Attack Of The Clones: A Primer On Clones And Smash

[Xinc]

I haven't really played Fire Emblem, but is Marth always this much of a sexist nimrod?

Not at all.

 

[MonkeyArms]

*watches the video* oooooooook theeeeeen....

 

[The 0ne]

Thanks for the information, but I had to pause the video too many times because of all the words on the screen at once.

 

[allison]

That picture is so beautiful.

Dark Pit as Anakin Skywalker is extremely accurate.

 

[Uffe]

Fox and Wolf have nothing in common outside their specials, and even that is just theme.

Fox and Wolf both hit the opponent with their knees when they pummel, their back aerial is a back kick, and their up smash is a flip kick. Aside from those and the specials, they're unique enough to be their own characters. I don't have issues with semi-clones. There will be characters that share similar attacks. Take Mario and Falcon's up aerial. They do a bicycle kick of some sort, but overall, they've got enough differences to make them unique.

 

[ilikesquids]

Smash even has it's own unique term for the way clones change between releases of sequels called "Luigification" referring to how Luigi started as a full clone of Mario in Smash 64 but has been decloned in each additional installment. !

"It's" should be "its." This is the neuter possessive pronoun and not the contraction of "it is."

 

[90007000]

What the hell is that? IF ITS MY BOY ROY IM KILLING YOU!

 

[darkrailink1 (dl1)]

Clone characters have been a part of fighting games since the original Street Fighter games with Ryu and Ken, but what exactly are they? While there is no standard definition for a clone, most define a clone in a fighting game as a character with a moveset and physics that are considerably similar to another character. Characters like Marth and Roy or Fox and Falco in Melee would qualify to most as a clone. For characters that are very similar but have some notable differences, they are subbed as semi-clones. Ness and Lucas in Brawl share somewhat similar specials but they interact differently and they do not share many normal moves so to most they are semi-clone

Many characters share similar moves but are not clones as well, in Smash 64 Captain Falcon and Samus share neutral aerials, down smashes, floor attacks, forward tilts, up tilts, and dash attacks, but have their own unique physics and moves as well to a point where they are not considered to be semi-clones.

Smash even has it's own unique term for the way clones change between releases of sequels called "Luigification" referring to how Luigi started as a full clone of Mario in Smash 64 but has been decloned in each additional installment. Several clones have been "Luigified" over the franchise as well like Ganondorf and Falco.

Want to know more about the clones in Smash 4? YouTuber Smash and Grab has released a video to explain how the clones work, the difference between clones and palette swaps, and more. The video has a similar style to Smash and Grab's previous Robin Guide which is fun and unique, so check it out!

Hopefully all of this will help create a better understanding of clones especially within the Smash series. With Lucas on the way as DLC for Smash 4 it will be interesting to see if any other clones or semi-clones find their way into Smash in the future.

SmashCapps found it interesting studying clone characters in Smash for this article and is interested to hear what people think of clons. Follow him on Twitter to discuss clone characters and anything else related to Smash!

toon links not a clone

 

[Murlough]

What the hell is that? IF ITS MY BOY ROY IM KILLING YOU!

That escalated quickly.

 

[Monk of MaZe]

I probably wouldn't have stopped to read this if not for the artwork

 

[rp17000]

Dark Pit as Anakin Skywalker is extremely accurate.

Dark Pit is actually Obi-wan in the picture. Ganondorf is Anakin.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

The information was good.

But they made Male Robin a creep and Marth an absolute prick...

What the heck?

I haven't really played Fire Emblem, but is Marth always this much of a sexist nimrod?

(In short Marth's seen a bland in his games, so people prefer touching up his personality in ways the like.)

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Fox and Wolf both hit the opponent with their knees when they pummel, their back aerial is a back kick, and their up smash is a flip kick. Aside from those and the specials, they're unique enough to be their own characters. I don't have issues with semi-clones. There will be characters that share similar attacks. Take Mario and Falcon's up aerial. They do a bicycle kick of some sort, but overall, they've got enough differences to make them unique.

Wolf doesn't have a back kick he did a weird kick thing upwards making an harrumph noise unless you are talking about Project M Wolf which I don't play so I wouldn't know. His upsmash had different properties than Fox's upsmash.

