Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

I wouldn't say Lucario is straight up rewarded, because as strong as Aura is, you should at least rack up damage to your foe to make it easier [...]

Just to give you an idea how [Aura] x [Rage] works out in practice: at 150% Lucario starts killing pretty much every non-heavyweight around 60% with Aura Charge -> Usmash.

 

[Gunla]

Last time, Peach was higher than Lucario. What do you think caused Lucario to be higher than Peach this time around? As a Peach main and Lucario secondary, I'm curious.
Gunla

I put Lucario higher than Peach on my vote, keeping in mind the results of Day, Gibus, Motsunabe, Serge and other high level Lucario players (with Day's performance at EVO being a solid standout). Lucario's kit still being what it is is also another factor I considered personally.

I doubt that many factored CCC and Samsora's very strong run there considering how close it was to the deadline. However, him, Umeki and SlayerZ have enjoyed very solid runs at the events they have gone to as well. I don't entirely agree with the list as a whole (I do think that D Tier's inhabitants are borderline high tier and likely viable in this game), but I do think that a bit of recency might have played a factor into Peach and Lucario's results.

 

[adom4]

Just to give you an idea how [Aura] x [Rage] works out in practice: at 150% Lucario starts killing pretty much every non-heavyweight around 60% with Aura Charge -> Usmash.

He kills heavyweights with that too (Guy who got killed at 40% by Lucario's Bair once )

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel like Charizard and Roy should be switched.

But I also feel that neither of them are bottom tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People always mention Umeki when it comes to Peach's results. Does anybody actually know his placings or which people he beats and loses to? Kie's the one who's brought in the big results with Peach in Japan.

He kills heavyweights with that too (Guy who got killed at 40% by Lucario's Bair once )

Bair is actually the worst offender when it comes to early kills with Lucario but its hitbox is very small. Getting the opponent caught in an Aura Charge is much easier.

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm... I've a feeling and it's once again, "FEELING" which means jack like it does whenever patches happen, that Samus might see a rise. Not a Marth rise, maybe not even an Ike rise, and definitely not a Mewtwo rise, but something like a Bowser rise.

Spoiler: Know-nothing pretends to know something

Why do I think this: Samus really didn't and doesn't have anything wrong with her. Seriously, she didn't. She mostly had number issues similar to Marth -- she still has some issues like her grab recoveries are atrocious even compared to ZSS's and some minor things like Down Smash isn't strong, so maybe it could have lower recovery to be a fast, but versatile Down Smash or just be strong and be a simple Down Smash or maybe her throws could do more damage. Off the top of my head Ftilt is one -- pre-patch it was a Brawl Ftilt with sour-spots -- and Nair being this average speed, but pretty weak aerial to an average speed, but pretty good aerial. Also, her dash attack kind of got buffed, but also kind of not. It was kind of reverted to its Brawl and Melee startup, but not its damage. She really does have an early hit on her dash attack since the clean hit could be considered the frame 10, 10% hit. Thinking about it, I don't really know why her dash attack had to be increased in startup from Brawl and Melee's 7 to launch Smash 4's 10. Now it's frame 8 and pretty fine. None of those dash attacks seem to be broken, but whatever. Animation-wise, pre-patch dash attack did make sense as a set and launch tackle similar to Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot, but yes, the setup having a hitbox as it's pretty much a shoulder bash does makes sense too. Anyway, I digress.

