Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

I wish we'd get serious2king to really actually learn the MU.


And it looks bad, but cloud has always hated bayo. Hes so easy to witch time, gimp, and actually gets chipped enough to have to approach v bayo.


Also, someone who watched salem explain his sdi chasing. What beats:

SDI directly away in direction she is facing, repeatedly, so the second abk doesnt hut?

Down, to get below the abks (not sure if possible)? Edit 2: m2k is actually doing this when he has limit. Salem has to fall and bair, ending the combo.


So hopefully we get either m2k tryharding or a Diddy in GFs... but yea, salem is rekting nerds. BUT, afaik, only salem. And he is really really really good, AND is taking sm4sh much more seriously since bayo launch, aka quite a bit of time in Salem time.


Fun FYI, you can SDI bayos rapid jab down if youre getting jabbed over the ledge.

Edit: for ****s sake, please stop giving SV to Cloud, Shiek, and Mario (in some MUs). And kinda m2 but idk.

And ness. Nair jab lock kills ~35 with ness there. Needless to say, back throw kills fast too.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought it was common news that Bayonetta did well against Cloud. If anything I think she slightly wins, she exploits his disadvantaged state especially hard not unlike other troublesome matchups Cloud has such as .

 

[Aaron1997]

Shulla-bra VIII (115 Entrants)

1. Shuton
2. Hiro
3. Chanshu
4. FILIP
5. 9B
5.Yamanyon
7.bt.yamato
7. SA
9. Kome
9. Paru
9. Sushi
9. Lagnel
13.Buizuzuki
13. Enpitsu
13. K-Shin
13. Woolley

 

[Deleted member]

Shulla-bra VIII (115 Entrants)

1. Shuton
2. Hiro
3. Chanshu
4. FILIP
5. 9B
5.Yamanyon
7.bt.yamato
7. SA
9. Kome
9. Paru
9. Sushi
9. Lagnel
13.Buizuzuki
13. Enpitsu
13. K-Shin
13. Woolley

Between this and Masha's 17th place at Umebura 25, Shulk starting to make a name for himself in Japan?

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Never thought of using the set knockback hit of Witch Twist like that lmao, looks like Hiro's back in the groove of it.

 

[DunnoBro]

To be honest I think Bayo is still overtuned and in serious need of nerfs. While it's less obvious now that her neutral is less unbearably linear yet rewarding, the SDI nerfs only put emphasis on spacing and mix-ups with b-reverses. But she still has faaaar too safe set-ups for stocks at low percents. Her damage output, kill potential, and safeness in general even ignoring stairway combos and witch time are also still ridiculous. Even retaining 21%+ Combos off grab at low percent.

Couple that with bar none the best edgeguarding and recovery in the game, and witch time which makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo unless you're grab-centric while also making it easier to keep the lead due to rage witch time combos killing VERY consistently (sometimes not even rage as shown above)

I also think m2 is overtuned as hell in the safety / reward department but at least he's not suddenly killing you at 60 (unless you get disabled but that's faaar less reliable than witch time)

 

[Megamang]

When m2k SDI'd down, Salem would bair him and the combo would end. Are there extension options? Or maybe its limit cloud exclusive?


Because it seems without divekick, theres a bit of a blindspot for combo extenders. I mean, divekick abk is a thing but not at low percents.

 

[Smashifer]

Shulla-bra VIII (115 Entrants)

1. Shuton
2. Hiro
3. Chanshu
4. FILIP
5. 9B
5.Yamanyon
7.bt.yamato
7. SA
9. Kome
9. Paru
9. Sushi
9. Lagnel
13.Buizuzuki
13. Enpitsu
13. K-Shin
13. Woolley

Why are the placings listed like that? Where there are two 5s, 7s, four 9s, et cetera. Is it for Das Koopa's point system thing?
Er, I'm new to this.

 

[Nah]

But a large part of mobility is speed and quickness. Roy has those attirbutes. Mobility is the ability to move freely and easily, and with Roy you can do that. And he's not just fast in one direction, he's fast moving in general, top 10 in speed and is a fastfaller. I guess he doesn't have a move like flip jump or bouncing fish that allows him to go super far, but he can get to places because of how quick he is.

