Bowser Needs Something

[MasterDoom1666]

Bowser is really good, but he needs a bit more speed.

 

[Phan7om]

lmao he does tho

 

[MasterDoom1666]

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I am quite a big fan of this idea about changing his side-b. Doesn't address all the issues but some of them.
Not really conviced more speed would fit in Bowsers design, but he definitely needs something to avoid that he gets grabbed almost for free.
I was thinking about grab-resistence on his superarmor, might be a bit gimmicky though because it would mean he needs to throw out a dash attack if someone is approaching him with the idea of grabbing him (nair and down-b aren't really fast enough options, maybe side-b might also work). Most of Bowsers anti-grab attempts could be avoided on reaction and punished afterwards, but some moves might be fast enough to be a serious weapon against it.

 

[Abeebo]

Honestly, his moveset is pretty fine the way it is. He could definitely use slightly better frame data though, which I suppose would indirectly mean he could use a speed boost. Srsly, his squat is crippling. Ideally, Bowser would want to rely less on 'gimmicks' anyway. Bowser's best anti-grab? His MASSIVE hitboxes.

 

[CPU?]

It would be pretty cool if they gave him a faster jump animation so it would be a lot easier to wave dash with him. His side-b is awesome and shouldn't be changed IMO

 

[XalchemistX]

If is more faster or becomes a wavedash-able character I'll start flipping tables (not the heavy ones...)

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Let's be real here.

Bowser needs a LOT of things.

It's just that no one seems to want him to be good for some reason.

I don't fear Bowser when I'm near him. And it shouldn't be that way.

 

[Rᴏb]

IMO a redesign is needed. Stick with the whole armor system, but ditch a lot of the melee aspects that keep getting added back to him, they just don't work all that well against a big chunk of the cast. Smash 4 seems to be going in the right direction in terms of maneuverability, so maybe the PMBR could take some inspirtation from that game. Giving Bowser a new model could open more moveset potential too.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Maybe make his Side and Neutral Specials more viable? Like the above link for side and maybe a longer duration and faster startup for neutral.

Also, I believe Bowser's lack of a proper wavedash makes him kind of cool. Maybe instead he could cancel his grounded Up Special into an attack, but if he misses that attack the endlag doubles.

 

[Abeebo]

Maybe instead he could cancel his grounded Up Special into an attack

It's already a strong attack, and it already can cancel into the best ledge attack. I'd rather he have a more general movement change.

If is more faster or becomes a wavedash-able character I'll start flipping tables (not the heavy ones...)

Why do people think Bowser can't/shouldn't wavedash? Too scared?

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

They need to remove the tipper from his Fair.

This does not add skill to the character. It makes him bad.

A LOT of his followups into fair don't allow for such perfect spacing.

Given his flaws, hitting someone should be MORE than sufficient.

To be perfectly honest, I'd push for 2.1 bowser (Minus a few things so people don't ***** and complain)

I don't even play the character, and I wanna see him be better.

That should tell you something.

When you nerf a character to the point where the Bowser mains start playing other characters, you ****ed up.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

It's already a strong attack, and it already can cancel into the best ledge attack. I'd rather he have a more general movement change.

Why do people think Bowser can't/shouldn't wavedash? Too scared?

Good point, I just thought that this would be a good replacement for a wavedash. But now that I look back at it it isn't the best idea.

As for why he shouldn't wavedash... He is a 500+ pound Dragon who is so fat attacks don't knock him back in the slightest when he attacks. Why should he be able to use a ground slide GLIDE power? Gliding usuall requires not much weight.


Now for something to help Bowser... maybe a Projectile? *Braces for impact* Sorry, I'm sorry but I have to bring it up.

So you know his Neutral Special right? Well, it stays. The change is however that if you activate it and hold the down button, Bowser keeps the flames in his mouth. Note that it does take a bit to start up, but nothing overly horrible. Now there's a few things this can do:

1. It can regen his fire breath at twice it's normal rate as long as it's below his starting charge. Above his starting charge, it starts at basic recharge rate and lowers to half this rate as the charge grows. Caps out at twice the starting charge.
2. It can charge it past his starting charge, this is the only way to overcharge it and can be useful to get the most out of his Flame Breath.
3. He can walk while charging if you input a downwards diagonal.
4. He can go back to his normal flame breathing by letting go of down and store the charge by pressing shield.
5. When he reaches a 2.80 charge, he flashes orange three times, shielding anytime after this will store a Fireball.
6. If hit while charging he loses half of what he just charged. Switching between spew and charge modes is a good way to keep safe, but it leaves you open to attack.

