Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fenny]

Tons of people are realizing "wow, its not as bad as we thought" once they stop running into aerials, stop murdering themselves in a futile attempt to stop limit, and start powershielding, abusing his ground game, and abusing his offstage game to rack damage and get kills as a side effect instead of ruining all their progress getting ledge drop jump uair'd.

stop murdering themselves in a futile attempt to stop limit

This

So, so much this

 

[Juno97]

lol

Top 16 Weighted Top 10: (Sep. 1st-20th)
(102.2)
(84.5)
(83)
(82.5)
(80)
(64.5)
(54)
(52)
(49)
/(47)

Weekend stuff:

2GGT: Abadango Saga (SoCal) (Will be Category 3, for those asking)
The Proving Ground (Michigan)
Glitch 2 (Maryland)
Who's Your Pappy #4 (NorCal)
Smash @ York #11: The Return (Ontario)
Sumabato 13 (Japan)

Good previous weekend for Cloud McFox

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Potential candidates, based on what various top players have said:



One of those 7 is probably the best character... Well, probably not PIkachu. So, yeah, you have a pretty good point about the lack of consensus.

I'd argue Pikachu is better than Ryu tbh
He doesn't have issues getting camped out, his playstyle is much more flexible, recovery is amazing, etc. The only thing Ryu has over him is consistent kill power (obviously) and lower landing lag overall

With Esam stepping up his game and working hard to prove his claim that Pikachu is a top tier, I wouldn't be surprised if the rat gets brought up more.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Lack of Mario in that suspected #1 list of characters confuses me utterly.

 

[Aaron1997]

Here something else for people to talk about...

Hitomoshi (Zard) vs Ron (Best Mario in Japan)

Vs Kie (Best Peach)

Vs Ri-ma (One of the best Tinks)

Also as a bonus if your looking for a good Mac set.

// (yes that's his tag) vs Ri-ma

 

[FeelMeUp]

Someone that loses to at least 7-10 characters cannot be looked at as #1 while there's a few characters with around 1-4 bad MUs(Sheik, Sonic, M2) at most.
Still don't get where this insanely high opinion of Mario is coming from.

 

[Myollnir]

As the game evolves I'm starting to think that Sheik and Sonic will rise above the other characters. They still have a lot more to offer. I don't think Mario and Cloud can be #1. I'm not sure about Diddy ; he's really solid, but can his metagame progress? Will he still be considered #1 with people getting better and better and exploring every other top tier's options? Time will tell.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

As the game evolves I'm starting to think that Sheik and Sonic will rise above the other characters. They still have a lot more to offer. I don't think Mario and Cloud can be #1. I'm not sure about Diddy ; he's really solid, but can his metagame progress? Will he still be considered #1 with people getting better and better and exploring every other top tier's options? Time will tell.

Diddy can still progress in the same way Sheik has. Like Sheik, his solid neutral is where it is and will probably stay there for a while (which isn't really a bad thing) but his combos aren't completely optimized and his players haven't even attempted to start optimizing them to the same level as the Sheik players. Things like nair > footstool > dair reset > nair > footstool > dair > footstool > nair > followup or fthrow > fair > dtilt > pp utilt > bair x2 (may not be 100% true, needs more labbing) aren't even being looked at even though they do a ****load of damage and are relatively easy to perform

 

[blackghost]

Someone that loses to at least 7-10 characters cannot be looked at as #1 while there's a few characters with around 1-4 bad MUs(Sheik, Sonic, M2) at most.
Still don't get where this insanely high opinion of Mario is coming from.

its easy people confuse the skill of Ally and AnTi with the tools of the character. people did the same thing (although temporarily) with dk and ness.

 

[Ethan7]

Things like nair > footstool > dair reset > nair > footstool > dair > footstool > nair > followup or fthrow > fair > dtilt > pp utilt > bair x2

Where did you hear of these things?

Someone that loses to at least 7-10 characters cannot be looked at as #1 while there's a few characters with around 1-4 bad MUs(Sheik, Sonic, M2) at most.
Still don't get where this insanely high opinion of Mario is coming from.

Maybe they have different opinions on his match-ups than you. It's not like everybody puts him in top 5 anyways, considering his results at majors.

