A Proposal Regarding Marth's Honor--The Ness/Lucas 'Chaingrab'

[TheReflexWonder]

My consciousness tells me to win first place, because I have the intelligence and skill to get that far.

EDIT: He speaks.

And TheReflexWonder, not getting grabbed is nigh impossible. If you chose to main a worse character in Melee, that's fine. My secondary was Ness in Melee and I bragged about him being bottom tier. Ness had style and potential in Melee and I believed that and held to it. If it comes to it, I will learn to space extremely well, but I honestly think that people should not settle for false victory over the real.

Note that you didn't say "impossible" outright, however. Sure, it would probably make the match a lot less interesting to watch (and -play-, for that matter), but for all we know, there might be a way around it. The only way we'll know for sure whether or not it'll dominate the competitive scene is to see this match play out in tournaments. Give it time. If you don't, and there ends up being an escape method, we'll never know, and the metagame will never grow.

There's no reason to brag about using a terrible character, but it's fun to beat other people with the underdogs. There's a difference between simply playing and winning.

 

[Tetsuro]

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't Ness/Lucas escape upwards out of the grab?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't Ness/Lucas escape upwards out of the grab?

You're probably correct. There was an uproar when people thought Yoshi could chaingrab Wario in the same manner, but it was disproved. I'm actually pretty sure that this isn't the case, as well.

In fact, when my brother gets home, I'll test it for you all, just like I did the Yoshi/Wario bit.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Lol. Why are people saying "consciousness" and not "conscience". Anyway, i have a hard time accepting pressing one button as skill (no, c-stick doesn't count as a button). Usually if i beat someone (usually w/ Marth) and they say you just won because of (insert random complaint here) then i say "OK" like Ness and beat them next round without that move or technique.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lol. Why are people saying "consciousness" and not "conscience". Anyway, i have a hard time accepting pressing one button as skill (no, c-stick doesn't count as a button). Usually if i beat someone (usually w/ Marth) and they say you just won because of (insert random complaint here) then i say "OK" like Ness and beat them next round without that move or technique.

If someone has the gall to say "You only won because you used that one technique over and over again!", then a quick response of, "Then it should be easier to see coming. You must be terrible if you can't stop a single move."

To quote a smart man, "Play to win, not to do 'difficult moves'."

If pressing A repeatedly gives better results than trying to time a complicated combo, then I'm probably not going to fool around with the complicated combo when it's business time.

 

[Lord Aether]

I have concluded that many of you are without hearts. Warriors have hearts, they do not harden them at all. No, their hearts are the most soft. They are spurred toward courage and great deeds and exploits because they let themselves be moved. No man is cutthroat. He is a boy at best.

We are not Warriors. We are competitive smashers. There is a DIFFERENCE there, you see.

If I need to 'go out more' by your opinion, then perhaps I have merely been uncorrupted. I understand full well what the world is like. I am completely in tune with reality. The problem is, I completely disagree with that reality and refuse to accept it. No, I fight against it. And you, my good sir, need to understand that my disagreement with reality is not in any way an illusion. What I hold to is truer to my heart than your apathy will ever be. It is at the core of my and your being. You cannot deny it lest you deny your own nature.

I'm sure someone who compares warriors to competitive gamers and says that competitive gamers need honor surely needs to go out more.

And, to completely refute Torn, I am considering only using Ness in tournaments until this technique is banned as a testament against it. I care not how many times I lose. Torn you have a shallow view of morality. For you it may only be killing or not and there's no more than that. However, I do not choose pieces of my conscience but accept the whole.

Have fun losing!

And TheReflexWonder, not getting grabbed is nigh impossible. If you chose to main a worse character in Melee, that's fine. My secondary was Ness in Melee and I bragged about him being bottom tier. Ness had style and potential in Melee and I believed that and held to it. If it comes to it, I will learn to space extremely well, but I honestly think that people should not settle for false victory over the real.