Samus is a character who can control space well; one part through her being naturally tall and with long-reaching limbs e.g. Ftilt, Nair, and Bair and the other part through her projectiles and disjoints -- this part is probably more of her Zair than anything. She pretty much has a reversal even if it's not as reliable as say, Mario or Ryu's, through Screw Attack, her recovery is pretty good mostly through her ability to shrink her hurtbox and weave about through Bomb and having access to a tether recovery to mix things up, and her edgeguard and ledge-game might be potent. Not sure since she has, like other characters, lingering aerials to edgeguard people, a low-hitting move to 2-3 frame people with Dtilt?, a strong ledge trump Bair shared with ZSS, and then there's the whole Bomb shenanigans. She also has a solid, stable and perhaps s flexible game plan unlike say, PAC-MAN where if you wreck his setups, he can't really do much or if, as many people say, zone Bayonetta out, she can't really do anything. Her major problems other than the whole "Samus sucks" thing spread by that video and her reputation as being "the worst character" deterring players from playing her at a high-level would probably be that yes, she's not fast. At worst, she's kind of like Mega Man. Not fast, but not slow. Samus's anti-air isn't that great either since Screw Attack is mostly vertical, Utilt's slow, and Up Smash has issues with connecting leaving her with mostly jab, angled Ftilt, and angled Side Smash for anti-airing -- air to air, she has Zair, but Nair, Fair, and Bair also work. There's also the whole roll issue. If only she had her Metroid: Prime dashes...

I don't know Samus, so I'll leave it at that. What I would like to know is the idea of her MU spread. I don't remember her being said to have terrible MUs, especially gatekeepers, so if that's the case, wouldn't she be more of a (low-)mid-tier who has a couple of manageable disadvantages, possibly some advantages, and everything else is "even"?

Brawl Samus's raw frame data if anyone's interested: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitSamus.php.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel like Charizard and Roy should be switched.

But I also feel that neither of them are bottom tier.

Any reasons for that? why both aren't bottom?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Is nobody gonna look at the standard deviations and the voting data? Its very interesting how shulk had the sixth highest standard deviation out of the entire cast(with a deviation of 6.7), meaning he could have been placed between 35th to 47th considering his average was 41.77. Interesting.

EDIT: 8th highest, sorry

--
Ffamran

Here is a reliable samus matchup chart made by the top samus mains

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Any reasons for that? why both aren't bottom?

I just feel like Roy and Charizard are a step above characters like Ganondorf, Zelda and Jiggs.

Granted I feel that way about Dedede too, but not as strongly as the two above.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just to give you an idea how [Aura] x [Rage] works out in practice: at 150% Lucario starts killing pretty much every non-heavyweight around 60% with Aura Charge -> Usmash.

Or force palm, bair, fsmash, fully charged aura sphere, uair off platforms, etc. I've been killed at embarrassingly low percentages to a full rage Lucario in a lot of ways before. Believe me, a match can go from "totally manageable" to "force palm's ready, Mom's spaghetti" real quick against Lucario, especially if they get a grab in and land one decent string of attacks.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Or force palm, bair, fsmash, fully charged aura sphere, uair off platforms, etc.

Lucario doesn't have an fsmash.

 

[ARGHETH]

Is nobody gonna look at the standard deviations and the voting data? Its very interesting how shulk had the sixth highest standard deviation out of the entire cast(with a deviation of 6.7), meaning he could have been placed between 35th to 47th considering his average was 41.77. Interesting.

Eighth, actually.

18 characters had a SD of at least 6, and 32 had a SD of at least five.

Link, with a SD of ~8, was the highest.

 

[Gunla]

People always mention Umeki when it comes to Peach's results. Does anybody actually know his placings or which people he beats and loses to? Kie's the one who's brought in the big results with Peach in Japan.

I'd say Umeki is more of a known name to people due to his travels to America. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall if Kie has traveled to the US for Smash 4. That being said, he is placing better in Japan at the moment (and was also ranked on both the eSports and Umebura PRs earlier this summer at least).

Link, with a SD of ~8, was the highest.

And this personally isn't very surprising to me how he's been lately. I could see him on the rise for v3.0.

 

[FullMoon]

Taking part in the voting period for this tier list was an interesting experience.

As for Cloud being 2nd, that's something I myself voted but my tier list was a bit outdated in regards to how good I felt Cloud really was but I never really got to updating my list. That might be the case for some other people who voted as well, at first I thought Cloud being top 3 was a given but recent developments made me start questioning it.