 

[Megamang]

Theres something up with diddys dtilt usmash. Some are saying it can be DI'd and airdodged, with compelling evidence. Others say its at least a 50/50 with DI in and out. Id hazard a guess its one of the two on a char by char basis.

Larry Lurr goes flying out really consistently. Ill look for the set, but i knew he was doing something different.


This could really hurt diddy. Consistency is his thing right? His gameplan is solid, then you die when your char dies to usmash. If it isnt till you die to dtilt fair... its really gonna hurt him. Ive come back and won not infrequently when usmash doesnt connect right once, so if its a consistent thing, ouch.


Why why why WHY isnt there a record function in training. Ugh.

 

[TDK]

I think if Diddy will fall, it's because of his recovery. As people get more optimized, it's possible that he'll be forced offstage more often and people will learn to edgeguard Diddy in a cloud-esque scenario. Should be interesting.

 

[arbustopachon]

Gotta keep an eye on hitomoshi, his edgeguarding and juggling were pretty on point. He really shows how explosive Zard's advantage state can be.

Also those sets really show how you should never take the lizard to battlefield. Zard loves platforms.

 

[Y2Kay]

Here something else for people to talk about...

Hitomoshi (Zard) vs Ron (Best Mario in Japan)

Vs Kie (Best Peach)

Vs Ri-ma (One of the best Tinks)

Also as a bonus if your looking for a good Mac set.

// (yes that's his tag) vs Ri-ma

Damn that Charizard is good . . . .

I'm sorry but that doesn't look like a bottom tier character to me.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Where did you hear of these things?

I've been labbing Diddy for ~3 days now. Started playing him about 2 weeks ago and don't want to really get competitive with him until I have him optimized to the best of my ability.

Gotta keep an eye on hitomoshi, his edgeguarding and juggling were pretty on point. He really shows how explosive Zard's advantage state can be.

Also those sets really show how you should never take the lizard to battlefield. Zard loves platforms.

Damn that Charizard is good . . . .

I'm sorry but that doesn't look like a bottom tier character to me.

Zard is way to mobile to be a bottom tier and combined with the damage output and range of his aerials he probably has the best neutral of the super heavies. His ledge game is in another league compared to Bowser and DK's with upsmash covering 2 (3?) options at once, flamethrower forcing them off the ledge, dsmash for 2 frames, and nair/fair for catching jumps. His extra midair jump + high bkb gives him a very threatening offstage game.

 

[thehard]

Theres something up with diddys dtilt usmash. Some are saying it can be DI'd and airdodged, with compelling evidence. Others say its at least a 50/50 with DI in and out. Id hazard a guess its one of the two on a char by char basis.

Larry Lurr goes flying out really consistently. Ill look for the set, but i knew he was doing something different.


This could really hurt diddy. Consistency is his thing right? His gameplan is solid, then you die when your char dies to usmash. If it isnt till you die to dtilt fair... its really gonna hurt him. Ive come back and won not infrequently when usmash doesnt connect right once, so if its a consistent thing, ouch.


Why why why WHY isnt there a record function in training. Ugh.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/52otdj/diddys_dtiltusmash_as_a_ko_combo_is_mostly/ This?

 

[Ethan7]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/52otdj/diddys_dtiltusmash_as_a_ko_combo_is_mostly/ This?

Something I just realized about this is that he may have not jump-canceled u-smashed which explains a lot if that is the case. Also, you cannot react to d-tilt so this isn't going to happen unless you read it. In regards to SDI, if I go to training mode in 1/4th speed and quarter-circle SDI I cannot really escape the third hit (I only tested a little bit and with like one character).

It could be where Diddy lands the u-smash that results in people flying out. Just don't spread false information, please.

 

[Aaron1997]

Since there is no post about this. Sumabato is going on tonight on SHI.

Feat.

Earth
9B
Edge
Fuwa
HIKARU
OCEAN
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Goma
Shogun
SH
You3
Ginko
Masashi
Oisiitofu
Kie
Kuro
Aki
Saiya
Rin

There's probably more I'm missing because I'm bad at Japanese lol. There's chance for someone new to win because no Komo

 

[sedrf]

https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-conference-lxvii/brackets/
Staacked smash conference is on

 

[FamilyTeam]

Since there is no post about this. Sumabato is going on tonight on SHI.

