Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Anybody feel bad for Larry Lurr? He is among the more consistent players in the metagame, yet can never seem to take any majors, at least in recent times.

Hopefully Larry's time will come, it'll be that one S tier tourney that he'll be playing better than ever in and then he'll take it.

 

[spinalwolf]

We gonna do this again? Really? After a ZSS went on a Bayo spring cleaning?

Perspective: The top four Bayos in country, if not the world, went to a glorified regional tourney - with no international presence and missing two of the most capable anti-Bayo players - and couldn’t pull out a win.

More perspective: Bayo gets handicapped if you know what you are doing. Watch Cosmos vs Tweek to see how her damage output gets limited hard.
Watch any of the Ryu matches at Full Bloom to see how she has issues killing.

Facts: If you know what you are doing, she has to hope she can catch you with random Bair or an unsafe Dtilt -> Uair to kill you.

Umm Dtilt is not "unsafe" It's frame 7 with a good amount of range. I play a character with a similarly good Dtilt. It's punishable sure but most of the time you can throw it out with very little consequence.

 

[Minordeth]

Umm Dtilt is not "unsafe" It's frame 7 with a good amount of range. I play a character with a similarly good Dtilt. It's punishable sure but most of the time you can throw it out with very little consequence.

It is unsafe on shield at the range that it combos into Uair to kill. Max range Dtilt doesn’t combo for the kill.

 

[Rizen]

MKLeo vs Tweek as Bayo dittos...

This couldn't get any worse from the community....lol

You can't base the community on what social media trolls say. In my experience people are much better irl but maybe I just live in a nice area. Social media's a petri dish. [redacted]

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

You can't base the community on what social media trolls say. In my experience people are much better irl but maybe I just live in a nice area. Social media's a petri dish. [redacted]

Agreed, there are a lot of people who are chill irl. Social media really isn't the best place to be basing an opinion on something.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You can't base the community on what social media trolls say. In my experience people are much better irl but maybe I just live in a nice area. Social media's a petri dish. [redacted]

Agree, but since it is the main way of communication, it frustrates me.

 

[Minordeth]

Y’all want to talk about something? Here:

After losing two games with a two stock in a row to Darkshad’s Ryu, Tyroy switched off Bayo to (a pocket?) Rosa and won.

The difference in ability between his kinda basic Rosa, and his Bayo, was pretty large. But that had an inverse relationship on how much he was able to mess up Ryu.

For whatever reason, he switched back to Bayo and ended up losing the set.

Bottom line: yeah, Bayo is great. Just don’t forget you are in a game of jank, surrounded by jank. Just because Bayo has a surplus on busted tools doesn’t take away from the fact that other characters have busted tools that also happen to murder characters by default that Bayo can’t.

 

[The-Technique]

The point is that even with proper sdi, its still possible to kill up the top or get some janky kill with nair's till she takes you to the side of the blast zones. Why should I die because of one mistake I made, even though I outplayed my opponent consistently in neutral? Its not about winning majors, its about whats best and healthy for the competitive scene. Its clear no one likes Bayo. Getting rid of her would bolster more viewership for smash 4. She's unhealthy for the meta game.

Oh boy, where do I begin.

Everyone likes to meme about "just SDI" when its just one (important) aspect to fighting Bayo. SDI in general is helpful against most of the cast, just much more helpful in Bayo's case. Not only does it make her ladder combos more inconsistent, the other reason is that when you fall out of Bayo's combos it creates situations where Bayo is above you and is either forced to land with lag or give up stage control to catch the ledge. Or even better, catching her high in the air with an u-air, killing her depending on percents. In a nutshell it shortens Bayo's advantage state while also creating potential dangerous situations for her as well.

For whatever reason people only want a short, easy answer to beat this character, which I assume is why they feel so betrayed when SDI wasn't that one answer. Given how accessible Smash 4 is compared to previous games, its only natural for the majority of players to feel contempt when they're faced with a character who's actually unforgiving, in a game that's honestly way too forgiving. Infinite airdodges, better recoveries, no ledge hogs, low endlag on rolls, short easy to execute auto combos, etc. Probably the main reason we still play with 2 stocks in a game that's supposed to be faster than Brawl.

Like you're talking about getting killed by n-airs or getting killed off the top still, but are you actually thinking about how or why you were put in that situation? Did Bayo read your tech option and threw you offstage with a grab or b-air? Was that roll optimal or did you just panic in an attempt to regain stage immediately? Or are you just getting hit by n-air onstage, if so why? Did you know Bayo's n-air hitbox is mostly horizontal, easy to intercept with vertical hitboxes? And you got killed off the top despite your SDI, but were you actually SDIing in the right direction? Also why were you in the air, is it because you got hit by a full heelside or a d-tilt? Why did you get by these unsafe, punishable on block moves in the first place? Did you shield these moves but went for a greedier punish, allowing her to witch twist your commitment? I could go on longer but that won't be necessary.

I think the main issue, particularly with lower level players, is that people tunnel vision into their win condition without thinking about what their opponent is capable of and how they access their own win condition. Like for whatever reason the common mindset is "ok imma go in and hit them. wait i didnt hit them, now im down by 50%, waaaaaaaah" rather than "ok this character can do X but is vulnerable in this spot, i will plan and position my character accordingly and use my tools to exploit those moments". For example, MK Leo might not outright state these things, but you can very visibly see it in how he plays when it comes to beating top Bayonetta players back to back. When Leo wins neutral, he takes the simple guaranteed punish and backs off, holding center stage and waiting for the Bayo's answer, and acts accordingly. And when there IS a right moment to pressure Bayonetta, he does exactly that. Like for **** sake Leo wins using a relatively simple character who's widely considered not even top tier, why *no one* even attempts to emulate or learn from Leo's gameplay I have yet to figure out.

Of course people will talk about how Bayo is unfun and hurts viewership, but regarding viewership Barnard already debunked that notion with his article from not too long ago. As for how fun it is to fight Bayonetta, that's purely subjective and there's as many top players that don't have a problem with fighting her as there are top players that openly dislike her. Not "liking" a matchup isn't good enough to ban that character outright.

