Krynxe
I can't pronounce it either
Don't need to play puff to post here 
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Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread
- Thread starter Krynxe
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
<---------------- evidence.zip
pokemongeof
Smash Lord
To tell u the truth, I have no idea how he was SOO accurate!
I better tell Hungrybox bout this
I better tell Hungrybox bout this
Anand
Smash Journeyman
I rollout to the edge now and then in friendlies when I'm too impatient to jump back normally, but it's really easy to deal with. If Jigglypuff hits the opponent, it's over for Jigglypuff. And if you hit an opponent with an aerial rollout, they go up, not sideways, so usually they can DI to survive (until very high percents). For example, Falcon can just jump out and try to intercept with a knee, uair, or bair, and if Falcon gets hit, that's a free kill on Jigglypuff anyway.
username12345678
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2010
- Messages
- 156
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Last edited:
AppleAppleAZ
Smash Journeyman
He's gotta beat PP first, but beating mango is a huge accomplishment especially after getting dominated the set prior.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Fixed .
False, I saw that triple rest Bones.
Bones0
Smash Legend
That was my Falco. I'm just that good at shining people.
Mahone
Smash Champion
went to syphers for the first time and u werent there....
Bones0
Smash Legend
You should have messaged me. I was planning on going, but I had to work at 5 AM Saturday morning and couldn't fall asleep so I just ended up pulling an all-nighter. : |
Mahone
Smash Champion
its ok, im pretty sure im going to xanadu this weekend
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
So what do you guys do when you have a Falco slapping your **** off with his broken-ass aerials? I played a Falco last Friday and did ok in the neutral game, but the second he got that first hit, it was literally over for me.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Focus on SDIing shines. Falco has to hard read which way you are DIing with their waveshine in order to even reach you, and even if they read you they won't be able to dair you into another shine or utilt. I try to face Puffs when they are grounded so I can use dair/grab/lasers, and when they are airborne I try to face away and utilize utilt/bair. Don't get messed up by lasers, and do your best to keep Falco facing you when you are at his head height or higher. Being grounded when he's not facing you isn't awful, but definitely not as safe as being airborne when he is facing you. I get wrecked the most when it feels like the Puff is playing similar to a Peach that is just float camping. Just look for opportunities to hit his beak. Hbox does this vs. PP quite often. He will time a FH through spacing lasers and pound right at his head. Worst case scenario, Falco reacts with a shield and gets a jump shine WL into aerial, or just an aerial OoS. As long as you DI the punish, you've only taken a bit of % and maybe lost a bit of stage control. Best case scenario, you get a knockdown, and you are at the perfect height to tech chase. I'm not saying go spam FH pound when they are trying to laser you, but FH pound and FH AC nair are the types of attacks that seem to get in vs. me the most because the only way to defend against them is shield or be facing backwards (which means I can't laser you and you are free to approach lower).
Random idea: Someone see what happens when you FH and pound in the opposite direction. Maybe that could further emulate Peach's float if you FH but don't want to go in yet. So, like, you see them turn around and don't want to pound/AC nair into a bair/utilt, so you let them whiff and then come in with a bair right after that they will at least trade with if they don't shield it. The pound away would probably also work as a bait, at least vs. players who don't know Puff very well. So they may try to jump up and aerial you and they just get baired in the face. Most importantly, I think this will give you access to bair when the opponent was not in the mentality to avoid it (because you were facing forwards just a split second ago). We all, at least subconsciously, take note of which way people are facing when they leave the ground because that let's us evaluate their options. Puff's ability to turn around in the air is unmatched, so I think reverse pounding to position yourself and turn around or even just doing a quick DJ backwards to turn around could be really useful. Maybe Puffs already do the DJ one without thinking about it, idk.
Also making sure you attempt trades any time Falco goes for an aerial is really annoying. There's nothing worse for Falco then getting his 50% pillar combo interrupted because Puff traded way up in the air forcing Falco to land back on the ground and then try to hit a weaving Puff. At higher percents, Falcos will be actively worried about trying to hit you because they know you are constantly looking for trades from their FH. They'll try and bait whiffed trade attempts from you in an effort to get a clean hit without risking getting faired/baired off the stage.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Huh, I thought trades were supposed to be always bad for Puff. Are they good/ok against Falco because his recovery is bad, or are they more like a necessary evil to break his combos? And what should I generally focus on after I SDI his shines, do I try to get back to center stage most of the time or go offstage and try to recover most of the time?
