Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Yup. This game is about burst conversion. That is how you win at the top level.

Her burst conversion relies heavily on dash grabs. Unsafe as all hell for a tether grab, but the reward is there. It is what she needs to do to remain a relevant tournament threat.

FeelMeUp It is very agreeable within the context that I used it.

Her option coverage on SINGLE moves is lower for various scenarios. Meaning that ok look at Diddy's fair. The amount of situations where you will throw this move out are pretty vast. So fast that many times Diddy players will just toss it out, even just to take up space. The move is just THAT good.

Are you slightly butthurt that I mentioned Sheik in that sentence?

If it bugs you then just sub in Cloud or Bayo for her. I will admit it applies less so for sheik then it does for them. Especially because for Bayo generally the answer to any ground scenario be it neutral or a trap situation is simply to Witch Twist lol.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The only bad thing I would say about Diddy's Fair is that it's unsafe to land with.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yup. This game is about burst conversion. That is how you win at the top level.

Her burst conversion relies heavily on dash grabs. Unsafe as all hell for a tether grab, but the reward is there. It is what she needs to do to remain a relevant tournament threat.

FeelMeUp It is very agreeable within the context that I used it.

Her option coverage on SINGLE moves is lower for various scenarios. Meaning that ok look at Diddy's fair. The amount of situations where you will throw this move out are pretty vast. So fast that many times Diddy players will just toss it out, even just to take up space. The move is just THAT good.

Are you slightly butthurt that I mentioned Sheik in that sentence?

If it bugs you then just sub in Cloud or Bayo for her. I will admit it applies less so for sheik then it does for them. Especially because for Bayo generally the answer to any ground scenario be it neutral or a trap situation is simply to Witch Twist lol.

nah, i just think it's silly that in your statement you said zss requires more effort/thinking than sheik. that's pretty blatantly false. besides, i don't really get "triggered" by anything sheik related. you should know i've been preaching how stupid my character is since the nerf lmfao.
regardless, the thing i feel you're kinda missing is the fact that zss still functions as a mobile zoner with one or two very very strong burst options.
there's no reason for you to engage most of the cast in a cqc situation. you can poke at mid/close-mid-range with safe moves while getting those raw grabs once they're conditioned to keep shielding. it's why i think she beats mario solidly. he has a lot of trouble breaking her zone and doesn't have the broken ground moves, mobility, or aerials that let him cut off entire chunks of her game.
the only thing i'd say makes her difficult to use is what i outlined; she gets abused by characters that have the full package:
better neutral
powerful ground game
aerials that can stuff her jumps on reaction

 

[Emblem Lord]

In....that...specific...category...she...requires....more....thought.

lololol

Sheik overall is indeed a thought intensive character and you have said that before, as I'm sure you know.

But here is the thing...and this is where I take a jab at some of you....

No top tier players actually know how to deal with disadvantage because they have easy mode escape buttons so I mean....how much thinking are you actually doing?

See how context is relevant? In that specific game state/category, top tiers are actually leaning towards braindead because they do not need to think as much as other characters that do not have those options.

 

[Shaya]

You're right EL, that specific example doesn't justify dysfunction, the move not hitting characters low to the ground on landing, when it is meant to be her dynamic neutral spacing tool on the other hand though - it's a weird thing that is a tad counter intuitive.
Just the fix to that would also likely apply to the former example.
Marth spoils us all though.
I also suggested/implied that this stuff was intentional - Sakurai is a brilliant designer.

Falco's laser and jab on the other hand don't really function at all.
Zero Suit still has options for the things that are 'off', they just happen to be on average a lot poorer than her cohort (little reward + unsafe).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is she super oppressive? Well, no.

You meant to say she's not super oppressive in neutral, right? Because her advantaged state is so powerful that any term other than "super oppressive" would be an understatement.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah for sure. Her advantage is oppressive as ****. As all top tiers are really. If you aren't oppressive in advantage, then you aren't a good character. Whether its combos, edgeguarding, trap situations, etc. Advantage is where you can see the goal post.

 

[HoSmash4]

I personally feel ZSS doesnt have a win condition as consistent as the better top tiers. Digusting punish game yes. But she needs a landing aerial/grab or dsmash/paralyser read to start it up. But neutral dominates the game for a reason.