 

[Shaya]

Marth gets double sour fair into a third tipper fair for the stock in Leo vs Nairo winners semis set.
But according to widespread propaganda, sour spots aren't better to have than persistence.


Also
Bayo has the best or second best frame trapping in the game (if not 'best', there are more situations she's better than Cloud/etc).
"hitbox that combos into a KO move on down tilt being unsafe on block" doesn't really make sense seeing as it's -11 and if you're outside of grab range (combo hitbox =/= grab range especially on a move that retracts the entire horizontal portion of the leg within 2 frames) that's not something most chars have a punish for.
But furthermore when you consider her frame trapping nature and moves like ABK/Witch Twist for their horizontal/vertical coverage, not getting a guaranteed combo from dtilt into up air for a stock is fine if you're still able to capitalize for the stock in a multitude of ways. There's a difference between trying to avoid 50/50s like sheik up air after a throw vs the 10 different ways she bayo can hit you that could still result in death (see Mistake vs Cosmos), even with some of the best DI for vsing bayo at top level, counterplay to the counterplay is observed as Bayo continues to prove she's more capable; and even with foresight to avoid some of these traps, witch time pervades to decide stocks/games (again, see Mistake vs Cosmos).

Being forced to trap for a KO is a set-back every good character also has to deal with; factors like staleness can make or break, opportunities to get them may be far and sparse and a lot less safe.
Yet despite set backs, top players still consistently seal stocks (almost said steal socks); I doubt we can say Bayo's means are remotely as limited as other characters.

 

[Minordeth]

I could feel your rebuttal coming Shaya . I felt the intense burning through my phone. My body is ready

Also
Bayo has the best or second best frame trapping in the game (more situations she's the best at the very least).

I... guess? Better than Fox, Sheik, or Cloud? I suppose it depends how you qualify “best”.

"hitbox that combos into a KO move on down tilt being unsafe on block" doesn't really make sense seeing as it's -11 and if you're outside of grab range that's not something most chars have a punsih for.

My syntax is awful in that sentence. Check out the hitbox with the 85 degree angle, that thing is rather close to her hurtbox, man.

I don’t have a list of max ranges versus grabs for that hitbox, but various characters can punish it, especially those with decent OoS games. I don’t know how many, off the top of my head, though.

Obviously, power shielding helps, but your chance of doing so increases if you know they will try to get that set up and knowing if/how your character can punish it OoS.

Suffice it to say, it’s a less good version of Mewtwo’s dtilt.

But furthermore when you considering her frame trapping nature and moves like ABK, not getting a guaranteed combo from dtilt into up air for a stock is fine if you're still able to capitalize for the stock in a multitude of ways. There's a difference between trying to avoid 50/50s like sheik up air after a throw vs the 10 different ways she bayo can hit you that will still result in death (see Mistake vs Cosmos), even with some of the best DI for vsing bayo at top level, those things still happen, even with foresight to avoid the traps, witch time pervades to decide stocks/games (again, see Mistake vs Cosmos).

Even with frame trapping a dtilt->Uair, she has limited means to actually kill you. It varies greatly depending on situational context. But yeah, you can still get caught. But that goes for fighting every top tier character. Especially for the more stock sealing inclined. Like Fox and Mewtwo.

Also, man, as a side note, while Mistake got the drop on Cosmos in the first two games, he did die to both Uair at 76% and Up-B off the top.

Cosmos also apparently forgot one of the best anti-Bayo tools he has: DFS. He never fired a shot in all five games.

Being forced to trap for a KO is a set-back every good character also has to deal with; factors like staleness can make or break, opportunities to get them may be far and sparse and a lot less safe.
Yet despite set backs, top players still consistently seal stocks (almost said steal socks); I'm not sure if we can say Bayo's means are as limited as other characters.

I don’t know if you had the time to watch Full Bloom, but lately we’ve had some Ryu’s living forever against Bayo, especially if she can’t get a early kill. Even Cosmos had quite a few maxish rage lives against Mistake.

Regardless, I don’t mean to say that she is bad at killing, at least in absolute terms. She’s not. But Sheik players also manage to seal stocks early, too.

I don’t think Bayo is limited like some of the cast, but, let me put it this way, if I could group her stock sealing into a Best-Killers-Tier-List, she be like, A or maybe B tier. Around the same area as Mario.

Oh, who’s in S tier?

Mewtwo, ofc.

Lemme count the ways of death:

- frame 6, forward facing aerial that’s safe on shield
- frame 6 dtilt > imagination, which is absolutely safe on shield at the range it also has all the set-ups
- Shadowball.
- dumb Nair > ? > disable
- dumb jab locks that no one uses for some reason thank god
- that dumb U-throw which ends even Bowser before he can take advantage of max rage
- randy Bair
- Randy Uair

Corrin is also S tier at killing, probably.


... how did I end up on this tangent?

 

[The-Technique]

Bayo has the best or second best frame trapping in the game (if not 'best', there are more situations she's better than Cloud/etc).
"hitbox that combos into a KO move on down tilt being unsafe on block" doesn't really make sense seeing as it's -11 and if you're outside of grab range (combo hitbox =/= grab range especially on a move that retracts the entire horizontal portion of the leg within 2 frames) that's not something most chars have a punish for.

And this is one mistake many players make when fighting Bayo, when Bayo seems to do something unsafe they feel compelled to go for a hard punish.

You. Don't.

Drop your shield and jab. That's it. Yeah that's boring, yeah its not very rewarding, but you got something. Small victories add up, especially vs a character that doesn't live very long and has a long range of percents that grab combos work on.

But furthermore when you consider her frame trapping nature and moves like ABK/Witch Twist for their horizontal/vertical coverage, not getting a guaranteed combo from dtilt into up air for a stock is fine if you're still able to capitalize for the stock in a multitude of ways. There's a difference between trying to avoid 50/50s like sheik up air after a throw vs the 10 different ways she bayo can hit you that could still result in death (see Mistake vs Cosmos), even with some of the best DI for vsing bayo at top level, counterplay to the counterplay is observed as Bayo continues to prove she's more capable; and even with foresight to avoid some of these traps, witch time pervades to decide stocks/games (again, see Mistake vs Cosmos).