Feat.

Earth
9B
Edge
Fuwa
HIKARU
OCEAN
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Goma
Shogun
You3
Ginko
Masashi
Oisiitofu
Kie
Kuro
Aki

There's probably more I'm missing because I'm bad at Japanese lol. There's chance for someone new to win because no Komo

What's the original page? And what's the player list? Some of us can read Japanese.

 

[Megamang]

I made a chart to help with diddy.


Are you near him on the ground?
Are you at kill percent to usmash?


If 2 yesses, he will dtilt.


...


Seriously though, there are many times you can react. Banana hit, you whiff a SH aerial and he is in range... you just mash SDI inputs while doing your other option (whatever you were going to do, jump away, roll, whatever... just add intense direction mashing).


But yes, i was purposely not using language to say it was certain. Again, if there was a record function id be testing but i cant JCusmash and SDI with the other hand.

Edit: but he did address the jump canceling, basically it shouldn't effect frame advantage. But it seems it would, since getting there sooner is essentially giving you more frames. Idk.

 

[Aaron1997]

What's the original page? And what's the player list? Some of us can read Japanese.

http://kokucheese.com/event/subscriptions/424060/

http://kokucheese.com/event/subscriptions/424054/
This one is for people bring set-ups I believe

 

[Nah]

Zard is way to mobile to be a bottom tier

idk if I'd call Zard mobile really. It has a great run speed and an above average top walk speed and good traction, but that's it really. It's like when people people say that Roy is mobile, but he's not really mobile, he just moves really fast in one direction.

But I do agree that Zard is not bottom tier (but probably low tier rather).

 

[JayE]

idk if I'd call Zard mobile really. It has a great run speed and an above average top walk speed, but that's it really. It's like when people people say that Roy is mobile, but he's not really mobile, he just moves really fast in one direction.

But I do agree that Zard is not bottom tier (but probably low tier rather).

But a large part of mobility is speed and quickness. Roy has those attirbutes. Mobility is the ability to move freely and easily, and with Roy you can do that. And he's not just fast in one direction, he's fast moving in general, top 10 in speed and is a fastfaller. I guess he doesn't have a move like flip jump or bouncing fish that allows him to go super far, but he can get to places because of how quick he is.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Ah, alright...
After brushing up my old Kanji dictionary and reading through really crap katakana engrish, here we go.
These are romanized literally. So yeah, a few players migh have their name written slightly different here.
185 entrants. Site says 233 entrants but I guess the rest dropped out.

Spoiler: All these people

1. Sylph
2. You3
3. Earth
4. Yuto
5. Runa
6. Kuki
7. Maikeru
8. Rizeo
9. Saku
10. Haru
11. Nyokki
12. Excel
13. Kademewa
14. DUI
15. Utimei
16. Sain
17. Pedoro
18. Karupisu
19. Arukuu
20. Yotti
21. Gomaapura
22. Pasutaa
23. Matti
24. Madaru
25. Shijimi
26. SH
27. Matiyan
28. Tsumusuto
29. KENTO
30. DoubleA
31. Eda
32. Fuwa
33. Akushuu
34. Alex
35. Toka
36. Konpakuto
37. Setsurun
38. tEikyo
39. Ononokkusu
40. Goma Mugitya
41. Kento
42. Kusarikatabira
43. Rushiusu
44. Kazuki
45. Hazamu
46. Perika
47. Yuuman
48. Hebi
49. Akataki
50. Tatsutsuyo
51. Paapuru
52. Kunuyaka
53. Shogun
54. Yuzupon Su
55. Masashi
56. Popii
57. Jan
58. Tiata
59. Rin
    
60. Suma
61. Isotaku
62. Oishiitoufu
63. Doraiza
64. Sky
65. Agehasama
66. Marutiidabe
67. Gazer
68. Sunohara
69. Take
70. Tsu~
71. Wadasutin
72. Karura
73. Youteru
74. JD
75. Katorasu
76. SBT
77. Fuji
78. Terauchi
79. Iberiko
80. Shea
81. Atorie
82. Rudori
83. Punsuko
84. Kei
85. Ako
86. Warabin
87. Yoiato
88. Shinowami
89. Ninoha
90. Rizeasu
91. Terra
92. Kaabisu
93. Manase
94. Shin Yuuta
95. Edge
96. Tamifuru
97. Niwatori
98. 
    