Having unfavourable matchups vs Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, possibly Mewtwo and Cloud is not a good combination.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah fam I disagree. I think only Diddy and MK have more consistent win conditions then her out of the entire cast. I mean, we see how often Nairo gets his condition and even lesser ZSS players. Being able to seal stocks is huge and a big reason why she will always be relevant imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Having unfavourable matchups vs Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, possibly Mewtwo and Cloud is not a good combination.

Apart from Diddy and Sheik who just have a favorable record against ZSS, what makes the other characters supposedly diasadvantaged matchups for ZSS? Cloud in particular seems very fishy, if anything I'd expect it to be in her favor.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Apart from Diddy and Sheik who just have a favorable record against ZSS, what makes the other characters supposedly diasadvantaged matchups for ZSS? Cloud in particular seems very fishy, if anything I'd expect it to be in her favor.

believe it's a similar reason people started to put MK into +1 against ZSS.
uair in neutral on reaction stuffs most of her options. uair out of disadvantage works because weird dumb z axis things. she has an actual disadvantage vs Limit Cloud because it's impossible to escape the longevity and speed of uair; even with flip jump.
gets ledge trapped super well by nair/bair and is pretty easy to combo to boot.
cloud's dtilt also works superbly against zair, the glue of her neutral, and she doesn't do so hot when approaching him.
i could see it being Cloud's favour but wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I personally feel ZSS doesnt have a win condition as consistent as the better top tiers. Digusting punish game yes. But she needs a landing aerial/grab or dsmash/paralyser read to start it up. But neutral dominates the game for a reason.

Having unfavourable matchups vs Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, possibly Mewtwo and Cloud is not a good combination.

There's also Pikachu.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

Pikachu is a ****ing myth

 

[Rizen]

People over exaggerate the power of flip jump; yes it's really good that a character essentially has two jump air dodges in their arsenal for escaping disadvantage compared to most characters' one but that's all it is, for every flip jump away, jump air dodge input correctly would've also worked. At lower levels of play the single inputness of down-b vs buffering jump and timing air dodge baffles people and hence they go OMG BROKEN.
Meanwhile it has the huge draw back of the auto footstool, which people who actually know how to play against zero suit will accept that while it's good and has to be respected, the counter play and resulting reward is significantly more than the base options.

I'm not saying she's broken or whatever but this is seriously downplaying ZSS' flip kick. It's a sideways recovery burst mobility option that footstools and has a spike the size of a Volkswagen.

(OMG what's wrong with her face there?!)
She can combo into the spike and these flip moves are huge boosts to recovery. It's intangible frames 3-12 and that helps immensely as a get out of jail free and recovery move.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Too many losing MUs to stay where he is.

Three notable losing match ups (you all know which ones they are), and consistent top 15 in results for around a year. Mhm, dropping like a rock.

Falcon's probably going to stay right around where he is. I don't see him rising, I don't seem him dropping far. He's too consistent.

I don't play Marth or Lucina so I cant comment myself, but does anyone think that Falcon does well in that MU? Because if it happens to be true that could be something in his favor.

I think it's even. Falcon can whiff punish everything with his crazy dash grab without even having to run beforehand (immediate dash grab out of shield covers a huge amount of distance), they both juggle each other well, Marth can whiff punish many things with his range or run a small distance and dancing blade. Neither of them have much that hinders the other's neutral or usage of their primary tools.

 

[Poisonous]

Starting at the top and going down: up to top 3, to top tier, down to somewhere in high tier, to high tier, down a little to mid tier, up, up, stays about the same but is joined there by Bowser at the top of mid, up slightly, down to mid-mid tier, all down slightly due to the power creep of above characters now they're closer to the following bunch, up slightly climbing to the top of low tier or low mid tier, down maybe to low tier.

Edit, based off the current tier list.

Wario's results were better than before though, I'm curious why he'd move down yet Link/Zard/Shulk/Samus would move up. I don't disagree with Wario moving down, but if that's the case I'm not sure why a lot of the characters you're advocating rise should do so.

