Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[PIMPSLAP]

Wait, are you being sarcastic? Cause you know its hard to read sarcasm >_>

Cause really all those you said are. Yeah, your being sarcastic aren't you?

omg omg another tails fan freakin awesome and you play jiggy more freakin awesome lol on the topic the head hop seems to kill some l-canceling pottential i mean probally will hurt drill shine and pillar just my opinion. though

 

[jdub03]

I honestly dont see why they would take out wavedashing. Im sure the creators know that the hardcore fans of ssbm is what kept it popular. Alienating them would ultimately hurt sales.

 

[psicicle]

heh of course. Maybe I should've said Z-cancelling to make it clearer but I already said SHFFL

 

[maxpower1227]

I honestly dont see why they would take out wavedashing. Im sure the creators know that the hardcore fans of ssbm is what kept it popular. Alienating them would ultimately hurt sales.

I'm pretty sure this game will sell insanely well either way.

 

[Adi]

The question is whether a large tournament scene will arise after it's release, which really helps to promote a game.

 

[Takeshi245]

The question is whether a large tournament scene will arise after it's release, which really helps to promote a game.

From what I've read, there's suppose to be a tournament on December 8th somewhere.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

There will most likely be one to promote the game and also give away alot of random nintendo goods and off course a first place. The problem will probally be held in Japan in New York, and that sucks ....

 

[Jet_Kirby]

About advanced techniques: (back on subject, lol)
Whats been on my mind for a while, and someone else has probably said this already but, regardless of if they do or do not eliminate wavedashing L-canceling, etc. from brawl, people will always find new techniques that are a semi-"glitch" in the games system, meaning that they do not affect gameplay the way a normal glitch does but it is probably not the way the game was meant to be played. I'm pretty sure the developers didnt make melee with wavedashing in mind.

Thatz all for now folks, Kirby out

 

[psicicle]

About advanced techniques: (back on subject, lol)
Whats been on my mind for a while, and someone else has probably said this already but, regardless of if they do or do not eliminate wavedashing L-canceling, etc. from brawl, people will always find new techniques that are a semi-"glitch" in the games system, meaning that they do not affect gameplay the way a normal glitch does but it is probably not the way the game was meant to be played. I'm pretty sure the developers didnt make melee with wavedashing in mind.

Thatz all for now folks, Kirby out

Thats what a lot of people say but it could happen that there are no other techs. Whether there are or not is larglely a measure of luck.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If L cancelling is removed, this game is gonna be crap. Theres no denying that. Wavedashing can go, its not that important in the grand scheme of things, L cancelling being gone would be like taking the super combo guage out of streetfighter 3rd strike, except everyone would be 2x as slow.

 

[Adi]

Yeah removing L-cancelling would the equivalent of removing combos, not to mention it's been around since 64 so I doubt they'll remove it.

 

[dizzy]

Why do people think l-canceling is absolutely crucial? Removing l-canceling wouldn't be the same thing as removing combos, especially if aerial attacks were designed with less landing lag to begin with. Honestly, think about it for like two seconds. If Melee didn't have l-canceling, but all aerials had half their current landing lag, the game's advanced strategies would be exactly the same. The difference would be one less button press.

I agree that in all likelihood, l-canceling will return in Brawl, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't.

 

[Team Giza]

Why do people think l-canceling is absolutely crucial? Removing l-canceling wouldn't be the same thing as removing combos, especially if aerial attacks were designed with less landing lag to begin with. Honestly, think about it for like two seconds. If Melee didn't have l-canceling, but all aerials had half their current landing lag, the game's advanced strategies would be exactly the same. The difference would be one less button press.

I agree that in all likelihood, l-canceling will return in Brawl, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't.

It would get rid of some of the unique defense mix ups. L-canceling has decently strict timing, if you mess up the opponents aerial movement and they hit the trigger to early or too late causing them to miss the l-cancel. The timing changes depending on hitting a normal shield, light shield, hitting a crouch canceling opponent and just missing due to a spot dodge. If you out due your opponent by using these defensive mix ups, you can push their missed L-cancel. This unique mix up game added a lot of depth to melee.

 

[kirby_fox]

Wavedashing = glitch

IMO...

in other words- I have a preorder for Brawl. And I'll be content if there isn't any at all.

I assure you though, without it there are many things you will still do that will be "advanced" more so than beginners. Take short hopping for example, unless they knew it was there they wouldn't be able to do it and pull the moves off.

 

[psicicle]

if arial attacks have the same lag as they do in melee, then l cancelling should be in. If they had half lag anyway then it wouldn't matter as much as if dashdancing and pivoting were taken out.

 

[iMichael]

I'll buy Brawl regardless of wavedashing being in it.

