Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Make either Witch Twist or Witch Time not start on f4. Hell, change the SDI modifier on WT again if you want. I don't care, do both if you need to.
But those having death followups with Bayo herself having a f4 jumpsquat makes her shield far, far better than every other character in this game.

 

[|RK|]

I have to be honest - I haven't seen any real issues with Bayonetta since she was nerfed. She's not only not winning anything, but she doesn't even top 8 that often. You want to know her weakness? If you cannot ladder (and SDI makes this much more likely) and you do not get the Witch Time, she's pretty garbage at killing.

Seriously, watch Captain Zack's matches from this past Genesis, or Salem vs ESAM at UGC. She legit struggles, and she's basically fishing for her "kill throw" to finally finish the opponent, or looking for an obvious bair.

Now obviously, she also has an amazing edgeguarding tool in her nair, but top level sets indicate this is mostly a problem for characters with bad recovery distance or poor recovery mixups.

On top of that, her neutral tools are average, and this actually gets worse for her at high percents (since her witch twist stops meaning anything as a conversion). Characters with decent conversions off of grab are generally going to do fine against her in neutral.

Of course, the character has strengths - her disadvantage tools are the best in the game, and her tools in advantage are top notch as well (unless you have ESAM-level SDI, then it's aight). But those strengths just make her top tier, no more, no less. Is she annoying to fight sometimes? Sure. Doesn't mean she needs more nerfs, IMO.

 

[Rizen]

I think 3rd party DLC characters ie Bayo and slightly less-so Cloud were designed to be over-tuned. When you look at design choices they have vs balancing characteristics most of the cast have they're obviously better. I don't see how that could have been an accident, like some other top tier exploits in the past might have been.

PS
I'm not trying to say they need nerfs or not, just pointing out design choices.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So you're saying their overpowered because they're DLC and Nintendo wants us to buy the characters? Isn't that a shameless cash grab?

 

[TDK]

At the end of the day, Nintendo needs to make money to stay in the business. That's just the reality of it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

True and what better to do that then to make characters that people want to buy. I took a marketing course I understand why it's done.

 

[blackghost]

I have to be honest - I haven't seen any real issues with Bayonetta since she was nerfed. She's not only not winning anything, but she doesn't even top 8 that often. You want to know her weakness? If you cannot ladder (and SDI makes this much more likely) and you do not get the Witch Time, she's pretty garbage at killing.

Seriously, watch Captain Zack's matches from this past Genesis, or Salem vs ESAM at UGC. She legit struggles, and she's basically fishing for her "kill throw" to finally finish the opponent, or looking for an obvious bair.

Now obviously, she also has an amazing edgeguarding tool in her nair, but top level sets indicate this is mostly a problem for characters with bad recovery distance or poor recovery mixups.

On top of that, her neutral tools are average, and this actually gets worse for her at high percents (since her witch twist stops meaning anything as a conversion). Characters with decent conversions off of grab are generally going to do fine against her in neutral.

Of course, the character has strengths - her disadvantage tools are the best in the game, and her tools in advantage are top notch as well (unless you have ESAM-level SDI, then it's aight). But those strengths just make her top tier, no more, no less. Is she annoying to fight sometimes? Sure. Doesn't mean she needs more nerfs, IMO.

bayonetta is also combo food. characters with grab conversions and true combos can force her to to bat within resulting in more free damage or leading to her dying early.

results dont lie go back and watch the match of komo vs zack again there are a number of times komo just lets bayo land after using specials in the air. and komo gave her extra chances to witch time him.
many players still dont punish her landings and there seems to be this misunderstanding about bayo and landings as well as witch time.
witch time on wiff is punishable.
bayonetta when landing from batwithin will always have extra landing frames
she cannot witch time during a landing recovery animation.
lastly sit. in. shield. if you are scared dont panic out a button and dont approach with a lasting hitbox like a dash attack or a mewtwo nair. the players that fight her well (zero, elegant, ironically captain zach) do this very well.
bayonetta when at high percent agianst an opponent also at high percent struggles to kill. bayo can kill you pre 90 but if you live to post 120 she will struggle to finish you. its really annoying to hear commentators list of f throw as "strong" people live that throw longer than marth upthrow. zack struggled when he went agaonst zero because zeros neutral game sufficated him.