 

[Illuminose]

~ Gheb ~

here's what I posted regarding those specific MUs 2 pages ago...

is a newer character to be talked about for bad matchups that zss has, but it really shouldn't be too surprising. the example of the matchup that probably sticks in the heads of some people is nairo vs salem from big house, which simply was not a good representation of the matchup. zss can destroy any character if they air dodge into a grab on the platform repeatedly - that doesn't really mean anything. in terms of results, we can look at the dominating win salem had over nairo in their last encounter and his overall positive record between their encounters (2-1). captain zack also beat marss at genesis as another example, and though he did lose to nairo at ugc i would simply argue that nairo is a better player that zack. the other relevant example of this matchup is in japan where 9b recently took 2 sets from choco in 2 separate tournaments (choco hasn't played any other top bayo, same with 9b for zss). the issue here is that bayo actually has a better punish game than bayo, which is difficult to deal with because the entire idea of zss is that she loses neutral but outpunishes her opponent. in this matchup, zss both loses neutral and has a worse punish game, and can't really edgeguard bayonetta. her approaches can literally be punished by death and she's vulnerable to witch time because her grab is so bad and she relies a lot on aerials in neutral. this matchup is at least -1 if not -2 as well, a sentiment i have seen floating around in general.

zero suit used to be one of those characters that did great against cloud. for the longest time, nairo just didn't lose to cloud. then, toward the latter half of 2016, a dramatic shift occurred. tweek started beating nairo and marss with cloud, forcing the nairo switch to bowser. leo started beating marss with cloud. komo beat nairo with cloud. and as the narrative of this matchup at top level play changed, people began to realize that theory of this matchup was being put into action, and now the common opinion is that zss loses this matchup. while zss can get early kills sometimes, cloud can get consistent early kills. cloud can even outspace zss aerials with his massive, safe aerials, aerials that she has trouble getting around and punishing. cloud wins neutral by a decent amount and can consistently secure stocks at either early or at least reasonable percents. this is another at least -1 matchup.

more details: zss loses neutral to bayo because she can't really play defensive or aggressive with much meaningful effectiveness. virtually every option zss can go for leaves her vulnerable to down tilt (shrinks hurtbox to punish aerials) or up b. bayo also has big aerial hitboxes (nair/bair) that can contest aerial space. also because her grab sucks and she mostly relies on attacks to play the game, zss is one of those most vulnerable good characters to witch time. the only viable way for zss to play neutral as long as bayo is not giving things away is to bait a lot with empty movement, using paralyzer/zair and somehow trying to get punishes in, taking whatever she can get. this can work, but playing neutral like this is still not entirely safe, and bayo has a more consistent/better punish game so even if you are outplaying her in neutral through very good bait/punish you still have to work harder than her to win. also bayo is one of like 3 characters that ignore disadvantage state better than zss whereas bayo can actually catch zss out of the air, even with zss down b in mind, due to side b and up b. there's no edgeguarding happening on bayo from zss either. in summary, zss doesn't have a particularly strong advantage state in this matchup, is arguably outpunished, and has difficulty in neutral while her disadvantage isn't quite as good as usual. at an even level of player skill, this matchup is hard.

cloud has a more distinct neutral game advantage than bayo because the sword controls space so effectively in this matchup. cloud has an elite neutral, including safety and moves with great range. he can antiair an aggressive zss very easily and effectively, including with ko options at the right percent. and doesn't have issues handling "noncommittal zss" whatsoever. cloud is also good at securing stocks and makes it difficult for zss to take stocks safely because every back air is a potential lcs or up b. there's also ledge trapping done by cloud. the saving grace in this mu is zss advantage actually being very good (though cloud's is too because limit cloud still juggled zss just fine), setting up edgeguarding positions and securing her potential early stocks. she can also edgeguard cloud decently. cloud vs zss is volatile because zss can definitely mess up cloud if she gets her hands on him, but cloud has the more consistent tools to beat zss for sure.

and of course there's the pikachu and fox matchups that are also slight losses for zss, as well as the possibility of mewtwo stated by ho and another possible slight loss to olimar.

Emblem Lord you have to look at matchups when you talk about ZSS, abstract tools don't tell you everything about a character's viability. the reason that these characters do so well against her is that they counteract her advantage state well (characters with good disadvantage state) and beat her options to start up pressure.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Three notable losing match ups (you all know which ones they are), and consistent top 15 in results for around a year. Mhm, dropping like a rock.

https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/823729529420206080

18 losing MUs (17 if you count Marcina as one), and losing to every top tier except Rosalina & Luma (even). That's not the MU chart of a high tier character. It is possible that Fatality is overtly pessimistic though.

 

[blackghost]

Illuminose what makes zss so vulnerable to Witch time?

 

[|RK|]

I also agree that ZSS is underrated.
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that not a whole lot of people use her.

But anyway, Nairo has popularized a High-risk, high-reward style; it means you sometimes bet it all for a combo (or a grab) to connect and get the gold with an explosive conversion. It sometimes doesn't work. It baffles me how a character with so many low-cooldown moves and plethora of movement and mixup options is widely always played like that.
But at least I noticed that, while in Japan, Nairo did play a more patient ZSS game (but still as swift as ever, just incurring into less risks); he might improve his results again if he keeps that up.