With a character as flexible as Bayonetta, naturally there are many different playstyles to account for. Mistake is just a straight up chaotic player that risks everything and it pays off, usually. But why not also bring up the set Cosmos had vs another Bayonetta user, Tweek, who he defeated in a dominant fashion? People keep saying that Bayonettas are continuing to evolve and will eventually become unstoppable, but didn't this whole top 8 prove the exact opposite? Not even Tweek's Bayonetta could stop Leo's Marth, and I don't believe he's dropped a single set vs a Bayonetta since...September?

Basically what I'm getting at is, yeah Bayonetta is still a fantastic character with a bunch of overtuned abilities, but the general strategies and counterplay that exist still work well to this day, and there's just so many players in this community that haven't gotten with the program.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Marth gets double sour fair into a third tipper fair for the stock in Leo vs Nairo winners semis set.
But according to widespread propaganda, sour spots aren't better to have than persistence.


Also
Bayo has the best or second best frame trapping in the game (if not 'best', there are more situations she's better than Cloud/etc).
"hitbox that combos into a KO move on down tilt being unsafe on block" doesn't really make sense seeing as it's -11 and if you're outside of grab range (combo hitbox =/= grab range especially on a move that retracts the entire horizontal portion of the leg within 2 frames) that's not something most chars have a punish for.
But furthermore when you consider her frame trapping nature and moves like ABK/Witch Twist for their horizontal/vertical coverage, not getting a guaranteed combo from dtilt into up air for a stock is fine if you're still able to capitalize for the stock in a multitude of ways. There's a difference between trying to avoid 50/50s like sheik up air after a throw vs the 10 different ways she bayo can hit you that could still result in death (see Mistake vs Cosmos), even with some of the best DI for vsing bayo at top level, counterplay to the counterplay is observed as Bayo continues to prove she's more capable; and even with foresight to avoid some of these traps, witch time pervades to decide stocks/games (again, see Mistake vs Cosmos).

Being forced to trap for a KO is a set-back every good character also has to deal with; factors like staleness can make or break, opportunities to get them may be far and sparse and a lot less safe.
Yet despite set backs, top players still consistently seal stocks (almost said steal socks); I doubt we can say Bayo's means are remotely as limited as other characters.

Well said, d tilt isn't that unsafe, especially considering a good amount of characters cannot punish it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

And this is one mistake many players make when fighting Bayo, when Bayo seems to do something unsafe they feel compelled to go for a hard punish.

You. Don't.

Drop your shield and jab. That's it. Yeah that's boring, yeah its not very rewarding, but you got something. Small victories add up, especially vs a character that doesn't live very long and has a long range of percents that grab combos work on.

Ah, mm, this is the coup de gras to your own counterargument! If you can not get a solid punish on the character for doing much of anything, really, then how reliable is the actual counterplay? Small commitments small reward, I guess it does add up.

But, then, she can make a call like that too, numerously. Plenty of small commitments. The difference lies in her reward. Her small commitments add up remarkably fast, and by the time you realize it....poof! The stock, where has it gone? Perhaps it was eaten by a Witch Time, or perhaps a Frame 4 big hitbox incredibly difficult to punish move, or maybe an edgeguard opportunity that came from a low lag, infinite active frame big hitbox neutral air? The possibilities are endless. At no point is any character able to compare their risk/reward to hers in neutral.

I've naught to see a compelling reason why anyone playing to win should not play Bayonetta. Not a one. I'd love to be convinced, but I really doubt anyone could.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Ah, mm, this is the coup de gras to your own counterargument! If you can not get a solid punish on the character for doing much of anything, really, then how reliable is the actual counterplay? Small commitments small reward, I guess it does add up.

But, then, she can make a call like that too, numerously. Plenty of small commitments. The difference lies in her reward. Her small commitments add up remarkably fast, and by the time you realize it....poof! The stock, where has it gone? Perhaps it was eaten by a Witch Time, or perhaps a Frame 4 big hitbox incredibly difficult to punish move, or maybe an edgeguard opportunity that came from a low lag, infinite active frame big hitbox neutral air? The possibilities are endless. At no point is any character able to compare their risk/reward to hers in neutral.

I've naught to see a compelling reason why anyone playing to win should not play Bayonetta. Not a one. I'd love to be convinced, but I really doubt anyone could.

It's only a matter of time before Nairo starts using Bayo as well.

 

[Nah]

Have the sets for Battle for Vegas been put up yet for viewing or is it too early for that?

Those two can abuse her frame and her lack of fast ground moves pretty well... almost more than any other character.

fam I need more than that

smash 4's twitter community is literal garbage and im happy they'll be chasing after the shiny new thing in a few months

I'd rather that the toxicity go away instead of just being transferred to another game--one that I imagine a lot of us will be playing too.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Ignore this

 

[Heracr055]

Ah, mm, this is the coup de gras to your own counterargument! If you can not get a solid punish on the character for doing much of anything, really, then how reliable is the actual counterplay? Small commitments small reward, I guess it does add up.

But, then, she can make a call like that too, numerously. Plenty of small commitments. The difference lies in her reward. Her small commitments add up remarkably fast, and by the time you realize it....poof! The stock, where has it gone? Perhaps it was eaten by a Witch Time, or perhaps a Frame 4 big hitbox incredibly difficult to punish move, or maybe an edgeguard opportunity that came from a low lag, infinite active frame big hitbox neutral air? The possibilities are endless. At no point is any character able to compare their risk/reward to hers in neutral.

I've naught to see a compelling reason why anyone playing to win should not play Bayonetta. Not a one. I'd love to be convinced, but I really doubt anyone could.

Of course you can get reliable punishes. Just not a mindless, free one that top tiers are so used to getting on the rest of the cast.
Strategies and mixups are ultimately what will prevail over Bayonetta, which players like MKLeo have done to Salem, etc (also why she doesn't top every major).
And therin lies the problem-I don't think players are doing/learning all they can about Bayo/the Bayo MU, and are more inclined to complain than think "how can I engineer a way to consistently overcome this character?" And this non-productive view will seep into Smash 5 if any character is perceived as ahead of all the others, despite the certainty it won't be anywhere near as broken as Brawl MK (which Bayo is nowhere near).