 

[Rizen]

bayonetta is also combo food. characters with grab conversions and true combos can force her to to bat within resulting in more free damage or leading to her dying early.

results dont lie go back and watch the match of komo vs zack again there are a number of times komo just lets bayo land after using specials in the air. and komo gave her extra chances to witch time him.
many players still dont punish her landings and there seems to be this misunderstanding about bayo and landings as well as witch time.
witch time on wiff is punishable.
bayonetta when landing from batwithin will always have extra landing frames
she cannot witch time during a landing recovery animation.
lastly sit. in. shield. if you are scared dont panic out a button and dont approach with a lasting hitbox like a dash attack or a mewtwo nair. the players that fight her well (zero, elegant, ironically captain zach) do this very well.
bayonetta when at high percent agianst an opponent also at high percent struggles to kill. bayo can kill you pre 90 but if you live to post 120 she will struggle to finish you. its really annoying to hear commentators list of f throw as "strong" people live that throw longer than marth upthrow. zack struggled when he went agaonst zero because zeros neutral game sufficated him.

Any character with true combos can true combo everyone. That's why they're called 'true' combos. Bayo still has incredibly safe conversions and an almost nonexistent disadvantage state.

Yeah punishing landings is important but her air burst movement helps her move away first. Every airdodge has extra landing lag.
Every counter is punishable on wiff.

Is sitting in shield ever a viable option? Opponents will notice and grab you; then you're in the air or offstage vs Bayo. Bayo gets 10% off Fthrow, which is nothing to sneeze at. Her conversions are safe on shield for the most part so it's not like she's in a bad place if you shield.

Bayo can still Bair/Fthrow kill after 120%, witch time kill, even Dair has surprising kill power.

 

[The-Technique]

yeah. if bayonetta drops a combo and cant reach a ledge, there's literally nothing she can do if you hold shield in front of her. more players should capitalize on that

 

[Mr. Johan]

Alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, immediately Dairs, squashes her hurtbox, takes the 26 frames of landing lag, and goes on her merry way.

Alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, retains one more Side B, and bails out with DABK away from you.

Alternatively alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, Nairs down to the ground, and uses the newly discovered landing cancel special trick that negates all landing lag, thereby making her purported weakness a joke, and Heel Slides away.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think 3rd party DLC characters ie Bayo and slightly less-so Cloud were designed to be over-tuned. When you look at design choices they have vs balancing characteristics most of the cast have they're obviously better. I don't see how that could have been an accident, like some other top tier exploits in the past might have been.

PS
I'm not trying to say they need nerfs or not, just pointing out design choices.

So you're saying their overpowered because they're DLC and Nintendo wants us to buy the characters? Isn't that a shameless cash grab?

At the end of the day, Nintendo needs to make money to stay in the business. That's just the reality of it.

We know Cloud was made to be easy to play. That was said in interviews. They knew Cloud was a system seller so they wanted to make him accessible for a lot of people. Guess that translated into making him good and why pocket Clouds are common.

Bayonetta is probably the way she is, just because its Bayonetta. You can't take Bayonetta's combo ability away from her as its part of her character.

That said, I strongly doubt DLC was a factor in balancing considering literally every other DLC character only ranges from pretty good to meh. Including another huge big name third party newcomer that sold copies.

I think implying that certain character were made to be overpowered to sell is a silly thought to put it nicely.

Especially since the people who would buy the character because they were overpowered are niche. I can guarantee you that most people bought Bayonetta and Cloud because they either A) wanted all the characters or B) it's freaking Bayonetta and Cloud in Smash Bros!
There is no conspiracy. Some characters just end up being good. I'm getting flashbacks about claims that was so good because of Sakurai bias.

Just learn the matchups guys. It's better than inventing reasons why certain characters are better than others because those kinds of thoughts just create ire against certain characters and playerbases. As a community, we cannot afford that.

True and what better to do that then to make characters that people want to buy. I took a marketing course I understand why it's done.

One marketing course?

Lol, you tripping.

 

[TDK]

Alternatively alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, Nairs down to the ground, and uses the newly discovered landing cancel special trick that negates all landing lag, thereby making her purported weakness a joke, and Heel Slides away.

This lasts for (IIRC) just one frame, 2-3 at most. So you're blowing this way out of proportion, it's not a be-all-end-all.

EDIT: Quick Research confirms you have to be essentially frame-perfect. So it's not much of an issue.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I am curious how people think Yoshi's meta will evolve.

He had such a strong start and now you practically never see him.