Marth's stationary grab = his only good ranged grab. His dash grab isn't that hot. Though, there is the dash can be cancelled into a grab, or shield grabbing or something that could pull off the grab.

Not like Lucas or Ness won't already lose. Said Marth player would probably have better stuff up his or her sleeves if they know of this infinite.

The problem is that those who are arguing about playing to win are not playing to win at all. Because using this technique is not winning in any way shape or form. Using it to smash is game mechanics but using it to get 300% damage from zero on Ness is stupid. I probably will use it to smash occasionally, people used f-throw to f-smash in Melee a ton. That's something Ness and Lucas players will have to get used to. But that is a technique. Spamming buttons isn't.

This technique is about winning. The fact that you get someone from 3 stock to 0 basically means you win, and this technique helps achieve it. Duh. Do you even know what winning is in Smash? It's when you get them to zero stock before you lose all your stock!

Those who claim that they 'play to win' do not at all. They play for the prize but not for victory or conquer. They are not testing themselves and proving themselves in any way. They just want their cash and the sooner they get it, the better. That is in itself disgusting.

Wait so going through an entire tournament with maybe two or three Lucas/Ness battles automatically means they're not talented or anything to that extent?

Kinda stupid.

 

[Azuro]

Proverbs, there's no such thing as honor in competitive gaming. No one's at fault here for playing to win. It's not banned from play. It's a legal maneuver, so why not take advantage of that? It can't even be enforced as a rule, since it only applies to Ness and Lucas. Therefore, it's legal, and fair game. Just find better ways to get around it, or switch mains.

If you can't do any one of the two options you're given to deal with this, then tough luck.

 

[BacklashMarth]

The unfortunate reality is that competition makes people throw caution to the wind. I only use cheap tactics against cheap tatics.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The unfortunate reality is that competition makes people throw caution to the wind. I only use cheap tactics against cheap tatics.

Your first statement makes no sense. If anything, people tense up and do all they possibly can in competition. Things one wouldn't do in friendlies become staple tactics.

You're welcome to use optimal tactics only against optimal tactics if you want, but you'd better not say anything when the opponent comes out on top because he decided to play smart before you did.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Trowing caution to the wind = all bets are off (in other words play to win).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Trowing caution to the wind = all bets are off (in other words play to win).

"Throwing caution to the wind" means being reckless. You're not allowed to change the meaning of popular sayings.

Please, say what you mean, rather than put it in a saying you don't understand.

 

[Pbag]

My personal philosophy is that ethics and honor were both created when life became easy enough to add rules to living it.

That being said, this technique will probably be banned eventually, but in some games, when there's a glitch that goes uncorrected, people abuse the hell out of it as long as they can.

If it gives an edge, then why tell a person to get rid of the edge they just gained?

Honor is intangible, and subjective.

Rules are intangible, but definite.

I'll go with the one that doesn't change by the person.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Ok. I didn't change the meaning of the saying, I just changed the meaning of "caution". Wait....hold up! As a matter of fact I didn't change the meaning of caution. A person can be cautious as to not play in a way that goes contrary to their honor. And who are you to say what i can and cant do? Its the internet.

 

[Pierce7d]

Nice first post and welcome to the boards.

As for me, I was going to go with my usual long and eleaborate, but then I realized, I don't care if you think I'm dishonorable. I'm not even going to try to enlighten you a little.

If I just payed to play and try to win, I'm not holding back, and I don't think an honorable opponent would want me to. I'll give you the courtesy of letting you know I'm going to use Marth if I see you choose Ness or Lucas. That's all.

I don't play tournements for fun. I play tournements to win money. If I wanted to play for fun, I wouldn't soend money. That being said, I'll use the fun tactics to have fun, and the winning tactics to win. That's obvious, that's how most players will be, nuff said.

I rarely even break out Marth in friendlies, lulz

 

[BacklashMarth]

Touche (pronouce too-shay). I think giving the person a heads up is good enough if you paid to enter a tournament.

