Guide Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings - Match-Ups- Discussing Rosalina, Duck Hunt, and Ness Matchups-

[divade]

I try to be pretty active on here, but I'm just not confident calling out MUs. I know I've played some good falcos, but unless I played them today, I have trouble with the pros/cons.
I am in favor of selecting 3-5 characters for discussion at a time, to narrow the convo, but also allow more people to respond should they not know the current 1 matchup.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I try to be pretty active on here, but I'm just not confident calling out MUs. I know I've played some good falcos, but unless I played them today, I have trouble with the pros/cons.
I am in favor of selecting 3-5 characters for discussion at a time, to narrow the convo, but also allow more people to respond should they not know the current 1 matchup.

That's a good idea. Since there's already been Rosa and Duck Hunt discussion, they'll be included, and I think I'll throw in Ness as well.

So current matchup discussions:

Rosalina

Duck Hunt

Ness

 

[WispBae]

I mentioned in the other MU thread my thoughts on the MU, and @ Splooshi Splashy made a great post about it here, but I'll give a more condensed version, for those who don't want to read a huge block of text. Still, check out Splooshi's post, it's fantastic!

Basically, this MU is slightly in Jr's favor, with the main advantage being better access to KO moves. Both characters can camp (although I think Doggy's is better) and have tools to harass each other safely; Trick Shot for Doggy and Mechakoopa for Jr.

Going aggro is going to be doggy's main strategy to hopefully keep the mechakoopas from being set up. Lots of grabs, gunmen, and pivot clays. Jr will want to mix things up with aggro and conservative, as he excels at both, and can fake out people quite well with the Kart Dash.

As Jr has better KO options, fantastic smashes, and is quite heavy and able to hold rage better, it makes him have a much easier time killing at 120% up, as opposed to doggy's 140% and up.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Don't worry, I know about the Rosalina and Duck Hunt posts on the previous page

 

[divade]

Don't worry, I know about the Rosalina and Duck Hunt posts on the previous page

Yeah I've never messed with a good duck.
I mentioned rosi through commenting on someone's post.
I haven't fought a lot of Ness, but if they bat the Koopa a lot toss a cannonball. Also Usmash is nice since he doesn't have a lot of landing options.

 

[IronLion]

Ohhh I just fought a few Ness today on FG. So far from what I learned during these match ups:I
-Ness's bat is his main tool against our projectiles. However it's not fast like Lucas's stick so if he bats the Mecha Koopa pop out the cannonball. If he swats your cannonball try jumping and shooting out a Mecha Koopa to challenge him or force him to make another move.
-Ness's Aerials are fast and have pretty good range on them. I don't think our Dair beats his Uair I'd avoid being underneath Ness and try to come at him with a Fair due to the disjointed hitbox as it helps us challenge air approaches. I'm unsure if our Uair can beat his Dair but if I'm not mistaken we have the faster frames in that regard.
-His Pk Fire is pretty good at walling the MK but I think we still win in the projectile game.
-Our jab is a good tool against him but I believe Ness's dash attack offers a safe ground approach so it comes into reading what he'll do as far as options.
-Our Koopa Kart mix ups should give us some good mobility but Ness is no slouch and can likely move better than us.
-Offstage if we get hit by his fair which is very fast he'll likely outplay but I think if we force Ness to use Pk thunder we can gimp him with our aerial options or mecha koopa.

Still new to Bowser Jr but these are the options I've used against some of the Ness' today.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I thank you for getting the ball rolling for the Jr VS Ness MU. I've been drafting notes for other MUs featuring some of my other mains, so I've been neglecting this one.

