Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Something to keep in mind about SDI is that this game makes it needlessly difficult to even practice doing it, given this series' near-useless training mode (which is a huge problem for this game). Something like, say, perfect pivoting, you can do by yourself, but practicing SDI requires you be hit by a move in order to even begin to try it. It's not exactly feasible for a lot of people to get someone to help them learn to SDI, since we don't have the option to do it by ourselves. I wish that these arbitrary physical barriers would be lowered though, hitting buttons and waggling sticks is not really a skill.

I think you can use the smart bomb items in training mode.

 

[David Viran]

Something to keep in mind about SDI is that this game makes it needlessly difficult to even practice doing it, given this series' near-useless training mode (which is a huge problem for this game). Something like, say, perfect pivoting, you can do by yourself, but practicing SDI requires you be hit by a move in order to even begin to try it. It's not exactly feasible for a lot of people to get someone to help them learn to SDI, since we don't have the option to do it by ourselves. I wish that these arbitrary physical barriers would be lowered though, hitting buttons and waggling sticks is not really a skill.

I find it hard to believe SDI can’t be practiced alone. I could understand it if it was like perfect pivoting as that is hard to practice without visually seeing if you are doing the inputs properly. SDI, on the other hand, does not require that kind of timing. I don’t see what’s stopping people from practicing SDI. You don’t even really need the game on to practice it.

 

[Krysco]

Since Bayo is the hot topic again, here's a video the Beefy Smash Doods released a while back in regards to SDIing her bread and butter combos.

For a tl;dw:
-the only combo starters she has into Witch Twist that can be DI'ed to avoid said Witch Twist are fair 1 and dABK, both of which require DI'ing down and away from her.
-it IS possible to completely SDI out of Witch Twist before the final hit connects but it's incredibly difficult
-The optimal SDI is away from Bayo. This is where the mix up comes in between SDIing up and away or down and away since up and away requires a jump or else the ABK will miss and down and away requires no jump or again, the ABK will miss.
-The optimal SDI (or just DI) for the ABK is also up and away from Bayo
-Following that DI, the only thing she can follow up with is another ABK where yet again, the optimal SDI is up and away
-From there, the only thing Bayo can do is attempt to get a bair or to land asap
-In the event that you get hit by a second Witch Twist, the optimal SDI is still away from Bayo to try and avoid the uair afterwards
-Under the assumption that she's facing left when she lands her first Witch Twist, this would make the optimal SDI up and to the left then up and to the right then up and to the left again. Vice versa if she's facing the right.
-If she catches you with a Witch Twist off stage and tries to follow up with a fair, you want to SDI down and away as her Witch Twist rarely kills and the down and away DI makes it so fair can't connect but ABK can.
-They also mention a technique that they recommend only pro players go for and only against really good Bayo's and that's to switch your SDI up mid Witch Twist. So for example, going from SDIing up and away to down and away mid Witch Twist.

All of that is just me paraphrasing what they say in their video.

Also, I can imagine if Sm4sh had double stick SDIing, Bayo wouldn't be quite as much of an issue. With double stick SDI, you'd be able to do literally twice as many SDI inputs since you'd have both thumbs on 2 sticks focused on SDIing, both sticks giving inputs to the game making you SDI. Oh and a better training mode would help too.

Oh and someone mentioned how Bayo doesn't ignore frame traps or something? Yeah, got another BSD vid to prove that wrong:

Link can dthrow uair and as long as he follows his opponents drift, the uair will always connect (probably actually character dependent due to dthrow being weight based and due to air speeds and such), even if it's just the late hit. This doesn't apply to Bayo due to Bat Within. Not only that but in the example they show, Bayo is actually able to move before Link can (she's mid taunt while he's still stuck in landing lag). I'm sure she doesn't avoid all of them and Bat Within even puts her possibly in some that other characters wouldn't have to deal with but yeah.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You can definitely learn or rather get used to mashing your stick in directions on your own yes but that doesn't do you as much good as actually being hit by the move and SDI'ing it as needed something you can't do on your own in a repetitive fashion. Without modification I cant get the CPU to do different drifts with Lucas' Nair or have Diddy use his Up smash st various levels of rage. So I definitely can agree with the sentiment it's hard to practice if you don't have someone available to practice with. Wifi exists but the latency issues can also askew your ability to do it optimally.