What happened?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, immediately Dairs, squashes her hurtbox, takes the 26 frames of landing lag, and goes on her merry way.

Pretty sure that's actually 33 frames of lag, but it's still quit a lot.
If your character falls fast enough, she'll get punished since she's already at lag animation.

Alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, retains one more Side B, and bails out with DABK away from you.

That is IF she was able to save the second ABK.
If she really wants to get you to the top more likely than not will require to use both kicks.
If she doesn't she isn't going for the most damaging conversions, meaning you should be fine.

Alternatively alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, Nairs down to the ground, and uses the newly discovered landing cancel special trick that negates all landing lag, thereby making her purported weakness a joke, and Heel Slides away.

Do you even remember how the landing lag cancel trick works?

 

[Rizen]

We know Cloud was made to be easy to play. That was said in interviews. They knew Cloud was a system seller so they wanted to make him accessible for a lot of people. Guess that translated into making him good and why pocket Clouds are common.

Bayonetta is probably the way she is, just because its Bayonetta. You can't take Bayonetta's combo ability away from her as its part of her character.

That said, I strongly doubt DLC was a factor in balancing considering literally every other DLC character only ranges from pretty good to meh. Including another huge big name third party newcomer that sold copies.

I think implying that certain character were made to be overpowered to sell is a silly thought to put it nicely.

Especially since the people who would buy the character because they were overpowered are niche. I can guarantee you that most people bought Bayonetta and Cloud because they either A) wanted all the characters or B) it's freaking Bayonetta and Cloud in Smash Bros!
There is no conspiracy. Some characters just end up being good. I'm getting flashbacks about claims that was so good because of Sakurai bias.

Just learn the matchups guys. It's better than inventing reasons why certain characters are better than others because those kinds of thoughts just create ire against certain characters and playerbases. As a community, we cannot afford that.


One marketing course?

Lol, you tripping.

I specifically said Bayo and Cloud (Ryu has some pretty good stuff going for him too even if he isn't top tier). Will you please look at their stats? Take Cloud, frame 4 jab, projectile, huge sword, excellent air speed and all around mobility, a chargeable KO punch-like Limit that also makes him harder to kill and further improves his air speed past Yoshi's, frame 5 Nair with a huge radius, Auto cancel Dair. Yes his non-limit upB has bad distance but his recovery's not really that bad all things considered. All the checks and balances of sword archetypes are thrown out the window.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I specifically said Bayo and Cloud (Ryu has some pretty good stuff going for him too even if he isn't top tier). Will you please look at their stats? Take Cloud, frame 4 jab, projectile, huge sword, excellent air speed and all around mobility, a chargeable KO punch-like Limit that also makes him harder to kill and further improves his air speed past Yoshi's, frame 5 Nair with a huge radius, Auto cancel Dair. Yes his non-limit upB has bad distance but his recovery's not really that bad all things considered. All the checks and balances of sword archetypes are thrown out the window.

I told you why those two were designed the way there were.

I understand their stats. I look at that stuff too.

But it isn't some ploy to get people to buy the characters.

 

[Rizen]

I'm just saying that they were designed to be a notch above most characters. I'm not trying to say Bayo/Cloud players are riding them to the top or anything like that. Salem, for example is incredibly talented and all top players got there because skill, not character choice. :/
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo tried cash grabs considering how many ports of LoZ games they're selling.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm just saying that they were designed to be a notch above most characters. I'm not trying to say Bayo/Cloud players are riding them to the top or anything like that. Salem, for example is incredibly talented and all top players got there because skill, not character choice. :/
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo tried cash grabs considering how many ports of LoZ games they're selling.

I'm not saying that you're saying people ride on them. I never once said that.

I'm saying they weren't intentionally designed to be polarizing.