Nairo is aggressive, but he's also incredibly smart as a player. Honestly, you'll see there's a huge difference between how he plays now and how some of the people he's inspired play. He's not unwilling to slow it down if it gets him what he wants. But he's one of the best in the world for a reason.

 

[Rizen]

Wario's results were better than before though, I'm curious why he'd move down yet Link/Zard/Shulk/Samus would move up. I don't disagree with Wario moving down, but if that's the case I'm not sure why a lot of the characters you're advocating rise should do so.

If you look at the results thread under current scores, updated Feb 21:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
"

Cloud: 253
Diddy Kong: 226.5
Bayonetta: 218
Sheik: 194
Fox: 150
Mario: 124
Sonic: 123
Mewtwo: 100.5
Zero Suit Samus: 93
Marth: 90
Rosalina & Luma: 89.5
Ryu: 78.5
Meta Knight: 70.5
Peach: 67.5
Captain Falcon: 56.5
Donkey Kong: 51
Luigi: 49
Ness: 47
Duck Hunt: 44
Villager: 44
Corrin: 38.5
Toon Link: 38.5
Pikachu: 37.5
Lucario: 33.5
R.O.B.: 33
Bowser: 32.5
Greninja: 31.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 30
Olimar: 23
Mega Man: 23
Robin: 23
Lucina: 19
Shulk: 19
Pit: 17.5
Link: 17
Lucas: 16
Samus: 14
Yoshi: 13.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 12.5
Wario: 12
Little Mac: 11.5
Ike: 11.5
Roy: 10
Falco: 10
Pac-Man: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Charizard: 5
Kirby: 2
King Dedede: 1
"
's really been dropping off lately. Who plays Wario besides Gluttony? Does Reflex still play? Although I do think Wario's mid tier I'm also trying to take results and other people's advice on this thread into consideration. I think if Wario shows more results it would be more justified to keep him higher.

For and , we have been seeing a rise in their results from players like T, Cat, Scizor, and several other players making top 16 for Link. Shulk has too but I can't remember the players' names; can someone with a scissor name help me out . I can see them at the bottom of mid-tier rather than low tier. I think will rise to the top of low tier and have shown to be better than characters like . Keep in mind I based my post off changes from the previous tier list which was very outdated with Zard in the bottom 5.


My personal opinion is Wario should be slightly higher than Link and Shulk in mid-tier. I didn't mean Wario dropping below them. IMO mid tier should be expanded and low/bottom tiers could be smaller based on the character power balance. Link fits better with Ike than with Falco for example. :/

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon/status/823729529420206080

18 losing MUs (17 if you count Marcina as one), and losing to every top tier except Rosalina & Luma (even). That's not the MU chart of a high tier character. It is possible that Fatality is overtly pessimistic though.

There's a good deal that I disagree with about his chart, such as the placements of Sheik and Bayo and especially Kirby and G&W to name a few, but I think that a lot of what Fatality bases his charts on is his own experience, which is the result of his playstyle. Fatality is almost always approaching (and his approaches are rather linear too, he ignores the dash attack/dashgrab 50/50 most of the time in favor of just dash grab. Bair is criminally underused by him as well.), which is why he has troubles with Kirby, a character who has pretty much nothing to approach with so he relies on you approaching him so he can grab you and get a massive lead that forces you to approach more.

If Fatality would do more than just run straight at his opponents I think he'd have a much easier time with a lot of the match ups he listed.

I think that Sonic, Fox, ZSS, Marth/Lucina, Mewtwo, Villager, Toon Link, Kirby, and G&W are all even at best. Diddy Kong, Mario, Cloud, and Ryu can stay where they're at, Sheik, Bayonetta, and Pikachu (in that order from worst to less worse) need to move up. I'm not going to go into some of the characters who he listed as even *cough*Jr.*cough* that really aren't even match ups.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There's a good deal that I disagree with about his chart, such as the placements of Sheik and Bayo and especially Kirby and G&W to name a few, but I think that a lot of what Fatality bases his charts on is his own experience, which is the result of his playstyle. Fatality is almost always approaching (and his approaches are rather linear too, he ignores the dash attack/dashgrab 50/50 most of the time in favor of just dash grab. Bair is criminally underused by him as well.), which is why he has troubles with Kirby, a character who has pretty much nothing to approach with so he relies on you approaching him so he can grab you and get a massive lead that forces you to approach more.