The new tier list I don't have too many problems with myself, the main things in it that make me raise an eyebrow are Corrin, Lucas, Ike and Roy's positions.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pretty much its impossible for people to get the FE cast correct (Marth should be the highest of the lot, Corrin should be at the top of mid tier area not in high tier, Lucina should be a lot closer to Marth [though not RIGHT beside there are some noticeable differences between them and in a large tournament it would show during the long run], Ike and Robin should be pretty darn close with Ike in front, Roy should be a bit higher).

Supposedly somebody put Ike at freaking 7th worst. If that's true uh, that person should not be allowed to vote in a tier list and his list should have been tossed. I'm sorry, there's a wide range where you can put characters reasonably (particularly in the mid tier range), but if you're voting is off by... over 20 spots you don't know enough to contribute to what is supposed to be an accurate snapshot of the current metagame. Your knowledge is too off base and too specific to just a handful of characters, you're hurting the accuracy of the project.

Yes I'm aware this is somewhat covered in the original posts but: if that kind of thing can actually happen the voting methodology needs to change. "New to submitting tier lists" is not a valid reason for that kind of vote going through.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Question

Why is Marth more than 5 spaces away from Lucina?

What was the highest difference between Marth and Lucina in votes? Where was the lowest she was placed?

Supposedly somebody put Ike at freaking 7th worst.

...

 

[Yikarur]

With "less range" for Lucina I was indeed refering to the vertical reach and It can be relevant. But yes Lucina isn't that far away from Marth imo

 

[LancerStaff]

...What have Marth, Greninja, Corrin, and Lucario done to be a full tier above Pit? Honest question. Pit's results at majors have only been improving since the last list.

On the other hand...

Green topics include:
Discussion of other gameplay environments.
>Including 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and FFA.

Red topics include:
Game preference discussion.
>Includes how much you don't like FFAs or online play.

Hehe...

One thing I just noticed.
Why are and not next to each other? They are 3 places apart.

Because Dark Pit isn't equal to Pit, or even close to it. There's a good reason we haven't seen Earth pull out Pittwo outside of doubles in months.

 

[FamilyTeam]

With "less range" for Lucina I was indeed refering to the vertical reach and It can be relevant. But yes Lucina isn't that far away from Marth imo

If that extremely slight difference is somehow relevant I assume Lucina being somewhat smaller is also relevant enough to be worthy of note, then.

 

[FeelMeUp]

At the very least, I'm glad this was made so we can finally do consistent low/mid tier tournaments.

...What have Marth, Greninja, Corrin, and Lucario done to be a full tier above Pit? Honest question. Pit's results at majors have only been improving since the last list.

On the other hand...





Hehe...



Because Dark Pit isn't equal to Pit, or even close to it. There's a good reason we haven't seen Earth pull out Pittwo outside of doubles in months.

stoppppppppppppp stopppp please
you're like Larry for Pit at this point.

 

[Fenny]

...What have Marth, Greninja, Corrin, and Lucario done to be a full tier above Pit? Honest question. Pit's results at majors have only been improving since the last list.

7th (False) at CEO 2016
13th (Mr E) and 17th (Pugwest) at EVO 2016
9th (Mr E), 13th (False) and 17th (Pugwest) at KTAR Saga
5th (Mr E) at Endgame

off the top of my head

so yeah, enough

 

[Yikarur]

I don't really think it makes much of a differences but it should at least be mentioned.
I think Lucina should at least be in the same tier as Marth.

 

[Fenny]

I don't really think it makes much of a differences but it should at least be mentioned.
I think Lucina should at least be in the same tier as Marth.

Yes. Like seriously, did they not realize how silly a 17 place difference between two mostly identical characters would be?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yes. Like seriously, did they not realize how silly a 17 place difference between two mostly identical characters would be?

It's a product of the clone factor. If you have two characters who are almost identical, why would anybody play or show any regard for the inferior clone?

Much the same goes for Dr. Mario.

 

[Sinister Slush]

They never announced the list of 4br people that got in like we used to do when this forum was active during BBR days. Hello team?