 

[MercuryPenny]

I'd rather that the toxicity go away instead of just being transferred to another game--one that I imagine a lot of us will be playing too.

yeah that's not going to happen. it's pretty obvious smash switch is going to be actively patched and they're likely using the same balance philosophy they used for smash 4, which is the balance philosophy that validated complainers a lot. plus everyone is hoping smash switch will be even bigger than smash 4...which could mean an even bigger disaster once the game inevitably stops being supported and people have to face the reality that, yes, there are objective flaws in the game's design and now you have to deal with it.

plus none of us are obligated to leave smash 4, and the circumstances are significantly less perilous than with brawl. i'm fairly certain we could get away with more than 70 entrants at solo events in the next 4 years, assuming people don't run from smash 4 like the plague

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Oh Boy, we are nearly finishing the first quarter of 2018. Time flies very fast...
Otherwise, since this quarter is nearly finished, I want to do a review of some notable players that rise up or slump down. So here you go...

THE OVERVIEW OF A COUPLE PLAYERS RESULTS THROUGHOUT QUARTER 1, 2018
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salem
PGR Ranked: 2nd
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: In 2017, Salem was widely considered one of the greatest Smash 4 players of that year (behind ZeRo) and placed 2nd at PGR. In 2018, Salem started off strong at GENESIS 5; placing 3rd while losing to MKLeo and Mistake. After that, he placed 4th at Frostbite; he was first upset by Fatality and later lost to Tweek. Conclusively, he made a second-rate 9th place at Smash Masters League Vegas by losing to Nairo and Fatality once again. Overall in Q1, Salem attend less frequently than last year (He only attends at A-Tier tournaments this year) and couldn't win prominent majors yet. Still, while his performance has declined slightly, he can still make a comeback at any time.

MKLeo
PGR Ranked: 4th
Main(s): : Secondaries:
Overview: MKLeo made a critical start in 2018. Leo was able to win GENESIS 5, EVO Japan 2018 and Umebura Tokaigi Qualif. However, after that, he made a minuscule drop by placing 2nd at Niconico Tokaigi 2018 and 3rd at Midwest Mayhem 11 while gotten upset by Zinoto. At Smash Masters League, MKLeo astonished everyone as he made a sudden Bayonetta pick against falln. Into top 8, he made a imminent loss against Nairo and was sent to losers. Into losers, MKLeo defeats Tweek 3-1 while one of the matches was a Bayonetta ditto. Pursuing retaliation, he defeats Fatality in a reverse 3-0 with his Bayonetta and 3-0d Mistake. However, his revenge fails as he was swiftly 3-0d by Nairo, placing 2nd. Throughout this year, MKLeo's performance is consistent and his results are very effective. From this, I believe he is a great contender for being the best player.

Tweek
PGR Ranked: 5th
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: Tweek is widely considered one of the most divine Cloud players of all time (Alongside MKLeo and Komorikiri). This time, however, Tweek became one of the most competent Bayonetta players. Tweek hadn't used Cloud that much as he focused on playing his Bayonetta; with that, his dominance continue to grow just like last year. With his first major tournament attendance at Frostbite, he placed 2nd with mostly Bayo. Most surprisingly, he defeated the top Bayo players, Mistake and Salem, with only Bayonetta at top 8. From this unprecedented feat of Tweek's Bayonetta, many argue that Tweek may be the best Bayonetta out there as he was competent to win King of the Springs 3, EGLX 2018 and Rise 2018 with mostly Bayonetta. Finally, at Smash Masters Vegas, he placed 5th while losing to MKLeo which was a respectable loss. From his dominance, we will likely see Tweek seeking his best for being the best Smasher as his dominance with his Bayonetta gives him a boost on wins and results.

Nairo
PGR Ranked: 3rd
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: Nairo is widely considered to be one of the consistent players out there, and It is no slouch to say that Nairo did take it all. With his trusty Zero-Suit, Nairo made a legitimate start at GENESIS 5 by placing 4th. After his 4th place at GENESIS 5, Nairo traveled to Japan and attend Niconico Tokaigi 2018. Facing MKLeo in Grand Finals, Nairo was able to take down MKLeo and win the tourney, despite Leo's undisputed dominance at GENESIS 5 and EVO Japan. After his win at Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he had been in a brief pauses as he hadn't attend any major tournaments until Smash Masters League Vegas. Nevertheless, Nairo was able to pull a 1st place finish at Smash Masters League Vegas while beating most of the Bayonetta players such as Mistake, MKLeo, Salem, and CaptainZack. While his brief interruptions prompted people to question about Nairo, Nairo winning Smash Masters proves that even in a short inactivity, Nairo will nevertheless be a threat. From this, it will not be suprising that Nairo will be the best, but he still must fight against dominant players such as MKLeo, Tweek, and Mistake to collect the crown.

Mistake
PGR Ranked: 13th
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: Mistake throughout Q3 of 2017 was astonishing. This Canadian Bayonetta player was able to take down the likes of Salem, CaptainZack, ZeRo, and many others while placing fantastic in tourneys such as 5th at Super Smash Con. Be that as it may, Mistake made a steep decline at Q4 as his performance grew more inconsistent. Some people dubbed him the "one-hit wonder" at one point and predicts that Mistake will never reach his peak perfomance after his sudden decline. Nonetheless, it was about to change, starting GENESIS 5. In GENESIS 5, he was gotten upset by a Mr. Game & Watch main, Maister and was sent to losers. One may argue that Mistake couldn't even make through top 32 and into top 8, but they are fooled for Mistake had made one of the most impressive losers run in Smash 4 history. Throughout losers, Mistake 2-0d ANTi, 3-2 Konga, 3-0 Javi, 3-1 WaDi, 3-1 K9sbruce, 3-0 falln, 3-2 Dabuz, 3-2 Nairo, and 3-0 Salem. However, his god-like losers run had ended as he lost to MKLeo 3-1. Since he fantastic 2nd place after his risky losers run performance, he still made a superb performance since then as he stood 3rd at Frostbite 2018, 4th at EGLX 2018, and 3rd Smash Master League Vegas. By the looks of his fantastic performance, it will be believable that Mistake could have a chance to win a major someday; and if so, Mistake will be one of the most significant threats as his performance could likely give him potental for being the best.