 

[WiFi]

I could feel your rebuttal coming @Shaya. I felt the intense burning through my phone. My body is ready



I... guess? Better than Fox, Sheik, or Cloud? I suppose it depends how you qualify “best”.



My syntax is awful in that sentence. Check out the hitbox with the 85 degree angle, that thing is rather close to her hurtbox, man.

I don’t have a list of max ranges versus grabs for that hitbox, but various characters can punish it, especially those with decent OoS games. I don’t know how many, off the top of my head, though.

Obviously, power shielding helps, but your chance of doing so increases if you know they will try to get that set up and knowing if/how your character can punish it OoS.

Suffice it to say, it’s a less good version of Mewtwo’s dtilt.



Even with frame trapping a dtilt->Uair, she has limited means to actually kill you. It varies greatly depending on situational context. But yeah, you can still get caught. But that goes for fighting every top tier character. Especially for the more stock sealing inclined. Like Fox and Mewtwo.

Also, man, as a side note, while Mistake got the drop on Cosmos in the first two games, he did die to both Uair at 76% and Up-B off the top.

Cosmos also apparently forgot one of the best anti-Bayo tools he has: DFS. He never fired a shot in all five games.



I don’t know if you had the time to watch Full Bloom, but lately we’ve had some Ryu’s living forever against Bayo, especially if she can’t get a early kill. Even Cosmos had quite a few maxish rage lives against Mistake.

Regardless, I don’t mean to say that she is bad at killing, at least in absolute terms. She’s not. But Sheik players also manage to seal stocks early, too.

I don’t think Bayo is limited like some of the cast, but, let me put it this way, if I could group her stock sealing into a Best-Killers-Tier-List, she be like, A or maybe B tier. Around the same area as Mario.

Oh, who’s in S tier?

Mewtwo, ofc.

Lemme count the ways of death:

- frame 6, forward facing aerial that’s safe on shield
- frame 6 dtilt > imagination, which is absolutely safe on shield at the range it also has all the set-ups
- Shadowball.
- dumb Nair > ? > disable
- dumb jab locks that no one uses for some reason thank god
- that dumb U-throw which ends even Bowser before he can take advantage of max rage
- randy Bair
- Randy Uair

Corrin is also S tier at killing, probably.


... how did I end up on this tangent?

It is also important to notice that Bayonetta has garbage Smash Attacks that she can't just spam, and once her opponents gain 130% percent, she has to fish for Up-airs, or Back Airs to seal the stock. I've labbed Bayonetta extensively on this, and I'd say that Witch Time is her best kill option. B-tier in terms of killing.

As for frame trapping, Fox and Sheik take the cake. Most of their moves are stupid fast and safe on shield, and the Fox vortex is probably Fox's most broken option at mid-percents. Sheik can also vortex people, but her percentages are a bit more strict.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

You can definitely learn or rather get used to mashing your stick in directions on your own yes but that doesn't do you as much good as actually being hit by the move and SDI'ing it as needed something you can't do on your own in a repetitive fashion. Without modification I cant get the CPU to do different drifts with Lucas' Nair or have Diddy use his Up smash st various levels of rage. So I definitely can agree with the sentiment it's hard to practice if you don't have someone available to practice with. Wifi exists but the latency issues can also askew your ability to do it optimally.

SDI may seem odd or unusual at first, but like any other technique in smash 4 it can be mastered with practice. Though doing that is only half of the battle.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

SDI may seem odd or unusual at first, but like any other technique in smash 4 it can be mastered with practice. Though doing that is only half of the battle.

