allow him better stage control.
4. un-nerf flame breath? Idk why it was even nerfed
5. Reduce cooldown after active hitboxes on dsmash. Seriously, this move is annoyingly punishable. I know it's big, but it's not like it's really killing in tournaments that I see.

Generally I feel like Bowser, in order to be viable, could use a general de-polarization. He should be strong, but not so much he has to be one of the most comboable, spammable characters to play against, on top of having no approach, poor recovery, and being way too fat.

Ganon is fat, but he has a good waveland, fast/good/not laggy-as-hell approaches and spacing options, etc.
Dedede isn't good really either so comparing them is futile.

 

[Abeebo]

I believe Flame Breath was originally nerfed in 2.6 because prior versions of the move had a huge minimum to it, which in turn made it too good against opponents coming back to the ledge. Bowser could literally hold the fully decayed flame for days and the opponent couldn't get out of it without getting a near-guaranteed punish from Bowser if they decided to DI away and off the stage.

The thing is that only the hitbubbles were reworked in 3.0 to push away and down instead of pulling in, so Bowser got stuck with the fast decay AND lowered minimum.

 

[CyberZixx]

A new hat would boost his confidence i'm certain.

 

[Jacob29]

Ah yes remove bowsers flame edgeguard but no, let charizard have all the glory.

I thought our jump squat already was 6?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's 8, Jacob. Literally 2 frames worse than the second worst (Ganon). -_-

 

[Jacob29]

dear lord thats bad..

 

[Phaiyte]

If all he needs is more speed just feed him some adderall and it'll be alright.

 

[Phaiyte]

{words}
Dedede isn't good really either so comparing them is futile.

what the actual ****

 

[Mr. Bones]

I think a faster Dash speed and slightly better frame data would be perfect for the king. <3

Just learn to power shield projectiles. It turns a lot of our harder MUs on their head. My game became like 20x better once I started practicing that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

D3 doesn't look that good at first glance, but he's in a different league entirely from Bowser. It's tough for me to articulate why - you'd just have to watch some good D3's in action.

 

[robosteven]

2.6 fortress hogging.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I think Bowser's Armor Mechanics are good, he just needs a way to do one of the following:

1. Get in
. or
2. Force an approach

Now that we've stated the obvious I believe we must discuss what is or is not viable to add or remove from him. Here's what I've found so far:

• No tweaks to his Grounded Up-B, it's already very good and well balanced.
• No giving his Side-B better approach options, 2.6 showed us that quite loudly.
• Buffing his recovery is unnecessary, he just needs a better on-stage game.
• Adding improved Grapple options to his Side-B may be cool, but doesn't help his approach or neutral pressure.
• His Down-B is already very useful at both juggling and edgehogging, no changes needed.
• Better run speed sounds quite reasonabe
• Bowser really needs a better wavedash
• The PMDT already tried out giving him a projectile, they decided against it.

Finally, let's state ideas for solutions. Here's mine:

• Keep his wavedash and do not change it's length but instead make it so that if you jump out of it during the last 3 frames of his 8 frame jumpsquat he will gain immense horizontal speed, enough to go half of FD and still do a non-Fast Falled Fair. This will give him quite a nice approach. While it can be punished, it gives a few mixups: 1) Waveland backwards into the ground to gain some stage control. 2) Waveland into a Up-B to punish aerial defenses. 3) Side-B to punish too aggressive approaches. 4) Flame Breath for mixup. Wavedash to shield to shieldgrab/Up-B OoS 5) Waveland F-Tilt. While I fear this may be OP, it would give him an interesting approach option that cannot be used while under pressure.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I am kind of torn apart about the jumpsquat thing. I would want to keep it for its uniqueness, but I know reducing it would address Bowsers issues very well...

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wizard: Probably a slightly more feasible version of your idea; dramatically (or not as dramatically, calm down) reducing Bowser's friction (and thus improving his wavelands and stuff) is a really interesting thought. It'd

+ reduce his dependence on upb oos, due to being pushed farther away from opponents, probably helping to de-polarize matchups that feel too harsh for opponents.
+ reduce his vulnerability to shield pressure that leads into grabs (like shinegrab, Lucario's anything into grab, Diddy's GT into grab or sideb, etc) for the same reason
+ improve Bowser's mobility, without necessarily resorting to changing his frame data re: jumpsquat (I suspect PMBR would prefer to stick close to Melee bowser for this -- plus imo it makes sense that he would have trouble changing directions. Inertia and all that)
+ Fit thematically with the way he already slides around in his shell during up-b
+ Raise his skill ceiling by emphasizing the importance of a technical feature and mobility (see: Luigi), and also possibly allow more creative combos and shield pressure and stuff (ie. sliding forward dtilt -> jab -> grab as Bowser closes on a shielding opponent)
+ Allow Bowser to more realistically WD oos (moreso if combined with improved jumpsquat)
+ look absolutely goddam hilarious and/or cool
+ Give Bowser something like real approach options, and give him a tool to deal with the enormous startup on some of his grounded options (Klaw, all his smashes, ftilt)
+ Give Bowser a reason to sometimes use his standing grab
- Might be slightly OP (but probably not), would require testing. This might allow Bowser to get by without the almost universally-disliked armor mechanic, and maybe a slightly nerfed up-B.