Yoshi should've been lower :^)
Surprised with the low placements for the likes of Wario lucas olimar Robin Girl Marth and the pit bros. Especially Robin and Olimar placements, was the deadline like 2 or 3 months back or something cause Shuton from Japan and Johan lately with Robin?

Why is Pika that high still, I don't see ESAM's name in the article for voters. Are people just that spooked of Pika players that're ESAM and tagxy of debating for 500 pages on how high Pika should actually be that any vote the 50+ people did for pika it actually held 5x more weight than every other character?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

...What have Marth, Greninja, Corrin, and Lucario done to be a full tier above Pit? Honest question. Pit's results at majors have only been improving since the last list.

So have Marth's. Even more so. One look at his results in the last few months will show that.
It's a good question when looking at the other three listed thogh, even if I don't agree with you because I do think they're better than Pit. However, what have Greninja, Lucario, and Corrin been up to lately? I remember back around Beast 6 that many people thought Greninja had a very good MU spread, apparently going even with most high/top tiers at the time with the exception of Sheik. Is that still the case? If so, then what's holding the frog back?

 

[FullMoon]

Supposedly somebody put Ike at freaking 7th worst.

I think I can safely tell you that no, that didn't happen.

I think the lowest placing Ike's gotten during voting that I saw was somewhere around bottom 15 which is... not exactly something I agree with but -shrug-

 

[Kofu]

It's a product of the clone factor. If you have two characters who are almost identical, why would anybody play or show any regard for the inferior clone?

Much the same goes for Dr. Mario.

Except, you know, Doc is significantly different from Mario and is an appreciably worse character because of the disparity in mobility. He's got a lot going for him nonetheless, but I don't feel like he's directly comparable to Mario.

On the other hand, Lucina plays almost identically to Marth with mobility and moves that are literally 1:1 in function with the Hero King. She just trades the added reward from tippers for consistency.

 

[Murlough]

It's a product of the clone factor. If you have two characters who are almost identical, why would anybody play or show any regard for the inferior clone?

Much the same goes for Dr. Mario.

The difference between Dr. and Mario is actually significant in my opinion. The difference between Marth and Lucina is becoming more negligable. I personally think Marth should also be before Lucina but only by a single place at most.

They are basically the same when you factor all the ups and downs.

Dr. on the other hand is not nearly as useful as Mario. He has a few things going for him but Mario is certainly superior. (unless I missed something which is very possible)

EDIT:'d

 

[EternalFlare]

He's getting flak for being horribly designed.

This. No one stated Lucario was bad, just that what made him good was nonsense.

People already don't like rage for good reason. He's rage amplified so naturally he's going to get hate.

But thanks to it he's always going to probably hands down the scariest character to face in tournament.

Pikachu's bair trades with Dolphin Slash and kills Marthcina pretty much instantly. Looks the exact same as bair trading with Firefox.
Stop this lol.

If you can react to Marth's up B and do a perfectly timed bair to trade with it, I don't know what you are doing here. You should be out winning majors with your frame perfect reaction time that no other human has.

In all seriousness if you honestly don't understand the difference between reacting to Fox's up B and trying to predict Marth's up B I have nothing more to say to you.

Vertically on grounded moves, yes. She's a shorter character.

1. Calm down and get your emotions out of these arguments.
2. The only word in that post was "No", I don't know how you managed to try and put words in my mouth about edge guarding.
3. Do you use either of these characters? I'm fairly certain pretty much ANY Marth or Lucina user would tell you they lose to Pikachu. Marth and Lucina struggle keeping Pikachu out. Having disjoints against a character that lacks them is not an auto win. Not only that, but this isn't melee, edge guarding doesn't have to happen right next to the stage. You can go way off and hit someone before they get the chance to come back in this game. Did you not consider that you can hit someone before they get close enough to use their up b?

1. I wasn't being emotional. I just knew you'd bring up edge guarding because that's what all Pika theory crafters bring up when they have zero evidence. And I was right based off the rest of your post.
3. Did you not consider Marth can save his double jump? Or swat Pika away? Use counter? Do an early up B once he reacts to Pika going offstage? Trying to cover all of these options makes it that much harder to edge guard, basically impossible to do consistently.

