Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

Look, I'm game for the idea that Zard might be something less than irredeemable trash, but so are like fifty other characters in the game. The fact is, someone has to be bottom tier. The argument that "Zard can't be bottom 5, he has so much going for him!" doesn't fly because it's still varying degrees of valid if you replace Zard with your character of choice and bottom 5 with whatever placement you don't like for them. Think about it this way: if Zard or DDD or whoever isn't bottom x, then which x characters are definitely worse than them?

I can say with complete sincerity that the likes of Palutena, Shulk, and Wii Fit do not measure up to Charizard.

I can say with confidence that Charizard is better than Wario.

I am willing to bet that Charizard is better than Robin and Luigi.

 

[EternalFlare]

The SoCal Pikachu (the name slips my mind, fffffff), beat Mr.E in two sets at an MSM after Evo/Ktar Saga.
Mr.E is particularly fearful of that match up, Pug isn't a huge fan either IIRC.

---

While I think the match up has room to grow, going by results and general "theory" (of why things are awkward/difficult for Marth), it is fair to say it's in Pikachu's favour.
Really solid dash to shield game against Marth, the right type of burst options, can trade favourably with recoveries and can make it very difficult for Marth to get back into neutral.
Ideally, Marth wouldn't lose, but until solid punishes for QAC are forged (I suggested to Mr.E the use of reverse up tilt / up air due to their large arcing space and duration rather than nair) and not actually being one of the few characters Pika can reliably set up and continue his advantage state on, the current assessment is valid.

P.S. Marth's up-b is 5 frame start up, but doesn't sweetspot the ledge after frame 5 until like frame 12ish IIRC.
Knowing that Marth has to be a certain distance from the ledge vertically to actually not be susceptible to a trade near the ledge or being baited into a KO allows "reactable" types of situations.

Theorycrafting (it's more like mashing buzzwords together than actual craftsmanship though :<) can be so painful to read sometimes.
If you're not entirely certain of something, instead of either skirting around it or proclaiming something as fact, just concede you're not certain in an area... perhaps a third-party will chime in with information that will advance the conversation in a better way.
We're analysts here, not petty folks with anything to gain.

12 frames isn't reactable either. Smash 4 has 6 frames of input lag (or around there anyway) plus however many frames Pika's bair would take to come out assuming you were already at the ideal spot. Even with above average reaction time, you aren't reacting to jack.

I've explained how Marth can mix up and actually counter react to Pika going offstage.

Another thing to keep in mind is even if bair clips Marth, if he was high enough when it happened, he can instantly up B again and still make it back.

I've conceded a while back the matchup is in Pika's favour if top Marths think it, I just don't think it's because of edge guarding alone.

QA should not be a big issue outside of platform heavy stages. It has 15 frames of startup + however long it takes to reach Marth. Not only this but trying to read it doesn't get you punished. If Marth is expecting it and through out a pre-emptive ftilt/fsmash or something, either Pika did it and got hit or did nothing and was too far away to punish.

You put so much emphasis on results, yet don't check results either. You truly are an enigma. Has a Pikachu beaten a Marth recently? No, cause there's no one out there actually using Pikachu to begin with. And I brought up how edge guarding works for every character in the game, not specifically Pikachu. If I were to mention Pikachu's edge guarding, I would name one of his moves. Such as bair. You don't even have to trade with it, you can hit Marth from behind the disjoint and get him that way. Or you can throw a Tjolt where he's going to go. Or go off and dair him where he's trying to position himself to up b.

His recovery is predictable. You do not have to react to it. Predicting something doesn't have anything to do with luck, it has to do with noticing your opponents patterns. As has been already said, Marth is always going low. You know where he's going to be. And you're still thinking about edge guarding as if you are right next to the stage. That isn't always the case. You don't even have to go off stage, ledge trumping is a thing too.