Also, how far should I be weaving out and landing vs. Falco? I'm pretty new to Puff and still experimenting with distances. Closer than 1 SHL distance felt really unsafe even with CC and got me fsmashed a couple times. Between 1 SHL distance and 2 SHL distance away seems like the best choice on paper but in-game it felt like I was giving up punish opportunities. Further than 2 SHL distance felt like I was going too far and giving up stage control. Mahone's guide talked about how wd back -> grab is my friend, sooo ... does that mean try to space myself so that a SHL would put him right in my grill? Or should I just, like, never land anywhere near him at all and try to get airborne again as soon as I touch the ground? I know it sounds weird, but when I practice against CPUs, they just walk towards me and it psychs me the **** out. I can wall the CPUs just fine, but I don't have a clue how I'm supposed to deal with that if a human (like, a Marth) does that to me, it just doesn't seem like bair wall would work so well against humans.
Response to random idea: I feel like the dj turnaround -> immediate nair/bair (so Puff doesn't visibly inflate too much--obviously, wait the 4 frames so the turnaround isn't canceled by the bair) is a way better option than the reverse pound. Not sure if you meant vs. Falco specifically, but I can just see a Fox wavedashing in and sneaking in a shine or usmash on reaction vs. reverse pound because you can't DI during pound.
EDIT: Also, thanks for the help. I'll try to put these into practice next time I run into a Falco.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I mean, I hate trading with Puff most of the time because Puff doesn't get knocked down and I do, so unless she's at a higher percent it means I lose stage positioning (that whole Puff thing where you can't roll in because you'll get rested, so you roll to the edge and are now cornered... GREAT). It's true you don't just want to tank with trades all game, but when the alternative is get comboed for even longer, you might as well try to trade if there's no other way to avoid the move. After you SDI the shine, you just have to get down how you would from any other attack. I'm not very good at recovering with Puff. I usually just pound to the center of the stage as high as possible, then try to weave my way down (I haven't played any opponents who are actually able to continue a juggle vs. Puff though). I also suck horribly at getting of the ledge, mostly because I am impatient I guess (less out of actual impatience, and more from my years of playing Falco where he can't dawdle trying to get off the ledge or else you're guaranteed to die).
Idk how to space with Puff either. I just WD every time I land 'cause no one expects Puff to do that. lol Like you can land with a spaced bair and WD back to make them whiff, or if they're playing kinda campy you can land with a spaced bair and WD towards them and immediately rising bair and they get caught off guard by how close you got. That's the extent of my spacing game with her unfortunately.
Yeah, I was definitely thinking of specifically vs. Falco when I mentioned reverse pound, though I think it could work vs. other characters. Obviously doing that vs. Fox is a bad idea because he's way faster and his FH is the perfect height to hit Puff after 1 FH or 2 quick jumps. Idk why you mentioned shine or usmash because I would think Puff would be too high off the ground if she did a FH reverse pound (especially if she angled it up, which was what I was thinking but didn't mention).
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Went and watched some HBox vs. PP vids. When HBox gets hit real hard or comboed by PP, he definitely seems to favor DI offstage and then recover. He mixes up going for the ledge and going high above center stage, but tends to favor the ledge. Maybe PP is just good and most Falcos can't punish the center stage weaving down option.
He also lands his aerials really close to PP, like, so close it scares me. But he usually keeps his distance unless he has PP's back. I guess I should just stop being scrubby and learn to react or some ****.
With regards to reverse pound, I guess I was thinking SH reverse pound for some reason.
He also lands his aerials really close to PP, like, so close it scares me. But he usually keeps his distance unless he has PP's back. I guess I should just stop being scrubby and learn to react or some ****.
With regards to reverse pound, I guess I was thinking SH reverse pound for some reason.
pokemongeof
Smash Lord
WHY DID HBOX LOSE THE CHOICE BAND?
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
He was in training, he took it off and he's gunning for the crown.
