Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

I only have a few things I think for sure should happen the next tier list:

- Only character that should move up above Ike is Lucina. Should should shoot up to very close to Marth.

- Marth, Bayonetta, Bowser should rise significantly.

- F/G tier should reshuffle but nobody should be leaving that tier in either direction

Buuuut knowing how these things work people will have gone "z0ng Link/Shulk/Duck Hunt got results in the last month? Up to mid tier with them!" Despite the fact they're just doing the same kind of jumps Palutena did... who promptly fell back down to earth once people figured her out. Which will happen again for all three of those characters.

Saying these characters have only gotten results very recently is pure ignorance on your part.

Which makes sense, since whenever the conversation turns to Japanese results, you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend they're meaningless.

 

[soniczx123]

I understand that but characters with bad grabs aren't the most susceptible to Witch time. Characters whose neutral is centralized to long pokes (marth), characters that utilize one move a lot (cloud dair) and characters with long lasting hit boxes (bayonetta) are most vulnerable to Witch time. Zss has good frame data and mobility. She starts combos off grabs and dtilts and up airs. Having a te tether grab is fine because if the bayonetta reads a normal attack and the zss pivot grabs or does a normal grab zss is still at disadvantage yes but she's still better off than getting witch timed as the witch time will stale on whiff. Zss zair is vulnerable to Witch time as its a hit.
As for her aerials I play bayonetta and when a zss is getting witch timed from an air attack it's rare as bayonetta doesn't want to risk it and a smart zss player knows when it's OK to risk witch time and as a light character bayonetta doesn't want any part of that zss bair. Against bayo zss should want to be on the ground even if that isn't traditionally what she does she shouldn't be fighting air battles with a character that flies.
Zss can go very long stretches without hitting a vulnerable button to getting witch timed like Mario, Luigi, and mew two, and shield can. Characters I list among other cant. The most vulnerable moves zss has are Nair and zair outside of that it takes a hard read for a bayonetta to Witch time zss or any of the other characters I mentioned

ZSS's doesn't start combos ircc, it's too slow with too much endlang to really convert off of it.

 

[Floor]

I can't even begin to attempt to comprehend this logic right here...

They are playing the exact same game with the exact same stats as the rest of the world. There's no reason to not include them

I think the logic is that Japan usually makes their own tier list anyway; they play the game differently and value certain aspects and combos over ours and vice versa. So if there's going to be a Japanese tier list, why wouldnt we have a NA/EU exclusive one? Either separate them or make 1; honestly i like both options but I would think this guy likes them separate.

I think the logic is perfectly valid; just of matter of whether or not you agree. I'm on the fence

 

[TDK]

I think the logic is that Japan usually makes their own tier list anyway; they play the game differently and value certain aspects and combos over ours and vice versa. So if there's going to be a Japanese tier list, why wouldnt we have a NA/EU exclusive one? Either separate them or make 1; honestly i like both options but I would think this guy likes them separate.

I think the logic is perfectly valid; just of matter of whether or not you agree. I'm on the fence

The only reasons past games regions have had different tier lists were as follows:

- They had a completely different version of the game
- They didn't travel regularly at all, so each region was its own little bubble
- The internet didn't wasn't widespread and common yet, so people couldn't really see information from non-local areas that well
- Wi/Fi battles didn't exist or sucked

Smash 4 has none of these things. It's extremely global and should be treated as such.

 

[Floor]

The only reasons past games regions have had different tier lists were as follows:

- They had a completely different version of the game
- They didn't travel regularly at all, so each region was its own little bubble
- The internet didn't wasn't widespread and common yet, so people couldn't really see information from non-local areas that well
- Wi/Fi battles didn't exist or sucked

Smash 4 has none of these things. It's extremely global and should be treated as such.

Not that Smash Flash was ever a widespread thing but that's one example right off the bat that kinda breaks that rule; Japan had their own tier list. TBH i dont know much about Smash flash either but i imagine it does indeed break these rules but cant be 100% sure. You seem to be on the side that their should be one single tier list; a global tier list. That is fine but Japan will probably make their own anyway, in which case "Japan's vote" is counted twice.