Most Recent Actual Tournament match vid found on YouTube with "Jr VS Ness" search terms sorted by Upload Date for reference, featuring D! (aka Glitch This1) (Skip to 4:45 for the actual match): https://youtu.be/swIu6UNUiJw?t=3m49s

Most High Profile Friendlies set found on YouTube with above settings featuring NAKAT & Tweek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pcCZKm54Pc

Another livestreamed actual tournament match that ends differently than the above examples...: https://youtu.be/1PFjX_Bi7TM?t=4m32s

Batted (aka Reflected) Mechakoopas can be driven right on through with our Side 1, no problem, provided we don't try ramming through his Bat while it's lingering (if we want to do that, we'll need to use Side 3, Grounding Dash). After driving through them, if we can reach Ness after the Bat's gone with our Side B, we can ram him upwards and follow up with many a Jump Cancelled aerial for big damage (the exact aerials in question differ based on opponent percentage).

Cannonballs can be of use for challenging PK Fires & Thunders, but I'd be wary of throwing it out against his Bat if it's charged up enough and you're close to him. It's also handy for edgeguarding him from a distance if you're wanting to play it safe against his PKT2 recovery.

We can definitely UAir shark him, due to our UAir's great disjoint range, counteracting Ness's juggle-breakers like his NAir. Said UAir sharking is more possible after Side 1 ramming and/or we catch him on a platform above us (like at Smashville or Lylat Cruise or Dream Land 64)

Our DTilt can help us challenge Ness's Dash Attack, since our DTilt & our Jab are both 4 frame moves, and DTilt has more horizontal range & lingering time than our Jab.

Default Mechas are nice for blocking off PK Fires, which can allow us inside. Unless you're running Grounding Dash, I would not advise trying to drive through PK Fires.

Our recovery is definitely better than his, especially if we use Side B Jump Cancels to mixup our recovery directions (being able to airdodge after Side B JC-ing is NICE against his PK Thunder).

Speaking of Side B JCs, doing those on-stage is awesome at maneuvering around his Fires & Thunders. We build up great damage with them, and can even KO off of it. Our Side B Jump Cancel Juggles can definitely compete with Ness's Fire --> DThrow --> FAir Train.

Custom Loadouts: We'll probably run one of the following decks: 1121 or 1321 or 1123 or 1323 or 3121 or 3321 or 3123 or 3323
Of these decks, I'd personally run 1323.

Grounding Dash lets us rip through Fires & Thunders and other moves no problem. However, it leaves us vulnerable to grabs if he reads the Side 3.

Meteor Ejection can help us spike Ness, even if he's in the middle of PKT2, due to Up 2's frame 9 super armor.

Big Mechas can stomach Fires & Thunders longer than default, so it can still be picked up by us for a damaging approach option. We can start our deep edgeguards safely with this.

Ness will probably run 2122.

Rising PK Flash is his most usable Neutral B, due to its fast start up in comparison to the other 2 Neutral B moves, as well as the disjointed anti-air ability it offers. His PK Freeze is NOT Lucas's PK Freeze.

Lasting PK Thunder makes his recovery safer, though it loses the KO power that his Up 1 has.

PK Vacuum is simply the most usable of his Down B moves, since the odds of being able to absorb our Mecha's explosions are pretty low.

Stages: Lylat Cruise, IF we're running x3x2, can be a good stage to mess with Ness's recovery. We ourselves will not want to be at Lylat if we're not using x3x2.
We'll want to pick stages that have wide horizontal blast zones to mitigate his Back Throw.
We'll also want to pick other stages that can mess with Ness's recovery.

 

[-Grimm-]

I have lots of experience with the Rosa v BowJ and Ness v BowJ matchups, but since nobody has put out anything about Rosa I figure I'll just stick to that.

Before I explain anything, it's important to note that in the competitive scene, and assuming customs on, you should always be using 1112 for this matchup, emphasis on the x1x2. Down 2 (impatient mechakoopa) is critical in this MU because while the the other 2 down B variants can be stolen and thrown by gravitational pull, it is impossible for her to throw back impatient mech - it instead explodes at her feet if she pulls it in.