Not only that, but you're severely underrating Pikachu. He isn't Edge Guarding: The Character. He has a fantastic, practically lagless up special that is great on platforms and acts as an approach and can lead into up tilt or a grab if you shield which starts his combos. You talk about reacting to things all the time, you're not reacting to that up special. The only reason you would ever be able shield that move is if you knew it was already coming. He has a solid projectile that forces approaches and also allows him to approach. The entire Marth v Pikachu MU is literally just both characters trying to play as lame as possible.

Ledge trumping doesn't work if they buffer options. Also it's not particularly good with Pikachu anyway until extremely high percents. Dair and nair are too weak and bair won't directly kill either.

As for Pika's up B, as mentioned above it's 15 frames on startup + the second iteration + the time it takes to reach you. All of this combined gives you enough time at the very least to block. And as I explained above, trying to hard read the move isn't a bad idea either, Pika will likely be too far away to do anything about it even if you are wrong. Watch notable Pika's in action and on most stages you'll notice they don't use up B much in neutral. It's a gimmick more than a solid option. It only seems amazing in low level play.

Once again in practice, Mario and Marth rarely get gimped. You know they are going low but don't know the exact moment they are about to up B, slight changes in timing mess up your edge guard and good players don't recover the exact same way every time. They can react to what you are about to do and do an early up B for instance.

 

[Shaya]

Palutena has dthrow back air at KO percent on most of the cast, can up air on reaction if you DI to avoid it (which is a KO at like 80%)
Dthrow is consistently chaining into fair, or nair, which for a long time strings into further hits (dthrow -> fair -> regrab is actually disgusting).

Honestly, she may be underrated. Charizard feasibly is too, but I find it hard to be confident in saying he's better, when she likely marks towards the ceiling of what Zard could be rated.

 

[Browny]

i'm sorry, but i'm going to have to call bs on this.
when the same 2 sheiks make top 8 at almost every single tourney while having WILDLY different playstyles it means that they have room to grow. it isn't the character that's holding them back, lol.
and the sheiks both have their recent wins on bracket demons(VoiD>Ally and Mr. R>Dabuz, for example) so nothing is impossible

Call it what you want, I stick by my prediction.

In this E-sports era of smash, actually winning tournaments is a VERY BIG difference to placing top 8. If you aren't winning, you can't afford to play the game full-time and travel everywhere which is what most of the top players are doing these days.

While less consistent players around them are raking it in, over time the sunk cost fallacy is going to break and they'll switch.

I've seen it happen many times before, not just in smash 4. People don't just dominate with a character for a while, keep getting upset in bracket while watching other players win regularly and be content with it. It builds up over time. The amount of effort Sheik players have to put in, only to get footstool combo'd by megaman and die at 48%, will take its toll.

 

[MarshieMan]

Having read most of this thread, I'd like to address a lot of reoccuring arguments/points that are just wrong.

1. "_____ should be higher on the tier list because of their great results!"
--I can almost guarantee that if you're saying this, you're making it up and aren't actually familiar with your characters results. I'm saying this based off of all the people who wrongfully claim a character has good results. Just because one person in Japan or Germany or whatever has semi-decent results doesn't mean anything.

2."But someone got 17th place at (insert major tournament name here), therefore this character is better than we thought!"
--No. Results don't mean anything unless they are CONSISTENT and GOOD. Like top 5 good, and on a regular basis.

3. Keep in mind that whether a character is good or not has very little to do with what they can do in a perfect situation.
What do i mean by this?
For example, people say charizard is good because of his powerful throw combos, disjointed hitboxes, offstage game, and overall ability to rack up damage. However none of that means anything against a character like sonic, who can simply out-camp all his options. Charizards weaknesses (slow speed, large hurtbox, poor neutral options) basically nullify his advantages.

Because every character has their own unique tricks, strengths, and weaknesses: tier lists are dictated by MU spreads more than by simple attack power.

Also i chose charizard only as an example, people make similar points about other characters.

A few more points:
-Smash4 is decently balanced. Theres nothing stopping someone from getting decent results with a low/mid tier character.

-Low tier characters may have deceiving results due to their "Novelty" factor. Basically nobody knows the matchup and will inherently have a handicap. Thats the reason low tier mains occasionally get results higher than their tier would predict.