 

[Pbag]

When I play against my friend, if he doesn't try, or goes easy on me, I feel somewhat insulted.

Granted, he is much better than me, and he easily 3 stocks me each game (unless he screws up, then I say that it was a mistake that I would have made). But I want him to play his best so that I can learn from it and figure out how to beat it. It's insulting if he deliberately doesn't play his best, because it's like saying, "Yeah, I'm better than you, I don't need to put any effort in to win."

I'd rather lose and learn, than to win even though I shouldn't have

 

[Azuro]

Nice first post and welcome to the boards.

As for me, I was going to go with my usual long and eleaborate, but then I realized, I don't care if you think I'm dishonorable. I'm not even going to try to enlighten you a little.

If I just payed to play and try to win, I'm not holding back, and I don't think an honorable opponent would want me to. I'll give you the courtesy of letting you know I'm going to use Marth if I see you choose Ness or Lucas. That's all.

I don't play tournements for fun. I play tournements to win money. If I wanted to play for fun, I wouldn't soend money. That being said, I'll use the fun tactics to have fun, and the winning tactics to win. That's obvious, that's how most players will be, nuff said.

I rarely even break out Marth in friendlies, lulz

>_>

I'm sure people play in tournaments to have fun, too.

If you do, then disregard this. Just highlighting something.

 

[Pierce7d]

I have fun when I play tournaments, but the purpose of playing them is to win, lol.

Otherwise, I'd just play friendlies, and save the cash.

 

[BacklashMarth]

When I play against my friend, if he doesn't try, or goes easy on me, I feel somewhat insulted.

Granted, he is much better than me, and he easily 3 stocks me each game (unless he screws up, then I say that it was a mistake that I would have made). But I want him to play his best so that I can learn from it and figure out how to beat it. It's insulting if he deliberately doesn't play his best, because it's like saying, "Yeah, I'm better than you, I don't need to put any effort in to win."

I'd rather lose and learn, than to win even though I shouldn't have

If a chaingrab throw is the best thing i can come up with and use for my marth, then i would main someone else. Don't get me wrong i know what you are saying.

 

[-Ran]

I don't know if it's been said, I'm a bit too tired to read the entire thread, but Marth isn't the only one that is capable of doing it.

Ask yourself this, if it was the other way around, would Ness/Lucas characters avoid doing it? No. It'd become a feature for their characters, just as it is for DDD. =p

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

I play in a tournament to kick other people's ***** at smash (or to get my *** kicked lol), and using the chaingrab just seems weak to me. If i used the chaingrab to win, I wouldn't feel like I won.

It all really comes to it being banned though, which I think it will eventually (unless some escape maneuver is found that can be performed reliably).

 

[OmegaXF]

Well point blank this chain grab sounds gay. And me being a Marth main the only reason........ONLY REASON I don't do this grab is because.........................
I get no Lotion if I do it....Where is my Satisfaction Lotion? Lotion Is Gone because of the chain grab so therfore I will not do it. Only do it if Lotion is involved....
so This should be banned.

 

[orintemple]

You sir are weak. That is almost all I have to say on the issue. If five hundred bucks buys out your conscience and code of honor, then you are void of being a man on any level. That's not an insult, that's a challenge. Those void of morals have no clue what competition is. You'd break your opponent's hand if it was between you and some large sum of money. As long as you got your money and didn't get in trouble. That's what I hate about your philosophy. I do not hate you, as I understand and empathize with the part of our human selves that desire to win so strongly that we would do anything--especially for men. But this desire I do not give in to.

The difference between you and I is that I do not let my desires master myself. Go find out what this means "I beat my body and make it my slave" (1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV).

No.

This is a video game not real life. You have no idea what my code of ethics is in real life. You are correct that I would break someone's hand if he was my OPPONENT. But to have an opponent means I am fighting someone, and thats what happens in a fight. Just because I will infinite someone in a GAME for money has nothing to do with real life. It doesn't mean I will kill someone for money in real life, or even harm someone, unless I or a loved one was being threatened or harmed first.