As with many MUs against Rosa, the trick is to kill Luma before you do anything else. Surprisingly, unlike some characters, we Junior players actually have a good set of tools for getting rid of the pudgy little star, thanks to our clown kart dash.

Depending on how shield-happy your opponent is, you can very easily drive in and attack the shield with drift - because Luma isn't protected by shield, this can often take it out in one go. If you have an opening to do a koopa kart combo, I've found that side b -> jump -> bair on Luma works at any percent and does well to get some space between Rosa and Luma. In some cases you can also do clown kart to up b and drop the explosion between them.

So what happens if you're unable to kart your way in because you're being pestered by Rosa holding jab or spacing you out with single starbit shot (the preferred side custom for this MU)? This is often where the impatient mech comes in, as it can launch as far or further than Rosa's custom side B. You can even punish the jab-holding with a charged koopa cannon in some cases. Most of the time, however, I tend to approach with a clown kart in the air and approach Rosa (not Luma) with a dair, then focus Luma while she's hit.

The last resort for killing Luma, typically only good if you've knocked Rosa offstage, is side smash. This can consistently launch it offstage from close to center stage at most levels of charge, and if it doesn't it may outright kill it because of damage dealt.

Once you get rid of Luma, the MU is like any other, and Rosa alone has very few ways to get an advantage. Just land your ground techs when fair gimped, mix up your recovery options to avoid getting meteored (going low and just doing abandon ship vs going high, etc), and nail those kart combos while you have the chance

With the right execution, I feel that this MU is slightly in Junior's favor with a ratio of 55:45. I hope this helps anyone having difficulty with the matchup, and of course add on/critique what does or doesn't belong!

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I highly appreciate all the input so far everyone. I myself am unable to play at all due to my internet being at least 0.5 Mbps and lower usually, and I live in the country currently.
I hope to get more experience when I get back to college and have good internet again.

But again, thank you all for giving your very detailed analysis into these matchups.

 

[Dayzin]

Not sure where I can put this but how can you fight against and incredibly campy sonic player. Went to a small tournament yesterday and had to place against one in my second match and the match lasted like 7 mins (forgot to put on timer). Doesn't feel like BowJr has many options against a sonic that's just charging up his spin dash. Tried using mecha koopa but apparently he can just go through them. I had to rely on punishing him and keeping him close.
When I saw a luigi player play against sonic he just held upsmash when the sonic started charging his SD and got a couple kills like that, do we have any options like that?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

My main way of keeping Sonic out is to use my down-tilt (sometimes forward-tilt) when he's trying to spin-to-win.

 

[-Grimm-]

Not sure where I can put this but how can you fight against and incredibly campy sonic player. Went to a small tournament yesterday and had to place against one in my second match and the match lasted like 7 mins (forgot to put on timer). Doesn't feel like BowJr has many options against a sonic that's just charging up his spin dash. Tried using mecha koopa but apparently he can just go through them. I had to rely on punishing him and keeping him close.
When I saw a luigi player play against sonic he just held upsmash when the sonic started charging his SD and got a couple kills like that, do we have any options like that?

As a Luigi secondary, I can confirm that there aren't any SD punishes as good as the loog's up-smash. Luigi has a lot of good out of shield options to use against sonic that bowJ lacks. However, depending on your opponent's jumping spindash habits, you can sometimes land an up-smash out of shield with junior.

Surprisingly, I've found that uncharged cannonballs can work really well against this campier type of player. They expect to punish a full charge but you just tap B and either the slow moving cannonball hits or you can punish with tilts, as Abyssal Lagi said.

I tend to opt for u-tilt or f-tilt rather than d-tilt however, as there's more vertical coverage to hit the potential jumping spindash.

This used to be one of my worst MUs, and one local player consistently beat me by a narrow margin. Best thing against sonic in general is to let them approach, not you, and either clown kart or use short hop IASA fairs to combat their approaches.