There's a reason you almost never see Mario/Marth/Lucina getting gimped. A lighting fast disjointed up B is a recipe for a stellar recovery in Smash 4.

Has Pika beaten Mr. E recently? Pugwest? MK Leo? If the top Marths really believe it's bad for them I highly doubt it's because of edge guarding and there must be other reasons we aren't considering. And regardless, results matter more than top player opinions.

 

[Murlough]

This. No one stated Lucario was bad, just that what made him good was nonsense.

People already don't like rage for good reason. He's rage amplified so naturally he's going to get hate.

But thanks to it he's always going to probably hands down the scariest character to face in tournament.


If you can react to Marth's up B and do a perfectly timed bair to trade with it, I don't know what you are doing here. You should be out winning majors with your frame perfect reaction time that no human has.

In all seriousness if you honestly don't understand the difference between reacting to Fox's up B and trying to predict Marth's up B I have nothing more to say to you.



1. I wasn't being emotional. I just knew you'd bring up edge guarding because that's what all Pika theory crafters bring up when they have zero evidence. And I was right based off the rest of your post.
3. Did you not consider Marth can save his double jump? Or swat Pika away? Use counter? Do an early up B once he reacts to Pika going offstage? Trying to cover all of these options makes it that much harder to edge guard, basically impossible to do consistently.

There's a reason you almost never see Mario/Marth/Lucina getting gimped. A lighting fast disjointed up B is a recipe for a stellar recovery in Smash 4.

Has Pika beaten Mr. E recently? Pugwest? MK Leo? If the top Marths really believe it's bad for them I highly doubt it's because of edge guarding and there must be other reasons we aren't considering. And regardless, results matter more than top player opinions.

.....I'm pretty sure anyone can "react" to a Marth/Lucina trying to recover to the ledge.

Did you avoid thinking before you posted or..?

 

[FeelMeUp]

If you can react to Marth's up B and do a perfectly timed bair to trade with it, I don't know what you are doing here. You should be out winning majors with your frame perfect reaction time that no other human has.

In all seriousness if you honestly don't understand the difference between reacting to Fox's up B and trying to predict Marth's up B I have nothing more to say to you.

You don't HAVE to react to Marth's up b.
Marth players ALWAYS go low. Are you seriously trying to do this, dude?
I only used firefox as an example to show you what happens to the characters.
I think I'm just going to stop responding you for good this time. You never seem to have a clue.

 

[EternalFlare]

.....I'm pretty sure anyone can "react" to a Marth/Lucina trying to recover to the ledge.

Did you avoid thinking before you posted or..?

Marth's up B starts up in 5 frames. That's not possible to react to.

All you can do is try to predict the exact moment where they will use it, that's not the same thing as reacting. If they even slightly change up the timing it completely throws off your punish. So it relies on luck and can never be consistent.

 

[Fenny]

It's a product of the clone factor. If you have two characters who are almost identical, why would anybody play or show any regard for the inferior clone?

Much the same goes for Dr. Mario.

Representation is important, yes. But in the case of Lucina, literally the only significant difference is the tipper. Dr Mario and Mario are so far apart because Dr Mario's differences make him suffer from low mobility, reduced combo potential and terrible recovery in comparison. Due to that, even if he was a standalone character, I highly doubt he'd be represented any better because he has intrinsically glaring faults individually.

Outside the tipper and a pretty measly vertical attack disadvantage, Lucina shares the same stats that let Marth's moves flow into each other so easily. Representation shouldn't be such a influential measure of the viability of a character. Lucina was cursed as a lesser Marth and so doesn't see much use - doesn't mean she doesn't at least stand on similar grounds with him.

 

[EternalFlare]

You don't HAVE to react to Marth's up b.
Marth players ALWAYS go low. Are you seriously trying to do this, dude?
I only used firefox as an example to show you what happens to the characters.
I think I'm just going to stop responding you for good this time. You never seem to have a clue.