 

[Digital Hazard]

I came here just to laugh at clone haters comments.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

Robin X Robin. My new OTP.

 

[Uffe]

Wolf doesn't have a back kick he did a weird kick thing upwards making an harrumph noise unless you are talking about Project M Wolf which I don't play so I wouldn't know. His upsmash had different properties than Fox's upsmash.

I may be wrong about Wolf's bair. I haven't played Brawl in a long time. I don't take properties into account, otherwise I would say Marth and Lucina aren't clones.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I always used the clones more than I ever used the originals anyways.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

I may be wrong about Wolf's bair. I haven't played Brawl in a long time. I don't take properties into account, otherwise I would say Marth and Lucina aren't clones.

Lol I made a mistake I meant Upsmash is different they both have very similar back airs.

 

[Xermo]

Ness/Lucas
uair
d-throw

Everything else about them are different in comparison.

uair and d-throw differ far too greatly. It's like saying falcon has the same uair and d-throw as mario.

 

[Uffe]

uair and d-throw differ far too greatly. It's like saying falcon has the same uair and d-throw as mario.

Not really. If I recall correctly, Lucas' d-throw animation had him do multiple hits while he himself had his legs apart and hands pointing down the middle, just like Ness' d-throw. Same with uair.

 

[Vipermoon]

They got the Dairs for Marth and Lucina wrong. Frames 9, 10, 12, and 13 both have a the "sour" hits but on those same frames Marth has tippers. The Dair spike is not a tipper, so you can't say Lucina has a tipper Dair. Frame 11 is the meteor, it hits on the entire blade and is the only hitbox on that frame. For some reason though, Marth's Dair spike still does more damage than Lucy's.

 

[Xermo]

Not really. If I recall correctly, Lucas' d-throw animation had him do multiple hits while he himself had his legs apart and hands pointing down the middle, just like Ness' d-throw. Same with uair.

You would indeed recall incorrectly. Lucas d-throw isn't multi-hit. He buries the opponent in the ground, single hit. The hands thing you're thinking about is the motion of him lifting and slamming the opponent into the ground.

Uair is a headbutt like ness's, yes, but functionally his has far weaker kill power and a different angle (as well as animation for that matter). Hence the comparison to falcon and mario whose uair are both backflip kicks.

 

[Tino]

I've always preferred Lucina over Marth and Dark Pit over Pit. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Fox and Wolf both hit the opponent with their knees when they pummel, their back aerial is a back kick, and their up smash is a flip kick. Aside from those and the specials, they're unique enough to be their own characters. I don't have issues with semi-clones. There will be characters that share similar attacks. Take Mario and Falcon's up aerial. They do a bicycle kick of some sort, but overall, they've got enough differences to make them unique.

I don't remember about Wolf's Pummel, but aside from Reflector he shares no other moves with Fox. Their Usmashes are actually different; Fox does a frontal somersault kick while Wolf flips towards the screen and closes his legs from both sides in an scissor fashion movement.
Their Bairs are different as well, Fox uses a single foot kick with a slightly downwards curved angle while Wolf uses both legs in a straight horizontal way.
Same with the Blasters, whereas Fox's is a long thin laser beam that fires quickly while Wolf's is a slower but stronger burst of energy.

 

[Uffe]

You would indeed recall incorrectly. Lucas d-throw isn't multi-hit. He buries the opponent in the ground, single hit. The hands thing you're thinking about is the motion of him lifting and slamming the opponent into the ground.

Uair is a headbutt like ness's, yes, but functionally his has far weaker kill power and a different angle (as well as animation for that matter). Hence the comparison to falcon and mario whose uair are both backflip kicks.

Alright, I'll take your word for it. I still think the uair is very close to Ness. Not going to take strength and weaknesses of any attacks into consideration. For some reason, I was thinking Mario and Falcon uses both legs with their uair.