Dabuz
PGR Ranked: 6th
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: Dabuz, the Mr. Consistent of Smash. Despite his cheerful personality, he is a feisty player in Smash. It is no surprise that Dabuz have done really well throughout Q1 2018. In GENESIS 5, he placed 5th. In King of Springs 3, he placed 3rd. Since then Dabuz has made a slew of 1st placements at Frostbite 2018, Xenosaga XIII, Midwest Mayhem 11, and Overclocked II. By the surplus of wins at many tournaments he enter, it is by no surprise that Dabuz will be the candidate of being the best Smash 4 in PGR 5.

Larry Lurr
PGR Ranked: 7th
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: Larry Lurr was one of the most effective player out there and a candidate for being the best. However, this year, Larry Lurr wasn't living out well. In GENESIS 5, Larry Lurr made an embarrassing 17th place by losing to Javi and Lima. In Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he was double eliminated by Tsu-, placing 5th. At No Fun Allowed 2, he positioned 5th once again. At Kawaii Kon 2018, he finally place 1st while defeating VoiD. However, he was placed at a average 9th at EGLX 2018. In Smash Masters League, he was bodied by Cosmos 1-3 and Fatality 0-3, placing 7th. Although his results may be respectable, you need to realize that Larry Lurr is currently placed 7th at the current PGR and having these placements are bad. It is unknown whether Larry Lurr will be able to prompt it back but only time will tell..

Fatality
PGR Ranked: 38th
Main(s) Secondaries:
Overview: Fatality was widely considered to be the best Falcon main ever. His fantastic 2nd place at 2GGC: Civil War and MomoCon while able to defeat the best player in the world was in no doubt extremely impressive. However, after the first half of 2017, Fatality made a huge slump in performance. Instead of fantastic placings during his 1/2 2017, he made many mediocre placings throughout the second-half. Similar to Mistake, this aggressive Falcon main was able to return to his former glory once again, this time MUCH more consistent and better. Despite his 17th place at GENESIS 5 and being losing to two non-PGR players, Maister and Peli, he made a unthinkable return at Frostbite 2018. With solo Captain Falcon, a high tier character with many losing MUs and a terrible disadvantage, Fatality was able to make it through top 8 while beating Salem and Cosmos. However, Fatality placed 5th while losing to Mistake and Salem. After this, Fatality made a fantastic 2nd place at King of the Springs 3 while defeating Cosmos, WaDi, Samsora, and, for the first time, Dabuz. Despite his rather poor placement at EGLX, he nevertheless cleared Smash Masters Vegas at 4th place while beating Xzax, Ally, Salem, Larry Lurr, and Cosmos. His fantastic wins helped the Falcon meta drastically and give Fatality a possibility of being top 10 in the upcoming PGR.

Cosmos
PGR Ranked: 17th
Main(s) Secondaries: N/A
Overview: Since the Big House 7, Cosmos is widely considered to be the most divine Corrin player out there, able to take down the likes of ZeRo, Salem, and many others. This year is a prominent year for Cosmos. He placed 7th at Frostbite 2018 while beating WaDi and Shoyo James. He was unfortunately lost to Fatality 0-3 and Mr. R 3-2. After Frostbite, Cosmos attend King of the Springs 3 where he secured 4th, losing to Fatality once again. Finally, he entered Smash Masters Vegas where he placed 5th, losing to Fatality 3-0 once again. Although Cosmos have generated commandable results in Q1 2018, he has a hard time against Fatality and he hadn't enter many tournaments. Otherwise, Cosmos's results are good enough to secure Corrin's status as a high/top tier character.

ESAM
PGR Ranked: 21st
Main(s): Secondaries:
Overview: ESAM is usually very good Pikachu player. This year, ESAM does certainly well. At GENESIS 5, he was able to take down Mr. R and enter to top 8. In top 8, he faced against Nairo for the first time since an extensive time. Despite ESAM's prediction of him winning against Nairo because Pika vs ZSS MUs is 60-40 MU Pika favor (ESAM's opinion), he wasn't able to challenge Nairo as Nairo made a complete 3-0 against ESAM. From this, ESAM finished 7th place. Next, ESAM enters EVO Japan 2018 where he lost to Sigma, securing 13th. After a brief hiatus, ESAM made a brief return at EGLX 2018. Starting off strong in top 32 winners, ESAM defeated Fatality 3-1 and Mistake 3-0. Nevertheless, ESAM was unfortunate enough to be double eliminated by WaDi, both 1-3 at Winners Semi-Finals and Losers Finals, securing 3rd. ESAM retain pride with his Pikachu and this year clearly shows it. From an impressive 7th place finish at GENESIS 5 to 3rd place at EGLX, ESAM will surely strive his best to become a top 10 player and will show everyone what Pikachu is made of.

So that is my overview of a couple of top players I saw that made a rise or slump in Q1.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bayo can potentially be S tier in killing but it depends on if we consider ladders a part of it? If we look at her moves playing out her smash attacks need a read or witch time to get off.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Oh Boy, we are nearly finishing the first quarter of 2018. Time flies very fast...
Otherwise, since this quarter is nearly finished, I want to do a review of some notable players that rise up or slump down.

Salem: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: In 2017, Salem was widely considered one of the greatest Smash 4 players of that year (behind ZeRo) and placed 2nd at PGR. In 2018, Salem started off strong at GENESIS 5; placing 3rd while losing to MKLeo and Mistake. After that, he placed 4th at Frostbite; he was first upset by Fatality and later lost to Tweek. Conclusively, he made a second-rate 9th place at Smash Masters League Vegas by losing to Nairo and Fatality once again. Overall in Q1, Salem attend less frequently than last year (He only attends at A-Tier tournaments this year) and couldn't win prominent majors yet. Still, while his performance has declined slightly, he can still make a comeback at any time.