99. 
    
100. 
     
101. 
     
102. Yaki toumorokoshi
103. Ten
104. Rino
105. Zaki
106. Ore
107. Erugata
108. Izuu
109. Mangarissha
110. Volpe
111. Momosui
112. Nao
113. Rattsu
114. Nandakore
115. Akane
116. Momonga
117. Tiiku
118. Jeesu
119. Ken
120. Hitomaro
121. Peetyan
122. 123
123. Pega
124. Hanku
125. Eta
126. Nourakku
127. Yaya
128. Kii
129. Hiko
130. Yata
131. Tyuunibyou-ou
132. Rushio
133. Genji
134. Satan
135. Dog
136. PAL
137. Nau
138. Mikoukurukebin
139. Donikku
140. Yadokkusu
141. Pudama
142. ****an
143. Daiya
144. Aoba
145. Kamon
146. Gouya
147. Jio
148. Bitamin
149. Majingaa
150. Dankeshi
151. Busutosu
152. Gobu
153. Wake
154. Shimitake (sutaffu)
155. Toufu
156. Aaku
157. Baburi
158. MASA
159. Minamo
160. Kuro
161. Takashi
162. Kyuuby
163. Nakano
164. Parumezan
165. WHITE
166. Poppun
167. Farao
168. Masuda
169. Kuikku
170. Kabata
171. Ginko
172. PKurusu
173. Aki
174. Ruri
175. Maybe?
176. Nandeyanen
177. Shati
178. Saiya
179. Torehan
180. Rinda
181. A
182. Edd
183. Yuki Yuume (Mukyuu~)
184. Majime
185. Oshin

 

[Rizen]

When I'm playing Chazizard his Usmash hit 2 wiffs a lot. Do other people get that?

I think if Diddy will fall, it's because of his recovery. As people get more optimized, it's possible that he'll be forced offstage more often and people will learn to edgeguard Diddy in a cloud-esque scenario. Should be interesting.

I don't think Diddy's recovery is that bad. He gets wrecked if he's hit out of rocket barrels but he has a lot of versatility and range between those and flip kick. I was watching ZeRo vs Camalange and he showed how good diddy is at dodging while recovering like here: 13:43-13:55 https://youtu.be/Nar00MhhR-U?t=823
This is also a good set for showing how good Diddy's neutral is.

IMO Diddy and Sheik are still the top 2 characters. They can be dethroned because smash 4 is balanced but at the end of the day they're getting the best consistent results. Das Koopa's thread is being updated so I can't specifically site them atm.

 

[Y2Kay]

One thing many people don't know about Diddy Kong is that his down tilt isn't actually safe on hit.

For example, Greninja can use jab out of his down tilt at low and mid percents.

 

[Megamang]

Zard can actually kinda land too. Dair lingers, you get hit with his slowly extended leg and youll pop up and he'll be safe, it sticks out forever and cancels shortly after. He has multiple jumps, flamethrow to b reverse, rock smash to super armor through obvious attempts... if you commit hard and eat a rock smash it really hurts, though bowser also has "really hurts" locked down. He can shoot across the screen with flare blitz. Then he has the stuff everyone has, quickly falling with airdodge and stuff... jumping airdodge. If he airdodges beneath or even inside you, fly can kill you stupid early for going high... bair can kill you for trying to outspace his landing, where empty landing jabs covers you waiting for bair.

He is by no means 'good' at landing, but hes probably the best superheavy at it.

Oh, i forgot nair. Nair is another good one with a decent AC window, best vs those who trap with frame data over range or disjoint.

 

[MachoCheeze]

One thing many people don't know about Diddy Kong is that his down tilt isn't actually safe on hit.

For example, Greninja can use jab out of his down tilt at low and mid percents.

Doc can Up B out of it. It's so freakin satisfying.