I can tell that arguing this isn't going to go well so I'm just going to say that a point that could be made is that it should be indicated or labeled what a tier list is saying and what kind of tier list Smashboards is making. A global one? a NA one? Japanese? ect; the metas are different and there's no denying that. Having multiple tier lists accounts for this discrepancy quite well. The discussion would be whether or not we need 1 tier list, 2, 3, or whatever.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Floor 1 tier list and a post tier list article that sums up the regional differences. Like we already do.

You take the up-air, you live to fight another day.

You AD, and you die to air rest/stomp

I see now.
What does Mac has to punish an airdodge ?

 

[Routa]

What does Mac has to punish an airdodge ?

Sweetspot U-smash. I have seen way too many people fall into it.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Floor 1 tier list and a post tier list article that sums up the regional differences. Like we already do.



I see now.
What does Mac has to punish an airdodge ?

If he's already on the ground, he can clock you with a Smash attack, which is no bueno for you. If he has to land first, his trampling F-tilt is frame 4 and can also kill you.

God, Mac's F-tilt is such a silly button.

I suppose he could also Up-B you if you're both in the air, which is another kill option, though he's obviously in trouble if he misses.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That's mostly assuming you're directly above little mac and little mac is on the ground or if he gets knocked into the air he'll FF. He's not completely helpless in the air (UpB, Side B just to name a couple) but little mac doesn't have many buttons he can use while in Mid-air. (of course that's his 'weakness') I will admit unless you're timing your airdodge when little mac releases his smash you're going to get clobbered unless you jump out of range.

 

[|RK|]

Well, whatever the case is with this tier list, I'd hope voting starts a few weeks after Frostbite. That way we get the Japanese talent (mostly Tsu and T) to show of the capabilities of their characters.

As an aside:
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/

SilentDoom shared Ruben's calculator on Twitter eariler, and I have to say... this is a straight upgrade to the Spacejam calculator. And no need to download anything, either! It's super useful if you lab things from time to time.

 

[Deleted member]

Saying these characters have only gotten results very recently is pure ignorance on your part.

Which makes sense, since whenever the conversation turns to Japanese results, you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend they're meaningless.

Definitely agreed.

Shulk has been racking in results ever since GOML 2016, it's not just "lul he got results in the last month".

 

[Jaguar360]

Not that Smash Flash was ever a widespread thing but that's one example right off the bat that kinda breaks that rule; Japan had their own tier list. TBH i dont know much about Smash flash either but i imagine it does indeed break these rules but cant be 100% sure. You seem to be on the side that their should be one single tier list; a global tier list. That is fine but Japan will probably make their own anyway, in which case "Japan's vote" is counted twice.

I can tell that arguing this isn't going to go well so I'm just going to say that a point that could be made is that it should be indicated or labeled what a tier list is saying and what kind of tier list Smashboards is making. A global one? a NA one? Japanese? ect; the metas are different and there's no denying that. Having multiple tier lists accounts for this discrepancy quite well. The discussion would be whether or not we need 1 tier list, 2, 3, or whatever.

The Japanese scene for Super Smash Flash 2 is newer than that of the American/European scene and there isn't quite as much interaction between the English and Japanese scenes as there is in Sm4sh. With Sm4sh, the scenes for the Americas, Europe and Japan all started at about the same time with the exception of the Japanese version of Smash 3DS coming out about a month earlier than in America. Characters tend to get different results in different regions for sure, but in this game we have the resources and sheer community results to have a somewhat acceptable global tier list compared to other Smash games.

Well, whatever the case is with this tier list, I'd hope voting starts a few weeks after Frostbite. That way we get the Japanese talent (mostly Tsu and T) to show of the capabilities of their characters.

As an aside:
http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/

SilentDoom shared Ruben's calculator on Twitter eariler, and I have to say... this is a straight upgrade to the Spacejam calculator. And no need to download anything, either! It's super useful if you lab things from time to time.

Voting's already started I think, I believe I saw someone post their tier list for the 4BR on Twitter a few days ago.

EDIT: Marcbri's: https://twitter.com/Marcbri/status/832266692084559872
Sinnyboo's: https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/833904033068888064

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Guess I'll restate it
Thoughts on 3rd tier list

moving way up. Lucina is top 10 imo but I expect her to be at top 15 or so. Bowser maybe around top 20, Marth top 10, Zard i think will move on up to mid tier or high low; he's not bottom 5 or anywhere near that. Bayo top 3; probably #1.