I don't remember about Wolf's Pummel, but aside from Reflector he shares no other moves with Fox. Their Usmashes are actually different; Fox does a frontal somersault kick while Wolf flips towards the screen and closes his legs from both sides in an scissor fashion movement.
Their Bairs are different as well, Fox uses a single foot kick with a slightly downwards curved angle while Wolf uses both legs in a straight horizontal way.
Same with the Blasters, whereas Fox's is a long thin laser beam that fires quickly while Wolf's is a slower but stronger burst of energy.

I'm going off what I remember. I no longer have Brawl on me and the last I played it was in 2009. Thanks for going into detail. As for the Blaster, I know that the appearance is different, as well as the attributes (which again, I don't take into account, or we could say Marth and Lucina aren't actually clones), so that's why I mentioned the Blaster being the same in terms of comprehensive movesets. Their B special is a laser. I guess a really good way of looking at it is by comparing Mario's fireballs to Dr. Mario's pills.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I haven't really played Fire Emblem, but is Marth always this much of a sexist nimrod?

... what? Marth? Sexist? where? how?

 

[MapleWooD]

Fox and Wolf both hit the opponent with their knees when they pummel, their back aerial is a back kick, and their up smash is a flip kick. Aside from those and the specials, they're unique enough to be their own characters. I don't have issues with semi-clones. There will be characters that share similar attacks. Take Mario and Falcon's up aerial. They do a bicycle kick of some sort, but overall, they've got enough differences to make them unique.

I think you meant to compare Fox and Falco because Wolf has a different Up Smash, bair and pummel.

 

[Uffe]

I think you meant to compare Fox and Falco because Wolf has a different Up Smash, bair and pummel.

Nope. I meant Fox and Wolf. This has already been refuted by a previous poster, though, so forget what I wrote earlier.

 

[Shadic]

I don't remember about Wolf's Pummel, but aside from Reflector he shares no other moves with Fox. Their Usmashes are actually different; Fox does a frontal somersault kick while Wolf flips towards the screen and closes his legs from both sides in an scissor fashion movement.
Their Bairs are different as well, Fox uses a single foot kick with a slightly downwards curved angle while Wolf uses both legs in a straight horizontal way.
Same with the Blasters, whereas Fox's is a long thin laser beam that fires quickly while Wolf's is a slower but stronger burst of energy.

From a development stand-point, Wolf is a semi-clone. Frame 1 of his idle animation actually matches Fox's exactly, allowing them to reuse a bunch of common animations between the two. (Luigi even recycles a ton of Mario's animations in Brawl in a somewhat similar manner.)

Heck, him and Falco even have Fox's name in their internal files for their final smashes.

 

[pupNapoleon]

C'mon more clones ("semi")
C'mon Dixie!

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

From a development stand-point, Wolf is a semi-clone. Frame 1 of his idle animation actually matches Fox's exactly, allowing them to reuse a bunch of common animations between the two. (Luigi even recycles a ton of Mario's animations in Brawl in a somewhat similar manner.)

Heck, him and Falco even have Fox's name in their internal files for their final smashes.

Even so, in the end pretty much most of their moves have a different animation, behavior and properties.
Wolf is still a semi, true, though I think that calling him a derivative fits better.

 

[Casval]

I think clones are actually very important to Smash bros. They sometimes offer alternatives to characters who require a specific play style or they fill gaping voids in the roster quickly and easily.

Lucina and Marth are an interesting case, though, because they really only have one main difference, and it's a very subtle one. But it has huge practical ramifications. They feel the same, but they don't play the same.

They play generally the same because of their identical movesets, but to call it identical would be a stretch.

Anyone who plays both Marth and Lucina will tell you that the spacing games for the both of them are worlds apart. You cannot play Marth like you would Lucina, because you would be a very terrible Marth. You could play Lucina like Marth, but you'd be inefficient.

Even fighting them is a completely different game. With Marth, you can get up in his face and rush him down and just take his sour hits. Of course, that's made difficult by the Marth in question trying to space properly.

There is no such range to give you the same exact hand-to-hand advantage against Lucina, since she doesn't have a sourspot.

The difference between them is minute - but they're just so different.

And that's important for people who have different styles of play. Were it not for Lucina, I would not have Marth's moveset available to me in any form, since I'm not good enough with Marth to land all those tippers.

