Bowser and the ledge

[Zigsta]

One of the biggest things that sucks about Bowser is his options from the ledge. A lot of characters can do a halfway decent to terribly good job at trapping us on the ledge.

And yet I see a LOT of players--myself included--run to the ledge after killing an opponent, even if it's a MU where you're almost guaranteed to take damage just by putting yourself in a position that exposes one of Bowser's character flaws.

I'd like to do the following:

-Break down all the characters in the game and rate them on a scale of 1-4 as to how good they are at trapping Bowser on the ledge. This would also include notable things to watch out for, ie Olimar can grab a planking Bowser.

-Post what characters can do to us if they shield our getup attack, ie GW can fsmash us GUARANTEED.

Getting to the ledge often puts us in a horrible position. I'd like to both teach other Bowsers and learn from other Bowsers WHY the ledge sucks for us and how to get around it.

I'll post my thoughts more about different characters later this week. Just wanted to get this posted because it's been on my mind for a while, and I haven't gotten around to it.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

There is a strict distance Bowser's opponents can be that will keep them safe from Bowser's offensive options coming up, while allowing them to be close enough to reliably punish any attempts Bowser makes to return to the stage.

This distance is most easily judged on Battlefield. Notice that under the two platforms closest to the ledges on this stage, there is a ring-like pattern on the floor underneath them. When a character stands in the middle of this ring, or in a specific position that doesn't allow their model to overlap the layer closer to the ledge, they are safe from Bowser's offensive options returning to the stage, including ledge jump Fair, rising Klaw, and get-up attack. The sad part is, get-up attack whiffs the ring, meaning there is no need for the opponent to shield or attempt a Powershield, and the moves animation is so disgustingly long that punishment is guaranteed. The exceptions to this are FTilt, FSmash, and Flame Breath; these moves hit up to, or past the ring, however they are undesirable because they are unsafe, and they are unsafe because - on top of being terrible moves - you must first set up in order to even try to use them, by getting up on to the stage somehow. Needless to say, by the time Bowser makes his attempt to get on to the stage just to try and throw these moves out, your opponent is aware of your movements, and will endeavor to intercept them.

While other stages don't have a ring on the floor for measurement, those who know the matchup will learn the distance, and there are likely alternative graphical patterns - albeit less obvious patterns -on other stages that can be used to judge that distance.

Tinier characters are the usual culprits of abusing this strict distance, as their models allow them to comfortably sit in the very middle of the actual ring pattern, and provided their idle or crouch animations don't push them over the layer, they can simply stand or crouch there and wait for you, no rush. Diddy Kong, Olimar, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Kirby, I suppose Mr. Game & Watch and Ice Climbers to an extent; characters like these are the first to take advantage of the ring pattern and subconsciously learn the perfect distance themselves, making them impossible to get past, once they are aware.
Characters with wider models have a harder time getting the distance down, as they are too big to actually sit inside the ring itself, and must adjust their positioning accordingly, which is much stricter for that particular character; R.O.B, Dedede, opposing Bowser, characters like these have a harder time learning the distance for themselves. Nevertheless, the option is available to them, and should they learn their particular distances they to will reap the benefits. Characters with long range, safe attacks, who benefit from these kinds of strict positions are among the worst offenders; Marth in particular, has a fine enough model, and the options to not only intercept Bowser's attempts at returning to the stage, but also deliver optimal punishment. Tippered attacks, to be precise.

There is no safe way past this. The safest thing Bowser can do is jump up from the ledge. Don't bother throwing out Fair or any other move, it's pointless. On a stage like Battlefield it's easier to turn to this, as the platforms may provide enough of a barrier to stop you from getting punished really hard. However, on a stage such as Final Destination, with no platforms to fall back on, there is absolutely nothing Bowser can do, and he is trapped. Wow, this character is miserably atrocious.

 

[Flayl]

Never use getup attack at 100%

If opponent is far from the ledge: ledge hop airdodge into shield, jab/klaw them if they run into you

If opponent is close to the ledge: ledge hop klaw/FAir them

if opponent is in the troublesome zone you can try repeatedly grabbing the ledge (or just hanging there if the opponent doesn't have a long reaching low hitbox) to make them impatient and force them into the other scenarios, or plain jump onto a platform if available

 

[B!squick]

You're all forgetting Bowser's ultimate ledge option: Rising Fortress. This is perfect if your opponent thinks he'll get a free attack. However, it is important to mix it up with other options, though this is the truth of pretty much everything concerning Bowser.

 

[Zigsta]

Sorry guys, I haven't had time to do this lately. I've been working on promoting both Immortals and Anonymous on campus on top of my usual homework. Most of my time on SWF has been devoted to hyping HoM 3 and leading the Bowser panel for MU Chart v2.0.

I DID find out, though, that Snake has a guaranteed uptilt on us if he shields our getup attack (both of them).

Once my next paycheck comes in, I'm gonna buy a cheap used Wii on Craigslist so I can test stuff.

 

[Flayl]

The direction Zigsta is taking this thread in (concerning ledge attacks) is silly. Let me show you why:

Character | Hitbox out | Duration | Frame advantage
Bowser | 8 | 62 | -37
Meta Knight | 25 | 63 | -22
Diddy Kong | 28 | 63 | -19
Snake | 25 | 63 | -22
Falco | 25 | 62 | -21
Marth | 25 | 62 | -20
Wario | 31 | 63 | -15
Ice Climbers | 27, 32 | 62 | -20
Olimar | 17 | 63 | -29
Pikachu | 22 | 61 | -22

The frame advantage can be off by a frame. It also assumes the opponent stops pressing shield during shield stun (slower players will add on some frames).

This tells us something we already know: Anybody using a ledge attack, no matter the percentage, can be heavily punished if the opponent predicts it/sits in their shield. The advantage of Bowser's ledge attack is that it allows him to catch the opponent offguard immediately after grabbing the ledge (after being pushed off the stage by a laggy attack for example).

It would be far more useful for Bowser mains to figure out what ledge options we could cover with FSmash, FAir (and DownB when over 100%) on reaction.

 

[Zigsta]

OK, I'm dumb. XD

 

[Flayl]

Nah, it's just you were putting effort into something that's not unique to Bowser.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Do you have a link to all that frame data?

 

[Flayl]

Nope, tested it myself.