I'm with this guy the whole way...who cares about wavedashing? that doesnt make the game...I've been a fan of Sakurai since Day 1!...and by far...none of his creations, games blow......so for the people who are going to boycott it because it doesnt have wavedashing in it...go right ahead...its not going to change it lol

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Lol people saying things like:

"I'm not buying Brawl if WD isn't in it! Haha! I win!"

I don't think they realize that Brawl isn't Melee, and if they don't buy it, good. Everyone else will be on this forum talking about it, millions of people will be playing it. I'll be inviting my friends around all the time, we'll all have a fantastic time! Sakurai will make a hell load of money, it'll probably be the biggest sell Wii game so far, maybe even ever.

And they'll be sitting at home, with their 3 friends playing Melee, trying make it seem like they've got the better deal, being all defensive when people talk about how good Brawl is.

So for all you people who what Melee 2.0, don't be upset when you realise it's actually Brawl.

 

[psicicle]

lol just because brawl isn't melee doesn't mean wavedashing should not be in, nor does it mean that the game would have been better with it in if it were not in.

By the same justification you gave I could say that I would get the game if shields were removed. Hey, it isn't melee right?

Nobody here knows how good brawl will be in terms of it's depth in comparison to melee. If it turns out that one tactic is unbannable and hopelessly overpowered, I will say that melee was better. If it turns out that the game is really slow and not fun, then I will say that melee is better. For now I reserve my judgement for obvious reasons.

 

[Sir James]

If advanced techniques such as wavedashing and l-canceling are kept in Brawl (which is a high possibility), I believe that Sakurai may try to eliminate the need to use such techniques. I have a feeling that the landing lag and roll animations will be much shorter.

 

[PIT_IS_BACK]

I think one would be, not throwing your wiimote into your TV...wait..thats all of the wii games lol

 

[Falco&Victory]

Saying taking WDing out of Brawl will make it suddenlt uncompetitive is like saying SSB64 isn't competitive. If you don't think SSB64 was competitive at all, then you're stupid also...

Brawl has a better frame rate then SSB
Brawl has better graphics, more characters and (it looks like) faster gameplay
Characters have more moves/throws in Brawl
Brawl is awesome

So you can at least count on the game being more competitive than SSB64, and that's all I need. I will miss my SSBM crew though(even if we never got the chance to go to a real tourney)

 

[red stone]

as long as jumping and di are in the game, you have enough advance techs for a competetive game

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I don't think any advanced techniques will be in brawl. We might see them as a way to better ourselves, but the rest of the world see them as glitches we're abusing to give us an unfair advantage.

With the Wii's update system, all "glitches" will be removed. Just like they do with the Xbox 360.

 

[Chromeless]

Saying taking WDing out of Brawl will make it suddenlt uncompetitive is like saying SSB64 isn't competitive. If you don't think SSB64 was competitive at all, then you're stupid also...

Brawl has a better frame rate then SSB
Brawl has better graphics, more characters and (it looks like) faster gameplay
Characters have more moves/throws in Brawl
Brawl is awesome

So you can at least count on the game being more competitive than SSB64, and that's all I need. I will miss my SSBM crew though(even if we never got the chance to go to a real tourney)

I don't think the argument is that the game will be completly uncompetitive, but rather that wavedashing adds a huge number of strategic options that would otherwise not be possible. I mean given the amount of frames it takes to get out of blockstun most of your defensive options leave you unmobile and the gameplay ends up being fairly static for lack of a better term. Wavedashing allows you to space yourself properly without being stuck on the spot and 'cleans up' many matches by allowing this spacing to occur.

I really doubt that team Sora will take wavedashing out completly, they know how much the technique adds to the game and by properly incorperating it into brawl nobody looses, the advanced players get to keep the technique and the new players will be able to assign a button press to it and won't be able to complain about it being an 'exploit'.

 

[Chromeless]

If L cancelling is removed, this game is gonna be crap. Theres no denying that. Wavedashing can go, its not that important in the grand scheme of things, L cancelling being gone would be like taking the super combo guage out of streetfighter 3rd strike, except everyone would be 2x as slow.

In my honest opinion taking super combos out of street fighter would be one of the best things that could happen...*plays hyper fighting*

Anyway, what wavedashing adds to the dynamics of the game is irreplacable by anything that isn't similar to it, L-canceling could honestly be replaced by far more interesting and less redundent technical abilities as long as airial lag is half by default.

 

[Team Giza]

if arial attacks have the same lag as they do in melee, then l cancelling should be in. If they had half lag anyway then it wouldn't matter as much as if dashdancing and pivoting were taken out.