-Mid/low tier characters have very very little notable/consistent results, making it difficult to objectively rank them in a tier list.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't see Dk, Pit or Yoshi. Being better than Peach. Lucario is questionable. I personally don't like the system that is used to see who is better than who. But going by how this is even made, I don't think people should even take this as serious as they are. Since Brawl, tier list on this site did not mean much to me at all. And I never really let it tell me how good a character really is. I think more people should look at it that way. But that's just me.

As for character rep, someone said Lucas would get more rep if Pink fresh not main bayo. I kinda take it as a lazy comment. If you want a character up there, put in the work yourself. Step your game up and stop waiting for that one dude to come through. You be that dude. Some don't wanna put in the work, then not happy of the results. does not work that way.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Charizard is probably better than where he's currently sitting, but lets not get crazy here calling him better than Luigi. Luigi as in one of the very few characters that can give Diddy Kong trouble and does fairly well against a lot of the other top tiers.

I could feasibly see him at max in Lucina's current spot. Something around Little Mac/Palutena is more likely.

Him and Roy are two characters I'd love to see more of however.

Shaya about Ike second gen: San being able to travel more/his region growing large enough to count for Das Koopa's rankings would help a lot. He's doing well there, but it ends up under the radar. Rango's climb is really slow. Been a few other Ike names popping up and hitting around Rango's level with less time invested though, so it might happen.

As for unique playing style compared to the rest of the FE cast he does have one: he's the grappler. Much more so than Robin (who's Checkmake is certainly respectable but its more of a kill confirm than a consistent part of his game plan). Expanding that would probably mean completely mastering his early stock footstool combos. Some of those things can hit upwards to like 80% from what I saw in Izaw's video if you really nail it. Imagine an Ike that could pull that off consistently. One grab below 10% would leave you in danger of death from a large portion of his moveset right afterwards. But not even Ryo ever got that down consistently.

 

[John12346]

Just because I was asked about it in the other thread:

@Mario766 Nidtendofreak

John12346 Alright, lets here this one. Should be good to hear particularly when considering GOLM.

I did NOT put Ike as 7th worst on my Tier List lmao wtf

My Tier List differs a good degree from what the final results showed; of course, I'm sure this was the case for a lot of the 4BR people. I'll post my personal list here just for reference's sake.

Mii Fighters are Guest/1111, and there is ordering within the tiers.

I'm sure my voting choices are going to bring up a lot more questions than they answer though lol

 

[EternalFlare]

Call it what you want, I stick by my prediction.

In this E-sports era of smash, actually winning tournaments is a VERY BIG difference to placing top 8. If you aren't winning, you can't afford to play the game full-time and travel everywhere which is what most of the top players are doing these days.

While less consistent players around them are raking it in, over time the sunk cost fallacy is going to break and they'll switch.

I've seen it happen many times before, not just in smash 4. People don't just dominate with a character for a while, keep getting upset in bracket while watching other players win regularly and be content with it. It builds up over time. The amount of effort Sheik players have to put in, only to get footstool combo'd by megaman and die at 48%, will take its toll.

While I do think Sheik is going to win a major soon (Mr. R and Void have gotten close several times recently), your general assessment is spot on.

I've noticed guys who get top 8 regularly but never win are largely ignored both by viewers and big sponsors.

Take Kame and Megaman for instance. He was one win away at Evo and places at the top regularly in Japan (recently 4th at Umebura). Imagine if he had won Evo. Megaman would probably be top 8-10 on this tier list and everyone would be talking about him being top 5 in the world.

It's a real shame because consistency, especially in Smash 4 is a lot harder and more impressive than winning a major once and never placing in the money again. Consistency means you're not a fluke and don't rely on bracket luck to succeed at the highest level. One big win and not much else could just mean you just got the most ideal lucky bracket for yourself.

I think Mr. R is probably the most underrated Smash 4 player as a result. I don't think anyone else has fewer "bad" losses (does he have any? I can't even recall one).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Call it what you want, I stick by my prediction.