Yes, a large part of mobility is speed, and that's the main reason (but not the ONLY reason) why for example are not mobile.

But what I'm saying is that there's much more to mobility than just how fast one covers large distances. It's also about the level of control you have over it. Roy has a lot of high speed values but tends to commit to the direction he rockets off towards, and can't mix it up a whole lot where he stops or how he moves afaik. He has poor values for air acceleration, air deceleration, walk acceleration (who actually has good walk accel in this game tho lol), dash length/dash to shield, etc. There's other factors to mobility as well like the aforementioned miscellaneous movement options like Flip Jump and Bouncing Fish, as well as B-reverses, various movement techs, traction, jumpsquat frames, your character's pivot, etc. Characters like for example are truly mobile because they have good values in most of these things (and on top of that have Bouncing Fish/Flip Jump/Hydro Pump), they have a lot of nuance and control over their movements. This is not the case with Roy, but his high speed does still make him more mobile than many characters, just not mobile mobile.

idk it just seems to me whenever mobility is brought up people just tunnel vision it into being all about max air+run speed with sometimes air accel thrown in and that's just kinda wrong really

 

[adom4]

Why are the placings listed like that? Where there are two 5s, 7s, four 9s, et cetera. Is it for Das Koopa's point system thing?
Er, I'm new to this.

Because the 5/7/9/13 all lost in the same round.

 

[Smashifer]

Because the 5/7/9/13 all lost in the same round.

Oh I see
Thanks!

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, a large part of mobility is speed, and that's the main reason (but not the ONLY reason) why for example are not mobile.

But what I'm saying is that there's much more to mobility than just how fast one covers large distances. It's also about the level of control you have over it. Roy has a lot of high speed values but tends to commit to the direction he rockets off towards, and can't mix it up a whole lot where he stops or how he moves afaik. He has poor values for air acceleration, air deceleration, walk acceleration (who actually has good walk accel in this game tho lol), dash length/dash to shield, etc. There's other factors to mobility as well like the aforementioned miscellaneous movement options like Flip Jump and Bouncing Fish, as well as B-reverses, various movement techs, traction, jumpsquat frames, your character's pivot, etc. Characters like for example are truly mobile because they have good values in most of these things (and on top of that have Bouncing Fish/Flip Jump/Hydro Pump), they have a lot of nuance and control over their movements. This is not the case with Roy, but his high speed does still make him more mobile than many characters, just not mobile mobile.

idk it just seems to me whenever mobility is brought up people just tunnel vision it into being all about max air+run speed with sometimes air accel thrown in and that's just kinda wrong really

Hey, you. I love you.

On the topic of this subject is surprisingly quite mobile. In vanilla his movement stats are only merely average (middle of the run walk/run speed, above average air speed but has no walk acceleration multiplier and has meh air acceleration) but the Arts open up a lot of opportunities for him in neutral and in approaching. Speed gives him a hella good foxtrot and PP, and most people know how much leverage he gets out of smart use of pivot grab or tomahawks. Getting one of the highest air speeds and run speeds in the game also helps with dealing in matchups where he'd get outmobilized/walled otherwise (). Walking with up tilt in the Art covers so much space, I even tested it with Shulk having a walk accel of 0.1x which is in line with most other characters and it improves even further.

Jump is even scarier because depending on the character they can't even touch you if you don't bother to approach at all or just occasionally to weave in with aerials to test their patience (crossup bair for example). His air speed is even higher than it is in Speed and landing and calculating your approaches becomes a lot easier. His great edgeguarding is another story, he's basically about to go as deep as he wants especially with Air Slash's increased height, or go for the suicidal fair x2/x3 into Air Slash (yes, it actually is a valid combo).

There's a reason why people say Arts make this character, he's very movement based. I'm not saying that he's super good because of the mobility/mix-ups Arts provide him, but it does put him a step above a good amount of other low tiers in my opinion.