 

[The-Technique]

Take Cloud, frame 4 jab, projectile, huge sword, excellent air speed and all around mobility, a chargeable KO punch-like Limit that also makes him harder to kill and further improves his air speed past Yoshi's, frame 5 Nair with a huge radius, Auto cancel Dair. Yes his non-limit upB has bad distance but his recovery's not really that bad all things considered

Ike also has a frame 4 jab except its better in every way due to lower FAF allowing grounded mixups off of jab 1 such as d-tilt and u-tilt, not sure why you mention it when cloud's jab is one of his weaker normals (frankly his grounded moveset is mediocre as a whole)

his projectile without limit is ass, its more of a recovery and landing mixup than anything

most of the good swordies have long range with big hitboxes on their attacks already (marth, ike, corrin, robin) so... next

when cloud has a move that kills at 30% and bypasses shield, then we can throw around words like "ko punch-like"

limit cloud allows him to live slightly longer but also allows various followups to connect at higher percents, leading to KO anyway. the actual scary thing about limit cloud is his increased air mobility allowing him to attack shields more safely

n-air is a great move but i dont resent him for it, it isnt free to throw around either since its hitbox starts behind cloud, meaning it cannot get him out of juggles and combos

auto cancel d-air is also great but i dont resent him for it either since you can punish a badly timed or mis-spaced auto cancel d-air attempt with many characters

Most of all, out of all these mostly reasonable attributes you completely forgot about his up air. If you wanted to make a point about Cloud being overpowered you should have started with that, at least.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

One marketing course?

Lol, you tripping.

Not one marketing course what I meant is one marketing degree. Associates but still. Anyways I guess it's not simply making characters for people to buy though they did poll multiple regions for a few dlc characters. It's to enhance the game experience. And please don't make fun of my college courses, super expensive and most of them were condensed so I took two weeks worth of courses in one week.
Anyways, back on topic the reason yoshi's metagame hasn't advanced is because he's suddenly been hit with the stigma of being an overrated character. DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THAT!! It's merely a guess from what i've seen elsewhere.

 

[Rizen]

Ike also has a frame 4 jab except its better in every way due to lower FAF allowing grounded mixups off of jab 1 such as d-tilt and u-tilt, not sure why you mention it when cloud's jab is one of his weaker normals (frankly his grounded moveset is mediocre as a whole)

his projectile without limit is ***, its more of a recovery and landing mixup than anything

most of the good swordies have long range with big hitboxes on their attacks already (marth, ike, corrin, robin) so... next

I was referring to a past discussion where we were discussing how swordies have tradeoffs. Link has projectiles and a big sword so he has slow frame data and movement. Ike has a big swords so he can't have a projectile and has to approach. Toon Link has good mobility and projectiles so his reach is shorter. And so on. Cloud has it all.

when cloud has a move that kills at 30% and bypasses shield, then we can throw around words like "ko punch-like"



Most of all, out of all these mostly reasonable attributes you completely forgot about his up air. If you wanted to make a point about Cloud being overpowered you should have started with that, at least.

Limit beats the heck out of KO punch as a move. I was just comparing LCS to KO punch but limit has so many more applications and advantages. Mac wishes he had Limit.


My bad.

 

[Nobie]

There are certain characters who have high air speed as part of an overall excellent recovery, folks like Mewtwo, Wario, and Greninja.

Thern there's a certain class of characters who have high air speed as compensation for their poor/unusual recoveries. These would be characters like Roy, Cloud, Yoshi, Mega Man.

Cloud's recovery gets him on the stage reliably because of that air speed, but it also means he is highly dependent on that air speed. Often times you'll see Clouds, especially if they have limit, aim to recover high not just because they can, and not just as a mixup, but because they likely feel a greater threat coming from below. It's sort of like how Ness will almost always aim for an air dodge landing from offstage vs. Rosalina.

 

[Fenny]

-Grounded Witch Twist's initial hitboxes with an amplified SDI multiplier, or just different knockback altogether, so that breaking out of the ladder before it starts because Bayonetta dashed in and 4f UpBd is feasible, and in turn encourages a risk factor for Bayonetta to get her ladders going.
-Sourspot hitboxes at the latter half of ABK so optimal neutral aerial spacing does not risk a conversion into a ladder of death.

There. Two simple changes that give the people fighting Bayonetta a sense of relief that they are playing neutral correctly, without compromising the overall power of Bayonetta's combo ability, only forcing her to take slightly more commitment with a jump, or getting closer with ABK in the neutral game. That was easy.

What would be a sourspot ABK? Surely the reduced knockback would make it easier for Bayo to kill when the opponent is in rage percent

 

[MistressRemilia]

I am curious how people think Yoshi's meta will evolve.

He had such a strong start and now you practically never see him.

What happened?