MKLeo: Main(s): : Secondaries:
My review: MKLeo made a critical start in 2018. Leo was able to win GENESIS 5, EVO Japan 2018 and Umebura Tokaigi Qualif. However, after that, he made a minuscule drop by placing 2nd at Niconico Tokaigi 2018 and 3rd at Midwest Mayhem 11 while gotten upset by Zinoto. At Smash Masters League, MKLeo astonished everyone as he made a sudden Bayonetta pick against falln. Into top 8, he made a imminent loss against Nairo and was sent to losers. Into losers, MKLeo defeats Tweek 3-1 while one of the matches was a Bayonetta ditto. Pursuing retaliation, he defeats Fatality in a reverse 3-0 with his Bayonetta and 3-0d Mistake. However, his revenge fails as he was swiftly 3-0d by Nairo, placing 2nd. Throughout this year, MKLeo's performance is consistent and his results are very effective. From this, I believe he is a great contender for being the best player.

Tweek: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: Tweek is widely considered one of the most divine Cloud players of all time (Alongside MKLeo and Komorikiri). This time, however, Tweek became one of the most competent Bayonetta players. Tweek hadn't used Cloud that much as he focused on playing his Bayonetta; with that, his dominance continue to grow just like last year. With his first major tournament attendance at Frostbite, he placed 2nd with mostly Bayo. Most surprisingly, he defeated the top Bayo players, Mistake and Salem, with only Bayonetta at top 8. From this unprecedented feat of Tweek's Bayonetta, many argue that Tweek may be the best Bayonetta out there as he was competent to win King of the Springs 3, EGLX 2018 and Rise 2018 with mostly Bayonetta. Finally, at Smash Masters Vegas, he placed 5th while losing to MKLeo which was a respectable loss. From his dominance, we will likely see Tweek seeking his best for being the best Smasher as his dominance with his Bayonetta gives him a boost on wins and results.

Nairo: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: Nairo is widely considered to be one of the consistent players out there, and It is no slouch to say that Nairo did take it all. With his trusty Zero-Suit, Nairo made a legitimate start at GENESIS 5 by placing 4th. After his 4th place at GENESIS 5, Nairo traveled to Japan and attend Niconico Tokaigi 2018. Facing MKLeo in Grand Finals, Nairo was able to take down MKLeo and win the tourney, despite Leo's undisputed dominance at GENESIS 5 and EVO Japan. After his win at Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he had been in a brief pauses as he hadn't attend any major tournaments until Smash Masters League Vegas. Nevertheless, Nairo was able to pull a 1st place finish at Smash Masters League Vegas while beating most of the Bayonetta players such as Mistake, MKLeo, Salem, and CaptainZack. While his brief interruptions prompted people to question about Nairo, Nairo winning Smash Masters proves that even in a short inactivity, Nairo will nevertheless be a threat. From this, it will not be suprising that Nairo will be the best, but he still must fight against dominant players such as MKLeo, Tweek, and Mistake to collect the crown.

Mistake: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: Mistake throughout Q3 of 2017 was astonishing. This Canadian Bayonetta player was able to take down the likes of Salem, CaptainZack, ZeRo, and many others while placing fantastic in tourneys such as 5th at Super Smash Con. Be that as it may, Mistake made a steep decline at Q4 as his performance grew more inconsistent. Some people dubbed him the "one-hit wonder" at one point and predicts that Mistake will never reach his peak perfomance after his sudden decline. Nonetheless, it was about to change, starting GENESIS 5. In GENESIS 5, he was gotten upset by a Mr. Game & Watch main, Maister and was sent to losers. One may argue that Mistake couldn't even make through top 32 and into top 8, but they are fooled for Mistake had made one of the most impressive losers run in Smash 4 history. Throughout losers, Mistake 2-0d ANTi, 3-2 Konga, 3-0 Javi, 3-1 WaDi, 3-1 K9sbruce, 3-0 falln, 3-2 Dabuz, 3-2 Nairo, and 3-0 Salem. However, his god-like losers run had ended as he lost to MKLeo 3-1. Since he fantastic 2nd place after his risky losers run performance, he still made a superb performance since then as he stood 3rd at Frostbite 2018, 4th at EGLX 2018, and 3rd Smash Master League Vegas. By the looks of his fantastic performance, it will believable that Mistake could have a chance to win a major someday; and if so, Mistake will be one of the most substantial threat as his performance could likely give him potental for being the best.

Dabuz: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: Dabuz, the Mr. Consistent of Smash. Despite his cheerful personality, he is a feisty player in Smash. It is no surprise that Dabuz have done really well throughout Q1 2018. In GENESIS 5, he placed 5th. In King of Springs 3, he placed 3rd. Since then Dabuz has made a slew of 1st placements at Frostbite 2018, Xenosaga XIII, Midwest Mayhem 11, and Overclocked II. By the surplus of wins at many tournaments, he enter, it is by no surprise that Dabuz will be the candidate of being the best Smash 4 in PGR 5.

Larry Lurr: Main(s): Secondaries:
My review: Larry Lurr was one of the most effective player out there and a candidate for being the best. However, this year, Larry Lurr wasn't living out well. In GENESIS 5, Larry Lurr made an embarrassing 17th place by losing to Javi and Lima. In Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he was double eliminated by Tsu-, placing 5th. At No Fun Allowed 2, he positioned 5th once again. At Kawaii Kon 2018, he finally place 1st while defeating VoiD. However, he was placed at a average 9th at EGLX 2018. In Smash Masters League, he was bodied by Cosmos 1-3 and Fatality 0-3, placing 7th. Although his results may be respectable, you need to realize that Larry Lurr is currently placed 7th at the current PGR and having these placements are bad. It is unknown whether Larry Lurr will be able to prompt it back but only time will tell..

