Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

On a co-incidentally tengentally-related topic, I don't know what it is about camping that gets to people. For a game that's so full of in-close fighting I personally find campy play and characters totally refreshing to watch and tense in a totally different way because suddenly every little percent matters. The internet is full of meme culture and spam, I wouldn't be surprised if 'campy hate' is less a majority of viewers and more a cauldron of some haters and more individuals who either want to stir things up or repeat said memes.

A combination of the short attention span of Internet viewers, and the painful scars of slow losses. Regardless of what you may think of "campy" strategies, a gradual five-minute or so slog on the losing end is still much less frustrating than getting destroyed quickly. Like a game of Risk where a person can basically have won the game long before it actually ends.

 

[ARISTOS]

As a reminder of the legitimacy of slow play styles, Portugal has just drawn their way into winning EURO 2016.

what an awful tournament

 

[Nu~]

For me at least, it isn't the slow paced nature of camping that gets to me...it's how painfully repetitive some characters can make it.

With campy sonics, it's more or less the exact same move and strategy all match. Watching the same thing for 6 minutes straight gets quite boring.

This is the reason why I don't understand how people find wrath boring, yet find mega man (ScAtt's in particular), diddy Kong, or falcon any more interesting when it's more or less the exact same strategy repeated ad nauseam.

 

[sedrf]

because reeeee.
Also people find chasing an opponent mentally draining

 

[Jexulus]

From a completely casual perspective, people who learn to play Smash notice that most characters have melee moves. Since you're given so much freedom of movement and platforms to jump across, the natural playstyle of the typical player usually entails chasing the opponent and hitting them with moves, even if they're playing someone like Mega Man or Duck Hunt. 50% of every move they try to land is Dash attack because it is the attack that happens when you press A while running, which is what they're doing.

Introduce camping to the equation. Suddenly, their rushdown strategy is stopped cold, and because most people don't realize that rushdown isn't the only viable strategy, they get frustrated because they don't know what to do. Even as people get more skilled, we tend to gravitate towards characters like Captain Falcon because, at least until their nuances are explored, they feel great when trying to run headfirst into opponents and smack them in the face.

This isn't to knock on casual play or players, but the realization that camping and zoning are viable strategies in Smash with depth and nuance is one that many players never experience. Many who spectate and many who even play the game at various levels of competitive play get hung up on this, which is why I completely understand the frustration involved.

 

[Dabuz]

What would a Japanese tier list based on their results and meta look like right now? I don't keep up with their scene as much as I should but all I know about them is that Sonic, Megaman, and Duck Hunt do really good.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

This is the reason why I don't understand how people find wrath boring, yet find mega man (ScAtt's in particular), diddy Kong, or falcon any more interesting when it's more or less the exact same strategy repeated ad nauseam.

Because much of Wrath's playstyle involves minimizing movement. While arguably repetitive, the other characters are all doing something.

However, I really don't agree with you're point on Mega Man, Diddy, or Falcon, seeing as just about every character in this game is going to follow a general set of rules. Ryu is constantly looking for a Shoryuken/Shoryu set-up, DK wants a grab, Fox wants an utilt, Puff wants the opponent off stage...It's called a gameplan. Honestly I think Diddy, Mega Man and Falcon are some of the characters that we see more diverse variation within their playstyles given their toolkits, but what do I know?

 

[Djent]

Dabuz Here's a character breakdown for top 4 of June's largest tournaments:

Spoiler: June Results

TUS Tournament 5: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
IROHA Suma 7: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (note: single elimination)
Karisuma 8: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Sumabato 11: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th

is killing it, and has done surprisingly well too. has several top-level reps who can beat great players. Others like DK and Pit are mostly carried by one person. If you extend this project back into May and/or include more of top 8, Cloud and MM also have good showings from several people.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Honestly I think Diddy, Mega Man and Falcon are some of the characters that we see more diverse playstyles given their toolkits, but what do I know

Please enlighten me about how falcon can facilitate multiple playstyles with a character as polarizing as him (I see him as counter-attacking: the character).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Apparently Zan3-2 over Void



EDIT:There was also a Roy ditto in this set

 

[Wintermelon43]

What would a Japanese tier list based on their results and meta look like right now? I don't keep up with their scene as much as I should but all I know about them is that Sonic, Megaman, and Duck Hunt do really good.