At this point, i'd just say that Yoshi is an immensely flawed character.
The strongest quaities of Yoshi i wouldn't call good, but rather, overwhelming for the opponent, in the way that it isn't too hard to adapt to them: Yoshi's egg game is kind of just there, and the way most of the Yoshi players seem to use the move is simply as a gap filler for a character that doesn't have any business in long range fights, or simply to annoy unprepared opponents for a bit.
Yoshi's advantage state isn't bad at all but it suffers from awkward starters, even though i'd say Yoshi's ground game hasn't been exploited well enough by the playerbase, and we could see a change about that in the future.
Yoshi is also quite a predictable that doesn't take much awareness & adaptability to understand how to beat: Once you've been used to what the character can do, you'll usually just know when Yoshi is attempting to do crossups, or any form of mixup to throw you off, the character as a whole i find rather predictable. And the major issue is that the Yoshi metagame has barely evolved to face this major issue: No one really feels threatned after a Yoshi got a Neutral B on them, because it doesn't really pose any threat. Yoshi's throw game isn't good but it's somewhat exploitable through the use of frame trapping, Yoshidora does that quite a bit, but no other Yoshi seem to do it as efficiently as him. All of these flaws leads into matchups that are quite hard to get past, and as you can guess, a lack of solid or consistent result coming from the character.

 

[Fenny]

Alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, immediately Dairs, squashes her hurtbox, takes the 26 frames of landing lag, and goes on her merry way.

You can still be punished for it if it's a fast faller you're up against.

Alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, retains one more Side B, and bails out with DABK away from you.

She wouldn't have ABK to dABK with if she was trying to get actual damage. How often do you see Zack or Salem dABK out of a combo, if ever?

Alternatively alternatively alternatively, the Bayo realizes she dropped the combo, Nairs down to the ground, and uses the newly discovered landing cancel special trick that negates all landing lag, thereby making her purported weakness a joke, and Heel Slides away.

Clearly you don't get how that works lmao

You need an ABK remaining to do it, and even then you get off, what, 14%? Incredibly frame-tight, only worth doing as a combo mixup, and on top of that the fact that only Nair triggers it with any kind of consistency currently limits its use severely.

 

[ARISTOS]

Can we ban Duckhunt before EVO2017!?

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) January 25, 2017

 

[Sinister Slush]

I am curious how people think Yoshi's meta will evolve.

He had such a strong start and now you practically never see him.

What happened?

What strong start. Japanese putting him as top 3? Cause otherwise there wasn't any Yoshi's getting top 16 or even 32 anywhere early on, the first big breakout performance some people kinda brought up back then was Firefly SSC and Sky APEX (talking 2014/2015) once it was mid to late 2015 Wall and Raptor started doing more stuff but still not anything like top 32 at nationals still, just a lot of regional Yoshi's doing well at locals and occasionally a regional.

And the major issue is that the Yoshi metagame has barely evolved to face this major issue: No one really feels threatned after a Yoshi got a Neutral B on them, because it doesn't really pose any threat. Yoshi's throw game isn't good but it's somewhat exploitable through the use of frame trapping, Yoshidora does that quite a bit, but no other Yoshi seem to do it as efficiently as him.

There's not really much to "evolve" for Yoshi.

I haven't watched Yoshidora or Aiba for awhile cause one is online only and the other never enters. So send a decent example if you have one on this grab game that he's apparently evolved if possible.
Otherwise Yoshi's grab game we have delved into, one of em making it so people would stop using grab release and two using Dthrow more often low to mid % or if we have rage mid to high % on enemies since it sometimes true combos into Uair on certain characters. And even the kill throws in this video isn't always 100% certain, it requires the person to not DI away and airdodge/jump away.


There's no deep secret to Yoshi's issue, no real range outside of frame 16 Fair, lackluster neutral with no decent poke in it as well and no 100% surefire kill confirm from throws with every grab being 55+ frames of lag if you miss along with bad startup so can't shield grab either if pressured gotta rely on fullhop Nair but if they shield it you're in the air versus them now, while losing to pretty much every relevant top tier that's super common today.
Diddy Bayonetta Cloud and any swordie like MK Marth (four of these MUs being -2, possible -3 for one down the line with it being Cloud), run into any of those 5 and you're getting knocked out early guaranteed. Or have the luckiest bracket and avoid all those MUs like Snoop from Genesis 4 outplacing Raptor (128th) who lost to craftis that Snoop beat and Wall (65th) who lost to Mr.E's Marth.

As for everything else (off current tierlist) between Sheik and Mewtwo Yoshi can handle okayish but he'll lose of course if the player knows the MU.