Fatality: Main(s) Secondaries: N/A
My review: Fatality was widely considered to be the best Falcon main ever. His fantastic 2nd place at 2GGC: Civil War and MomoCon while able to defeat the best player in the world was in no doubt extremely impressive. However, after the first half of 2017, Fatality made a huge slump in performance. Instead of fantastic placings during his 1/2 2017, he made many mediocre placings throughout the second-half. Similar to Mistake, this aggressive Falcon main was able to return to his former glory once again, this time MUCH more consistent and better. Despite his 17th place at GENESIS 5 and being losing to two non-PGR players, Maister and Peli, he made a unthinkable return at Frostbite 2018. With solo Captain Falcon, a high tier character with many losing MUs and a terrible disadvantage, Fatality was able to make it through top 8 while beating Salem and Cosmos. However, Fatality placed 5th while losing to Mistake and Salem. After this, Fatality made a fantastic 2nd place at King of the Springs 3 while defeating Cosmos, WaDi, Samsora, and, for the first time, Dabuz. Despite his rather poor placement at EGLX, he nevertheless cleared Smash Masters Vegas at 4th place while beating Xzax, Ally, Salem, Larry Lurr, and Cosmos. His fantastic wins helped the Falcon meta drastically and give Fatality a possibility of being top 10 in the upcoming PGR.

So that is my overview of a couple of top players I saw that made a rise or slump in Q1.

Thanks for posting this information about the players, it is appreciated.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

hahaha people if you think that smash switch will be more balanced that smash 4 from the get go you are going to be disappointed, it took 2+ years for some characters to be even functional in smash 4, now add more characters to the mix not even counting DLC characters and you have a recipe for disaster(tell me what game with a +60 roster is considered balanced because i dont remember any), we will have the same circlejerk of smash 4 only with different characters, unless the developers for smash 5 and the competitive community start to change things up, this is a 2 sides problem and i dont think that any side have enough experience yet to improve this issue.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

hahaha people if you think that smash switch will be more balanced that smash 4 from the get go you are going to be disappointed, it took 2+ years for some characters to be even functional in smash 4, now add more characters to the mix not even counting DLC characters and you have a recipe for disaster(tell me what game with a +60 roster is considered balanced because i dont remember any), we will have the same circlejerk of smash 4 only with different characters, unless the developers for smash 5 and the competitive community start to change things up, this is a 2 sides problem and i dont think that any side have enough experience yet to improve this issue.

Ok, this time more to clarify. Smash 4 did a great job at balancing the character roster. It has 58 characters in total in this game yet the gap between Top Tier to High Tier and High Tier to Mid Tier are much smaller in comparison to Smash Brawl and Melee.

The year gap between Smash 4 and Switch is the second smallest (the smallest is 64 and Melee with 2 years gap difference) which sorta worries me. However, I know that if there are unbalance characters or glitches, there are always patches to clear things up.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Each game is more balanced than the last.

i think every word of this sentence is as incorrect as-

Smash have been in each iteration ever.

-this one is incoherent

 

[JustCallMeJon]

i think every word of this sentence is as incorrect as-


-this one is incoherent

Sorry, I am nearly leaving the school and I just saw this reply.. quickly replying with my phone without looking at the argument clearly and I could have enough time to realize and explain it fully but time goes fast and I need to leave though.

Otherwise, thank you for your response

 

[spinalwolf]

Smash have been in each iteration ever. Each game is more balanced than the last. Who knows but I can surely tell that Sakurai will hopefully try to put his efforts to balance the game. If the game is unbalanced there is always patches.

What? No they aren't. Smash 64 is arguably the most balanced smash game to date even when compared to smash 4. Melee I would argue is even more balanced than brawl. Atleast with Melee there was no character that dominated the meta as hard as Metaknight. Brawl MK was absolutely ridiculous. Melee Fox could only dream to be as dominate in his own meta game. Brawl was a god awful unbalanced mess, but then again so was melee, but I would argue to a lesser extent.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

What? No they aren't. Smash 64 is arguably the most balanced smash game to date even when compared to smash 4. Melee I would argue is even more balanced than brawl. Atleast with Melee there was no character that dominated the meta as hard as Metaknight. Brawl MK was absolutely ridiculous. Melee Fox could only dream to be as dominate in his own meta game. Brawl was a god awful unbalanced mess, but then again so was melee, but I would argue to a lesser extent.

I rewritten it, I previously post it slopply because I was about to leave out of school...
Otherwise, I agree that Smash 4 is one of the more balance roster out there. To make things more impressive, Smash 4 has 58 characters in total yet it's roster wasn't as unbalance than Melee and Brawl. Still, patches played a significant role on patching big issues, which really help improve the Smash 4 roster. If Smash Switch was released and the roster is a broken mess, unlike Brawl and Melee, there are patches waiting to be sent.

 

[spinalwolf]

I rewritten it, I previously post it slopply because I was about to leave out of school...
Otherwise, I agree that Smash 4 is one of the more balance roster out there. To make things more impressive, Smash 4 has 58 characters in total yet it's roster wasn't as unbalance than Melee and Brawl. Still, patches played a significant role on patching big issues, which really help improve the Smash 4 roster. If Smash Switch was released and the roster is a broken mess, unlike Brawl and Melee, there are patches waiting to be sent.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree that patches really helped make smash 4 the balanced game that it is. Even Bayo (who I complain about admittedly) despite being the best character and having options in her kit I absolutely despise, she is no where near as godly as Brawl MK was and even pre patch Diddy was more dominant *shivers thinking about pre patch Diddy*. Prepatch Bayo though. Now don't even get me started.

 

[The-Technique]

Ah, mm, this is the coup de gras to your own counterargument! If you can not get a solid punish on the character for doing much of anything, really, then how reliable is the actual counterplay? Small commitments small reward, I guess it does add up.

But, then, she can make a call like that too, numerously. Plenty of small commitments. The difference lies in her reward. Her small commitments add up remarkably fast, and by the time you realize it....poof! The stock, where has it gone? Perhaps it was eaten by a Witch Time, or perhaps a Frame 4 big hitbox incredibly difficult to punish move, or maybe an edgeguard opportunity that came from a low lag, infinite active frame big hitbox neutral air? The possibilities are endless. At no point is any character able to compare their risk/reward to hers in neutral.