Maybe because I've played smash since it was released I'm used to the existence of SDI in the other smash games so it doesn't come as odd to me but I suppose someone new to the series (which seems to be the case for a lot of Smash 4 players who if not new to Smash 4 only played Brawl as well). SDI literally determines if a Jigglypuff player is getting killed at 60 once grabbed by Fox in Melee and it's important for a lot other things as well. I'm glad we have such a mechanic to add depth and make smash unique, but I do worry about the longevity of controllers with such a technique. Without increasing SDI multiplies I think double stick SDI needs to come back so I don't feel like I'm about to snap my stick in half when I do it.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Maybe because I've played smash since it was released I'm used to the existence of SDI in the other smash games so it doesn't come as odd to me but I suppose someone new to the series (which seems to be the case for a lot of Smash 4 players who if not new to Smash 4 only played Brawl as well). SDI literally determines if a Jigglypuff player is getting killed at 60 once grabbed by Fox in Melee and it's important for a lot other things as well. I'm glad we have such a mechanic to add depth and make smash unique, but I do worry about the longevity of controllers with such a technique. Without increasing SDI multiplies I think double stick SDI needs to come back so I don't feel like I'm about to snap my stick in half when I do it.

I agree, it would be great if double stick SDI returned to reduce stress on your hands and damage to your controller.

 

[Iridium]

triple jump is intentional, actually

I meant to ask whether this is something Bayonetta could always do, even in her own games?

 

[David Viran]

I meant to ask whether this is something Bayonetta could always do, even in her own games?

No, witch twist works a little differently in her own games.

 

[Iridium]

No, witch twist works a little differently in her own games.

I would imagine that. She would be terrifying if completely ripped from her game.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I learned (long ago in here in fact) that a good way to SDI is to hold the control stick in the desired location firmly and vibrate your whole arm. This shakes the controller while you keep the control stick in one direction, so it goes back and forth between the notches. It looks funny from afar, but it works well for me. That said, I'm really bad at doing it towards the left.

 

[|RK|]

More talk on Twitter from Leo, Tweek, and M2K about how overrated Cloud is. M2K also references how Salem agrees that people have heavily overrated him.

On one hand, you can't argue that they aren't putting their money where their mouth is. Leo and Tweek especially seem to rarely use Cloud now, favoring the upgrade to Bayonetta.

But you almost feel like they gave up on the character a little too quickly? It has never looked (at least to me) that they were held back by Cloud.

Though the opinions of others are also changing, to a degree. Coming off of his first(?) win against Leo, Dabuz no longer thinks the Cloud MU is that bad for Rosa.

For me, it almost feels like opinions are changing too quickly. But the players would know better than I would. So... did we actually overrate Cloud for ages? Instead of a definitive #2 in the game, is he part of the "tied for 2-10" soup?

 

[Minordeth]

@TTTTTsd - I’m working on a general reply as to why she isn’t necessarily the best choice if you want to win, but I’ll do a short version for now:

If you want to win:
If you are a low/mid level player, it’s better that you pick a top tier character that fits your playstyle.

The difficulty to play Bayo is directly related to how well the opponent knows the MU. You think her combos are flowcharty? Guess what happens when her opponent messes up that flowchart? The depth of knowledge the top four have to have in order to keep their reward on hit up is pretty massive.

The difference between the top and high level is pretty stark.

EDIT: on Cloud, yeah, uh, this is some reactionary twitter silliness. Like, Ned just took Full Bloom 4. Cloud is dumb strong.

 

[|RK|]

EDIT: on Cloud, yeah, uh, this is some reactionary twitter silliness. Like, Ned just took Full Bloom 4. Cloud is dumb strong.

Thing is, this is only coming from the top Cloud players. It's not from, say, spectators or the same types of people who say "Sheik sucks."

I guess you could argue it's like the Mario players. But top tier or no, it seems like top Clouds don't think he's #2, at least.