If Fatality would do more than just run straight at his opponents I think he'd have a much easier time with a lot of the match ups he listed.

I think that Sonic, Fox, ZSS, Marth/Lucina, Mewtwo, Villager, Toon Link, Kirby, and G&W are all even at best. Diddy Kong, Mario, Cloud, and Ryu can stay where they're at, Sheik, Bayonetta, and Pikachu (in that order from worst to less worse) need to move up. I'm not going to go into some of the characters who he listed as even *cough*Jr.*cough* that really aren't even match ups.[/QUOTED}






Wait did you say Sheik, Bayo and Pikacu need to move up to even, or up to -1..because they are by many considered his worst Matchups

 

[MistressRemilia]

If you look at the results thread under current scores, updated Feb 21:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
"

Cloud: 253
Diddy Kong: 226.5
Bayonetta: 218
Sheik: 194
Fox: 150
Mario: 124
Sonic: 123
Mewtwo: 100.5
Zero Suit Samus: 93
Marth: 90
Rosalina & Luma: 89.5
Ryu: 78.5
Meta Knight: 70.5
Peach: 67.5
Captain Falcon: 56.5
Donkey Kong: 51
Luigi: 49
Ness: 47
Duck Hunt: 44
Villager: 44
Corrin: 38.5
Toon Link: 38.5
Pikachu: 37.5
Lucario: 33.5
R.O.B.: 33
Bowser: 32.5
Greninja: 31.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 30
Olimar: 23
Mega Man: 23
Robin: 23
Lucina: 19
Shulk: 19
Pit: 17.5
Link: 17
Lucas: 16
Samus: 14
Yoshi: 13.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 12.5
Wario: 12
Little Mac: 11.5
Ike: 11.5
Roy: 10
Falco: 10
Pac-Man: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Charizard: 5
Kirby: 2
King Dedede: 1
"
's really been dropping off lately. Who plays Wario besides Gluttony? Does Reflex still play? Although I do think Wario's mid tier I'm also trying to take results and other people's advice on this thread into consideration. I think if Wario shows more results it would be more justified to keep him higher.

For and , we have been seeing a rise in their results from players like T, Cat, Scizor, and several other players making top 16 for Link. Shulk has too but I can't remember the players' names; can someone with a scissor name help me out . I can see them at the bottom of mid-tier rather than low tier. I think will rise to the top of low tier and have shown to be better than characters like . Keep in mind I based my post off changes from the previous tier list which was very outdated with Zard in the bottom 5.


My personal opinion is Wario should be slightly higher than Link and Shulk in mid-tier. I didn't mean Wario dropping below them. IMO mid tier should be expanded and low/bottom tiers could be smaller based on the character power balance. Link fits better with Ike than with Falco for example. :/

Then make a 3rd row of Mid Tier, i'm sure we can fit it and it would be more accurate.
Everyone knows this game has a huge cast of Mid Tiers anyway, they're more or less capable of the same things, but as you go down in the mid tier, they become less & less consistent with it. In perspective, it could give something like:
Ike -> Game&Watch -> Wario -> Duck Hunt -> Palutena -> Shulk -> Pac-Man -> Link

Just my thoughts, i've always thought the amount of characters that would fit my criteria for Mid tier ( Capable of strong accomplishments at a Regional Level, with more or less consistency, as well as an occasional Top 32 at a Major spot from the best players of the following character out there ) was big enough to justify 3 separate tiers, depending on results & theory.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja still beats Shulk imo, even after iStud lost to M.

I don't think Gren should rise or drop. I think Gren is better than Falcon or Ness, but the inevitable climbing of characters like Olimar and Marth might shake things up a bit.

 

[Routa]

One thing I see happening a lot is people air dodging a lot against Falcon and Mac and I keep asking myself... "Why?". Don't people know that ADing against Mac and Faptain is a big no-no?

 

[InfinitySoul]

One thing I see happening a lot is people air dodging a lot against Falcon and Mac and I keep asking myself... "Why?". Don't people know that ADing against Mac and Faptain is a big no-no?