 

[JayE]

Yes, a large part of mobility is speed, and that's the main reason (but not the ONLY reason) why for example are not mobile.

But what I'm saying is that there's much more to mobility than just how fast one covers large distances. It's also about the level of control you have over it. Roy has a lot of high speed values but tends to commit to the direction he rockets off towards, and can't mix it up a whole lot where he stops or how he moves afaik. He has poor values for air acceleration, air deceleration, walk acceleration (who actually has good walk accel in this game tho lol), dash length/dash to shield, etc. There's other factors to mobility as well like the aforementioned miscellaneous movement options like Flip Jump and Bouncing Fish, as well as B-reverses, various movement techs, traction, jumpsquat frames, your character's pivot, etc. Characters like for example are truly mobile because they have good values in most of these things (and on top of that have Bouncing Fish/Flip Jump/Hydro Pump), they have a lot of nuance and control over their movements. This is not the case with Roy, but his high speed does still make him more mobile than many characters, just not mobile mobile.

idk it just seems to me whenever mobility is brought up people just tunnel vision it into being all about max air+run speed with sometimes air accel thrown in and that's just kinda wrong really

yeah I get what you're saying. I'm not saying Roy is the most mobile character, I'm just saying he can be mobile in his own right. I know that characters like Sheik and ZSS have more mobile options overall with other moves.

 

[TurboLink]

Hey, you. I love you.

On the topic of this subject is surprisingly quite mobile. In vanilla his movement stats are only merely average (middle of the run walk/run speed, above average air speed but has no walk acceleration multiplier and has meh air acceleration) but the Arts open up a lot of opportunities for him in neutral and in approaching. Speed gives him a hella good foxtrot and PP, and most people know how much leverage he gets out of smart use of pivot grab or tomahawks. Getting one of the highest air speeds and run speeds in the game also helps with dealing in matchups where he'd get outmobilized/walled otherwise (). Walking with up tilt in the Art covers so much space, I even tested it with Shulk having a walk accel of 0.1x which is in line with most other characters and it improves even further.

Jump is even scarier because depending on the character they can't even touch you if you don't bother to approach at all or just occasionally to weave in with aerials to test their patience (crossup bair for example). His air speed is even higher than it is in Speed and landing and calculating your approaches becomes a lot easier. His great edgeguarding is another story, he's basically about to go as deep as he wants especially with Air Slash's increased height, or go for the suicidal fair x2/x3 into Air Slash (yes, it actually is a valid combo).

There's a reason why people say Arts make this character, he's very movement based. I'm not saying that he's super good because of the mobility/mix-ups Arts provide him, but it does put him a step above a good amount of other low tiers in my opinion.

Why do people think anyone has to approach Shulk? Nobody has to really approach Shulk. They can just sit there and wait out his monado arts. Shulk is always forced to approach when using a monado art otherwise he has to wait a certain amount of time to use that monado art again. If Shulk wants to take advantage of speed monado then HE has to approach. It's on Shulk since he has absolutely no other way to force the opponent to approach unless he has a stock or percentage lead. Of course that's not exclusive to Shulk either.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Roy has an amazing extended dash dance that helps greatly with his ability to move around the stage safely. I believe his step dash is fairly decent as well. He's not totally hapless in moving around though he mostly shines on the ground.

 

[Ethan7]

make the Sheik actually move forward or back like they should be

Why does Sheik need to move forward or backwards? Can she not do the combo like shown here? https://youtu.be/F1PO1t1BQYI

I don't think following SDI is very realistic.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Why does Sheik need to move forward or backwards? Can she not do the combo like shown here? https://youtu.be/F1PO1t1BQYI

I don't think following SDI is very realistic.

I don't think SDIing Sheik's up air in real time consistently is very realistic. I can occasionally do it, but only when I am prepared and put my entire arm into it and even then its not consistent in any way at all.

 

[Ethan7]

I don't think SDIing Sheik's up air in real time consistently is very realistic. I can occasionally do it, but only when I am prepared and put my entire arm into it and even then its not consistent in any way at all.