Yoshi is basically a jack of all trades master of none. Just like most characters in any competitive game below their high tier characters, he heavily relies on people to not know the character/MU to do incredibly well albeit even half baked Cloud's or Diddy's can still give an experienced Yoshi a hard time.

If Yoshi had his Brawl Pivot grab and Bair in smash 4 he'd be top 10 for sure but looking at the fact 10+ Yoshi's attended G4 and the results weren't too pretty (some just unlucky brackets) and how the year went for Yoshi wasn't exactly stellar, the character might dip a little from being King of Mid-tier since even characters below him are doing extremely well.
Top 30 maybe?

 

[Funbot28]

Yeh I just wanted to say that the character hate towards Bayonetta really needs to stop at this point. I mean I guess I understood it pre-patch (even though I did not agree with it), but really there are no valid reasons to argue about her fairness in the metagame and the people who play her. For people who do not know, MKLeo tweeted out insinuating that Zack only received a top 8 placement and beating "better players then him" was because of him abusing bayo's "broken" mechanics. This type of discredit towards a player/character should really not be tolerated not only because its really not true, but also because it can create environments where players might actually feel intimidated to play due to fearing the negative comments such as these (Zack did not care too much which is good on him).

Bayo is not broken guys, people have just developed her metagame after Bayo players were forced to post 1.16, making her to be one of the best characters in the game oncemore.

 

[BSP]

Make either Witch Twist or Witch Time not start on f4. Hell, change the SDI modifier on WT again if you want. I don't care, do both if you need to.
But those having death followups with Bayo herself having a f4 jumpsquat makes her shield far, far better than every other character in this game.

>She'll have large startup to balance out these combos

>gets a F4 move that can used OOS and converts into said combos.

She almost confuses me as much as Cloud. It's like saying "Falcon will be combo food" as a weakness and then giving him flip jump.

 

[TriTails]

I feel like WT at least needs to be altered so that the time you get caught takes the move's power into account.

You can't tell me a Luigi ****ken down tilt gets me KO'd because I was at 100%-ish and got slow-mo: Bayo Edition for like 3 seconds.

Just my opinion tho.

 

[Nemesis561]

Yeh I just wanted to say that the character hate towards Bayonetta really needs to stop at this point. I mean I guess I understood it pre-patch (even though I did not agree with it), but really there are no valid reasons to argue about her fairness in the metagame and the people who play her. For people who do not know, MKLeo tweeted out insinuating that Zack only received a top 8 placement and beating "better players then him" was because of him abusing bayo's "broken" mechanics. This type of discredit towards a player/character should really not be tolerated not only because its really not true, but also because it can create environments where players might actually feel intimidated to play due to fearing the negative comments such as these (Zack did not care too much which is good on him).

Bayo is not broken guys, people have just developed her metagame after Bayo players were forced to post 1.16, making her to be one of the best characters in the game oncemore.

That's your opinion, and you are totally deserving of having it, but don't try to make it into a blanket statement of fact. Many people would disagree with you is all I'm saying, some of her tools are wildly overtuned (in my opinion).

However, I agree that people should not be harassed for their choice of character, or their level of skill as a player questioned

 

[Jamurai]

Lack of range becomes less of an issue for a character the faster they are. Just look at Mario or Pikachu. I don't think it's a valid reason for why Yoshi fails so hard at top level.

The fact that he can't land well, is very prone to being gimped, and can't kill without committing pretty hard is more significant. Partly why his MUs vs half the top and high tiers are so bad. Any character with at least a -2 matchup with Cloud AND Diddy is doomed to fail.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I feel like there should be a post on here that goes over all of the weaknesses Bayonetta have and how we can exploit them. There is clearly a lot of Bayonetta hate here, mostly coming from more new posters I`ve noticed. As well as Cloud hate but it`s died down a little, I may go and rewrite my Anti Cloud primer if people are really struggling to beat Cloud.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I wouldn't say Bayo is broken or OP at all rather just a bit overtunned. Which when your likely one of the three best characters in the game isn't surprising (I think people forget how silly Diddy is) Witch Twist could stand to be tweeked so your not at risk of getting hit by a frame 4 combo starter at any moment and Bayo could stand not being able to get back to stage literally from anywhere but she has counterplay. I can see why people think she's super strong as it doesn't seem like she has appropriate weakness for her strengths compared to other Top tiers like Fox or Rosalina.