In this E-sports era of smash, actually winning tournaments is a VERY BIG difference to placing top 8. If you aren't winning, you can't afford to play the game full-time and travel everywhere which is what most of the top players are doing these days.

While less consistent players around them are raking it in, over time the sunk cost fallacy is going to break and they'll switch.

I've seen it happen many times before, not just in smash 4. People don't just dominate with a character for a while, keep getting upset in bracket while watching other players win regularly and be content with it. It builds up over time. The amount of effort Sheik players have to put in, only to get footstool combo'd by megaman and die at 48%, will take its toll.

Okay.
That still doesn't mean anything when Mr. R, for example, has only made it outside of top 8 less times than I can count on my hand.
He never loses to randoms, either. So i'm not really sure what you're trying to get across.
If you're making top 8, you get paid at every relevant tournament.
Your name is out there.
You're probably sponsored or getting recruited by sponsors.
That's where your travel money comes from. No other character aside from Diddy can say they have ALWAYS made top 16/32 at majors.
What sort of mentality does it take to believe Sheik should be "dropped" by her best reps?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

tbh the whole "you can only react to frame 17+ things" idea is kinda irrelevant to top/high level players. They have a significant amount of practice and can probably react a lot faster than average, frame 14 seems pretty reasonable for them imo

 

[MarshieMan]

I know im basically repeating what ninety said earlier, but keep in mind someone has to be bottom tier. If you move charizard up you have to move someone else down. And then someone will make an equally convincing argument about how that character is actually better than Zard.

 

[EternalFlare]

tbh the whole "you can only react to frame 17+ things" idea is kinda irrelevant to top/high level players. They have a significant amount of practice and can probably react a lot faster than average, frame 14 seems pretty reasonable for them imo

No matter how much you practice reacting, some things are beyond human reaction time. You can only improve your reaction up to a certain point, after that it's genetics. 14 frames is reasonable however Smash 4 has input lag which is about 6 frames. So that must be subtracted from everything (as you have to react 6 frames faster to compensate).

Once you factor that in, you can't realistically block a 14 frame move on reaction (even most with extremely good reaction times aren't going to manage 8 frame reactions).

 

[Caryslan]

Oh, hello, there! I am glad to be part of this new thread.
I really don't know if I should open this can of worms, but... I am curious as to what people feel about Lucina, after this tier list.
Yes, she did rise and a lot, but... I still think she can be more than this.

I think Lucina is better or at the very least equal to most of the characters above her. What holds her back is the stigma she's faced since day 1 that she's not worth playing because she's "Easy Mode Marth."

Unless I'm wrong, virtually nobody plays her in high-level play and she gets ignored in favor of Marth. Which is a real shame, because I think she could be a major force in Smash 4. Maybe not to the level of Corrin or Marth, but she could easily hold her own in most matchups, and might even do better than Marth in some of them due to not needing to hit the Tipper for a KO.

Do I think she's better than Ike and Robin?

Yes I do. But until people give her a chance and stop dismissing her as "Training Wheels Marth" she will be lucky to even make it into the mid-tier.

 

[Nu~]

The reason why top players seem to powersheild quick moves so consistently is the fact that they are quick to recognize scenarios in which said move will come out. They don't really "react" any faster than a normal human (in most cases anyway...)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

No matter how much you practice reacting, some things are beyond human reaction time. You can only improve your reaction up to a certain point, after that it's genetics. 14 frames is reasonable however Smash 4 has input lag which is about 6 frames.

Once you factor that in, you can't realistically block a 14 frame move on reaction (even most with extremely good reaction times aren't going to manage 8 frame reactions).

People react faster to things that they're used to. For instance, average reaction time may be 240 MS but runners regularly react to the starting gun in ~150 times. I think reacting to 8 - 9 frame things is reasonable

 

[arbustopachon]

Charizards weaknesses (slow speed, large hurtbox, poor neutral options

Zard isn't actually slow tho. Walk speed and run speed are both fast, 4 fastest skid animation, 11 frames initial dash, air speed is bad but not terrible, air accel is meh but again not terrible. walk speed accel and initial dash speed are bad tho. He is arguably the most mobile heavy on the ground.