(Note, above values are just suggestions, I'm not 100% sure about the numbers)

Fireball is a Aura Sphere-type move that travels at a speed that is slow enough to react to, but not so slow it can be effortlessly avoided. I guess the speed of Mewtwo's fully charged Shadow Ball is good but I'm not completely sure. It deals a upwards and forwards knockback with moderately high damage. It looks like Bowser's SMB1 fireball. He can hold up to 2 fireballs and it has quite noticable startup lag, so it can only be used at a distance of during combos. It kills any projectiles it hits but clanks with any normally clankable attack. (IDK if that's possible though) It's main use is to allow Bowser to approach a little easier without giving it to him whenever he wants. He's quite vulnerable when charging so if you want to stop his fireball, that's when to use it.


Overall, I do not think this technique is overly powerful, but would help him quite a bit against projectile users. Oh, and if you want to say that charging is too free, keep in mind his Fire Breath cannot destroy projectiles and that if he gets hit with so much as a Spacie Lazer or Ninja Needle, he's losing his charge. However, he can shield them so there is t

 

[FakeKraid]

Nah, Bowser's build is near-perfect right now. I've been a Bowser main since the day Melee came out and I've never felt better with him. Even with little practice and the latest nerfs to his fair and grab game I consistently place in the middle of tournaments and never lose to a player worse than me, even in unfavorable matchups.

 

[FreeGamer]

How about un-nerfing Fire Breath? I still don't get why it was nerfed to oblivion.

 

[FakeKraid]

If anything, they need to nerf a few currently OP characters who have impenetrable neutral games that make it impossible for not only Bowser but anyone without an equally broken neutral game to get in. That, along with paring down the stage selection, would fix most of what's wrong with this build in my opinion.

 

[mimgrim]

Bowser needs a way to deal with projectiles.

/thread

 

[FakeKraid]

Bowser needs a way to deal with projectiles.

/thread

Nah. He's got plenty of ways to do that if you're good at moving - his shield is big, he's not a fast-faller, and he can dash-attack through close projectiles or crawl through weak ones. He's actually got -more- options for dealing with them than most fatties or melee-oriented fighters.

 

[mimgrim]

Nah. He's got plenty of ways to do that if you're good at moving - his shield is big, he's not a fast-faller, and he can dash-attack through close projectiles or crawl through weak ones. He's actually got -more- options for dealing with them than most fatties or melee-oriented fighters.

You are servery overrating his mobility.

He's fat and slow. If you happen to be able to be able to deal with the projectile(s) in the first place you then have to worry about catching the opponent. Good luck with that.

Bowser does fine against characters with no projectiles. Because he is able to out range them usually and force them to approach instead. But against a projectile user that are using their projectile like they should against Bowser, it becomes near impossible.

 

[FakeKraid]

You are servery overrating his mobility.

He's fat and slow. If you happen to be able to be able to deal with the projectile(s) in the first place you then have to worry about catching the opponent. Good luck with that.

I mean, I'm just speaking from experience. I routinely place in the middle of events in my region (MD/VA) and I don't lose to projectile spammers (I beat Diddy Kongs, for example). I lose to characters who can combo me zero-to-death on punish (like Captain Falcon; Crescent Monkey has put me out of three tournaments so far and JJ Remo probably would have too if we weren't always seeded apart because we're from the same town) and characters who can play keep-away and/or have broken neutral games (Pit, Mario, Lucas). The only projectiles that really give me severe trouble are Link's, and those give EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME severe trouble because they're horribly broken at the moment, like that character in general. Other than Link, whose projectiles are you afraid of here? I'm legitimately asking because I can probably give you advice on how to get around them, or at least how to make them not matter in terms of the general MU.

EDIT: In general, though, the rule is to crouch-cancel weak ones like Shiek Needles, Ness PK Fire,

 

[mimgrim]

Fox's Lasers,

PK Fire.

Needles.

Pit's Arrows.

Shadow Ball.

Missles.

Toon Link.

Link.

Mario's Fireballs.

Snake.

Those are the immediate ones that come to mind.

And I'm not talking about projectile spammers. I'm talking about people who use them smartly and play the keep away game with them. Fox can do it hella good since he is so fast and mobile along with his projectile being fast and being able to cancel any lag on it. Bowser's only answer to PK Fire is to Powershield due to how fat he is, which is asking a lot of to be consistent with. Needles are needles and have always been a problem. And so on and so forth.

 

[FakeKraid]

I haven't found a Fox player yet who can beat my Bowser; his lasers don't even keep away *normal* characters, and Bowser can just crouch through most of his combo starters; I honestly don't even think Fox has that good of a MU against Bowser.