I will try to do it in normal speed. I don't see how this is any less practical than SDI'ing Diddy Kong's u-smash. Also, which direction were you SDI'ing?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I will try to do it in normal speed. I don't see how this is any less practical than SDI'ing Diddy Kong's u-smash. Also, which direction were you SDI'ing?

Down and in
Saw your video and decided I would do some testing myself, down and in works more often than up and out for me, I'm still labbing right now. If I find anything I'll record it.

EDIT: I'm using Marth

 

[ZcK]

Why do people think anyone has to approach Shulk? Nobody has to really approach Shulk. They can just sit there and wait out his monado arts. Shulk is always forced to approach when using a monado art otherwise he has to wait a certain amount of time to use that monado art again. If Shulk wants to take advantage of speed monado then HE has to approach. It's on Shulk since he has absolutely no other way to force the opponent to approach unless he has a stock or percentage lead. Of course that's not exclusive to Shulk either.

Is in that little period, between arts refreshing, you may want to approach shulk. You can camp his arts yes, but he can camp until they reactivate, for example shield, you wont kill shulk at reasonable percentages and when that wears off chasing him will be like chasing sonic with falco like jumps. Though that might lead into both parties doing nothing but camp until someone gives in.


Also is really rare when both players are at equal advantage barring the start of the match, so really as you said, no character really has to approach if it has an advantage and can keep it.

 

[Ethan7]

Down and in
Saw your video and decided I would do some testing myself, down and in works more often than up and out for me, I'm still labbing right now. If I find anything I'll record it.

EDIT: I'm using Marth

That's interesting, as I was SDI'ing the toward the direction Sheik's back was facing (I think up and out worked pretty good too). Were you doing it in normal speed? This may help you with the direction you want to SDI towards. https://gfycat.com/FrankSnoopyFruitfly

Edit: I hope I'm not cluttering this thread up too much (with posts that aren't necessarily discussing the meta). Discuss in my profile page if you want.

 

[blackghost]

To be honest I think Bayo is still overtuned and in serious need of nerfs. While it's less obvious now that her neutral is less unbearably linear yet rewarding, the SDI nerfs only put emphasis on spacing and mix-ups with b-reverses. But she still has faaaar too safe set-ups for stocks at low percents. Her damage output, kill potential, and safeness in general even ignoring stairway combos and witch time are also still ridiculous. Even retaining 21%+ Combos off grab at low percent.

Couple that with bar none the best edgeguarding and recovery in the game, and witch time which makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo unless you're grab-centric while also making it easier to keep the lead due to rage witch time combos killing VERY consistently (sometimes not even rage as shown above)

I also think m2 is overtuned as hell in the safety / reward department but at least he's not suddenly killing you at 60 (unless you get disabled but that's faaar less reliable than witch time)

its almost witch craft how a cool bayo clip brings out someone calling for her to be nerfed.
first off bayo getting 21 percent of what grab combo?
next what is this reffering too? "But she still has faaaar too safe set-ups for stocks at low percents" she gets most of her mileage on witch twist out of shield that will only kill you at low percent if your di assists her combo you.
"witch time which makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo"
you are aware most witch times happen when bayo is winning right? because people overextend on her trying to catchup. if you ar winning, make. her. approach. she doesnt approach well at all. sit in your shield and punish accordingly.
that combo above couldn't have been more situational using that as evidence is weak. hiro had a fresh witch time, on top of town and city, and facing a hufe enemey hurtbox so he had it easy to set up.
"makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo unless you're grab-centric"
ok this is the last time im going to say this: in a fighting game you must adapt and deal with your opponents tools menaing you have to vary how you play in a matchup. bayos respect witch time in mirror matches as well. you cannot mindlessesly press button on her stop complaining about it and go do something to get better at it.
you are the first person in a while to cal for bayo nerfs shes fine as. is she strong? yes. is she OP? lol not anymore.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That's interesting, as I was SDI'ing the toward the direction Sheik's back was facing (I think up and out worked pretty good too). Were you doing it in normal speed? This may help you with the direction you want to SDI towards. https://gfycat.com/FrankSnoopyFruitfly

Edit: I hope I'm not cluttering this thread up too much (with posts that aren't necessarily discussing the meta). Discuss in my profile page if you want.