On frame data he is not terribly slow either. Certainly not fast, but not shulk levels of slowness.

 

[EternalFlare]

People react faster to things that they're used to. Average reaction time may be 240 MS but runners regularly react to the starting gun in ~150 times. I think reacting to 8 - 9 frame things is pretty reasonable

Wouldn't they be reacting to the sound? Not visual cues? I believe sound reaction is faster so that probably plays a part. And before you say it, reacting with sound would be much harder in games as you'd have to first distinguish several different sounds slowing you down. So it's definitely not the same thing.

Most humans will never be able to (visually) react to things in 8-9 frames no matter how much they practice, especially when trying to react to several different possible things. Again, genetics.

 

[Ninety]

I can say with complete sincerity that the likes of Palutena, Shulk, and Wii Fit do not measure up to Charizard.

I can say with confidence that Charizard is better than Wario.

I am willing to bet that Charizard is better than Robin and Luigi.

You obviously know better than me in this, but dude, seriously?

 

[PK Gaming]

This tier list and the discussion that followed it is making me seriously want to put in the time to truly study the Smash 4 metagame.

Don't get me wrong, I think I have a good grasp of the Smash 4 metagame, but there's just so much more I want to learn; truly understanding just my mains isn't going to cut it. Honestly, Smash 4 is a genuinely challenging metagame to "master", haha.

 

[MarshieMan]

Zard isn't actually slow tho. Walk speed and run speed are both fast, 4 fastest skid animation, 11 frames initial dash, air speed is bad but not terrible, air accel is meh but again not terrible. walk speed accel and initial dash speed are bad tho. He is arguably the most mobile heavy on the ground.

On frame data he is not terribly slow either. Certainly not fast, but not shulk levels of slowness.

You basically said hes not slow and then admitted that everything about him is slow except his dash/walk. Yeah he isn't "the slowest" but hes pretty slow.

Edit: Zard has the 47th slowest air speed. 16th fastest walk speed, 9th fastest dash speed.

Considering most of his powerful options are aerials, and he has trouble getting in even with his fast dash speed, its totally reasonable for me to say hes slow.

If you want to get into his slow frame data, too, i doubt youll have any success convincing people its anything better than mediocre.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just because I was asked about it in the other thread:

@Mario766 Nidtendofreak


I did NOT put Ike as 7th worst on my Tier List lmao wtf

My Tier List differs a good degree from what the final results showed; of course, I'm sure this was the case for a lot of the 4BR people. I'll post my personal list here just for reference's sake.

Mii Fighters are Guest/1111, and there is ordering within the tiers.

I'm sure my voting choices are going to bring up a lot more questions than they answer though lol

Right I made a more general inquiry afterwards and it was confirmed that was not the case. My apologies John12346 Kneejerk reaction due to going through the Brawl Tier lists back when somebody on the voting process put down Ike as second worse because "you can shield everything but his jab on reaction". So there is sadly precedence for me to see stuff that dumb.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You basically said hes not slow and then admitted that everything about him is slow except his dash/walk. Yeah he isn't "the slowest" but hes pretty slow.

Edit: Zard has the 47th slowest air speed. 16th fastest walk speed, 9th fastest dash speed.

Considering most of his powerful options are aerials, and he has trouble getting in even with his fast dash speed, its totally reasonable for me to say hes slow.

If you want to get into his slow frame data, too, i doubt youll have any success convincing people its anything better than mediocre.

actually a lot of charizards best options are ground based. Jab, dtilt, up smash, grab, and up tilt are his ground options while his air options boil down to fair and bair
His frame data isn't slow, its actually pretty average. No its not Luigi tier but its still good especially considering hes a super heavy. His damage per hit is high and combined with his range hes actually pretty safe.

 

[EternalFlare]

This tier list and the discussion that followed it is making me seriously want to put in the time to truly study the Smash 4 metagame.

Don't get me wrong, I think I have a good grasp of the Smash 4 metagame, but there's just so much more I want to learn; truly understanding just my mains isn't going to cut it. Honestly, Smash 4 is a genuinely challenging metagame to "master", haha.