I hear that a lot, but why ?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Wait did you say Sheik, Bayo and Pikacu need to move up to even, or up to -1..because they are by many considered his worst Matchups

-1 (or -1.5 for Sheik and Bayo, but that'd have to define what -1.5 means and that's just not a topic worth going into). They are his worst match ups, though in the cases of Bayo and Sheik it does depend on how well they know how to abuse certain moves on Falcon. For example, if you don't know how to use fair with Sheik on Falcon so it scoops him up so you can hit him again, he's going to win neutral more often than he should, and if you combine this with having trouble killing or edge guarding then suddenly the match up isn't absolute trash anymore.

 

[soniczx123]

Greninja still beats Shulk imo, even after iStud lost to M.

I don't think Gren should rise or drop. I think Gren is better than Falcon or Ness, but the inevitable climbing of characters like Olimar and Marth might shake things up a bit.

Someone tried to argue that Greninja goes even or loses after that set??

But yea, Greninja's small stature is a bane for Shulk to land most of his aerials, in particular Bair. He also juggles and combos Shulk extremely well. M always tells me it's one of Shulk more harder MUs with the ninjas low stance being a big factor.

 

[ARISTOS]

I hear that a lot, but why ?

You take the up-air, you live to fight another day.

You AD, and you die to air rest/stomp

 

[Deleted member]

If you look at the results thread under current scores, updated Feb 21:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
"

Cloud: 253
Diddy Kong: 226.5
Bayonetta: 218
Sheik: 194
Fox: 150
Mario: 124
Sonic: 123
Mewtwo: 100.5
Zero Suit Samus: 93
Marth: 90
Rosalina & Luma: 89.5
Ryu: 78.5
Meta Knight: 70.5
Peach: 67.5
Captain Falcon: 56.5
Donkey Kong: 51
Luigi: 49
Ness: 47
Duck Hunt: 44
Villager: 44
Corrin: 38.5
Toon Link: 38.5
Pikachu: 37.5
Lucario: 33.5
R.O.B.: 33
Bowser: 32.5
Greninja: 31.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 30
Olimar: 23
Mega Man: 23
Robin: 23
Lucina: 19
Shulk: 19
Pit: 17.5
Link: 17
Lucas: 16
Samus: 14
Yoshi: 13.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 12.5
Wario: 12
Little Mac: 11.5
Ike: 11.5
Roy: 10
Falco: 10
Pac-Man: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Charizard: 5
Kirby: 2
King Dedede: 1
"
's really been dropping off lately. Who plays Wario besides Gluttony? Does Reflex still play? Although I do think Wario's mid tier I'm also trying to take results and other people's advice on this thread into consideration. I think if Wario shows more results it would be more justified to keep him higher.

For and , we have been seeing a rise in their results from players like T, Cat, Scizor, and several other players making top 16 for Link. Shulk has too but I can't remember the players' names; can someone with a scissor name help me out . I can see them at the bottom of mid-tier rather than low tier. I think will rise to the top of low tier and have shown to be better than characters like . Keep in mind I based my post off changes from the previous tier list which was very outdated with Zard in the bottom 5.


My personal opinion is Wario should be slightly higher than Link and Shulk in mid-tier. I didn't mean Wario dropping below them. IMO mid tier should be expanded and low/bottom tiers could be smaller based on the character power balance. Link fits better with Ike than with Falco for example. :/

Nicko and Kome have been doing rather well this year with Shulk, which likely attributes to his rise + M's placing at BEAST.

For the record, I definitely think he's better than characters like Palutena, G&W, Ike and Wario. Take that as you will.

Greninja still beats Shulk imo, even after iStud lost to M.

I don't think Gren should rise or drop. I think Gren is better than Falcon or Ness, but the inevitable climbing of characters like Olimar and Marth might shake things up a bit.

Was anybody arguing otherwise?

Personally I think it's slight disadvantage for Shulk as well.

 

[Luigi player]

The only bad thing I would say about Diddy's Fair is that it's unsafe to land with.

Actually, the move is kinda laggy surprisingly.

Just a few days ago someone from my scene had troubles with Diddys fair and I asked him if he wanted to try some stuff out.
I was kinda surprised that Diddy couldn't even do anything after an instant shorthop fair besides landing with it. It just has a really amazing autocancel window.
Of course this autocancelwindow makes the move work better, but there are things you can do against this move.

It's great to catch someone with it since the hitbox stays out for a bit, it has good range, and of course, the great autocancel window.
If you compare the move to Brawl or prepatch you'd actually notice just how weak of a move it is (I don't like it too much anymore). Though in Brawl it didn't have such a big autocancel window.

As for the moves limitations:
Since you can only land after a shorthop fair (or of course fall down further if you're on edges or something) players will mostly just do instant sh fair, or landing fair to mix it up.