Grabs are really strong against her if she tries approaching with the non kick version of heel slide you can easily pivot grab her out of it (Try it with Bowser and laugh at the absurdity of it) obviously if you bait a Witch Time that's a free grab. By prioritizing getting the grab over a falling aerial or however you get your strings started you condition Bayo to avoid grabs meaning less Witch Times meaning more openings for your other moves.

You also just gotta learn how to SDI her combos I know some characters have a much harder time doing this but that's more of a issue with your character and not Bayonetta. SDI will save you so much against Bayonetta, I've completely avoided any follow up after one Witch Twist with SDI. I know this isn't the end all to be all as she has plenty other ways to roll over you with combos like that ridiculous F-air 1-Fair 1 thing she has but it's still helps.

Also and it doesn't get said enough punish her special landing lag.

 

[Zelder]

People will always complain about Bayonetta because fighting her is a headache and a half. When you're not getting hit by a frame 4 combo starter, you're watching her zip through the air with reckless glee thanks to ABK. You're playing extremely patient for fear of a Twist/Time, while she's slapping buttons or shooting you from across the stage with dtilt. You're mastering your SDI to avoid getting laddered/followed up on, while she's putting out lingering aerial hitboxes that beat airdodges. I don't think it's unfair to say it requires a bit more patience, awareness and knowledge for the player going against Bayonetta than the player playing as Bayonetta.

PLEASE don't interpret this as a "Bayonetta carries players" argument, or a "Bayonetta is OP please ban/nerf*" argument, I think she's quite in line with the rest of the top tiers. I'm just trying to articulate why Bayonetta frustrates people, and will continue to frustrate people - she kind of breaks the rules of Smash 4.

NOW, with that frustration being aired - does it actually help anything? Nope! Bayonetta is not going to be removed from the game, we're not going to ban her (nor should we), and barring a miraculous Switch port and update, this is the final iteration of Smash 4. Our energies would be better spent discussing ways to deal with Bayonetta, than crying about Bayonetta (applause to Envoy of Chaos for starting us down that path). At least up until the point where EVO 2017 has Salem vs CaptainZack in GFs (on DUCK HUNT) - then I'd be okay with a bit of crying.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

People will always complain about Bayonetta because fighting her is a headache and a half. When you're not getting hit by a frame 4 combo starter, you're watching her zip through the air with reckless glee thanks to ABK. You're playing extremely patient for fear of a Twist/Time, while she's slapping buttons or shooting you from across the stage with dtilt. You're mastering your SDI to avoid getting laddered/followed up on, while she's putting out lingering aerial hitboxes that beat airdodges. I don't think it's unfair to say it requires a bit more patience, awareness and knowledge for the player going against Bayonetta than the player playing as Bayonetta.

PLEASE don't interpret this as a "Bayonetta carries players" argument, or a "Bayonetta is OP please ban/nerf*" argument, I think she's quite in line with the rest of the top tiers. I'm just trying to articulate why Bayonetta frustrates people, and will continue to frustrate people - she kind of breaks the rules of Smash 4.

NOW, with that frustration being aired - does it actually help anything? Nope! Bayonetta is not going to be removed from the game, we're not going to ban her (nor should we), and barring a miraculous Switch port and update, this is the final iteration of Smash 4. Our energies would be better spent discussing ways to deal with Bayonetta, than crying about Bayonetta (applause to Envoy of Chaos for starting us down that path). At least up until the point where EVO 2017 has Salem vs CaptainZack in GFs (on DUCK HUNT) - then I'd be okay with a bit of crying.

That's all well and good if you have secondary pockets but what if you solo main a heavyweight like Bowser, DK, or in my case charizard. They have an impossible time SDI'ing out of combos due to their weight and disadvantage state so bayo essentially combos them for free due to her f4 combo starter which makes approaching her unbelievably dangerous. Baiting, pivot grabs and zoning might help but you're essentially playing a waiting game with bayo and have to worry about things she doesn't have to worry about like combo follow-ups, ladder combos, and 0-death strings. The reason she gets so much hate is that it forces character loyalists like myself and certain solo mains to be barred from getting good marks since our characters don't have the tools needed to get around bayos overtuned kit without either having a ridiculous amount of skill or having bayo make multiple mistakes we can exploit.
I'm not saying a super-heavyweight can't beat her (heck look at Nairo's Bowser or Tweek's DK) but it's harder for us to do so and cements a couple of super heavyweights as non-viable in a competitive setting.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