 

[Dayzin]

Thank you both for the reply!

The sonic player was pretty jumpy but I think using neutral B along with mechakoopa might work. Though if he does jump and uses his homing attack will my up tilt beat it/clash or does sonic neutral b have more priority?

 

[-Grimm-]

Thank you both for the reply!

The sonic player was pretty jumpy but I think using neutral B along with mechakoopa might work. Though if he does jump and uses his homing attack will my up tilt beat it/clash or does sonic neutral b have more priority?

Up-Tilt does have the power to clash with homing attack, but its hitbox lacks enough coverage directly above junior. A safer option is to just shield the attack and do OoS up air.

I've also found that lots of sonics like doing the homing attack straight into up-b. If you notice your opponent doing that a lot, keep your shield up for the spring and wait to punish their descent with an aerial.

 

[Snailtopus]

Tips and tricks vs Olimar?

 

[divade]

Tips and tricks vs Olimar?

The pikmin grab like any other character, spin the stick and they'll fall off faster. If they are on the cart body, Side-b will hurt them off, if on your face I suggest Ejecting or throwing a smash attack, and while that happens spin the control stick to remove said pikmin.
I've not faced enough to give much other advice.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-bowser-jr.414706/

Hey Jr. mains!

Us at the Charizard boards are discussing the Charizard vs Bowser Jr. Matchup! Come on over and tell us what you think! :D

 

[-Grimm-]

Tips and tricks vs Olimar?

First and foremost, you want to make sure not to get spaced out by his side B. Either stay right up close or outspace him using mk and cannon. Even if cannon doesn't hit, you can easily bait out an unsafe approach with it, then punish with kart combos.

If he tries to approach with a jumping side b, just shield the pikmin - depending on how close he is after, you can punish with an OoS up smash or up B, or a fair/bair if further away.

Up close, use up tilt into either up smash (low %) or air combos (mid-high %), or approach with grounding dair into aerials.

 

[DittoMaster6]

Forgive my lack of being able to be helpful for this discussion, but anyone have any tips for Falco?

Falco's REALLY annoying for me.

 

[-Grimm-]

Forgive my lack of being able to be helpful for this discussion, but anyone have any tips for Falco?

Falco's REALLY annoying for me.

Falco is definitely a pain in the butt to fight, but there are a few ways to get the upper hand.

For the most part, avoid using mechakoopas and cannon, as Falco can easily reflect them with his down B. It's also difficult to do kart dashes on the ground because of Falco's lasers.

One way that I approach is using airborne kart dashes and either landing in front of them to do kart combos or just jump canceling it in midair and landing with dair. You can also approach with instant SH fairs or SH bairs to tack on a bit of extra percent.

The main trick is to keep up close because Falco easily outspaces Jr and wrecks him with the stun from lasers. Work on your perfect shields and your out of shield options, because the lasers, despite being a pain when trying to approach, are super easy to perfect shield and don't damage normal shield too much.

Last, but definitely not least, capitalize on any edgeguarding oportunities. Falco's recovery, to put it in the nicest terms, is highly exploitable. Any of the usual methods work, though I personally prefer either a fast fall weak hit fair, rising dair, or stage spiking with bair. And if your opponent is going for side-b recovery instead of up-b, you can punish the end lag using grab to back-throw (only for onto-stage recoveries) or f-smash (works for punishing both onto-stage and to-ledge recoveries).

Even with these ideas in mind, the matchup is still tedious, but hopefully this will help a bit!

 

[Snailtopus]

I know I shouldn't have much trouble fighting Bowser, but his armored attacks, movement speed, and grab range make it difficult for me to win as BJr. How can BJr best exploit Bowsers weaknesses?

 

[divade]

Fair is my favorite tool against him.
He's also easy to combo once you get a kart hit on him.
its tough to gimp his Recovery with dair, so I'd try to drop a koopa (or eject) on him if the opportunity arises.