Bieber
Smash Apprentice
this is a terrible idea. falco's jump and bair are both broken, floating around aimlessly without ever getting close to him allows him complete stage control to work you over with his bair whenever he feels like it. against falcos that play the matchup right (read: pp and everyone who tries to emulate him), you need to be up in falco's **** if you ever want to win the matchup. defensive falco can wall 1000x better than puff so don't even try to beat him that way. you need to find a way in between his wall of lasers and stuff (good wd oos's and falling nairs both help a lot with this, he can't threaten you with bair/utilt and lasers at the same time so watch which way he's facing and try to find ways around his immediate defensive options) and be in his face so you can force him into one of the following situations: be in shield, jump above you, commit to a bad move/laser whose lag you can punish (falco's dair is especially easy to bait and punish because of its limited range), or give up center stage to run to the edge. falco's options are limited drastically in any of those scenarios and puff can cover all of them. half of being good at this matchup is being able to get him into those situations, the other half is being able to consistently set up and execute simple 3-4 piece combos to take his stock once you get him there
against falcos who don't play the mu right just wavedash back lol
Mahone
Smash Champion
hey, for once i can give really clear and useful answers, i think thats mostly due to you asking your questions in a really detailed and clear way, so THUMBS UP on that one
you actually want to mix in EMPTY landing JUST outside of falco's shine range, especially on fd, you would not believe how good this is in the mu... it would be nice if you could get a friend to just shine while you try to land outside and grab him. This is almost necessary because cpus don't shine so its hard to get the spacing except though human practice. This might be obvious but remember to get him to try to shine you as you land, not just hold shine while u drop down and land since the shine's hitbox is much bigger right as you do it and thats what ur trying to outspace...
maybe BONES0 can post a gif of the shine animation cuz that would help a lot but i don't know where to find those types of things
I tried to get any other puff to write the mu guide for falco since i think its my 2nd worst mu (of the common ones like top 8) so don't think too much about what i wrote... i normally go back every 6 months or so and update my ideas in the mu chart since i get better but i don't think ive done that with falco although i probably have a lot of new views on the mu... anyway the point im trying to make is that ur better off asking specific questions and drawing your own conclusions from hbox-pp sets than looking at my mu guide for that particular character
whenever you are not going in for the empty hop (which is something you shouldn't force and will come up once the falco gets out of position or uncomfortable because you have conditioned him with the tactic im about to explain) you should be doing what bones said and trying to hit his head (or beak lol) with full hop nairs and AGAIN weaving out to right outside of shine range....
just think about it this way, what moves can he possible do to you if u do a nair on his head and weave out to outside of shine range? you either A. hit his head or B. he shielded it
A- youve hit him and will have the advantage which will differ depending on his percent. Of course at high percents you will knock him down, but at most low percents they will cc shine because this always works at low-midlevel play... falco's will default to shining because they've been conditioned to use shine as a get out of jail free card by the 99% of the community that don't ever punish them for it, or more precisely, punish them 40 percent of the time and get completely reversed 60 percent of the time (im looking at you, marth player who overlaps during tech chasing and gets spotdodge-shine comboed)
We'll get into those low percents where they will be able to cc fsmash as u talked about after this
B- he's in shield and now youre just outside of shine range, what are his options out of shield? he might shine oos because of the reasons in part A. I don't see the shine at all here, its probably more obvious in this situation to falco that itll miss since they already planned to shield and are just watching u weave... and the reward is lower for an aerial shine, also itll be slower i guess than a cc shine, idk, tons of reason, but it isn't common and regardless ull be ready for it. His other options are roll IN (which he won't want to do into jiggs, and if he does, great, look for it and rest it), rolling back (very common) and wding back. Those are the ones u can start to look for and punish, but to be honest, if u do the nair at the right spacing and timing and and just grab quickly right when u land, you WILL get the grab often because its fast
Ok, so at super low percents, maybe less than 20 idk, he can cc and then fmash u or do some other move before you can land and shield or grab or whatever, at these percents... SIMPLY DO NOT LAND, for this time on each stock, your goal is just to get him out of this percent range, usually but doing bairs and JUMPING after you tip one and staying in the air, but whatever it is, just poke and float away and come back and poke, then once ccing is out of the question u can move onto this air-> ground stuff...