Pit's Arrows are bad, yeah, but again Pit is completely broken in this build; his arrows are a problem for everyone, and they're not even the thing that makes pit a bad MU - that would be Pit's low-commitment that makes him nearly impossible to get in on, of which his arrows are admittedly a part.

Shadow Ball shouldn't be much of a problem compared to Mewtwo's other strengths, like his insane reach and movement and his ability to gimp just about any character at low %; just crouch through weak ones or jump over them, and play patient so you don't get baited into big ones - or any other attacks, for that matter. Don't try to rush in too much against Mewtwo because he's also pretty broken right now, TBH, and if you're up against a really good one (like Frozen or someone) you're probably screwed anyway, but not because of Shadow Ball.

Link's I've already admitted are bad, but again that's true for every character; they're a nightmare no matter who you pick. Toon Link's are bad too, for the same reason, but he's overall not as dangerous so it's not nearly as intimidating. Once you do get in on Link, you're just as screwed because of his reach and combos and kill potential, whereas once you get in on Toon Link you can pretty much wreck him.

Samus's projectiles can be scary if you don't play patient, but if you play patient she doesn't have a lot of tricks up her sleeve that haven't been seen before. I just wait for Samus players to overreach and then punish with strong attacks and gimping - Bowser is one of the only characters in the game that can pretty reliably gimp Samus.

Mario's fireballs are sometimes a problem, but only if you're trying to rush in on him and that's usually not a good idea anyway. Play patient and don't let him bait you - the real threat with Mario isn't the fireballs, but the strong neutral game and vicious combos once he's *done* using the fireballs. I've only lost to a Mario once, in or out of tournament, though, so I don't think the matchup is really that terribly bad, Mario's (admittedly probably very slight) OPness aside.

Snake is way more dangerous for his C4, which lets him kill Bowser at ridiculously low percentages and can be comboed from a low% uthrow, than he is for his other projectiles, which can mostly be evaded with clever movement or shielded and (if he's too close) punished. I've taken a match off East Coast Eddie in tournament on Final Destination; his projectiles are nowhere *near* as nightmarish as Link's.

As for PK Fire, just crouch, dude. Seriously. Crouch and dtilt as he tries to approach and like 90% of the time you'll hit him away because the attack comes out before the next hit of the fire has a chance to interrupt it. I beat Nesses - and good ones, too - routinely. The real threat against good Ness players is the close-up combo game - same with Lucas, of course. But both characters can be gimped, and especially Ness. Lucas's tether makes it harder.

 

[Rags]

I think the only thing bowser needs is a better neutral game. He's this game's Potemkin or Iron Tager, but unlike these, he has no real safe options. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since I am still inexperienced, but I find that to be his biggest issue. TONs of kill potential, good edge game, but poor recovery and neutral. I saw buff his grab game and maybe let his neutral B last a bit longer.

 

[FakeKraid]

I think the only thing bowser needs is a better neutral game. He's this game's Potemkin or Iron Tager, but unlike these, he has no real safe options. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since I am still inexperienced, but I find that to be his biggest issue. TONs of kill potential, good edge game, but poor recovery and neutral. I saw buff his grab game and maybe let his neutral B last a bit longer.

I think that's basically exactly right (and sort of what I was getting at with mentioning other character's broken neutral games). The only difference I have with you is I would rather gimp those characters' broken neutral games by adding lag, decreasing power, or other tweaks, than change Bowser because I absolutely LOVE his build right now, exactly like it is.

 

[FakeKraid]

No, I'll tell you what Bowser REALLY needs: a win symbol and win music of his own. Bowser isn't part of the Mushroom Kingdom, so giving him Mario's symbol and music is totally whack. Yoshi has his own music; Donkey Kong has his own music; Wario has his own music; why not Bowser? Fortunately, I've already made this suggestion to C-Mart and J Caesar for the next build and they accepted it, so look forward to Bowser (hopefully) having the Bowser-face symbol from Super Mario 64 as his victory symbol in the near future. :D

 

[Jacob29]

Are you playing a different version to me or something?? One where bowsers dtilt has actually good armour?

Because yes you CAN crouch Pk fire(but it sucks to do that) but the second you try to dtilt you get HIT by the fire because dtilt has armour BEFORE the hitbix but not DURING.

If you are playing against a ness and it isn't Wariowsare, my opinion is that the game is already over.

Unless there is some hidden DI I'm not doing my friend can combo me to death fairly easily. If its FD the game is over, you can't approach ness, and he WILL combo you to death.

Fair, don't get the last hitbox , down throw, fair with no last hit, dthrow, fair, offstage, fair you are DONE.

Or he can just get you offstage and use pkflash (seriously how can Bowser deal with that on FD?).