Also, don't spew your ridiculous religious bull**** at me. I am VERY bitter and irritable about religion. Of course you could not have known that so I am not going to rant about it, but don't bring it up again in response to my posts.

Main point, don't judge someone in real life because of what they will do in a video game. You don't know me in real life and don't know what kind of person I am, so shut the **** up.

 

[OmegaXF]

Nice waqy to shut him down and take his lotion. I don't know what his problems is but that is just one person an earthbounder has to watch out for.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Lol. Lotion. Just thinking of the word makes me laugh now. Oh, and orintemple, I am sorry that religion scalds you so much. I thank you for not going on a rant about it.

 

[JesiahTEG]

W/e, I'm abusing this.

 

[Jx31]

If it's not banned, I'll use it, no questions asked.

People need to read this if they're a serious tournament goer. http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

 

[orintemple]

Lol. Lotion. Just thinking of the word makes me laugh now. Oh, and orintemple, I am sorry that religion scalds you so much. I thank you for not going on a rant about it.

No problem, its just a personal deal, nothing for you to worry about. That post wasn't in response to you though, so sorry if you thought so. I was telling this guy the facts. Prejudging others before you know them is totally not cool.

 

[AuraMarth]

In a tournament setting all that matters is the win. Dedede and Falco will not hesitate using the chain grabs, I wouldn't limit ourselves either. Although knowing this, Ness and Lucas users will shorten out a bit.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nice waqy to shut him down and take his lotion. I don't know what his problems is but that is just one person an earthbounder has to watch out for.

It's actually about 4 or 5 who can perform this exact same infinite...

And orintemple, getting angry at him because he posted a religious quote is very intolerant. And people say that those who practice religion are intolerant! You should have just ignored it.

 

[Flatfeet]

So why was Sonic's stalling banned?

 

[AOB]

#1 is just a way of saying that you don't care what you have to do to win. That's a mercenary's way and not the way of a warrior. This I disagree with to my very core. Winning is nothing when you realize that you did not win: a cheap and disreputable technique did.

#2 shows your lack of sympathy. Honor is not "being nice." There are some things that are downright mean that involve a man's honor. Fighting until death to defend a cause is honorable, but Mr. Rogers would hardly support such a cause. Do you understand what I mean?

This is a video game you're talking about.

 

[5150]

The Way Of The Warrior!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jinofcoolnes]

nope iam gonna be a jerk about it.

 

[Impact009]

To say somebody is void of moral qualities based on a video games is silly to me. That's like saying if I get pleasure from killing in a video game, that I also derive pleasure from doing so in real life.

Two problems:

1. Some people want to win when they're at tournaments, and who can blame them for using everything at their disposal?

2. "Honor" is really just a pretentious way of saying "being nice."

QFT.

Wait, you're saying Marth players should not use this "cheap" tactic until players can find a way around it? In this case, how would players find a way around it if it's never used? Where's even the slightest incentive if everybody conformed to this idea?

Not to sound elitist, but "cheap" is a scrub's way of crying about a tactic that their minds can't work around. Strategy is the most determining factor in a battle.

How is it that countries can fight honorably amongst each other, yet often times it is heavily on one side's favor? I know this is just a proposal, but it seems too idealistic to me. Many people go to tournaments for the experience, while just as many attend with money as their top priority.

I'm not going to bother quoting anything, but you'd be a fool to not take advantage of an opening in the heat of battle. You are right to say that this would destroy a portion of the competition, which is equivalent to winning against that portion. You either win or lose, there is no push or stalemate.

By the way...I don't really play as Marth.

 

[GhettoSheep]

You can jump out of the infinite, so really it is not a true infinite, it's really hard, but with more practice people will become more consistent with this. I would never use this in friendlies because the point is to practice, and generally try not to piss people off (friendliness). But the point of the tournaments is to win, don't bind yourself by self-imposed rules of fairness. The earthbounder should work on new strategies and techniques, not just ***** about how it's unfair.