And Full Bloom... sure, but that was definitely a weaker tournament than Smash Masters. That's not meant to discredit Ned's accomplishment at all - just to point out that Cloud didn't show up at the strongest tournament.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

If you want to win:
If you are a low/mid level player, it’s better that you pick a top tier character that fits your playstyle.

What if there is none? Should they just not play then?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Thing is, this is only coming from the top Cloud players. It's not from, say, spectators or the same types of people who say "Sheik sucks."

I guess you could argue it's like the Mario players. But top tier or no, it seems like top Clouds don't think he's #2, at least.

And Full Bloom... sure, but that was definitely a weaker tournament than Smash Masters. That's not meant to discredit Ned's accomplishment at all - just to point out that Cloud didn't show up at the strongest tournament.

Cloud is still a very common pick in competitive smash 4 and he's a solid character with traits that other members of the cast don't possess. I don't see him falling from the 2# spot anytime soon honestly.

 

[MercuryPenny]

it's hard to know exactly how good cloud is since nearly all his top level representatives are gone. mew2king never attends, tweek switched to bayo, leo uses marth and mk way more often and is starting to sub in bayo as well.

now cloud's best representatives are closer to the high-level area with people like ned and blacktwins. it's ultimately a self-fulfilling prophesy, if none of the top cloud players play cloud because they think he isn't top 2 then his results drop and there isn't much data for him being top 2 anymore

I guess you could argue it's like the Mario players.

top-level mario players still exist tho

 

[The_Bookworm]

it's hard to know exactly how good cloud is since nearly all his top level representatives are gone. mew2king never attends, tweek switched to bayo, leo uses marth and mk way more often and is starting to sub in bayo as well.

now cloud's best representatives are closer to the high-level area with people like ned and blacktwins. it's ultimately a self-fulfilling prophesy, if none of the top cloud players play cloud because they think he isn't top 2 then his results drop and there isn't much data for him being top 2 anymore


top-level mario players still exist tho

Top players are honestly too reactionary. The reason why they don't believe Cloud is good is because they don't put their heart into it.

 

[Iridium]

Top players are honestly too reactionary. The reason why they don't believe Cloud is good is because they don't put their heart into it.

I agree, but what do you think about Japanese Clouds like Komorikiri, Mao and Masashi? How exactly does Japan see Cloud? Probably not too broken, but since anyone can do well, but I guess that depends.

 

[P!NkN!Nj@]

IF Cloud is no longer top 2, who is most likely to be the second best character instead? Perhaps Sheik or Diddy. (NOT SAYING Cloud isn’t top 2, just curious since Cloud staying 2nd is being debated as of late. Or it’s just people being over reactive).

 

[|RK|]

it's hard to know exactly how good cloud is since nearly all his top level representatives are gone. mew2king never attends, tweek switched to bayo, leo uses marth and mk way more often and is starting to sub in bayo as well.

now cloud's best representatives are closer to the high-level area with people like ned and blacktwins. it's ultimately a self-fulfilling prophesy, if none of the top cloud players play cloud because they think he isn't top 2 then his results drop and there isn't much data for him being top 2 anymore


top-level mario players still exist tho

Right - I'm saying that they believe Cloud isn't that good AND they're dropping him as a result.

What I meant by the Mario comment is that top Marios would continue to play him despite saying he sucks.

 

[Minordeth]

Thing is, this is only coming from the top Cloud players. It's not from, say, spectators or the same types of people who say "Sheik sucks."

I guess you could argue it's like the Mario players. But top tier or no, it seems like top Clouds don't think he's #2, at least.

And Full Bloom... sure, but that was definitely a weaker tournament than Smash Masters. That's not meant to discredit Ned's accomplishment at all - just to point out that Cloud didn't show up at the strongest tournament.

So, I should clarify:

I don’t think Cloud is absolutely #2 either.

But I do think this wave of “Cloud sucks lol” is based on the fact that the community has figured out the MU a bit more, and suddenly he isn’t this monster character.

It’s a collective realization that’s being carried a bit too far.