Also what Bowser clearly needs is a laggier back air and an even tighter fair sweet spot.

 

[FakeKraid]

I beat Ness players on Final Destination, Battlefield, Stadium 2, Dreamland, and pretty much anywhere else. Honestly you shouldn't even be getting hit with PK fire that much if you're playing patient because it's predictable, and Ness can't recover against Bowser at all, so it's quite possible to win that match even on large stages. Combos can be a problem, as with pretty much any Bowser MU, but if they're so much of a problem that you can't win against Ness you may not be pressing your opportunities hard enough. I can't say for sure without watching footage of your battles, though.

EDIT: And as to the d-tilt thing specifically, you just have to jam the button for a bit and you'll eventually slip one in between PK Fire hits. They don't come every frame, after all. And if that's not working, you can also spam up-B, which often works in a pinch. Ness isn't by any means Bowser's easiest MU, but he's quite manageable, unlike, say,a super-technical Captain Falcon or Zero-Suit Samus, who can pretty consistently zero-to-death Bowser for real.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

What if Bowser could jump out of Up-B? This would solve his problem of getting in on his opponents as he could Up-B to Wavedash to whatever.

 

[WinterShorts]

Wait are you telling me Bowser needs even MORE improvement in Project M? Guys, he's broken as all f##k are you kidding me!? He can already jump out of his down-b from ground making him jump really high, not to mention his side-smash is so ridiculous it can kill at nearly 20-30%! You tell me Bowser needs something else? Fine, make my PM main OP.

 

[FakeKraid]

I don't think Bowser is OP right now; he has no truly safe offensive options and suffers greatly against characters and players who can exploit his weaknesses. But he's not under-powered either - you can win even bad MUs with him if you play patient and don't mess up. I think his build is perfect as-is and should be used as a gold standard for balancing other characters.

EDIT: As for jump-canceling his up-B, holy f*** would THAT ever be OP. That would make his ground movement so safe and free he'd make Pit look weak.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

EDIT: As for jump-canceling his up-B, holy f*** would THAT ever be OP. That would make his ground movement so safe and free he'd make Pit look weak.

I thought that would be the case. How about this?

Now for something to help Bowser... maybe a Projectile? *Braces for impact* Sorry, I'm sorry but I have to bring it up.

So you know his Neutral Special right? Well, it stays. The change is however that if you activate it and hold the down button, Bowser keeps the flames in his mouth. Note that it does take a bit to start up, but nothing overly horrible. Now there's a few things this can do:

1. It can regen his fire breath at twice it's normal rate as long as it's below his starting charge. Above his starting charge, it starts at basic recharge rate and lowers to half this rate as the charge grows. Caps out at twice the starting charge.
2. It can charge it past his starting charge, this is the only way to overcharge it and can be useful to get the most out of his Flame Breath.
3. He can walk while charging if you input a downwards diagonal.
4. He can go back to his normal flame breathing by letting go of down and store the charge by pressing shield.
5. When he reaches a 2.80 charge, he flashes orange three times, shielding anytime after this will store a Fireball.
6. If hit while charging he loses half of what he just charged. Switching between spew and charge modes is a good way to keep safe, but it leaves you open to attack.

(Note, above values are just suggestions, I'm not 100% sure about the numbers)

Fireball is a Aura Sphere-type move that travels at a speed that is slow enough to react to, but not so slow it can be effortlessly avoided. I guess the speed of Mewtwo's fully charged Shadow Ball is good but I'm not completely sure. It deals a upwards and forwards knockback with moderately high damage. It looks like Bowser's SMB1 fireball. He can hold up to 2 fireballs and it has quite noticable startup lag, so it can only be used at a distance of during combos. It kills any projectiles it hits but clanks with any normally clankable attack. (IDK if that's possible though) It's main use is to allow Bowser to approach a little easier without giving it to him whenever he wants. He's quite vulnerable when charging so if you want to stop his fireball, that's when to use it.


Overall, I do not think this technique is overly powerful, but would help him quite a bit against projectile users. Oh, and if you want to say that charging is too free, keep in mind his Fire Breath cannot destroy projectiles and that if he gets hit with so much as a Spacie Lazer or Ninja Needle, he's losing his charge. However, he can shield them so there is t

 

[FakeKraid]

It's hard to say for sure how OP, if at all, that would be. I've already said earlier that I'd sooner see currently OP characters like Lucas, Mewtwo, and Pit nerfed somewhat than have the game undergo power creep.

That said, it's an interesting idea that would expand his ground pressure and edge-guarding potential significantly. My instinct is that it would be unavoidably OP as an option, but that it might be balanced if it replaced his normal zoning Flame Breath move. I wouldn't mind playing around with a dev build that had it, at least.