Landing fair is extremely punishable, but you need to predict the Diddy to go for it. Mewtwo can, for example stop shielding and hit Diddy with a Disable (downB) when Diddy has his fair landinglag in front of it.
I see Zero do this A LOT to mix up his fair timing so you'll never know when to release shield. You need to try being ready for it so you'll be able to punish it hard.

Since landing fair is so punishable, Diddys should mostly be going for instant fair out of a short hop and not the landing one. This move can be hard to punish and Ryu, for example, can't punish the move at all out of shield if it is spaced really well. Closest thing was a sideB, but a fastfalled fair will autocancel in time and Diddy will be able to powershield Ryus sideB attempt since Ryu has to move closer to Diddy first for it to be able to hit.

So, this fair can be a really annoying wall, even if you manage to shield it you might not be able to punish it. And if you don't you'll be hit away and out of Diddys space, or at low % you'll still be there and he might try to hit you again with it. It can seem a little braindead and a hard wall to overcome, but there's a trick for that... - You can just duck under it! This way you won't be hit away from Diddy, he won't be able to hit you at all with it (there are 4 exceptions, shoutouts to Ninjalink who actually made a list and had a "Diddys flaws" livestream a few days ago; the exceptions are: Bowser, Ganondorf, Samus and Ryu (Ryu can avoid sh fair by dtilting, though)).
Characters with crawls benefit even more from that. Since Diddy has to land after the fair you have enough time to punish him.
[edit: to add onto this: some characters are small enough that they won't get hit by Diddys rising fair/bair at all! For example Pikachu, Olimar, MK or Greninja; those characters don't really have to worry about that and this helps a lot (and is annoying for the Diddy player)]

This takes away from the move and I myself have actually stopped using it "braindeadly" some time ago and switched to short hop bair, since Diddy is able to do two in one shorthop / or can try to retreat after the first one, which makes any approach attemps with them much safer.

It shouldn't be as strong as it is seen right now imo.

 

[Illuminose]

Illuminose what makes zss so vulnerable to Witch time?

any character that has a bad grab is vulnerable to witch time for the most part, especially if they rely on aerials. zss is a very aerial-based character, utilitizing short hop nairs, back airs, and up airs heavily within her neutral. although she has certain options to play at a more advantageous range (zair and neutral b), it can be hard to find a true opening with those moves if the game opponent is prepared for them and remains patient, and they're also just not foolproof options. but the point is that zss often has to attack you to get anything done and doesn't really have a quick aerial (rising short hop aerial), so you can generally react to jumps and then if she throws an aerial it can potentially be witch timed. you can bait and punish by doing empty hops and empty movement in general, but you will eventually have to attack if you want to get something started on bayo so zss is ultimately fairly vulnerable to witch time compared to other top characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I only have a few things I think for sure should happen the next tier list:

- Only character that should move up above Ike is Lucina. Should should shoot up to very close to Marth.

- Marth, Bayonetta, Bowser should rise significantly.

- F/G tier should reshuffle but nobody should be leaving that tier in either direction

Buuuut knowing how these things work people will have gone "z0ng Link/Shulk/Duck Hunt got results in the last month? Up to mid tier with them!" Despite the fact they're just doing the same kind of jumps Palutena did... who promptly fell back down to earth once people figured her out. Which will happen again for all three of those characters.

 

[Illuminose]

I only have a few things I think for sure should happen the next tier list:

- Only character that should move up above Ike is Lucina. Should should shoot up to very close to Marth.

- Marth, Bayonetta, Bowser should rise significantly.

- F/G tier should reshuffle but nobody should be leaving that tier in either direction

Buuuut knowing how these things work people will have gone "z0ng Link/Shulk/Duck Hunt got results in the last month? Up to mid tier with them!" Despite the fact they're just doing the same kind of jumps Palutena did... who promptly fell back down to earth once people figured her out. Which will happen again for all three of those characters.

the japanese duck hunts have been getting results in japan since release. this is not a random surge in results of the past month, this is just the players who are actually good with the character coming overseas finally.

 

[Floor]

Guess I'll restate it
Thoughts on 3rd tier list

moving way up. Lucina is top 10 imo but I expect her to be at top 15 or so. Bowser maybe around top 20, Marth top 10, Zard i think will move on up to mid tier or high low; he's not bottom 5 or anywhere near that. Bayo top 3; probably #1.