Ironically, Zero was just talking about how Cloud affords him degrees of freedom he doesn’t have with other characters.

What if there is none? Should they just not play then?

I’d wager there’s maybe 15 characters that can win a national. Maybe more, maybe less. There’s enough variety in play styles among the top characters to accommodate anyone.

If they don’t have one that immediately clicks, it may just take a bit longer. Enjoyment of a character can depend on how much you actually know about them. Sometimes you need to spend some time learning to see if they really click or not.

 

[Rizen]

I've described top tier as [] for a long time and honestly nothing about the actual meta has changed. What has changed is ZeRo quit so Diddy lost his best rep and a few top players started using Bayo more. Representation's shifted but has Bayo really risen above Cloud and Diddy?

I think Bayo lends more to the OP competitive mentality: you outplay a little and win big. Getting WTi-ed to a punish string of choice feels like an unearned string because no other character works that way. Then her juggles are great and she can flip disadvantage to advantage potentially any time. She escapes frame traps due to bat within, which only she has. She can up/sideB twice and not freefall. She's OP in ways that feel unfair.

Honestly Cloud's like this too; Uair juggles and Limit finishers are powerful but in a way people expect. Get hit with a big OP attack and die early or get vortexed by Uairs; many characters can do it. We're used to characters pulling this stuff like Wario's farts, Rosa's Uairs, Marth's sword walls, etc. The thing is Cloud has all of it: OP Limit finishers, best mobility in the game with limit, still great without, average weight unlike several top tiers who are balanced by this, f4 js tied for best in the game and great frame data for a sword character, all with a huge 'Ike level' sword.

I was watching some sets of ZeRo the other day and though "****, Diddy's crazy". A lot of the Bayo uneasiness, to be polite, was generated from Leo picking Bayo. What if Leo had picked Diddy? Diddy would have top level rep again and people would be happy. Diddy has had better results than Bayo and Cloud at times in the past. People don't think of Diddy's freaking neutral, ledge traps with banana, cornucopia of safe bare minimal commitment kill setups, Fair, Dtilt, and grab game as OP. Even without ZeRo he has top 4 results.

Revising something I said a while ago: Bayo breaks the rules, Cloud is the ultimate mobile sword style character, and Diddy is the ultimate "honest character". Who's the broken one?

 

[WiFi]

I've described top tier as [] for a long time and honestly nothing about the actual meta has changed. What has changed is ZeRo quit so Diddy lost his best rep and a few top players started using Bayo more. Representation's shifted but has Bayo really risen above Cloud and Diddy?

I think Bayo lends more to the OP competitive mentality: you outplay a little and win big. Getting WTi-ed to a punish string of choice feels like an unearned string because no other character works that way. Then her juggles are great and she can flip disadvantage to advantage potentially any time. She escapes frame traps due to bat within, which only she has. She can up/sideB twice and not freefall. She's OP in ways that feel unfair.

Honestly Cloud's like this too; Uair juggles and Limit finishers are powerful but in a way people expect. Get hit with a big OP attack and die early or get vortexed by Uairs; many characters can do it. We're used to characters pulling this stuff like Wario's farts, Rosa's Uairs, Marth's sword walls, etc. The thing is Cloud has all of it: OP Limit finishers, best mobility in the game with limit, still great without, average weight unlike several top tiers who are balanced by this, f4 js tied for best in the game and great frame data for a sword character, all with a huge 'Ike level' sword.

I was watching some sets of ZeRo the other day and though "****, Diddy's crazy". A lot of the Bayo uneasiness, to be polite, was generated from Leo picking Bayo. What if Leo had picked Diddy? Diddy would have top level rep again and people would be happy. Diddy has had better results than Bayo and Cloud at times in the past. People don't think of Diddy's freaking neutral, ledge traps with banana, cornucopia of safe bare minimal commitment kill setups, Fair, Dtilt, and grab game as OP. Even without ZeRo he has top 4 results.