 

[Super ninja panda]

Bowser hard machup olimar hard matchup falco annoying. O_O these are bowser jr best match ups not falco he is a 60/40 but still any way I might as well be useful when fighting olimar side B through all the pikmin and stay in his space you'll win. when fighting bowser the way to beat bowser in one word is COMBO. Press down B wait for the reflector and punish accordingly with side B when you get him off stage GO ULTRA HARD MODE EDGE GUARD hope this helps .

 

[Volk3]

I'd like to give my insight on these matchups.

Against falco, as grimm stated, try to learn how to powershiel each laser. sure you might get hit by one or two, but if you shield most of them (when at a distance, because they will use it when at a distance) then its good, if you can learn to powershield all, then thats even better. Also I've found that falco has good priority moves on him and a good falco player will use that to his advantage, try not to challenge those moves (for example, his fair, usmash and uair) and try to airdodge, powershield (and punish after) or just shield them. Going offstage for a gimp against falco is a good way to kill him, but be careful and try not to have to use up b from too far under the stage, because he has a high 2nd jump, sometimes (and will happen by accident or sometimes set up by the falco if you're not careful) he will use the side be to recover on-stage and you will get spiked after you use your up-b.
Take care when trying to gimp him. Falco also has some laggy moves and some moves that dont lagg much (ftilt). Exploit the moves that lagg by spacing with your moves (fair, bair) and try using moves that arent too laggy, so you can punish him more easily if he does. I feel like clown cart dash isnt as useful against falco because he has many ways to stop it (laser, fsmash and dash attack). If falco starts to punish your dash cart often, try to use it only as a bait and fake out tool (jump out of it often) and use fair (space it wel) or bait out an attack adn punish.

Against bowser, (this is usually in general) if you space bowser correctly, you'll notice he cant do too mush, because all of his moves are up-close. Space with fair and bair often and dont challenge his moves too much as they can be damaging and have priority sometimes. space and punish is probably your best way to deal with him, mk when safe because it put pressure on him. If he uses his neutral b to stop your mk, use cannonball, because he also suffers lagg after flames and will likely get hit, if you're close enough (not too close).

Against olimar, I think this is a bit of a hard match-up for bowser jr. A good olimar player will always try to space bowser jr. by using side b and side-smash. his grab outranges yours, so dont try to grab him if he's out of range. You use clown cart dash to dash in if he is using side be often, because you wont stop (unless a purple pikmin is thrown) and you will hit him, after that, follow up with an airial (depending on the %). You will sometimes get some % from the pikmin but after you use your aerial, some pikmin will get shaken off or go. So use side b against him when you get a chance. Also mk is good because it pressure him to act against it. If he tries to grab it punish with grab or dash attack or clown cart. If he tries to jump, use fair.

 

[xDizxy]

Any tips for the mu? He's very annoying to fight as jr. His tjolt renders kart dash useless. We're combo food for him. The only good thing we got is that we are heavy and Pikachu is very light.Toon link too. I can handle link fine but toon link pulls out his projectiles much faster. Also does suffer more from rushdown characters like and or projectile characters like and

 

[-Grimm-]

Any tips for the mu? He's very annoying to fight as jr. His tjolt renders kart dash useless. We're combo food for him. The only good thing we got is that we are heavy and Pikachu is very light.Toon link too. I can handle link fine but toon link pulls out his projectiles much faster. Also does suffer more from rushdown characters like and or projectile characters like and

I'm a Jr/Pika dual main, so I know a fair amount about how these two deal with each other. First off, I should add a disclaimer - if you're playing against a good pika, you're far better off using your secondary instead, because this matchup is pretty brutal. But just a few tips if you do decide to play it out:

Pika is, as most people know, a combo-heavy character. If you get hit, you're getting hit for 20+ damage most times. This is especially true for Jr due to his weight and lack of effective OoS options. Pika will approach from far away using t-jolts (which, with the help of power shielding, shouldn't pose too much of an issue). Be wary with your shield though - don't hold the button for anything that isn't a powershield, because they will quickly punish with a grab. You can also just opt to space out the pika with MKs if this happens, because while fighting them from afar isn't ideal, it's better than close-quarters.
From close up, most pikas approach with either SH dair, SH fair, SHFFL fair, or dash grab depending on the situation. Because of the previously mentioned lack of OoS options, the last two are very hard to punish. Your best bet is to either kart away, do OoS fade-back fair, or even OoS nair. The first two can actually be hit using OoS up smash, which is unexpected and effective. Make sure to activate this after the hitboxes of the aerials are no longer active though - pikas fair is multihit and lasts deceptively long.
Lastly, just in general you want to play this MU around how much the player uses t-jolt. If you only see a few, capitalize with the kart combos. If there's a constant onslaught of jolts, I tend to opt for SH IASA fair primarily. Wall of pain, somewhat like melee jiggs.

I hope my input helps a little! About your other question, the type of character isn't really the problem but more so the character themselves. Sonic (rushdown) is a pretty annoying MU, but Falcon is one of Jr's best high tier MU's by far. In general, I'd say projectile characters are much harder though.

Tl;dr: Try to avoid using Jr against Pika if you can. Jr is worse against projectile characters in general.

 

[xDizxy]

I'm a Jr/Pika dual main, so I know a fair amount about how these two deal with each other. First off, I should add a disclaimer - if you're playing against a good pika, you're far better off using your secondary instead, because this matchup is pretty brutal. But just a few tips if you do decide to play it out:

Pika is, as most people know, a combo-heavy character. If you get hit, you're getting hit for 20+ damage most times. This is especially true for Jr due to his weight and lack of effective OoS options. Pika will approach from far away using t-jolts (which, with the help of power shielding, shouldn't pose too much of an issue). Be wary with your shield though - don't hold the button for anything that isn't a powershield, because they will quickly punish with a grab. You can also just opt to space out the pika with MKs if this happens, because while fighting them from afar isn't ideal, it's better than close-quarters.
From close up, most pikas approach with either SH dair, SH fair, SHFFL fair, or dash grab depending on the situation. Because of the previously mentioned lack of OoS options, the last two are very hard to punish. Your best bet is to either kart away, do OoS fade-back fair, or even OoS nair. The first two can actually be hit using OoS up smash, which is unexpected and effective. Make sure to activate this after the hitboxes of the aerials are no longer active though - pikas fair is multihit and lasts deceptively long.
Lastly, just in general you want to play this MU around how much the player uses t-jolt. If you only see a few, capitalize with the kart combos. If there's a constant onslaught of jolts, I tend to opt for SH IASA fair primarily. Wall of pain, somewhat like melee jiggs.

I hope my input helps a little! About your other question, the type of character isn't really the problem but more so the character themselves. Sonic (rushdown) is a pretty annoying MU, but Falcon is one of Jr's best high tier MU's by far. In general, I'd say projectile characters are much harder though.

Tl;dr: Try to avoid using Jr against Pika if you can. Jr is worse against projectile characters in general.

Yeah you're right. I'll just use or . Thanks for the info.

 

[shrooby]

We're discussing the Joonyah MU in the DDD forum if anyone has input:

http://smashboards.com/threads/read...rently-discussing-bowser-jr-9-23-9-28.395045/

Anything to add from the other side would be appreciated~

 

[DonutsKy]

I've been a main since launch. One of my best friends (and the one I've played the most with) is a main since launch. Therefore, I'll tell you everything I've absorbed from that MU. NOTE: while reading my analysis, it is important to take into consideration that we're both at a similar level, with him having a slight advantage over me (he's always been more apt at video games). Also, we are not, by any means, top players. Which means that some of the things I'll mention could be avoided by someone who is better at the game.