Moving down a bit. It's not that they are bad; they are still really good but their results have been slipping. Kameme hasn't done well since I think it was EVO when he got to grands. Sonic hasn't been in the spotlight for a long time since Komo has been using Cloud mostly in top 16. Larry Lurr has also been slipping a bit and plays a lot of DK these days anyway.

Can't wait to see ESAM's reaction when Pika is barely in top 20

I fail to understand how Lucina can possibly be top 10

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

The Japanese scene for Super Smash Flash 2 is newer than that of the American/European scene and there isn't quite as much interaction between the English and Japanese scenes as there is in Sm4sh. With Sm4sh, the scenes for the Americas, Europe and Japan all started at about the same time with the exception of the Japanese version of Smash 3DS coming out about a month earlier than in America. Characters tend to get different results in different regions for sure, but in this game we have the resources and sheer community results to have a somewhat acceptable global tier list compared to other Smash games.



Voting's already started I think, I believe I saw someone post their tier list for the 4BR on Twitter a few days ago.

EDIT: Marcbri's: https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/833904033068888064
Sinnyboo's: https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/833904033068888064

Uh you put sinnyboos tier list twice. The tier list should be coming out soon though

 

[Vyrnx]

@Nidtendofreak the thing is, you have very little consistency in this argument of yours that you've been restating the last 8 months or so--that characters need to maintain a consistently good level of results in order for a valid shift in the community's opinion to occur. There's nothing here to necessarily disagree with, but you don't use these criteria yourself.

You made a post a while back about how Olimar is going to sink back down to earth following his, "recent surge," of results. Meanwhile, Shuton has placed top 4 at eleven out of fifteen tournaments he has attended, and that was something that had been going on for a long time when you posted that. That's in addition to Dabuz's increased secondary usage and Myran's good regional results.

Duck Hunt has obviously been getting good results in Japan for a very long time. This matches exactly what you say a character "needs" for an opinion shift. You just have a preconceived notion of Duck Hunt that doesn't align with what his good players achieve. Three or four months before G4, you made a post somewhere about how you were going to have to deal with all of the people who would end up thinking that Duck Hunt is mid tier after G4. And after G4, you made a string of posts about, "Great, now everyone is gonna think Duck Hunt is mid tier or something," when in fact he likely is and that's been something multiple people in this thread have thought since late 2015/early 2016.

It's pretty frustrating that well before G4 actually happened, during G4, and now, after G4, Duck Hunt discussion immediately got shut down by people who decided that they think this character is bad and whose consistent Japanese results they don't think matter, and who think that Zinoto's poor luck and ZeRo's SDs confirm this.

There are more material things to consider here even disregarding Brood's luck.
-G4 was one of the most stacked tournaments ever.
-G4 represents the peak of Smash 4 meta development that's been building for two plus years, or at least since the last patch.
-There were 3 DHs in top 64 and they all beat some of NA's high to top level players.
-This is in addition to two plus years of garnering good results in a top region and beating some of the world's top players that happen to reside there.

There's also actual character analysis or an attempt to understand why this character that NA perceives as bad isn't bad in the right hands. But thus far, there's been no analysis of Duck Hunt following G4 other than a link to a document that Croi made.

Whenever there's something out of the ordinary that happens, such as DH players placing well in NA, Shulk or others doing well, there will be a post that pops up in this thread, "Everyone is gonna overreact now!" Let's say T somehow upsets Ally this weekend. Is the best response to deny discussion of this character being better than he's perceived before the discussion begins?

Saying that a character needs to maintain a consistent level of results for a while before they're moved is correct. Saying it over and over again about a character means that your personal opinion is repeatedly failing to align with the character's results for a sustained period of time and shows an inability to reassess opinions. I think you've realized this by now and instead are saying, "The Japanese meta is different and doesn't count as much," which is utterly absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if the narrative shifted to, "The DH players are good, the character is still bad," another common argument that weights personal bias > results and another statement that doesn't require understanding of the character to make.

I remember a long time ago that following a major you were excited three Ike players made top 32 and there was plenty of Ike discussion for a month or so. I don't see what the difference is, except that DH has had objectively mid tier results in a top region for a long time, yet before discussion on him begins, you reply with a grotesquely exaggerated imitation of people who might say the character is good to try to preemptively make them look dumb, "'zoNgzers DH is so gud guyZ !!'"