I've naught to see a compelling reason why anyone playing to win should not play Bayonetta. Not a one. I'd love to be convinced, but I really doubt anyone could.

Uhh, yeah. Bayonetta is a combo character, certain exchanges will be more rewarding for her. Why do I get the sense that any sort of nuance is completely disregarded when it comes to the subject of Bayonetta? My point was that you have to *read* the situation, not just auto pilot for the same punish or option every time. Sometimes there's a right time to get the hard punish, but other times its safer to get quick simple punish and back off. Moreover, you didn't refute anything I said, in fact your post pretty much embodies the self-defeating non-productive mindset players in this community have that I mentioned previously.

But okay. Sure, we'll play it your way. Yeah small victories go both ways, and sometimes Bayo can get a big chunk of reward due to the nature of her tools. Geez I guess playing a solid neutral and having competent SDI don't matter after all. Boy it must suck playing with a character like Marth who doesn't earn a great deal of reward from winning individual exchanges, I mean how could you possibly win against Bayonetta with a character like that? Right?

...right?

Yeah no **** the Bayonetta player can employ the same tactics to her advantage, its almost like the outcome of the game ultimately favors the more skilled, practiced player. No one wants to hear that, though. After all if there isn't one *singular* strategy that can be used to beat Bayonetta at all stages of the game, then why bother? Doing things like optimizing your character's gameplan, coming up with strategies, analyzing your mistakes and correcting them, nah screw all that noise. We aren't a competitive community or anything, right? What an absurd expectation to have of us.

 

[Rizen]

IDK why we're talking about this but in terms of character balance the order is: most SSB4>Melee*>SSB64>Brawl least. Are people forgetting all the jank bad characters had to deal with in the past like infinites and chain grabs?

Admittedly, IDK Melee's competitive meta very well :/

 

[MarioManTAW]

IDK why we're talking about this but in terms of character balance the order is: most SSB4>Melee>SSB64>Brawl least. Are people forgetting all the jank bad characters had to deal with in the past like infinites and chain grabs?

First time I've ever heard someone say Melee is more balanced than 64...

 

[Rizen]

First time I've ever heard someone say Melee is more balanced than 64...

IDK melee very well. I edited my post.

The point is SSB4 is easily the most balanced game. People just complain about everything because the internet.

 

[spinalwolf]

IDK why we're talking about this but in terms of character balance the order is: most SSB4>Melee*>SSB64>Brawl least. Are people forgetting all the jank bad characters had to deal with in the past like infinites and chain grabs?

Admittedly, IDK Melee's competitive meta very well :/

Melee more balanced than smash 64? .....in what world?

 

[spinalwolf]

IDK melee very well. I edited my post.

nevermind disregard my previous post hehe

 

[MercuryPenny]

tbh i'd call it a stretch to call smash 4 more well-balanced than 64

 

[spinalwolf]

tbh i'd call it a stretch to call smash 4 more well-balanced than 64

It could be argued that for a game with 58 characters, its amazingly well balanced, but yeah I think smash 64 still holds the title for the most balanced smash. Any character in that game can win a major or at the very least get high in bracket.

 

[Rizen]

tbh i'd call it a stretch to call smash 4 more well-balanced than 64

SSB64 meta centralized pikachu. It didn't have any bad or even MUs. Looking at the tier list here, Pika is the uncontested best character.

In SSB4 we're still arguing who's the best between Cloud, Bayo, Diddy and sometimes Sheik. Although recently it's leaning toward Bayo. At least for bad MUs, Cloud has Sheik and Bayo has several even MUs and maybe a loss or 2. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik has a lot of arguable MUs but we can all agree she at best goes even with several characters.

 

[spinalwolf]

SSB64 meta centralized pikachu. It didn't have any bad or even MUs. Looking at the tier list here, Pika is the uncontested best character.

In SSB4 we're still arguing who's the best between Cloud, Bayo, Diddy and sometimes Sheik. Although recently it's leaning toward Bayo. At least Cloud has Sheik and Bayo has several even MUs and maybe a loss or 2. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik has a lot of arguable MUs but we can all agree she at best goes even with several characters.

Pikachu wasn't even that dominant in the 64 meta. In fact some actually argue Kirby is the best character in the game. Falcon has also been debated to go even with pika. Matchups in 64 are very much winnable. Even the worst ones. (except for dk vs kirby in the japanese release. That MU is just so brutal).

the vast majority of competitive smash 4 players agree that Bayo is the best character in the game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

SSB64 meta centralized pikachu. It didn't have any bad or even MUs. Looking at the tier list here, Pika is the uncontested best character.

In SSB4 we're still arguing who's the best between Cloud, Bayo, Diddy and sometimes Sheik. Although recently it's leaning toward Bayo. At least for bad MUs, Cloud has Sheik and Bayo has several even MUs and maybe a loss or 2. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik has a lot of arguable MUs but we can all agree she at best goes even with several characters.

I'd say that Rosa has the most dominant matchup spread in the game, but she has a few notable disadvantages matchups (although it isn't too severe). Bayo, Cloud, Sheik, Rosa, and Diddy has the most amount of advantage matchups. I'd say Bayo (or maybe Sheik) has the least amount of losing matchups, but her winning matchups aren't as dominant as the other top 5 characters.

Pikachu wasn't even that dominant in the 64 meta. In fact some actually argue Kirby is the best character in the game. Falcon has also been debated to go even with pika. Matchups in 64 are very much winnable. Even the worst ones. (except for dk vs kirby in the japanese release. That MU is just so brutal).

Japan DK in SSB64 is considered almost Brawl Ganon levels of bad, and is the only close to unloseable matchup in SSB64.

 

[Rizen]

Pikachu wasn't even that dominant in the 64 meta. In fact some actually argue Kirby is the best character in the game. Falcon has also been debated to go even with pika. Matchups in 64 are very much winnable. Even the worst ones. (except for dk vs kirby in the japanese release. That MU is just so brutal).

the vast majority of competitive smash 4 players agree that Bayo is the best character in the game.

No one's arguing Kirby's better than Pikachu in 64. No one. Seriously if people are denying Pika was the best ssb64 character I'm checking out of this conversation.