With that said, I'll just be blunt here: Ness destroys BowJow. For starters, Ness has the sufficient amount of tools to make our beloved Side-B virtually useless. His fair, bair and nair are safe enough to prevent us from actually connecting a combo out of Side B. If we charge towards him, a simple fair/bair is enough to do the work. If they shield, nair out of shield and its done. Also, PK fire makes it hard for us to approach. It stops the mechakoopa (and destroys it). If it hits Jr., it is hard for him to DI out of it since he's a heavyweight.

Being a heavy weight, Jr. is very susceptible to Ness's infamous Down Throw to Fair combos. While I can DI out of it if Ness doesn't jump properly, he can easily connect 3-4 fairs, and at times continue the combo. Jr is just too big. Ness can side-smash our mecha-koopa and have it against us. Also, NEVER use Neutral B. Even if its already a bad move, don't you even dare to use it against Ness. His bat can reflect projectiles (and they hit harder).

When you're off-stage, please try to recover as high as possible, which means that you should not recur to your up b unless it is absolutely necessary. This one can be applied against any character, given than any soft hit won't make Jr. recover his clown-kart (resulting in a lost stock). Nevertheless, I am making an emphasis with Ness because he can easily gimp you with his Up-B (the tail of the PK Thunder), eliminating the chances of getting hit with Junior's hammer out of Up-B.

With that said, it is not entirely impossible to beat Ness. As I mentioned before, I am almost as good as he is, and yet I've managed to beat him with Bjr. plenty of times. The key for success against Ness is to play with his mind. Set him traps with the mecha and condition him to make mistakes. You can get a punish or a grab depending on how he reacts once the Mecha is out (PK fire has a noticeable ending-lag, and shielding can guarantee you a grab given that you position yourself correctly. Also, you refrain from using Side-B unless you're making a punish. Ultimately, our biggest chance is once Ness is offstage. Yes, his aerials have a greater priority, but if you pressure him correctly he might resort to his PK Thunder in order to recover. That's the chance to send him off. You can also try to cancel his Pk Thunder by throwing a Mecha, although it kinda hard to achieve this. Be extremely careful tho, because if he hits you with Pk Thunder 2 (when PK Thunder hits Ness) you're dead.

That's roughly it. Feel free to correct me or add stuff I may have missed!

 

[xDizxy]

Man I wish this thread was more active.

 

[divade]

I'd comment more but I don't know enough of the set. I feel the OP should have enough info for rosi or ness though.

 

[DittoMaster6]

I'd comment more, but I can't really contribute much in the way of matchups and how to deal with them. I'm not that great at Smash, so it's often hard for me to tell if Jr is just good against a certain character, my enemy is just stupid, or if I just got lucky. Vice versa if I'm the one that loses. And even if I can tell, and it's because Jr is good/bad against a certain character, it's often difficult for me to remember why long enough for me to come on here and contribute.


....And now I feel useless.

 

[aircaves]

I haven't faced enough of these three to comment deeply on this matchup either I wish we could just move to another matchup

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Man I wish this thread was more active.

I'd talk about mus in depth but people have posted tons of info that runs perfectly opposite of what is actually known and understood about bjr and his mus at this point. It seems like itd be too much of a hassle trying to correct everything tbh.

Ie; pikachu isn't "pretty brutal" for bjr, its arguably his easiest high tier mu.

 

[-Grimm-]

I'd talk about mus in depth but people have posted tons of info that runs perfectly opposite of what is actually known and understood about bjr and his mus at this point. It seems like itd be too much of a hassle trying to correct everything tbh.

Ie; pikachu isn't "pretty brutal" for bjr, its arguably his easiest high tier mu.

I don't know how bad the Pikachu's are in your region, but coming from a region that has multiple solid Pikachu's as top PR (as well as being a Pika/Jr main myself), I can tell you that Pika is not Jr's best high tier mu. Pika can destroy Jr so easily and we have no consistent ways to break out from the combos, not to mention too few counters to QA.