The statement being correct in the case of Palutena doesn't make it correct all of the time, and doesn't mean that you know more than everyone else and can be constantly abrasive.

 

[Floor]

One of the two people Jaguar360 showed had tier lists left out Lucina... so abstaining is a thing unless i missed her after 3 look overs and im blind

 

[L9999]

I fail to understand how Lucina can possibly be top 10

Tell me how Lucina's MUs are drastically different than Marth's who you consider top tier without question. Lucina has the same strenghts as Marth.

 

[|RK|]

Voting's already started I think, I believe I saw someone post their tier list for the 4BR on Twitter a few days ago.

EDIT: Marcbri's: https://twitter.com/Marcbri/status/832266692084559872
Sinnyboo's: https://twitter.com/Sinnyboo242/status/833904033068888064

So basically the 4BR loves hearing their tier list is outdated mere moments after creating it? What poor timing.

 

[ARGHETH]

Three or four months before G4, you made a post somewhere about how you were going to have to deal with all of the people who would end up thinking that Duck Hunt is mid tier after G4. And after G4, you made a string of posts about, "Great, now everyone is gonna think Duck Hunt is mid tier or something," when in fact he likely is and that's been something multiple people in this thread have thought since late 2015/early 2016.

It's pretty frustrating that well before G4 actually happened, during G4, and now, after G4, Duck Hunt discussion immediately got shut down by people who decided that they think this character is bad and whose consistent Japanese results they don't think matter, and who think that Zinoto's poor luck and ZeRo's SDs confirm this.

There are more material things to consider here even disregarding Brood's luck.
-G4 was one of the most stacked tournaments ever.
-G4 represents the peak of Smash 4 meta development that's been building for two plus years, or at least since the last patch.
-There were 3 DHs in top 64 and they all beat some of NA's high to top level players.
-This is in addition to two plus years of garnering good results in a top region and beating some of the world's top players that happen to reside there.

Obviously DH's results can't be ignored, but I'm not entirely sure how much weight we should put on Genesis 4. On one hand, it was ridiculously stacked, and getting 25th, 33rd, and 49th is amazing but on the other hand, this was literally the first time the three DHs had played in a tournament in the US (ignoring the pre-genesis locals). Almost no one had played a DH on that level before. DH's probably moving to high low tier minimum, but this result should be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, we have a long history of overreacting to characters...

 

[Floor]

L9999 knows what's up. She's like 98% identical as Marth and Tweek, ZeRo, Max Ketchum, and many many many others are flocking to the conclusion that she's top 15 / top tier. I used to be the minority, thinking Lucina was high tier while many others thought she was bottom... Now that has changed and the argument is widely top tier or high tier; top 10 or about top 15. No sense in trying to convince you, TheGoodGuava , but it's not an outrageous belief at all. That mystical gap between the two is being accepted as less and less each month if you want to believe it exists at all

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tell me how Lucina's MUs are drastically different than Marth's who you consider top tier without question. Lucina has the same strenghts as Marth.

She doesn't kill at 80% with safe neutral pokes. She's a strong character but she has a trillion even matchups, what makes Marth better is that most of those matchups become more skewed in Marth's favor the longer the match goes on

Playing neutral against Lucina at 90% is playing the neutral. Against Marth? He's going to kill you with the same moves he's using to poke at your shield and keep you out. It's dancing with death.
I also have to ask, what character would Lucina be replacing as a top 10 character? Right now the top 10 is something like with occasionally swapping around with Mewtwo, Marth, or Cloud. Do you really think Lucina is better than any of those characters?

Floor like it or not, there is a gap. It's over exaggerated by the current tier list but it is real and will never go away

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think Lucina's outside of top tier in the ~15-18 range while Marth just barely makes it in the ~9-12 range.

 

[Floor]

She doesn't kill at 80% with safe neutral pokes. She's a strong character but she has a trillion even matchups, what makes Marth better is that most of those matchups become more skewed in Marth's favor the longer the match goes on

Playing neutral against Lucina at 90% is playing the neutral. Against Marth? He's going to kill you with the same moves he's using to poke at your shield and keep you out. It's dancing with death.
I also have to ask, what character would Lucina be replacing as a top 10 character? Right now the top 10 is something like with occasionally swapping around with Mewtwo, Marth, or Cloud. Do you really think Lucina is better than any of those characters?