 

[MapleWooD]

whatever *****

Thing about clones is that, if they're too different or not different enough, one just feels obsolete. Such is the case with the game's full clones and even some semi-clones. What I love are characters like Wolf who, although very different, are just as effective.

 

[ViridianViridi]

Well, if you want to know where most of the clones came from, then you can blame Japan.

The Japanese fanbase which is probably nowhere near as bad as the English fanbase makes a large majority of the roster decisions. One example is the infamous Dark Pit, while despised in English-speaking countries, is quite popular in Japan.

That's not to say that Sakurai doesn't listen to the Western base. Sonic was a highly requested character in the west, way more so than in Japan. And he got in.


TL;DR If someone you like doesn't get in, the Japanese fanbase is probably responisble

 

[Casval]

Thing about clones is that, if they're too different or not different enough, one just feels obsolete. Such is the case with the game's full clones and even some semi-clones. What I love are characters like Wolf who, although very different, are just as effective.

I really don't get what you're trying to say. Clones are obsolete if they're too similar, and they're obsolete if they're too different? I fail to see the obsolescence of a character whose fundamentals are entirely different from their source character but can still perform similarly well. Like Melee Fox and Falco had the same moves, as well as Mario and Doc, Link and Young Link, and Pikachu and Pichu, but they all behaved different.

I think people pick on Marth and Lucina particularly because this style of cloning is a step back to how certain characters were cloned in Melee rather than the cloning style that came with Brawl in Wolf and Lucas.

Wolf was my favorite clone because he tackled the other side of the issue that I mentioned in my previous post, that he filled a spot in the roster that was completely empty. Despite being based on Fox, no other character played quite like him.

 

[SmashShadow]

Wolf is the least clone-like of the semi-clones.
Falco is the most clone-like of the semi-clones.
Toon Link is the least clone-like of the clones.
Dark Pit is the most clone-like of the clones.

 

[Smasher-LTIMT]

Clones and Semi-clones are fun to play as ^-^ Ganondorf, Luigi, and Dark Pit being some of my favs :D

 

[MapleWooD]

I really don't get what you're trying to say. Clones are obsolete if they're too similar, and they're obsolete if they're too different? I fail to see the obsolescence of a character whose fundamentals are entirely different from their source character but can still perform similarly well. Like Melee Fox and Falco had the same moves, as well as Mario and Doc, Link and Young Link, and Pikachu and Pichu, but they all behaved different.

I think people pick on Marth and Lucina particularly because this style of cloning is a step back to how certain characters were cloned in Melee rather than the cloning style that came with Brawl in Wolf and Lucas.

Wolf was my favorite clone because he tackled the other side of the issue that I mentioned in my previous post, that he filled a spot in the roster that was completely empty. Despite being based on Fox, no other character played quite like him.

I mea like, if they are very similar but have the smallest difference, like Marth and Lucina, the other just flat out sucks. As far as being too different goes, think like Ganondorf and Cpt. Falcon.

 

[Casval]

I mea like, if they are very similar but have the smallest difference, like Marth and Lucina, the other just flat out sucks. As far as being too different goes, think like Ganondorf and Cpt. Falcon.

I can definitely understand that viewpoint, but I can't wholeheartedly agree with it. I feel like Lucina only "flat out sucks" for people who try to play her like Marth.

I play her like Roy though. And she's better than Roy, I feel.

 

[JRC LSS]

I don't consider Ganondorf a clone at all, even in Melee. When I think of a clone, I think of two reasons why: 1. They have a similar moveset 2. They have a connection in there game series. Mario & Dr. Mario? Basically the same guy in the games. Pit & Dark Pit? Dark Pit's a straight up clone in KIU. Marth & Lucina? As stated in Sakurai's post about Lucina from a LONG time back, "Her physical ablilites are identical to Marth's--it must be in her D.N.A." Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're family. But Captain Falcon & Ganondorf? No connection. At all.

But that's not what the word clone means in this context. Ganondorf's moveset is CLEARLY based on that of Captain falcon, and we need a word for characters that are like that. That's where the word "clone" comes in. If they're based on the same character, but several of their moves are different, then it's a semi-clone .