There have always been cheap moves, but having to work our way around it is what keeps the game evolving. Also, anyone serious about competitive play should read sirlin's "playing to win." It's probably one of the best things ever written about this subject.

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can jump out of the infinite, so really it is not a true infinite, it's really hard, but with more practice people will become more consistent with this. I would never use this in friendlies because the point is to practice, and generally try not to piss people off (friendliness). But the point of the tournaments is to win, don't bind yourself by self-imposed rules of fairness. The earthbounder should work on new strategies and techniques, not just ***** about how it's unfair.

If they're jumping out of the infinite then you're doing it wrong. On Ness it is inescapable. On Lucas you have to dash grab in order to reach them, and they will eventually reach the end of the stage.

 

[uremog]

Sorry, you're seriously posting in the wrong topic XD

i was wondering why the description wasn't in the OP
obscurity of the topic won't solve anything

to do it, you grab lucas or ness with marth, snake, yoshi or several other chars (lol, lucas can do it too)

grab attack until they break out of your grab
regrab. you may have to take a step or do a running grab depending on who's involved.
i think lucas can get out around 50%, but not without risk.
<- not true
see the thread in tactical discussion for more info

ness has is bad, but it's no worse than melee ICs. lucas must be dashgrabbed, so you'll eventually run out of stage and then it's a mindgame.

now that that's out, let's all continue slinging ad hominems to try to guilt fellow marth players into doing what you think is right

 

[Proverbs]

No.

This is a video game not real life. You have no idea what my code of ethics is in real life. You are correct that I would break someone's hand if he was my OPPONENT. But to have an opponent means I am fighting someone, and thats what happens in a fight. Just because I will infinite someone in a GAME for money has nothing to do with real life. It doesn't mean I will kill someone for money in real life, or even harm someone, unless I or a loved one was being threatened or harmed first.

Also, don't spew your ridiculous religious bull**** at me. I am VERY bitter and irritable about religion. Of course you could not have known that so I am not going to rant about it, but don't bring it up again in response to my posts.

Main point, don't judge someone in real life because of what they will do in a video game. You don't know me in real life and don't know what kind of person I am, so shut the **** up.

Although NessBounder did have a point in what he said, I realize that some of my assertions were a bit over the top and want to apologize.

What I was addressing was the fact that two very good mains would be ruined over a programming flaw and I was sick of hearing people saying "I don't care." However, I can still respect your point of view, and I mean that. I'm sorry for taking this issue a bit too far.

However, I would like you to understand why I said what I said by seeing it from the point of view of the Ness players as I tried to do (and became easier for me when I decided Ness would be my second main--after I found out about this, by the way). So, I'm sorry for taking this issue too far, but I felt that the Ness players needed someone to argue in their defense.

Also, now there has been new information provided on this topic:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4426969#post4426969

If this information is true, then both Lucas' and Ness' situations are far less desparate than we thought. If that is so and the Earthbounders are not facing extermination as characters, I have no problem using the technique myself, as it doesn't put them in the situation of being completely overruled in competition. And, like you said, is something that should be taken advantage of.

My problem wasn't the technique. When I first learned of it and thought only Marth could do it, I even used it on my friend during a friendly for a little, but he soon escaped. After that I didn't care much for it. My problem was that loads of people would lose their mains because of a programming flaw and no one cared. My sympathy was aroused and that provoked this thread.

So, in essence: I'm sorry I went overboard but I was trying to support people who were in an extremely desperate situation with their mains. Now that the threat has been mostly alleviated, I have no real problem with this technique.

Once again, I apologize deeply and from the heart if I had offended anyone.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I notice Proverbs your a Ness mainer.

If I'm playing a Ness/Lucas user and he's beating me by 1 or 2 lives, or I think I can't beat him, I'll use the infinite for sure.

Survival of the cheapest is my motto. Anything in my power to win without breaking any laws I'll use.