Easiest high tier mu's would probably be more accurately Falcon, Ness (arguable, but usually not too bad), and Metaknight.

I understand that you are a high ranking Jr in your region, as I've seen you talk about it in other posts, so I respect your opinion. But Jr simply doesn't have the tools, nor the opportune weight class, to make a favorable mu against Pika.

 

[Blanc]

I don't know how bad the Pikachu's are in your region, but coming from a region that has multiple solid Pikachu's as top PR (as well as being a Pika/Jr main myself), I can tell you that Pika is not Jr's best high tier mu. Pika can destroy Jr so easily and we have no consistent ways to break out from the combos, not to mention too few counters to QA.

Easiest high tier mu's would probably be more accurately Falcon, Ness (arguable, but usually not too bad), and Metaknight.

I understand that you are a high ranking Jr in your region, as I've seen you talk about it in other posts, so I respect your opinion. But Jr simply doesn't have the tools, nor the opportune weight class, to make a favorable mu against Pika.

bro thats just wrong, me and nash both have solid pikas in our scenes and its not as bad as you'd think

 

[xDizxy]

I wish I can go to tourneys but you know how parents are :/

 

[aircaves]

bro thats just wrong, me and nash both have solid pikas in our scenes and its not as bad as you'd think

I'm not experienced with the pikachu matchup at all so I'm curious why you guys don't think it's that bad. do you ind elaborating?

 

[xDizxy]

I'm not experienced with the pikachu matchup at all so I'm curious why you guys don't think it's that bad. do you ind elaborating?

Depends on the person. Tjolt stops kart dash not to mention bowser jr is combo food for pikachu. Don't see many pikachu online tbh.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I don't know how bad the Pikachu's are in your region, but coming from a region that has multiple solid Pikachu's as top PR (as well as being a Pika/Jr main myself), I can tell you that Pika is not Jr's best high tier mu. Pika can destroy Jr so easily and we have no consistent ways to break out from the combos, not to mention too few counters to QA.

Easiest high tier mu's would probably be more accurately Falcon, Ness (arguable, but usually not too bad), and Metaknight.

I understand that you are a high ranking Jr in your region, as I've seen you talk about it in other posts, so I respect your opinion. But Jr simply doesn't have the tools, nor the opportune weight class, to make a favorable mu against Pika.

Ness is actually very bad for BJr, Falcon and MK are probably 50/50. People like to bring up the fact you can easily gimp ness as an argument for the mu not being bad, but it's hard to edgeguard when you lose neutral 99% of the time.

And there are a TON of counters to QA. It honestly just comes down to understanding how Pika's hurtbox warps during the animation. All of BJr's tilts as well as holding jab 1 do wonders against pikachu trying to approach with QA. And Tjolt stops side b approaches but Mechakoopa stops Tjolt so you hav options to mix up your approach. MKs also stop QA so there's that as well.

Being combo food doesn't matter when your combos don't lead into kill confirms. So what if you get hit with a bunch of uptilts and uairs? Pikachu's damage output is sporadic and heavily weighted to racking at low %s. By that same logic, Pikachu is combo food for BJr because if you get the ability to start a string at 0% Pikachu should probably eat 30-40% minimum. Pika has good smash attacks but the fact remains that when a Pika is going for kill options they become extremely telegraphed. BJr on the other hand has about 6-7 moves that can kill Pika at 100%+. Pika has to play smarter to get the confirm than BJr does.

Pika's biggest strength in the MU is exploiting BJr's predictable recovery, but the fact QA extends pika's hurtbox means BJr can edgeguard as well (though to a lesser extent). It's easy to drop up B's while Pikachu is recovering and your timing doesn't need to be very precise.

Pikachu wins 55:45 or maybe a soft 60:40 at the very best. BJr definitely has an uphill battle but it's not that rough.