Revising something I said a while ago: Bayo breaks the rules, Cloud is the ultimate mobile sword style character, and Diddy is the ultimate "honest character". Who's the broken one?

To be fair, Diddy is a very stressful character to play in tournaments and really requires a knowledge of the neutral game. You can't just pick up Diddy and be a good Diddy player. You have to put in major work, and you need a bit of tech skill as well. You can't play Diddy without being consistent with B-reverses, which is why I play Cloud instead of Diddy. Why put in hours of work into a character that requires tech skill when there are much easier characters to play? For the very same reason, Brawl had way more MK players (MK was truly OP though), than Ice Climbers or Olimar players.

Minordeth Who are your 15 characters that can win a national? I'm curious. I personally think that any character above Meta Knight can win a national. Peach can't because Cloud and MK exist. Falcon has gotten really close, but its really only Fatality who does well with him, and Lucario is inconsistent and loses to some weird characters (Wario is probably the weirdest MU for Lucario).

 

[spinalwolf]

What if there is none? Should they just not play then?

No you don't have to. No one needs to pick a top tier if they just wanna have fun in the game. If you absolutely want to win however, its highly advised you pick a tournament viable character. Where people draw the line of who's tournament viable and who isn't is really up for debate but its important to note that even characters with god awful match ups like with Peach's case can win tournaments. You just need to pick a secondary to cover those bad match ups.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Falcon has gotten really close, but its really only Fatality who does well with him

Gee, it's not like others like Cashmere and maybe Pichi don't exist, and one of them actually did better than Fatality at at least one event (and it's CERTAINLY not like it happened not too long ago).

You just need to pick a secondary to cover those bad match ups.

Depends.

Besides, so few people actually compete at the level you imply, so shouldn't that advice be saved for those who actually ARE at that level?

 

[spinalwolf]

Gee, it's not like others like Cashmere and maybe Pichi don't exist, and one of them actually did better than Fatality at at least one event (and it's CERTAINLY not like it happened not too long ago).



Depends.

Besides, so few people actually compete at the level you imply, so shouldn't that advice be saved for those who actually ARE at that level?

Its general advice for people who wanna either wanna be good at that level or people who already are.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Its general advice for people who wanna either wanna be good at that level or people who already are.

So placebo effect?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I've described top tier as [] for a long time and honestly nothing about the actual meta has changed. What has changed is ZeRo quit so Diddy lost his best rep and a few top players started using Bayo more. Representation's shifted but has Bayo really risen above Cloud and Diddy?

I think Bayo lends more to the OP competitive mentality: you outplay a little and win big. Getting WTi-ed to a punish string of choice feels like an unearned string because no other character works that way. Then her juggles are great and she can flip disadvantage to advantage potentially any time. She escapes frame traps due to bat within, which only she has. She can up/sideB twice and not freefall. She's OP in ways that feel unfair.

Honestly Cloud's like this too; Uair juggles and Limit finishers are powerful but in a way people expect. Get hit with a big OP attack and die early or get vortexed by Uairs; many characters can do it. We're used to characters pulling this stuff like Wario's farts, Rosa's Uairs, Marth's sword walls, etc. The thing is Cloud has all of it: OP Limit finishers, best mobility in the game with limit, still great without, average weight unlike several top tiers who are balanced by this, f4 js tied for best in the game and great frame data for a sword character, all with a huge 'Ike level' sword.

I was watching some sets of ZeRo the other day and though "****, Diddy's crazy". A lot of the Bayo uneasiness, to be polite, was generated from Leo picking Bayo. What if Leo had picked Diddy? Diddy would have top level rep again and people would be happy. Diddy has had better results than Bayo and Cloud at times in the past. People don't think of Diddy's freaking neutral, ledge traps with banana, cornucopia of safe bare minimal commitment kill setups, Fair, Dtilt, and grab game as OP. Even without ZeRo he has top 4 results.

Revising something I said a while ago: Bayo breaks the rules, Cloud is the ultimate mobile sword style character, and Diddy is the ultimate "honest character". Who's the broken one?