Without a doubt. Ally admitted Mario was #9; Rosa just lost her only higher level player and Larry hasn't done much with Fox lately and is equalizing his usage with DK. Sonic hasn't seen top 8 since.. when? top 16 maaaybe once overy other tournament? Lucina could easily be around . Keep in mind that in Smash 4, everyone in top 15 is hella viable; just cause you're not in top 10 doesn't mean your bad by any means. Mewtwo and Zss are still wonderful but I'd say Lucina is better. At the lower end of top 10, but top 10 with Marth.

Also I've done the math. At the worst, Lucina will need about 1 or 2 more hits the kill; meaning her moves kill about 15% later than Marth tipper (cause lets not forget that ever move isnt an auto tipper). And by % i mean % difference not % as in damage.

I firmly believe whatever gap people want to say exists is so small. Really, there is no gap in my eyes and many players agree and it's provable. Just look at Tweek's tier list (on twitter, not hard to find) and watch ZeRo's streams and videos. Max Ketchum even put Lucina over Marth on a doubles tier list. Not the same meta exactly, ut the point stands that he recognizes the advantages playing Lucina has

 

[T4ylor]

Floor How could you forget that Rosalina has Kirihara?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mewtwo and ZSS are still wonderful but I'd say Lucina is better

gonna need a damn strong argument for lucina being better than mewtwo...

 

[Floor]

FeelMeUp
1. https://twitter.com/TweekSsb/status/833764651628388352
2. Better matchup spread; her biggest weakness is like Sonic; other top tiers are at worst between even and 45:55 if we want to throw out pointless numbers.
3. Any Marth being a top tier recycled minus "he can kill you one or two hits earlier"
4. Generally safer; heavier plus safer options. Both she and Mewtwo kill pretty early if done right but Lucina is safer while doing it

The real take away here is that there's still a large community that treats her like Marth and never bought into that "meh no tipper" stuff that made ESAM think she was bottom 3 (I'm still laughing)

 

[ARGHETH]

Without a doubt. Ally admitted Mario was #9; Rosa just lost her only higher level player and Larry hasn't done much with Fox lately and is equalizing his usage with DK. Sonic hasn't seen top 8 since.. when? top 16 maaaybe once overy other tournament? Lucina could easily be around .

First, Larry hasn't used DK in serious matches in a while, and certainly not at an equals amount to his Fox. Also, Ally has been saying that Mario's secretly trash for...how long now? Admitting would be ESAM saying Pikachu's out of top 15, Ally saying Mario's on the low end of top 10 is standard.
Second, you can't seriously be using results to say that Rosa/Fox/Sonic aren't good while ignoring Lucina's complete lack of results. Marth's tippers are kind of a big thing; you can't just say that Lucina's top 10 if Marth is.

Also, Sonic's last top 8 is 6WX getting 7th at Genesis saga, which also had Komo beating Zenyou and going 2-1 with Void using Sonic.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

FeelMeUp
1. https://twitter.com/TweekSsb/status/833764651628388352
2. Better matchup spread; her biggest weakness is like Sonic; other top tiers are at worst between even and 45:55 if we want to throw out pointless numbers.
3. Any Marth being a top tier recycled minus "he can kill you one or two hits earlier"
4. Generally safer; heavier plus safer options. Both she and Mewtwo kill pretty early if done right but Lucina is safer while doing it

Stop lying to yourself. Her neutral cannot begin to compare to Mewtwo's, his punish game is a thousand times better, and how the hell does she kill earlier or safer than him? Nair 1 > fsmash? Neither nair 1 or f smash is safe lmao
If you think Lucina's matchup spread is better than Mewtwo's then you've never seen a Mewtwo matchup spread
Nobody said anything about % difference, its safety that matters and Marth kills in a much safer way.

Lucina does not belong in top 10, saying that she can replace neutral gods with punish games and results a thousand times better than hers is just being delusional.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Actually, the move is kinda laggy surprisingly.

Just a few days ago someone from my scene had troubles with Diddys fair and I asked him if he wanted to try some stuff out.
I was kinda surprised that Diddy couldn't even do anything after an instant shorthop fair besides landing with it. It just has a really amazing autocancel window.
Of course this autocancelwindow makes the move work better, but there are things you can do against this move.