I have a love/hate relationship with Smash 4 because of this.

Coming from previous Smash games, I often can't stand its inconsistency but that also makes it interesting. I can't just pick a top tier and invalidate half the cast.

It might be rage or the overall balance but even bottom tiers in this game, I'm legitimately scared to go up against.

Call me crazy but rage+Ganon? No thanks, give me a Sheik any day. At least I won't lose because I made one mistake at 50.

 

[verbatim]

Speaking of "frame data", a lot of Charizard's moves suffer from weird development choices/hitboxes in ways that don't mess up most characters. His extended neck hurtbox turns what would have been an amazing dash grab into a bad one, and many of his ground moves will whiff if an opponent is inside of Charizard and not directly in front of him.

 

[Juno97]

I have a love/hate relationship with Smash 4 because of this.

Coming from previous Smash games, I often can't stand its inconsistency but that also makes it interesting. I can't just pick a top tier and invalidate half the cast.

It might be rage or the overall balance but even bottom tiers in this game, I'm legitimately scared to go up against.

Call me crazy but rage+Ganon? No thanks, give me a Sheik any day. At least I won't lose because I made one mistake at 50.

I mean, most of the top placing/best players are solo mains. It's really player v player and the match up knowledge you have.

What I want to know is the idea that Marth is below Toon Link, Corrin, and Ness when he has the better results than the 3 of them.

 

[Rashyboy05]

What I want to know is the idea that Marth is below Toon Link, Corrin, and Ness when he has the better results than the 3 of them.

I think its because those three characters, especially Corrin, has better theory than Marth. With Toon Link's item shenanigans, Corrin's tricks with Dragon Lunge and Dragon Fang Shot, and Ness's back throw.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think its because those three characters, especially Corrin, has better theory than Marth. With Toon Link's item shenanigans, Corrin's tricks with Dragon Lunge and Dragon Fang Shot, and Ness's back throw.

I would not be calling Corrin's theory better. Not when Marth's theory includes "comboing into tippered Fsmash".

Of those three I could see Toon Link in "potential" land hanging out with Marth. Some of the item stuff can get insane on paper, and the fact that you're a wall of projectiles can really shut down certain game plans. Have a small-but-existant disjoint on all of your attacks is a boon as well. In "potential" land, Toon Link can use his items to the point he can get around his difficulty setting up kills.

Ness will always be solid (and imo more consistent than Lucas) and will probably be the gatekeeper to high tier Brawl D3 style. Its like he has a second built in comeback mechanic on top of rage in his Bthrow, which he can fairly safely wrack up damage towards in his aerials. You're never particularly far from losing a stock to him.

 

[MarshieMan]

actually a lot of charizards best options are ground based. Jab, dtilt, up smash, grab, and up tilt are his ground options while his air options boil down to fair and bair
His frame data isn't slow, its actually pretty average. No its not Luigi tier but its still good especially considering hes a super heavy. His damage per hit is high and combined with his range hes actually pretty safe.

Sigh- we could go back and forth all day.

Those options you mentioned, with the exception of grab and up smash, imply that the person playing as Zard has already gotten close to their opponent. Zard's jabs and tilts arent very good options against an experienced opponent who can just out space them. His aerials, however, do not have that limitation. But hes too slow in the air to make use of them.

Also, and this is really really important, even his "best options", when compared against the rest of the cast, aren't that great. His options are no better than plenty of other characters, especially considering they don't share the same weaknesses Zard has to deal with.

Edit:
Frame data for his "best" options.
-DTilt comes out on frame 9(only active for 1 frame)
-Jab on frame 4
-UTilt on frame 9, and multiple other Zard mains have told me UTilt is terrible
-USmash is amazing though, i can't really argue that one. However it does have pretty bad end lag (49 frames)
-aerials have average frame data, slightly better than others of similar weight. However Zard's air speed kinda ruins this

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I hope mains keep performing well this character is bonkers has confirms, footstool infinites, great combos, fairly good frame data, amazing tether grab, can zone and rush down, recovery goes very far, etc. I can easily see him jumping up soon as theory crafty as that sounds I'm very confident in him.