OH, i should point out, this is actually a great time for those empty hop grabs, as some/most falcos, will get consumed and obsessed with the idea of ccing anything you do and starting a shine combo or fsmashing you... they will think they are being so clever, almost letting you get close to them, and thats when just empty land grab. The way i talk about this it might seem like u do this 10 times a match, but i do this about 3 times a set, because its more of a secret weapon. It is VERY RARE that someone di's this type of grab throw, and as an added bonus, the nature of this situation means they are at super low percents, which is when that upthrow rest is going to hurt the most.... you just want to use this sparingly when you have conditioned well or when u can tell they are already deciding to cc you before even looking at what ur doing.
and i guess one caveat is pound EATS through cc which is really awesome and can really destory people (even pp) since they get knocked over by it at SUPER low percents (maybe 0 if its not true cc? idk BONES0 can tell us), and ofc they are surprised... miss the tech... and well................................................. u know the rest
OK, MOVING ON. What else, i lose this mu mostly because i get comboed for 80 each time im touched so i won't give any advice on that...
hbox DIing offstage and going to the edge mostly is a player vs player thing. On the one hand, not DIing offstage is bad as you obviously risk getting comboed longer and ending up offstage anyway, but i think DIing offstage can be argued to be worse in general, but vs all falcos currently, they will not pressure you offstage and give you the ledge for free 99% of the time...
PP however pressures me offstage very well and hard predicts the ledge and gets strong punishes... i am not as good as hbox so i thought it was just me being bad, which ofc is a large part of it, but i also realized pp is more comfortable grinding hbox out from on stage and getting solid hits in
before u say this is me just being cocky or not understanding hbox's recovery, i will link a match where i saw pp do the stuff he tends to do vs me and again, i think he only did this because he was "feeling himself" or whatever the kids call it nowadays, but it shows what COULD happen if people trained this kind of edgeguarding more with falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=T7PRFznCO9g#t=962s
the 2 edgeguards back to back are so good because you are killing puff at low percents on dreamland... but whatever, back in the real world, DIing offstage and recovering to the ledge will work, so u can just do that FOR NOW
Now for the bad news, a lot of this advice is not going to work at the highest level at all, just as wd back doesn't work at the mid-high level nearly as well... the HIGH LEVEL is a wondrous world of buffering, sding, ledge bouncing (idk what its formal name is), etc.
Realistically, this doesn't matter too much, since the falco's in that world are mango's, pp's, and.... thats it.
But i think one issue and one reason it does matter a lot in some sense is because the vids u watch for inspiration come from pretty much only this HIGH LEVEL world, so a lot of the advice you can get might seem wrong because you don't see hbox do it...
well, i would say that all the people at that level know all this stuff and it informs their decisions and they are constantly playing around these options... a quick example is that hbox WILL weave out of shine range, however pp won't shine because he knows better, so before i told you about all of this, you probably watched hbox vs pp and didn't notice what hbox's spacing really was, u just knew it was "good" cuz he doesn't get hit as much as you but u don't know why he chose to weave out X or Y amount in a certain situation... and remember that if for a SECOND, he decides not to weave out fully, pp WILL react and shine him, so its still essential to know all of this stuff. Once you get to the point where u can beat all but lets say the top level and maybe a few high level falcos, then you can start to discuss other stuff, but i think thats a waste of time at this point, and trust me, once you get to that point and ARE that good, you will be in the habit of coming up with your own solutions and will be able to figure out a lot by yourself
i dunno if it was necessary to write any of that stuff, but it is to late now... i cant go back. Ok im done
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
"just think about it this way, what moves can he possible do to you if u do a nair on his head and weave out to outside of shine range?"
Falco has an uptilt.
Falco has an uptilt.
Mahone
Smash Champion
im sorry, i should have clarified, this whole thing about hitting his head/beak is assuming he is facing forward and lasering you as you are in air... then you come down in between lasers as bones said and nair him
if he is just standing there uptilting and ac short hop bairing, you are going to not want to challenge him in any vertical way, i usually try to then get super horizontal and hit bairs
also i was referring to after you hit the nair anyway... my point being that cc shine is soooooo strong for falco you always have to space around it
if he is just standing there uptilting and ac short hop bairing, you are going to not want to challenge him in any vertical way, i usually try to then get super horizontal and hit bairs
also i was referring to after you hit the nair anyway... my point being that cc shine is soooooo strong for falco you always have to space around it
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
You answered most of my questions, thanks. I had literally never seen the pound approach until Bones0 posted about it, and then the first HBox - PP vid I pulled up, he used it like 5 times. The numbers Falco's CC % really helped, that's one of those things that I know in the back of my head but always forget when I'm actually playing ...