 

[Aaron1997]

I screwed up (not a big one) Sumabato is tomorrow not tonight

 

[Megamang]

For anyone watching smash confefence, or wondering about MM's matchups in general, i believe Scatt switched to Cloud mostly for Lucario.


That is an annoying MU, and if not megamans worst its close. At enough aura, AS can outzone megaman alone. You *must* gimp lucario or you are in trouble. His heavyness is really tough early on, combined with a lack of a combo breaker means lucario takes you on a long ride with each grab.


Also, glad to see a non Cloud doubles team doing well enough. M2ks cloud is on another level than any pocket cloud, so respect there.

Edit: scatt getting lots of stream time. Freeing up some chars, showing how hard it can be to get in or get off the ledge vs good pelleting. I think megaman may shift into a gatekeeper, if you dont have either great mobility or a great zoning tool... youre kinda screwed.

 

[Ethan7]

This is a video by me. Shall we discuss?

 

[FeelMeUp]

This is a video by me. Shall we discuss?

Can you redo the video without poorly spaced Uairs and make the Sheik actually move forward or back like they should be?

 

[Ethan7]

Can you redo the video without poorly spaced Uairs and make the Sheik actually move forward or back like they should be?

Uair's spacing shouldn't matter, as the move's first three hits have an autolink angle and thus the move should link to the final hit properly without SDI. I believe they also have a SDI and hitlag modifier greater than 1.0 also. If you want to test with me we can do that but until you prove me wrong the evidence is for SDI'ing her uair is possible.

 

[Megamang]

So the idea would be to move the opposite way of the shiek, kinda like boost kick? Sakurai took out a hit of shieks uair forever ago, was he trying to make a 50/50?

Was that sideways SDI or up and away?


If shiek doesnt have a 100% kill from ftilt at any %, id stop saying shes the best. But as FeelMeUp said, that video was lacking shiek doing things right, and slow mo SDI is a bit dishonest.

 

[Ethan7]

So the idea would be to move the opposite way of the shiek, kinda like boost kick? Sakurai took out a hit of shieks uair forever ago, was he trying to make a 50/50?

Was that sideways SDI or up and away?


If shiek doesnt have a 100% kill from ftilt at any %, id stop saying shes the best. But as FeelMeUp said, that video was lacking shiek doing things right, and slow mo SDI is a bit dishonest.

I put some info in the description. It probably works easier on characters like Ness because he's floaty and yeah, 1/2th speed probably makes it a lot easier. I replied to FeelMeUp. I hope it was a sufficient response. I could do the same thing without controlling Ness and he would take the final hit.

 

[TDK]

Add Mew2King to Salem's win list.

 

[|RK|]

I feel like we're going to have to have a conversation about Salem and Bayonetta real soon.

 

[DunnoBro]

When I'm playing Chazizard his Usmash hit 2 wiffs a lot. Do other people get that?

I don't think Diddy's recovery is that bad. He gets wrecked if he's hit out of rocket barrels but he has a lot of versatility and range between those and flip kick. I was watching ZeRo vs Camalange and he showed how good diddy is at dodging while recovering like here: 13:43-13:55 https://youtu.be/Nar00MhhR-U?t=823
This is also a good set for showing how good Diddy's neutral is.

IMO Diddy and Sheik are still the top 2 characters. They can be dethroned because smash 4 is balanced but at the end of the day they're getting the best consistent results. Das Koopa's thread is being updated so I can't specifically site them atm.

Diddy's recovery is honestly fine. It's poor as an actual recovery move, but it has plenty of options, reversals, and a superb ability to recover high very safelymeans he can opt out of ledge get-up coverage pretty often. There's no easy gimps or flowchart, plus with diddy's neutral it's harder to just keep trying like you can vs ness or luigi.

Personally I think #1 is either Diddy, Bayo, or M2. Sonic is a potential possibility.

@SDI Uair: With preemptive SDI at 1/2 almost no multihits will work.

 

[blackghost]

I feel like we're going to have to have a conversation about Salem and Bayonetta real soon.

salem with bayo reminds me of ally with mario he is so aware of all his options and conversions. salem maynt only be th ebest bayo player but i reality a top 10-15 player in general. he just needs the ability to travel more.