Ledges are quite lenient in Brawl/Smash 4. As a result you aren't forced to do an up B at the exact same spot below the ledge to sweet spot it. And even if you don't sweet spot it it's not usually an issue if they already committed to an option. You can do it a bit early or late, and it will still auto snap eventually.

What you are suggesting is impossible to do consistently as a result.

Good Marth players are going to slightly vary their recovery timings below the stage. It's subtle but obvious to actual Marth players or anyone that plays characters that usually are forced to recover low.

 

[Yikarur]

Lack of Tipper is not even a disadvantage in terms of fsmash. Lucinas fsmash is clearly far superior to Marth's. Of course hitting with Marth's is completely ridiculous but the tipper is so small on that move and Marth mains don't even use fsmash to punish shield breaks so I consider Lucina's the better move. A Frame 10 fsmash which is really really strong. (and you can combo into it from SH sideB/1st hit Nair stuff.)

 

[Murlough]

Ledges are quite lenient in Brawl/Smash 4. As a result you aren't forced to do an up B at the exact same spot below the ledge to sweet spot it. And even if you don't sweet spot it it's not usually an issue if they already committed to an option. You can do it a bit early or late, and it will still auto snap eventually.

What you are suggesting is impossible to do consistently as a result.

Good Marth players are going to slightly vary their recovery timings below the stage. It's subtle but obvious to actual Marth players or anyone that plays characters that usually are forced to recover low.

Pikachu's bair lasts a good bit. If you have any ability to time your bair at all then its not difficult in the slightest to hit Marth when he recovers.

Marth can't wait out a full Pikachu bair before recovering. MAYBE if he has his double jump but I don't see that as likely if he is right under the ledge preparing for an up b.

 

[Krysco]

Maybe those who voted saw something in Pika that the majority of posters here don't see. Maybe they see the theory of the character and the supposed mu spread and think it checks out to that relative placement. At the same time, you don't exactly see people flocking to Pikachu and the players he does have don't get the results you'd expect from a character of that placing. Unless one of the Pika mains step their game up or someone else with amazing talent comes in and takes tournaments by storm or at least gets consistent top 8 placings and takes down big names with the mouse, I can see him dropping over time.

Buy hey, this is the same list that has a character that can barely, if ever get top 8 at nationals above the character that won Pound and has overall done pretty well with those who main the character and has a character with a garbage enough recovery for a top player to get beat by a lower level Luigi above that of a character that is the embodiment of safety along with being fast and being able to force a large amount of characters to approach.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Is nobody gonna look at the standard deviations and the voting data? Its very interesting how shulk had the sixth highest standard deviation out of the entire cast(with a deviation of 6.7), meaning he could have been placed between 35th to 47th considering his average was 41.77. Interesting.

EDIT: 8th highest, sorry

--
Ffamran

Here is a reliable samus matchup chart made by the top samus mains

What makes Link a favorable matchup? Properly using Hylian shield can almost invalidate her entire neutral in my experience, he can pressure her hard with correct spacing, his bomb ledge traps are equally threatening, and his kill power is more reliable

 

[EternalFlare]

Pikachu's bair lasts a good bit. If you have any ability to time your bair at all then its not difficult in the slightest to hit Marth when he recovers.

It is when he knows how to mix it up.

Personally when I use Marth and know they are trying to catch my up B I'll simply react to their short hop off-stage and put out my up B long before they have a chance to get out their aerial. It works well because the move is so fast. At this point it doesn't matter if I sweet spot or not, they aren't in a position to get a good punish off. Usually they just get hit. Even if they did a run off bair, again that's mostly luck based, they had to have done it before my up B came out so an early one disrupts this. If I have a double jump saved it's a non-issue entirely.

Ally does something similar with Mario. If he reacts to you going next to him offstage he INSTANTLY up Bs, again the up B being high doesn't matter, he's safe from the gimp.

Look we can all pretend in theory land and make any character sound good. In reality, Pikachu doesn't have results and he certainly isn't as consistent at edge guarding as people would have you believe. Actual matches are never as simple as theory.