I was doing at 2/3 rather consistently, at full speed it gets a lot harder. SDIing fast enough to get out of a 4 hit move with only 4 frames inbetween every hit is a bit difficult in real time.

 

[Megamang]

Lets not attack someone for sharing an opinion. Salem certainly makes the character look ridiculous. She has some crazy tools, her hitboxes and bat within stand out to me. Your argument was valid. But can you see how one might get concerned when he sees a bayo killing from 0 again? It was situational, but... time freeze makes situational her niche.

Not to call you out, but when certain tones come up in this thread, the overall level of discourse falls to people trying to gotcha eachother. I have smashladder chat and the rest of smashboards for this, lets keep this thread for high level analysis. Again, your points were solid but lets be friends.

...

Anyways, a quick note about "camping out" monado arts. Shulk has insane range and power with bair, and range with everything else. From a neutral standpoint here, it seems like running during a monado lets him take potshots at you while waiting for other arts to come back. Uptime on the buffs far outweighs downtime, so he'll have some buffs going in. Seems like suffocating him for his poor frame data is the scarrier thing for him.

I just zone him so im not exactly a MU expert, but i just dont see him losing that much. If anything, if buster makes you run to the corner then he can use that, switch to speed, and have free stage control. I assume people run from buster cause absurd combos, and who runs from speed/jump? And shield i guess, but to me that is a lead or specific combo breaker monado. Smash... again, youre better off overwhelming him, hiding away lets him swing killshots. Smash is ledge coverage only for my bad pocket shulk, so you cant run since you're coming back. Here shulk actually is terrifying, with a good throw, counter, smash tilts (kill stupid early), lingering aerials, and airslash OoS annnnd backscratch for specific occurances.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Yeahhhh unless you've got a good camp game, Shulk would be MUCH more afraid of a guy pushing buttons all over his face than a person who sits back and lets him space. Which makes Fox all the trickier because with smart use of laser he can do both. Wait to shield aerials, dash attack to stuff spacing, jab to stuff grab attempts...gosh I hate that guy.

Smash is ledge coverage only for my bad pocket shulk, so you cant run since you're coming back. Here shulk actually is terrifying, with a good throw, counter, smash tilts (kill stupid early), lingering aerials, and airslash OoS annnnd backscratch for specific occurances.

It's ledge coverage only in general. You're doing it right. Unless you're on a fresh stock it isn't worth playing neutral with attacks doing only half as much damage. It CAN be a decent scare tactic, though calmer players won't fall for it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Between a Frame 11 Bair with no noticeable startup, 12 frames landing lag on that Bair, Frame 1 Bat Within, and a good fastfall, Bayonetta can cleanly approach characters with aerial spacing and tomahawking with it.

And tomahawking benefits Bayonetta more than anyone else, because again, Frame 5 counter that confirms to death at 40. Very easy to mixup with that as well to punish predicted tomahawk attempts.

 

[mountain_tiger]

...What?

Mewtwo isn't even one of Jigglypuff three worst matchups and I doubt one of her five worst....

(Top three is Mario, Meta Knight, Yoshi)

OK, seriously late with my response, but just to provide some elaboration as to why I reckon Mewtwo vs Jigglypuff is really that bad (although the posts afterwards made me consider that Bayo/Sheik vs certain characters may well be worse - 'probably the biggest contender' was probably an over-exaggeration on my part)...