Very well said, you basically just summed up top 3. All 3 characters are really solid and have great tools at their disposal.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

To be fair, Diddy is a very stressful character to play in tournaments and really requires a knowledge of the neutral game. You can't just pick up Diddy and be a good Diddy player. You have to put in major work, and you need a bit of tech skill as well. You can't play Diddy without being consistent with B-reverses, which is why I play Cloud instead of Diddy. Why put in hours of work into a character that requires tech skill when there are much easier characters to play? For the very same reason, Brawl had way more MK players (MK was truly OP though), than Ice Climbers or Olimar players.

Minordeth Who are your 15 characters that can win a national? I'm curious. I personally think that any character above Meta Knight can win a national. Peach can't because Cloud and MK exist. Falcon has gotten really close, but its really only Fatality who does well with him, and Lucario is inconsistent and loses to some weird characters (Wario is probably the weirdest MU for Lucario).

Corrin could win a national, falcon probably not because Rosa exist, Luigi could potentially win a national, gotta get past those tough matchups though. That's just my two cents on what characters I believe could probably win a national.

 

[Rizen]

win a national, falcon probably not because Rosa exist, Luigi could potentially win a national,

I find this statement conflicting.

 

[Iridium]

Leo inspired/convinced me by watching him to focus on marth tbh. I think I'll put my all time on him until S5 comes out. My Mario will always stay solid. I have nothing to lose honestly. It's time. Good night and fly time for me! Till next time. pic.twitter.com/EmUHg5zQDb

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) March 26, 2018

Guys, apparently, Ally is thinking of going Marth from now on. How do you think this will go for him? I have really high expectations for him.

 

[spinalwolf]

So placebo effect?

No? Why would it be placebo effect? Its advice in case you main a character with a god awful match up and wanna win with said character. How in anyway is that related to what I'm talking about? It's advice that doesn't have to just be for the people at the top level, it can also be for people who strive to be at that level. What's hard to understand?

 

[spinalwolf]

Leo inspired/convinced me by watching him to focus on marth tbh. I think I'll put my all time on him until S5 comes out. My Mario will always stay solid. I have nothing to lose honestly. It's time. Good night and fly time for me! Till next time. pic.twitter.com/EmUHg5zQDb

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) March 26, 2018

Guys, apparently, Ally is thinking of going Marth from now on. How do you think this will go for him? I have really high expectations for him.

That would be interesting. I like his Mario but I've never seen his Marth play.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Leo inspired/convinced me by watching him to focus on marth tbh. I think I'll put my all time on him until S5 comes out. My Mario will always stay solid. I have nothing to lose honestly. It's time. Good night and fly time for me! Till next time. pic.twitter.com/EmUHg5zQDb

— Ally (@AllyUltimate) March 26, 2018

Guys, apparently, Ally is thinking of going Marth from now on. How do you think this will go for him? I have really high expectations for him.

As long as he continues to play Mario, I am fine with this!

 

[Skeeter Mania]

it can also be for people who strive to be at that level. What's hard to understand?

Is it really worth it to put in so much stock just for a video game?

 

[MH-Jin]

No? Why would it be placebo effect? Its advice in case you main a character with a god awful match up and wanna win with said character. How in anyway is that related to what I'm talking about? It's advice that doesn't have to just be for the people at the top level, it can also be for people who strive to be at that level. What's hard to understand?

I'd advise you to just ignore him. He doesn't want people to think/analyze high level or strive for getting to that level.

Ally Marth topic: if I remember correctly... Ally brought out Marth against Mew2King's Cloud and did will against him (I think this was around 2 years ago)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'd advise you to just ignore him. He doesn't want people to think/analyze high level or strive for getting to that level

Hey, don't just put words into my mouth.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

That would be interesting. I like his Mario but I've never seen his Marth play.

Ally using Marth will be interesting, I wonder how good his spacing is with him. I've never seen him use Marth much.