No. You missed the point. Getting rid of L-canceling would get rid of a large chunk of the unique defense mix up game. L-canceling has decently strict timing, if you mess up the opponents aerial movement and they hit the trigger too early or too late it causes them to miss the l-cancel. The timing changes depending on hitting a normal shield, light shield, hitting a crouch canceling opponent and just missing due to a spot dodge. If you out due your opponent by using these defensive mix ups, you can push their missed L-cancel. This unique mix up game added a lot of depth to melee. So just by halving all the lag time is not gonna make the game have the same depth.

 

[psicicle]

Yeah true, but to be honest, that sort of opportunity happens so rarely for me that it is usually not the purpose of what I am doing. I posted before with that viewpoint, but I don't think forcing missed l cancels are too feasible with anybody but say mario. Most of the time when I miss an l cancel, it is because I get caped, my opponent moved so the hitstun is different (only on ganon's dair, sometimes the fair) or I am doing something that isn't yet in my muscle memory like jumping onto a platform while doing an arial. I don't have a problem l-cancelling any other moves even if the opponent is doing something different than what I thought (most of the time)

Not to mention that a lot of the time when you force the missed l-cancel you do not have the guarantee that the opponent didn't hit is by luck, or you can punish him when he would have l-cancelled anyway.

However, just because I don't think about making the opponent miss their l-cancels doesn't mean that people better than me don't, so I'm wondering: does anybody use this sort of tactic consciously?

Also, I am all for l-cancelling in the next game because it adds just enough technical difficulty so that newbies find it tough and people who've been playing for a while can still improve.

 

[Chromeless]

I still don't see why newbies should find what is essentually the most basic move in the whole game 'tough'. I'm still of the opinion that the basics should be doable by anyone, the advanced moves should actually be...well, advanced.

 

[Jet_Kirby]

Well, this thread sure got a lot of attention in a single day...lol
I personally think that the game could be better without advanced techniques, and I'm sure a bountiful amount of people disagree with me, but the simple fact of it is that a player without magic fingers or at least fast enough fingers to pull off some of these moves stand no chance against people who can.
Case an point: my friend was playing with his worst character (mewtwo) against my other, less-experienced friend playing with his best character (fox). My less experienced friend simply could not perform advanced techniques well, whereas the other one could, this was the only difference between them. Both played well, but in the end he who can use advanced techniques squeezed out a win (1 stock) even with the lowest rated and least used (I'm assuming) character.
While most of you will probably ignore this story and hastily call me an uneducated snail or something for thinking that the game could be good, I only want to say one more thing.
Playing with advanced techniques is the only way to play, you say. (well only a few of you I hope)
Thats like saying that the only way to play pokemon trainer is with one pokemon, yet everyone seems to agree with the stamina aspect. Well, why not apply that to timed button presses and stick movements, hmm?

This is just my opinion, please feel free to express yours. I'm open to suggestions, lol

~Kirby out

 

[greenblob]

Smash, like most video games, require dexterity and reflexes. It should be obvious that the faster your fingers, the greater your advantage. Saying that having fast fingers is unfair is like saying that having a higher IQ is unfair.

 

[Hungry Gamer]

(haven't read all posts)

I personally don't care much for Advance Techniques. I never learned them or cared to learn them, because I always was a glitch hater. That right, a GLITCH! Melee was never ment to have such things as Wavedashng and Waveshining, they where only ploblems in the game. But maybe that is my view as a casual smasher.

I had fun playing Melee without such techniques for 4 or 5 years, and I don't see how anyone else can't. If your not that good without the move, well, have you thought that you were just bad at smash? Matter fact, I hope Brawl doesn't have wavedashing! Thats seperate the good smashers from the bad.

 

[red stone]

once you reach a certain point,(you don't even need to be that good) you don't miss l-cancels. it is a sin. basically you just assume people will cancel correctly and react accordingly. i wish they would make it so that the better you l-cancel the less lag you have though.

 

[psicicle]

Well, this thread sure got a lot of attention in a single day...lol
I personally think that the game could be better without advanced techniques, and I'm sure a bountiful amount of people disagree with me, but the simple fact of it is that a player without magic fingers or at least fast enough fingers to pull off some of these moves stand no chance against people who can.
Case an point: my friend was playing with his worst character (mewtwo) against my other, less-experienced friend playing with his best character (fox). My less experienced friend simply could not perform advanced techniques well, whereas the other one could, this was the only difference between them. Both played well, but in the end he who can use advanced techniques squeezed out a win (1 stock) even with the lowest rated and least used (I'm assuming) character.
While most of you will probably ignore this story and hastily call me an uneducated snail or something for thinking that the game could be good, I only want to say one more thing.
Playing with advanced techniques is the only way to play, you say. (well only a few of you I hope)
Thats like saying that the only way to play pokemon trainer is with one pokemon, yet everyone seems to agree with the stamina aspect. Well, why not apply that to timed button presses and stick movements, hmm?