So it's like, stay airborne and **** him in the beak until he can't CC anymore, then train him to shield and start ******* his oos options. Weave out just enough to not get counter-******.
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I guess one more thing is I'd still like to know how to deal with a character who just walks at me. I understand that not many humans play like this, but I happen to know a Marth that does. I usually try to stay just outside his range to bait him into swinging so I can punish, or else try to shield or CC just inside his range, but I still end up getting pushed to the edge of the stage because I'm scared that trying to straight-up bair him will get me tippered. I dunno, maybe I'm doing everything right, but it just feels like Marth has a big advantage and I can never win unless he ****s up.
Mahone
Smash Champion
wow u summed up the mu really concisely, maybe mu guides are overrated since that says most of what u need to know
please don't look at my abysmal percents, they are probably like 200% off on average, and i just pulled that number out of nowhere as well, so...
this is where we need the autistic puff player or whoever to come in and give the hard digits, but it never hurts to just experiment and find them out urself
also, i added more to my post and u might wanna reread it cuz i kept editing it and adding more...
in the future ill probably just wait til its done cuz that was a pretty stupid idea
please don't look at my abysmal percents, they are probably like 200% off on average, and i just pulled that number out of nowhere as well, so...
this is where we need the autistic puff player or whoever to come in and give the hard digits, but it never hurts to just experiment and find them out urself
also, i added more to my post and u might wanna reread it cuz i kept editing it and adding more...
in the future ill probably just wait til its done cuz that was a pretty stupid idea
Bones0
Smash Legend
The good news for Puffs is Falco's shine, unlike Fox's, has an almost unusable hitbox in front of him. As a Falco, I would probably opt for early faded dair OoS or even shield grab before I try to shine OoS. My shine OoS game is kinda weak overall though, so maybe that's a personal tendency. Either way, Falco's shine image is actually bigger than the hitbox in the front, so basically as long as you aren't touching him you should be safe as long as you don't grab until after the first frame of shine.
HERE is a vid of Mahone using a lot of the empty hop stuff vs. some awful Falco player in game 1. Also, pound apparently knocks over at least as early as 18% if they are not CCing. He does 3 good pounds in game 2.
HERE is a vid of Mahone using a lot of the empty hop stuff vs. some awful Falco player in game 1. Also, pound apparently knocks over at least as early as 18% if they are not CCing. He does 3 good pounds in game 2.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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Ah okay. Glad you clarified.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Bones, I'm so jealous. I'm a janitor in my day job, and even I can't scrub up flat surfaces that well.
Trolling aside, thanks for all the advice, guys. I have finals and graduation coming up, so I don't know when I'll be able to put any of these great tips into practice, but I'll let you guys know how it goes, hopefully with some vids.
EDIT: Also, I don't think MU guides are useless, since apparently a Puff needs to be good (i.e., much better than me) to see anything except d!ck jokes in my "summary" of the Falco MU.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Idea gave me the same advice about coming down on his head but with fair. Generally helped out my game though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Play 3-5 games without any bair at all, and take note of when your brain tells you to bair. Then start adding it back in gradually to see which situations it's good and which situations you were using it in just for the sake of bairing.
I could try that if I were to actually able to play.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
that set you linked was really good. gonna slow mo it later thanks.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Ok, I just played a few matches with some friends of mine (casual players), and holy ****, landing right outside the range of their bull**** and then grabbing or reacting to what they do is BROKEN. None of them play Falco, but it works on Sheik, Peach, Falcon, and Ganon. Boot them in the face enough times and they'll eventually just shield when they see you floating towards them, and that's when you just space the landing and BAM! I really needed to see inside my opponent's head to figure that out, that even if they aren't shielding now, jump towards them and they'll shield.
Also, my casual friends now hate me for sleeping on them by sleeping on them.
Also, my casual friends now hate me for sleeping on them by sleeping on them.
Kadano
Magical Express
Did you guys know you can always rest Marth’s AC nair unless he does a backward sh?
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Lol love that. Jiggs run animation makes it hilarious
Mahone
Smash Champion
thats awesomeDid you guys know you can always rest Marth’s AC nair unless he does a backward sh?