It's great to catch someone with it since the hitbox stays out for a bit, it has good range, and of course, the great autocancel window.
If you compare the move to Brawl or prepatch you'd actually notice just how weak of a move it is (I don't like it too much anymore). Though in Brawl it didn't have such a big autocancel window.

As for the moves limitations:
Since you can only land after a shorthop fair (or of course fall down further if you're on edges or something) players will mostly just do instant sh fair, or landing fair to mix it up.

Landing fair is extremely punishable, but you need to predict the Diddy to go for it. Mewtwo can, for example stop shielding and hit Diddy with a Disable (downB) when Diddy has his fair landinglag in front of it.
I see Zero do this A LOT to mix up his fair timing so you'll never know when to release shield. You need to try being ready for it so you'll be able to punish it hard.

Since landing fair is so punishable, Diddys should mostly be going for instant fair out of a short hop and not the landing one. This move can be hard to punish and Ryu, for example, can't punish the move at all out of shield if it is spaced really well. Closest thing was a sideB, but a fastfalled fair will autocancel in time and Diddy will be able to powershield Ryus sideB attempt since Ryu has to move closer to Diddy first for it to be able to hit.

So, this fair can be a really annoying wall, even if you manage to shield it you might not be able to punish it. And if you don't you'll be hit away and out of Diddys space, or at low % you'll still be there and he might try to hit you again with it. It can seem a little braindead and a hard wall to overcome, but there's a trick for that... - You can just duck under it! This way you won't be hit away from Diddy, he won't be able to hit you at all with it (there are 4 exceptions, shoutouts to Ninjalink who actually made a list and had a "Diddys flaws" livestream a few days ago; the exceptions are: Bowser, Ganondorf, Samus and Ryu (Ryu can avoid sh fair by dtilting, though)).
Characters with crawls benefit even more from that. Since Diddy has to land after the fair you have enough time to punish him.
[edit: to add onto this: some characters are small enough that they won't get hit by Diddys rising fair/bair at all! For example Pikachu, Olimar, MK or Greninja; those characters don't really have to worry about that and this helps a lot (and is annoying for the Diddy player)]

This takes away from the move and I myself have actually stopped using it "braindeadly" some time ago and switched to short hop bair, since Diddy is able to do two in one shorthop / or can try to retreat after the first one, which makes any approach attemps with them much safer.

It shouldn't be as strong as it is seen right now imo.

Do you have the list for the crouching diddy fair?

 

[outfoxd]

Maybe we need codified minimum criteria for any tier shifting, because right now we're going by feelings and general perception. Maybe minimum top 32s over time or something.

Like i said months ago though: DH gotta win a major to move anywhere.

 

[my_T]

wow, some people on this board really just write Japan off like it's some sort of imaginary fairy tale kingdom

 

[Floor]

First, Larry hasn't used DK in serious matches in a while, and certainly not at an equals amount to his Fox. Also, Ally has been saying that Mario's secretly trash for...how long now?
Second, you can't seriously be using results to say that Rosa/Fox/Sonic aren't good while ignoring Lucina's complete lack of results. Marth's tippers are kind of a big thing; you can't just say that Lucina's top 10 if Marth is.

(I mean you kinda can).

Tbh I don't go off of results much but I know other's like them. have plenty of representation and don't make it super far (rip ). Lucina doesn't get top x in a tournament because she has little representation that can contribute to her and her alone. Even still, Nakat Salem and Nairo all use her in top level play and do well with her. Not to mention Mr. E and Pugwest have been known to bring her out.

EDIT: Saw your edit; Gen Saga was like the 1 tournament i didnt get to watch. Didn't get to see any of that but aside from Gen Saga then Sonic has been pretty dead

TheGoodGuava
I'm not lying to myself and quite frankly I believe she does belong in top 10; It's not a far fethched view. Her neutral can't compare? Pretty hard to believe that. The reason it's so hard to get in on Marth is because on range + Marth's frame data and moveset which Lucina directly inherits - 3 pixels of range. Marth is made good by his moveset; tipper is only a fraction of what makes Marth good. And yes, Lucina kills early; if you don't know that it's because you haven't seen much Lucina and I can't blame you for that. Many Marth elitists are surprised to see just how early Lucina kills tbh

 

[ARGHETH]

(I mean you kinda can).