Moving down a bit. It's not that they are bad; they are still really good but their results have been slipping. Kameme hasn't done well since I think it was EVO when he got to grands. Sonic hasn't been in the spotlight for a long time since Komo has been using Cloud mostly in top 16. Larry Lurr has also been slipping a bit and plays a lot of DK these days anyway.

Can't wait to see ESAM's reaction when Pika is barely in top 20

 

[L9999]

Guess I'll restate it
Thoughts on 3rd tier list

moving way up. Lucina is top 10 imo but I expect her to be at top 15 or so. Bowser maybe around top 20, Marth top 10, Zard i think will move on up to mid tier or high low; he's bottom 5 or anywhere near that. Bayo top 3; probably #1.

Moving down a bit. It's not that they are bad; they are still really good but their results have been slipping. Kameme hasn't done well since I think it was EVO when he got to grands. Sonic hasn't been in the spotlight for a long time since Komo has been using Cloud mostly in top 16. Larry Lurr has also been slipping a bit and plays a lot of DK these days anyway.

Can't wait to see ESAM's reaction when Pika is barely in top 20

By this point we shouldn't be surprised. Besides the optimization of Up Throw Thunder there hasn't been much improvement on Pikachu, no one plays this character to improve anything. As far as I am concerned all the non-ESAM players disappeared, no new blood is coming up, and we all know ESAM's problems. A lot of Pikachu's so called good MUs have been debunked in tournament again and again (Rosa, Bayo, ZSS, MK IIRC, etc).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

the japanese duck hunts have been getting results in japan since release. this is not a random surge in results of the past month, this is just the players who are actually good with the character coming overseas finally.

And I'm one of those guys who won't use Japanese results the same way as NA/EU results because they are clearly different metagames. If its not NA/EU its certainly worth watching/studying still... but I don't count them in for results/trends. Nor do I believe they should be counted in.

Do guys over in Japan still have D3 in mid tier? I remember that being a thing while we were already putting D3 in bottom 5.

 

[blackghost]

any character that has a bad grab is vulnerable to witch time for the most part, especially if they rely on aerials. zss is a very aerial-based character, utilitizing short hop nairs, back airs, and up airs heavily within her neutral. although she has certain options to play at a more advantageous range (zair and neutral b), it can be hard to find a true opening with those moves if the game opponent is prepared for them and remains patient, and they're also just not foolproof options. but the point is that zss often has to attack you to get anything done and doesn't really have a quick aerial (rising short hop aerial), so you can generally react to jumps and then if she throws an aerial it can potentially be witch timed. you can bait and punish by doing empty hops and empty movement in general, but you will eventually have to attack if you want to get something started on bayo so zss is ultimately fairly vulnerable to witch time compared to other top characters.

I understand that but characters with bad grabs aren't the most susceptible to Witch time. Characters whose neutral is centralized to long pokes (marth), characters that utilize one move a lot (cloud dair) and characters with long lasting hit boxes (bayonetta) are most vulnerable to Witch time. Zss has good frame data and mobility. She starts combos off grabs and dtilts and up airs. Having a te tether grab is fine because if the bayonetta reads a normal attack and the zss pivot grabs or does a normal grab zss is still at disadvantage yes but she's still better off than getting witch timed as the witch time will stale on whiff. Zss zair is vulnerable to Witch time as its a hit.
As for her aerials I play bayonetta and when a zss is getting witch timed from an air attack it's rare as bayonetta doesn't want to risk it and a smart zss player knows when it's OK to risk witch time and as a light character bayonetta doesn't want any part of that zss bair. Against bayo zss should want to be on the ground even if that isn't traditionally what she does she shouldn't be fighting air battles with a character that flies.
Zss can go very long stretches without hitting a vulnerable button to getting witch timed like Mario, Luigi, and mew two, and shield can. Characters I list among other cant. The most vulnerable moves zss has are Nair and zair outside of that it takes a hard read for a bayonetta to Witch time zss or any of the other characters I mentioned

 

[soniczx123]

And I'm one of those guys who won't use Japanese results the same way as NA/EU results because they are clearly different metagames. If its not NA/EU its certainly worth watching/studying still... but I don't count them in for results/trends. Nor do I believe they should be counted in.

Do guys over in Japan still have D3 in mid tier? I remember that being a thing while we were already putting D3 in bottom 5.

I can't even begin to attempt to comprehend this logic right here...

They are playing the exact same game with the exact same stats as the rest of the world. There's no reason to not include them