I fully realize I'm firmly back in Magical Funtime Dreamland here, but if I could play a smaller Bowser with a less crappy jumpsquat that could move like a fat Luigi, I'd probably never touch another character ever again.

pmdt pls respond
pmdt pls
pls

 

[Rags]

A sliding bowser would make his MUs against characters like Samus even worse though. Missiles on shield would constantly push him away

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's a legit point, though
- not if you powershield them
- If crouch armor were still in, could WD/WL in, crouch to get through missiles
- Could WD/WL in, spotdodge
- can come in from above/on platforms

Hmm.

Another, unrelated possibility: Allow Bowser to jump out of neutral B. I don't know if this is practical or wise or balanced, but it would be interesting to play with, and give Bowser an easier time forcing approaches (as well as punishing them with fadeaway fairs)

 

[robosteven]

That's a legit point, though
- not if you powershield them

If everyone could do this consistently on every projectile nobody would ever complain about projectiles ever

but they can't

because powershielding is hard

 

[Frost | Odds]

Powershielding some projectiles (notably razor leaf and other variable-speed stuff like Big Link's Boomerang) is hard. Powershielding missiles with Bowser (especially while crouching) is not.

Regardless, in general I'd agree with the sentiment that depending on powershield for balance purposes is unwise.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Powershielding is hard, but it's possible to be fairly consistent with it and it's worth learning.

And...no Odds...just no. Nerf his Up-B? Ew. It's not even the best option to begin with. Also his armor is ****ing amazing/not broken. Being smart with your armor timing is like learning how to wave-shine or shine-grab..etc.

I don't want to play fat Luigi, I want to play Bowser.

I can definitely get behind some slightly better frame data and a faster dash though. That's really all he needs.

Also, Steven, 2.6 Fortress Hogging isn't really necessary anymore. If you practice it while facing away enough, it becomes fairly easy. Plus, you can still pretty much auto-snap to the ledge if your facing it when you Up-B towards it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Also his armor is ****ing amazing/not broken. Being smart with your armor timing is like learning how to wave-shine or shine-grab..etc.

The armor isn't broken, it's just responsible for a lot of his matchup polarization, along with the up-b. It doesn't help at all with the matchups where Bowser struggles/autoloses, and pretty much just makes his good matchups feel oppressive/unfun for his opponent.

I fully support the armor on the down-b and the nair, and atm it's necessary on his dash attack because of his poor design, but the pmdt could do a lot better.

I don't want to play fat Luigi, I want to play Bowser.

And I want to play Bowser that has some actual mobility and options instead of simply autolosing to every opponent who knows how to DD grab, or pick Ivysaur/ZSS/Link/M2/etc. Obviously, reducing his traction to Luigi's level isn't realistic -- but reducing it to some degree is certainly an interesting (and probably useful) mental exercise, as well as a possibly decent direction to look in re: balancing Bowser. Changing his landing detection to make it possible to perfect waveland consistently may be another possibility.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I agree with giving him more mobility. But saying that he auto-loses to those characters is silly. I explained why in general discussion. :3

Also the armor is hardly oppressive to people that know how to play against it (i.e: Grab. lol)

And it's not totally useless in any MU (except maybe Ganon/DDD? lol). It just becomes more situational in some MUs than others.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Also the armor is hardly oppressive to people that know how to play against it (i.e: Grab. lol)

I mean, I agree, but that's exactly the problem. Armor is only good against people that already would have lost because they're dumb - it just makes the loss more frustrating / less comprehensible for them.

But saying that he auto-loses to those characters is silly. I explained why in general discussion. :3

I've explained why this is wrong elsewhere. Of course you can beat bad players (or even otherwise decent ones) in 0-100 matchups if they don't know the matchup.

Ask @Ripple about DDD vs Ivysaur, and note that Bowser has it even worse because unlike D3, he's also completely outranged by Ivy, and has no means of dealing with Razor Leaf, or any means of walling Ivy out.

 

[Rags]

Well, Maybe I'm not playing good Ivysaur players, but I'm finding ways to work with the MU.

Maybe if they buff his fire breath and make it so nothing can get past it? Possibly increase the duration it stays out/decrease recharge time/slow the decay? Cuz it dies out super quick

Like I was playing the new smash and that flame stays out FOREVER in comparison to our wimpy one. Make's PM's one look like a small puff.

 

[robosteven]

WHERE'S NICK RIDDLE WHEN WE NEED HIM

For realsies though, was Bowser better in 2.6? I was under the impression that he got nerfed a bit.

 

[Mr. Bones]

He was better in 2.6. But people that didn't know how to fight him cried and he got nerfed for the ****tiest of reasons. lol

Feel like he was more balanced in that version, if a bit over-reliant on that ledge game.

 

[robosteven]

Lots of characters have great edge-game, I don't see what the big deal was. Would bringing him back to 2.6-level solve his problems?