That's all well and good if you have secondary pockets but what if you solo main a heavyweight like Bowser, DK, or in my case charizard. They have an impossible time SDI'ing out of combos due to their weight and disadvantage state so bayo essentially combos them for free due to her f4 combo starter which makes approaching her unbelievably dangerous. Baiting, pivot grabs and zoning might help but you're essentially playing a waiting game with bayo and have to worry about things she doesn't have to worry about like combo follow-ups, ladder combos, and 0-death strings. The reason she gets so much hate is that it forces character loyalists like myself and certain solo mains to be barred from getting good marks since our characters don't have the tools needed to get around bayos overtuned kit without either having a ridiculous amount of skill or having bayo make multiple mistakes we can exploit.
I'm not saying a super-heavyweight can't beat her (heck look at Nairo's Bowser or Tweek's DK) but it's harder for us to do so and cements a couple of super heavyweights as non-viable in a competitive setting.

That's just the way competitive games are. Unfortunately not every character can be good and not ever matchup can be fair. I play Ness, I'll never drop Ness because I enjoy using him the most outta anyone in the game despite Shiek boding him for free and then having a few bad MUs. The only two options I have are to grind the MUs out like the Japanese Duck Hunts did (and it clearly has granted them success) or switch characters for certain MUs. I'm currently doing both as I have a Mewtwo I'm working on (since my true secondaries Falco and Zelda are bad) but I'm also going to keep pressing forward with Ness.

I don't know anything about the Zard-Bayo MU I don't know if it's worth attempting to struggle through or not but when you play a low tier character you have to accept that their are just going to be MUs your not going to have a good time against, what you do going forward is up to you and your goals for this game. If you want to pick a secondary up for that MU do so, if you want to remain loyal I don't blame you find a Bayo main and learn that match up throughly. Smash 4 isn't getting any more patches and we don't have any character as polarizing as Brawl Meta Knight so the best we can do is develop counter play like mentioned above

EDIT: I don't mean to keep editing this post I just keep thinking of things to say lol .
Now in addition to all that, I don't mean to say your wrong for being annoyed at the character and how much she may dominate yours that's a totally reasonable thought. If we didn't question characters and how strong they maybe then we would still have Pre Patch Diddy and Pre Patch Bayo around so no question away but only after you've put in enough effort and testing to know what your questioning is valid.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That's just the way competitive games are. Unfortunately not every character can be good and not ever matchup can be fair. I play Ness, I'll never drop Ness because I enjoy using him the most outta anyone in the game despite Shiek boding him for free and then having a few bad MUs. The only two options I have are to grind the MUs out like the Japanese Duck Hunts did (and it clearly has granted them success) or switch characters for certain MUs. I'm currently doing both as I have a Mewtwo I'm working on (since my true secondaries Falco and Zelda are bad) but I'm also going to keep pressing forward with Ness.

I don't know anything about the Zard-Bayo MU I don't know if it's worth attempting to struggle through or not but when you play a low tier character you have to accept that their are just going to be MUs your not going to have a good time against, what you do going forward is up to you and your goals for this game. If you want to pick a secondary up for that MU do so, if you want to remain loyal I don't blame you find a Bayo main and learn that match up throughly. Smash 4 isn't getting any more patches and we don't have any character as polarizing as Brawl Meta Knight so the best we can do is develop counter play like mentioned above

Can I say that is the most open-minded and thoughtful post I ever read? In any case I'm very loyal so I guess I need to grind out the MU. I have gotten some miraculous wins against bayo in FG, I also know that flamethrower beats WT, (something about it causes witch time to cancel out)

 

[Funbot28]

i made a thread here discussing character stigma to not detract discussion from this thread too much:

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-bayonetta-stigma-and-character-hate-in-general.445118/

 

[Rizen]

I feel like there should be a post on here that goes over all of the weaknesses Bayonetta have and how we can exploit them. There is clearly a lot of Bayonetta hate here, mostly coming from more new posters I`ve noticed. As well as Cloud hate but it`s died down a little, I may go and rewrite my Anti Cloud primer if people are really struggling to beat Cloud.

Unless I missed something a few pages ago, no one here is really hating on Bayo/Cloud. The discussions have been pretty good in that regard.

Like I said, people can play who they want and top players all got there by skill.