Air Dodge Appears to have an FAF that occurs prior to the Auto-Cancel Window

[Epok]

This actually might be close to something I came across a couple weeks ago. I noticed if you hold shield while you're in the middle of an aerial(like mario's nair) , you can buffer a roll or dodge pretty fast on most low lag aerials.
Has anyone one else come across this, because I use it a lot now.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

G&W can perform this Tech:

 

[Sleek Media]

This completely destroys the balance of the game in favor of twitchy rushdown characters yet again. Hopefully they patch this exploit out. I was enjoying actually having to THINK about my recoveries and attacks (and my opponent having to do the same).

 

[Shaya]

You must be one of the only people out there with that logical deduction for it.

How is using any action after your air dodge before you touch the ground something that destroys the balance of the game? How is it not blatantly obvious it was intended and not an exploit? It favours some characters more than others, that will be the case for just about every discovery of natural game mechanics. Force air dodges closer to the ground so the opponent can not use any other move so they're forced to have 22 frames of lag...

 

[Sleek Media]

Correction: I am one of the only people on this board with that conclusion. There are two reasons for that. First, someone pays me big money to write and fix software for a living. That means I am professionally paid to identify things like this as glitches every day. Second, I'm not a hypercompetitive little snot looking for a mechanical edge over opponents who are too skillful for me to beat normally.

There is no way to ask this nicely, but I have to: are you stupid? Is there anything I could possibly say that would make you understand that this is a glitch by definition of the word, and that it is obviously unintended because it contradicts and overrides an immediately obvious major mechanical change from previous games? Do you actually believe that this game was balanced with the assumption in mind that we would find some obscure landing lag cancel, and that we would commit the tiny frame window of input to muscle memory, which is even slightly different for some characters? I guess Sakurai thought: "This will be a great advanced technique for players to learn. Except Link players. I'll make sure he and only he must use a special for it to work!". Did it ever occur to you that 13 characters cannot execute a short hop air dodge without incurring landing lag for a reason (Shiek, Falco, Captain, Ness, etc)? What do you think the process is for planning and developing a complex piece of software like this? I want to know your "logic" for thinking that this exploit is in the design doc.

 

[Shaya]

*sigh* This is going to be a fun relationship. I'm a software engineer, not like it matters. And I know how this game is programmed, as it's the same engine specifics as previous games (and if it isn't I'd eat my hat).

Here's some air dodge frame data, I'll base things off of this

invincibility begins on frame 2
invincibility ends on frame 23
can act again on frame 30

Your IASA (or FAF) or whatever, is frame 30, meaning you can take any action on frame 31. Including another air dodge, a special move, an aerial, a jump. Anything (that's valid in the air).
Meanwhile, a separate flag that exists for all aerial actions is known as the auto-cancel flag. This is a flag for any animation that states that you will stop (or start) incurring this animation's designated landing lag from this frame onwards, otherwise you will be dealt with a normal landing (this is 4 frames). Usually, this is the same frame of the IASA at the latest, or otherwise earlier.
In this game, the auto-cancel flag starts frame 1 of the air dodge, and lasts until (rough guesses, but seeing as I can short hop air dodge and land as Marth without lag) frame 40. Meaning that if you land any time in the 10 frames after you can act you will incur the air dodge landing lag (22 frames).

Every time you start another animation in the air, the auto-cancel flag will be reset. This has been like this in at least Brawl and this is the case here. A lot of aerials in this game have the auto cancel flag enabled the moment you start the animation of an aerial, the other common case is that it is enabled only the frame of the attack coming out, meaning that characters with these specifically programmed moves are "chosen" by Sakurai. Otherwise, characters can opt to start another move that has less landing lag than the air dodge and can deal with that instead.
Nothing I've said is accidental. When we start getting the dumped data files of character air dodges it will literally have a script as such:

1: Auto Cancel Flag Disabled
2: Invincibility Flag Enabled
23: Invincibility Flag Disabled
30: IASA
40: Auto Cancel Flag Enabled

and there was specific instances in Brawl that characters had this post-animation auto cancel flags (Meta Knight's up air, Donkey Kong's back air). There's no indication that something as paramount and likely individually programmed into 51's characters air dodge animation data was an exploit or not done by design.

What's the logic for this choice? Seems obvious... get rid of mindlessly air dodging into the ground, why does the auto cancel frame happen after the move ends? I really could only guess; personally I wouldn't mind it getting patched so the IASA matched the auto cancel (i.e. 40 frame air dodge). Considering that the auto cancel flag was NEVER disabled for air dodges in Brawl, it's a HUGE mechanic change. How is it some unintended bug that players can act when the game tells them they can act?

Either way or otherwise, try to be more careful about your ignorance in the future...

 

[Sleek Media]

Haha well at least you explained how you completely missed the point. Like I said, there's no possible way to explain something as simple as a textbook definition to someone who is willfully ignorant.

Don't get me wrong. I encourage you to waste your time digging into this and any other glitches that turn up. The sooner you guys popularize the exploit, the sooner it will get fixed. Keep at it.

 

[BSL]

That's golden

 

[infomon]

It is not a glitch and it will never be patched. It's just using the moves of the game the way they were intended. That you can use it to land on the ground better is just a fun use of the mechanic, but the mechanic is not going to change, as that would have much wider impacts on the gameplay, and is working as designed.

 

[Sleek Media]

Haha keep dreaming.

 

[isaiah :)]

I think i understand this mechanic and how some of the characters i use have it. but is it being used in the meta today at a high level?

 

[bc1910]

Every character in the game has this mechanic. It's just most useful on those with autocancel frames at the beginning of their aerials.

It's being used at high level but hasn't "killed the game" as people were saying. The dodge itself still has 22 frames of landing lag which is ultimately more important at high level. This tech is mostly used by a few select characters who can laglessly SHAD with it. Actually should I even call this tech? It's literally just how the game works lmao

 

[isaiah :)]

id assume the autocancel could promote more precise play? but overall its a cool like thing to know

 

[Shaya]

There aren't that many characters who SHAD and actually land with lag.

Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon and Falco are ones I'm aware of who do.
These characters tend to not currently use SHADs in their game play.

Only Fox out of those characters cannot act before touching the ground. They can input jump or input an aerial that will negate their air dodge landing lag.
Fox however can do nothing, he just falls too fast.

 

[bc1910]

I think there's about 13 characters who land with lag. So yeah, a minority. You can add Greninja to that list. I think Diddy and Ganondorf as well but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[erico9001]

Huh? Why was this bumped? Well, er, it's useful I guess? I kind of think it's common knowledge now, isn't it?

 

[Flamecircle]

Why does no one use this? It feel useful as a safe neutral option. I find use in jumping in and grabbing, or jumping in an u-tilting.

 

[Shaya]

Certain characters do use it. Marth/Lucina do for sure, they can air dodge and get any aerial out before they land (fair, nair, uair, bair and dair) and it's one of their means of approaching.
It's paramount to them fighting Megaman for example.