Tbh I don't go off of results much but I know other's like them. have plenty of representation and don't make it super far (rip ). Lucina doesn't get top x in a tournament because she has little representation that can contribute to her and her alone. Even still, Nakat Salem and Nairo all use her in top level play and do well with her. Not to mention Mr. E and Pugwest have been known to bring her out.

6wx got 7th at Genesis saga, Komo still uses him often, and KEN's been doing well in Japan for a while now.
As for Fox...5th at Midwest Mayhem Saga, 13th at Genesis 4, 2nd at Zero Saga, and 7th at UGC. That sound like not making it super far to you?
Nairo has used Lucina, yes, but for like three tournaments. Outside of that one premajor that he only used Lucina, he's won maybe five games with her, maximum. How many have Nakat and Salem won? Nakat won a set with her, but that's all I know.

Many Marth elitists are surprised to see just how early Lucina kills tbh

...seriously?

 

[Floor]

6wx got 7th at Genesis saga, Komo still uses him often, and KEN's been doing well in Japan for a while now.
As for Fox...5th at Midwest Mayhem Saga, 13th at Genesis 4, 2nd at Zero Saga, and 7th at UGC. That sound like not making it super far to you?
Nairo has used Lucina, yes, but for like three tournaments. Outside of that one premajor that he only used Lucina, he's won maybe five games with her, maximum. How many have Nakat and Salem won? Nakat won a set with her, but that's all I know.


...seriously?

Unsure on the exact tournaments but Salem used Lucina a lot in doubles for sure and got far. Maybe UGC or Zero Saga (think both actually). Different meta, sure

As for Fox...5th at Midwest Mayhem Saga, 13th at Genesis 4, 2nd at Zero Saga, and 7th at UGC. That sound like not making it super far to you? Again, Fox at least has someone using him quite often. No one is playing Rosa now and she might dip a little for it but Rosa is still undeniably top tier and she will be for a long time. Aside from Ryu's recent breakout, he was still known to be pretty good despite that.

And yes, seriously. I've spoken with them and they insist she kills 40 % later until they see its actually like 15% on bread and butter kill options

 

[TheGoodGuava]

(I mean you kinda can).

Tbh I don't go off of results much but I know other's like them. have plenty of representation and don't make it super far (rip ). Lucina doesn't get top x in a tournament because she has little representation that can contribute to her and her alone. Even still, Nakat Salem and Nairo all use her in top level play and do well with her. Not to mention Mr. E and Pugwest have been known to bring her out.

TheGoodGuava
I'm not lying to myself and quite frankly I believe she does belong in top 10; It's not a far fethched view. Her neutral can't compare? Pretty hard to believe that. The reason it's so hard to get in on Marth is because on range + Marth's frame data and moveset which Lucina directly inherits - 3 pixels of range. Marth is made good by his moveset; tipper is only a fraction of what makes Marth good. And yes, Lucina kills early; if you don't know that it's because you haven't seen much Lucina and I can't blame you for that. Many Marth elitists are surprised to see just how early Lucina kills tbh

I never said anything about how early she kills, I said that she can't safely convert into a stock. Marth does this through safe Jabs and neutral pokes like ftil, fair, and bair. How does Lucina do this? Oh, she doesn't
You're severely under rating the tip, saying its only a fraction of what makes Marth as good as he is just blind stupidity. Being able to convert directly into a kill from a neutral poke is a strength that you CANNOT underestimate and is what makes Marth as good as he is. Lucina cannot do this.

Mewtwo's neutral is easily top 5, only really rivaled by Sheiks. Lucina's is strong, but its not on the same level. His punish game is ridiculous with 40% strings, bull**** juggles, and dumb ledge trapping. Lucina doesn't have a way to stuff your landing at 80% and kill you for it. She doesn't get to kill you at 60% because she read your ledge getup, and she sure as hell doesn't get 40% strings off of a frame 6 dtilt. Her disadvantage is also pretty damn bad unlike Mewtwo's

Unsure on the exact tournaments but Salem used Lucina a lot in doubles for sure and got far. Maybe UGC or Zero Saga (think both actually). Different meta, sure

As for Fox...5th at Midwest Mayhem Saga, 13th at Genesis 4, 2nd at Zero Saga, and 7th at UGC. That sound like not making it super far to you? Again, Fox at least has someone using him quite often. No one is playing Rosa now and she might dip a little for it but Rosa is still undeniably top tier and she will be for a long time. Aside from Ryu's recent breakout, he was still known to be pretty good despite that.