Also nice to see people having totally given up on yet despite recent lackluster performances. Only down three spots, I see a lot more Ness' popping up on PR's

 

[MarshieMan]

I hope mains keep performing well this character is bonkers has confirms, footstool infinites, great combos, fairly good frame data, amazing tether grab, can zone and rush down, recovery goes very far, etc. I can easily see him jumping up soon as theory crafty as that sounds I'm very confident in him.

Also nice to see people having totally given up on yet despite recent lackluster performances. Only down three spots, I see a lot more Ness' popping up on PR's

Its not actually an infinite. And anybody who struggles against lucas can just CP villager and stuff his recovery. Bowling ball catches tether and pocket... well, you know.

Lucas is really good, but he struggles with high tier MUs, especially cloud and diddy.

 

[FeelMeUp]

cp diddy/MK would be much easier than CP villager.

 

[C0rvus]

Is Charizard on par with DK and Bowser? His ledge coverage is really superb, but otherwise I think his reward isn't as good as the other two. He doesn't have a Ding Dong or whatever dumb phrase people made up for Bowser's throw > kill move combo. His kill throw is not bad, but it's not great. Combos are barely there at all. His jab mixups are tight, though, and he may have the best neutral of the three thanks to Flamethrower. I'm not sure how to rate any of these characters tbh. Really poor disadvantage tends to put you in the pits.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I was under the assumption you could just continue it after the jab reset. He won't be a top tier that's for sure but I know he can climb farther up the tiers than he currently is.

 

[verbatim]

Is Charizard on par with DK and Bowser? His ledge coverage is really superb, but otherwise I think his reward isn't as good as the other two. He doesn't have a Ding Dong or whatever dumb phrase people made up for Bowser's throw > kill move combo. His kill throw is not bad, but it's not great. Combos are barely there at all. His jab mixups are tight, though, and he may have the best neutral of the three thanks to Flamethrower. I'm not sure how to rate any of these characters tbh. Really poor disadvantage tends to put you in the pits.

He's the least common of the three, and that actually matters quite a bit when you're talking about a character with very powerful but ultimately very avoidable kill options. I think that long term he's the worst of the ultra heavies, but the best "matchup-inexperience" counterpick among them.

 

[LancerStaff]

stoppppppppppppp stopppp please
you're like Larry for Pit at this point.

You could just post an actual decent reply yaknow. I don't see the comparison because I'm not posting constant misinformation anyway.

7th (False) at CEO 2016
13th (Mr E) and 17th (Pugwest) at EVO 2016
9th (Mr E), 13th (False) and 17th (Pugwest) at KTAR Saga
5th (Mr E) at Endgame

off the top of my head

so yeah, enough

Earth got 9th at EVO and has top 16 placements in countless Japanese tournaments, and Kuro got 7th in the tournament the other day. For a character that doesn't have gods from other games picking him up that's pretty good, don't ya think?

So have Marth's. Even more so. One look at his results in the last few months will show that.
It's a good question when looking at the other three listed thogh, even if I don't agree with you because I do think they're better than Pit. However, what have Greninja, Lucario, and Corrin been up to lately? I remember back around Beast 6 that many people thought Greninja had a very good MU spread, apparently going even with most high/top tiers at the time with the exception of Sheik. Is that still the case? If so, then what's holding the frog back?

Didn't mean to imply Marth hasn't done anything... But yeah, the other three don't have a lot of ground to stand on.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Charizard's combo basically delve down to Dthrow -> Fair.

Thing is, that Fair is sending you offstage. Charizard more than makes up for "lack of combos" by just ****ing you nine different ways as you try to get back onstage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Don't forget his disadvantage easily being the best of the super heavies

Multiple jumps, long burst, and super armor landing options can go a long ways

 

[C0rvus]

It's still pretty ass tho

 

[Mr. Johan]

You hardly need the jumps and super armor.

Flamethrower and Nair do enough on their own to get him back in the game.