• Mewtwo walls Jigglypuff out like nobody's business, and can make it difficult for her to land any sort of hit thanks to his keep-out game. DTilt alone is better than Jigglypuff's entire ground game, and UTilt can catch a deceptive amount of aerial approaches too. Further to that, he outranges and outpowers her in the air without sacrificing much in the way of speed - Bair and Uair are excellent at shutting Jigglypuff down in the air, and she always has to be afraid of Fair as well. This is all without even mentioning Shadow Ball yet, which walls her out even more...
• Jigglypuff really doesn't much opportunity to play to her strengths here, or to exploit Mewtwo's weaknesses. She's notorious for having less survivability than he does (a rare 'honour' in Smash 4), she's struggling to land a kill move on him at any percent with his strong defensive game + no real reliable ways of setting up Rest, and her edgeguarding game won't work too well against him because by all rights Mewtwo is very hard to edgeguard.
• Adding to the above, Mewtwo has a very easy time landing a kill move on Puff. Fair, UThrow and Shadow Ball are all kill moves that can end Jigglypuff pretty early on, and which are very difficult to avoid consistently for the whole length of a match.
• Puff doesn't even really have the option of 'get a lead and then run away forever', because Mewtwo has very nearly as good air speed as she does. Admittedly her air acceleration is much better, but his high ground speed can make up the difference a lot of the time.

The long and short of it is that Mewtwo is a glass cannon with emphasis on the 'cannon', and Jigglypuff is a glass cannon with emphasis on the 'glass' - at least on paper, there's very little reason why Mewtwo's cannon should ever be shattered first.

 

[Solfiner]

Camping out Shulk means giving up stage control. Good luck camping out jump or speed btw.

 

[Aaron1997]

B7Games > Abadango 2-0 Welll...... Here comes the "HAHA I told you Doc was underrated" Hype train

 

[sedrf]

B7Games 2-0 Abadango

 

[L9999]

B7Games > Abadango 2-0 Welll...... Here comes the "HAHA I told you Doc was underrated" Hype train

About damn time someone did something with Doctor Mario. What did Abadango did wrong this time?

 

[MistressRemilia]

B7Games > Abadango 2-0 Welll...... Here comes the "HAHA I told you Doc was underrated" Hype train

Its funny cauz its a pretty bad Doc MU especially against any Mewtwo that doesn't try to overextend & overcommit.
Guess Abadango didnt understand in 2 games that throwing nairs at a character with 50+ footstools combos off of a grab as well as a Frame 3 kill option out of shield is quite an awful idea. That SH AC on Cape is also quite tricky the first times.
Textbook Doc Upset probably, the character thrives off of inexperience, clichés and lack of respect to do better against most opponents in any given matchup, everything gets a lot better when your opponent just won't ackowledge, say, your 14% Frame 6 SH AC aerial, for example, is a huge threat that you'd rather try & outrange more than anything.
Glad this upset happened because Doc was doing a whole lot of nothing these monthes, but this character is still the same decent-ish well rounded character with fearsome advantage state & OoS, but high suspectibility to safe & ranged options in a neutral.

 

[Fenny]

Man, the saga curse is sugoi

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

this makes me very happy as a doc player, great stuff to b7 games. Mewtwo doc is not in docs favor as explained above, great stuff

 

[Y2Kay]

B7Games > Abadango 2-0 Welll...... Here comes the "HAHA I told you Doc was underrated" Hype train

I haven't watched it yet, but I'm gonna guess that Aba didn't respect Doc's space with Neutral Airs andd such and got drop kicked in the face for it.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I heard on reddit that he switched to rosalina game 2. Rosa isnt too good for doc, but its doable

 

[Y2Kay]

I heard on reddit that he switched to rosalina game 2. Rosa isnt too good for doc, but its doable

Oh, so he switched to his complete garbo Rosa pocket, now it makes since why he lost

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh, so he switched to his complete garbo Rosa pocket, now it makes since why he lost

Rosa is worse for Doc than Mewtwo is so the fact that this happened ****ing astounds me. It's weird, Aba has never underrated Doc ever (no, really, he hasn't) so the fact that this happened is weird.

 

[Megamang]

How does doc do vs fox?

Can i get a video or thread on these 50% footstool combos? Especially interested in what he has on m2 and fox, and maybe Mario.

...

Not sure about the relative timing, did aba play singles after his doubles match? Because zero komo team is literally stealing souls, its bad. Like, i went past hype to sympathy by early game 2.

 

[Aaron1997]

Edit: nvm Aba won 2-0 vs B7