This is just my opinion, please feel free to express yours. I'm open to suggestions, lol

~Kirby out

I don't think anybody (at least not very many) people are saying that adv. techs are the only way to play. I don't get the analogy, it isn't like SHFFLS are ALWAYS better to use then full jumped arials, but they are better in some situations.

I also don't think it takes magic fingers to wavedash or shorthop. Wavedashing does not require quick fingers, jsut good timing. shorthops can be excecuted by sliding your finger off the button. Of course at first it is hard to do them, but it takes a while to get good at things like piano. Getting good with the tech skill of piano (maybe appregios or something) will inevitably give you more options which is to some people more fune. Likewise with smash.

(haven't read all posts)

I personally don't care much for Advance Techniques. I never learned them or cared to learn them, because I always was a glitch hater. That right, a GLITCH! Melee was never ment to have such things as Wavedashng and Waveshining, they where only ploblems in the game. But maybe that is my view as a casual smasher.

I had fun playing Melee without such techniques for 4 or 5 years, and I don't see how anyone else can't. If your not that good without the move, well, have you thought that you were just bad at smash? Matter fact, I hope Brawl doesn't have wavedashing! Thats seperate the good smashers from the bad.

I played melee for 2 years without advanced stuff and to me it got really boring. It was basically just full jump arials, rolling and smashes. 3 options for the ground game. And all of those options have slow, chunky gameplay. With SHFFLs and stuff, the game became more fluid and fun to me.

 

[Team Giza]

Playing with advanced techniques is the only way to play, you say. (well only a few of you I hope)
Thats like saying that the only way to play pokemon trainer is with one pokemon, yet everyone seems to agree with the stamina aspect. Well, why not apply that to timed button presses and stick movements, hmm?

... huh? What you say? I don't see how those statements attach to each other? Please explain what you were trying to say again, it must have gone right over my head.

Plus there is only one true pokemon... his name is Wobbeffet and he holds left overs. I jokes.

Case an point: my friend was playing with his worst character (mewtwo) against my other, less-experienced friend playing with his best character (fox). My less experienced friend simply could not perform advanced techniques well, whereas the other one could, this was the only difference between them. Both played well, but in the end he who can use advanced techniques squeezed out a win (1 stock) even with the lowest rated and least used (I'm assuming) character.

I don't think wavedashing was the reason that the Fox player lost. For awhile my friends had learned wavedashing when I still hadn't and I still managed to get wins in. So I don't think you can blame wavedashing for all the loses, there are other forces at work.

 

[psicicle]

Also, there are people who lose advanced techs who lose to people who don't. Thay aren't the end all be all or the only factor in who wins.

And wobuffet is broken. seriously

 

[Jet_Kirby]

No, I don't suppose that it's the only way to win but it still is an extreme advantage. Also, I wasn't talking about wavedashing being the reason mewtwo won but other advanced techniques, mostly L-canceling and a few other things that I cant remember the names of.

Also sorry about before, I can't really find a good way to properly write exactly what I'm trying to tell everyone, so my little bro helped me with the wording...terribly anyway i wont ask him for help again.

To get what I'm saying you'd have to go inside my head and well, thats not possible at the current point in time so for that I apologize, If i ever get the proper words I'll be sure to post 'em.

 

[shinkazenokizzu]

well i am sure all of the advance techs will be there and maybe more lol

 

[Falco&Victory]

L-cancelling, DDing and DI were put in for a reason, they'll stay in Brawl(which I finally reserved)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

well i am sure all of the advance techs will be there and maybe more lol

Im pretty sure too Im hoping for all the techniques from melee to make it in. Who didn't appreciate spot dodging and powershielding? Both very useful and fun tactics, hard to master, the essence of smash techniques!

As for the wavedash, who the heck knows, but even without it there should be more than enough in the game to take full control of the characters and do battle with them on a higher plane of understanding like the competitive players in melee.

Crawling, bleh, Gliding? blech, Footstoolin? Sounds ok I guess.

I think these new techs are the tip of the iceberg... theres gotta be some cool stuff they're not gonna tell us about, or at least wait till the games out and has a ''how to play'' movie.

INTERCEPT!

 

[psicicle]

I think gliding has the possibility to speed gameplay up a lot. If you've ever played gunz, I sort of envision SHFFLs to be like jumping and dashing forward in that game with glides. I sort of imagine it to be like fastfalling except also horizontal.