EDIT: If it were me doing the development I would make it a weak, slow projectile that could be charged not to make it more powerful but to change its trajectory from ground-middle-head level like in Super Mario Bros.

 

[Sai_]

Good point, I just thought that this would be a good replacement for a wavedash. But now that I look back at it it isn't the best idea.

As for why he shouldn't wavedash... He is a 500+ pound Dragon who is so fat attacks don't knock him back in the slightest when he attacks. Why should he be able to use a ground slide GLIDE power? Gliding usuall requires not much weight.

Sorry to break it to ya, but the surface of all stages in this game is practically FRICTIONLESS. This fact can be see by the other fact that characters slide noticeably far when wavedashing. Look at Luigi. It doesn't matter how heavy you are; if there is practically no force of friction, you can theoretically slide forever. The surface is almost frictionless. Then again, this is a game we're talking about where physics is unrealistic. There's no point in mentioning his weight; therefore, I believe he deserves a better wavedash. This is coming from someone who doesn't play as him at all, but I've used his wavedash before at it takes slightly longer to initiate a very short wavedash. His jump frames need to be cut as well.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Sorry to break it to ya, but the surface of all stages in this game is practically FRICTIONLESS. This fact can be see by the other fact that characters slide noticeably far when wavedashing. Look at Luigi. It doesn't matter how heavy you are; if there is practically no force of friction, you can theoretically slide forever. The surface is almost frictionless. Then again, this is a game we're talking about where physics is unrealistic. There's no point in mentioning his weight; therefore, I believe he deserves a better wavedash. This is coming from someone who doesn't play as him at all, but I've used his wavedash before at it takes slightly longer to initiate a very short wavedash. His jump frames need to be cut as well.

Good point, I guess I can't argue with that logic.

 

[FakeKraid]

There's no point in mentioning his weight; therefore, I believe he deserves a better wavedash. This is coming from someone who doesn't play as him at all, but I've used his wavedash before at it takes slightly longer to initiate a very short wavedash. His jump frames need to be cut as well.

Speaking as someone who has played him since Day One of Melee, I don't think he needs a good wavedash. I've never missed it once and I play Spaceys, Samus, and Marth on the side.

 

[Jacob29]

Well all I can say is you haven't played against very good Ness'.

You can't approach Ness on FD if they are clever yes you CAN avoid PK Fire, but if spaced properly it won't matter. You cant easily punish aerial Pk fire as we are so fat and if we jump over his grounded ones he loves beating us on our descent.

Yeah we can wreck his recovery hard HARD, but that requires us to get him off which is easier for him than us.

Edit: after looking at the ness section they ALL agree Bowser has it rough.

 

[FakeKraid]

Well all I can say is you haven't played against very good Ness'.

Actually, it's the opposite - I play fairly often against an extremely high-level technical Ness player who mained the character for six years in Melee before picking him up in PM, so I've kind of gotten acclimated to the MU better than most Bowsers have. I never said it was an easy match; it is unfavorable for Bowser. It's just not as bad as Captain Falcon or Zero Suit, or Link for that matter.

 

[Jacob29]

Yeah it perhaps isn't as bad as ZSS or Link (I haven't played against a competent Falcon main so I dunno what that is like), but it is definitely unfavourable much like many of our matchups.

 

[FakeKraid]

(I haven't played against a competent Falcon main so I dunno what that is like)

Oh Glob, it's a nightmare is what it's like. I play against https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TgHI4IKJj8 the Falcon in that video on a fairly regular basis and he just wrecks me no matter how much I adapt or how carefully I play. It's weird, because Bowser can totally ruin Falcon's day if he gets him over the edge, and can even juggle/tech-chase Falcon really well, but getting that one in on a competent Falcon is nigh-impossible because of his super-safe approaches and high ground and aerial speed. He just buzzes like a fly around you, just out of swatting distance, and the moment you try to do literally anything there he is with a Knee or (if you manage to shield) Knee-to-Gentleman-to-grab, which against Bowser is a pure frame-trap that has no safe response. I once played thirty or so matches back to back against him and won only two, and of those two only one involved no SDs on his part. And he's not that much better than me as a player - I've been playing and playing competitively longer than him and have more characters I'm proficient in. Another Falcon player in our area, Crescent Monkey, isn't even as good as Remo and he's still put me out of three tournaments. I'm probably good enough with Wario now to try taking his Falcon in that MU, so next time I think I'll go that way.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mostly I think Bowser needs the PMBR to actually talk to his players to figure something sane out instead of just moving in total secrecy for no reason. =/