And yes, seriously. I've spoken with them and they insist she kills 40 % later until they see its actually like 15% on bread and butter kill options

When's the last time a solo Lucina got anything comparable to a solo Fox's results?

Also replacing Mario? The character that has won multiple majors and super majors including Evo? lmao

Also, just so were clear, nobody is saying she isn't viable. Just that she isn't a top 10 character

 

[|RK|]

Rage Lucina actually kills mad early. In either case, 10 is a number we picked because it's a very nice number. Top 10 is still arbitrary. Numbers 11 through 15 are probably just as good as, say 4-10. But the way we discuss it makes it seems like there's a real strength cutoff sometimes... there really isn't.


EDIT: TheGoodGuava Isn't Lucina's Nair 1 a kill confirm? I remember a good bit of discussion about how she has that over Marth.

 

[TDK]

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Nearly posted a news link here, whooops.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Rage Lucina actually kills mad early. In either case, 10 is a number we picked because it's a very nice number. Top 10 is still arbitrary. Numbers 11 through 15 are probably just as good as, say 4-10. But the way we discuss it makes it seems like there's a real strength cutoff sometimes... there really isn't.


EDIT: TheGoodGuava Isn't Lucina's Nair 1 a kill confirm? I remember a good bit of discussion about how she has that over Marth.

it is a kill confirm but neither nair 1 or f smash are safe. Its also fairly easy to powershield nair 1 and punish her for it

 

[ARGHETH]

Rage Lucina actually kills mad early. In either case, 10 is a number we picked because it's a very nice number. Top 10 is still arbitrary. Numbers 11 through 15 are probably just as good as, say 4-10. But the way we discuss it makes it seems like there's a real strength cutoff sometimes... there really isn't.

The problem is more the Lucina is top tier implication, along with the statements that she was better than Mewtwo and ZSS.

 

[Floor]

I never said anything about how early she kills, I said that she can't safely convert into a stock. Marth does this through safe Jabs and neutral pokes like ftil, fair, and bair. How does Lucina do this? Oh, she doesn't
You're severely under rating the tip, saying its only a fraction of what makes Marth as good as he is just blind stupidity. Being able to convert directly into a kill from a neutral poke is a strength that you CANNOT underestimate and is what makes Marth as good as he is. Lucina cannot do this.

Mewtwo's neutral is easily top 5, only really rivaled by Sheiks. Lucina's is strong, but its not on the same level. His punish game is ridiculous with 40% strings, bull**** juggles, and dumb ledge trapping. Lucina doesn't have a way to stuff your landing at 80% and kill you for it. She doesn't get to kill you at 60% because she read your ledge getup, and she sure as hell doesn't get 40% strings off of a frame 6 dtilt. Her disadvantage is also pretty damn bad unlike Mewtwo's


When's the last time a solo Lucina got anything comparable to a solo Fox's results?

Also replacing Mario? The character that has won multiple majors and super majors including Evo? lmao

Also, just so were clear, nobody is saying she isn't viable. Just that she isn't a top 10 character

If you played Lucina for more than a minute you'd know you're severly underrrating her here. Her pokes do the same thing and are as safe; sheild stun is same - 1 frame iirc. Jab > fsmash is as true with Lucina as it is Marth (pretty sure neither are true though). The only really kill option Lucina has that is particularly weaker is jab > ftilt, which kills as Marth as high percents with rage (i.e. not amazing). Lucina has mad confirms of aerials and her neutral pokes lead to the same things. Lucina does have roughly 40% combos (she has 0-death combos tbh but that's platform stuff that i wont get into). Falling up air and jab and uptilt lead into nasty 40% combos or more dependent on stage and opponent's character.

"She doesn't get to kill you at 60% because she read your ledge getup"
1. Fsmash or nair 1 > fsmash.
2. A little higher than 60% and we got rage bair

The point I was initially making is that there is a large school of people that treat Lucina like a top 10 character. That's something you can't really deny; Tweek, ZeRo, and pretty sure Max Ketchum for one. That's still 3 large personalities and Smash leaders and I can guarantee there are many others