I'm not fully sure, but I'm guessing that this (Unordered) list would be at least somewhat accurate for it:

Top tier:

Top tier 2:

High tier:

Upper Mid tier:

Mid tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom Tier:

Whereas an American version (Also unordered) would average to about this (Note that I don't agree with this, this is just a guess at the average competitve community opinions. My actual tier list will be posted after EVO)

Top Tier:

Top tier 2:

High Tier:

Upper Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom tier:

I could defitenly be wrong though. No japanease players have posted a tier list in a while

And as I said, the above is NOT my opinion, just a guess at an average competitve smash community's thoughts based on each region. So unless the general consensus is differant than what I have listed, don't critigize it please, it isn't my opinion

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Please enlighten me about how falcon can facilitate multiple playstyles with a character as polarizing as him (I see him as counter-attacking: the character).

Poor wording on my part. He can't necessarily facilitate multiple playstyles, I'm not arguing with that, but he can diversify the rush-down/bait & punish playstyle that he serves. The initial point I was trying to make was that while seen as "repetitive", Falcon has several different ways to go about handling different situations.

There is a huge contrast between the "hype Falcon" and the "lame Falcon". The former prefers approaching with dash attacks, falling uair, and grabs, whereas the latter generally spaces with nair, bair, and the occasional run up > shield. Out of dthrow alone there are so many options. There's the true followups (nair & uair), the read followup ( which usually consists of the opponent taking a knee, dair, bair, pivot fsmash, or even Falcon punch), and the shenanigans (uair > footstool for instance). There are the Falcons who absolutely prefer minimizing space between them and their opponents, constantly applying pressure and the ones who choose to reset to neutral, go back to the spacing game, and hold their lead. Some players will go offstage every chance they get, looking for a spike, airdodge, or whatever else, and others prefer staying where it's safe edgeguarding with a measly utilt.

While admittedly poorly worded, the point I was trying to make is that Falcon (along with the others) is capable of different advances and uses for what's in his toolkit. That to call his gameplay repetitive is silly seeing how much potential there is for variation on a deeper level.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

So here's something that I thought of, and I doubt I'm the first to think of it because it seems like pretty surface level analysis, but I'll share it anyway. I don't know an awful lot about Japan's meta, but I do know that in general they are classified as a more defensive metagame, and I have heard (not 100% sure if I'm getting this right) that they're generally Bo1 for tournament matches (again, I believe I've heard this but I cannot confirm). Since the whole concept of aggression is that it is a high risk, high reward playstyle that works best when you know the habits and defensive responses of your opponent and can read them and cover them appropriately, then maybe we can see why Japan has a more defensive meta? A Bo1 format inherently means less interaction, therefore less opportunity for adaptation, and therefore most people will opt for the safest, lowest risk options? In other words, playing a spin2win campy sonic makes more sense because there's no reason to rush down an opponent who you only have one game to work with and therefore cannot adequately read? Maybe that all just sounded like a wordy way of saying "short sets, play safe" but idk.

 

[meleebrawler]

From a completely casual perspective, people who learn to play Smash notice that most characters have melee moves. Since you're given so much freedom of movement and platforms to jump across, the natural playstyle of the typical player usually entails chasing the opponent and hitting them with moves, even if they're playing someone like Mega Man or Duck Hunt. 50% of every move they try to land is Dash attack because it is the attack that happens when you press A while running, which is what they're doing.

Introduce camping to the equation. Suddenly, their rushdown strategy is stopped cold, and because most people don't realize that rushdown isn't the only viable strategy, they get frustrated because they don't know what to do. Even as people get more skilled, we tend to gravitate towards characters like Captain Falcon because, at least until their nuances are explored, they feel great when trying to run headfirst into opponents and smack them in the face.

This isn't to knock on casual play or players, but the realization that camping and zoning are viable strategies in Smash with depth and nuance is one that many players never experience. Many who spectate and many who even play the game at various levels of competitive play get hung up on this, which is why I completely understand the frustration involved.

Funny. My first experiences playing Smash had me thinking that only B button was used to attack due to a steady diet of games where pressing A was to jump.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Apparently Zan3-2 over Void



EDIT:There was also a Roy ditto in this set

When and where did this happen? Is there footage?

I would imagine Sheik beats both links since she can get in on campy characters fairly easily.

 

[Pudgetalks]

I'm not fully sure, but I'm guessing that this (Unordered) list would be at least somewhat accurate for it:

Top tier:

Top tier 2:

High tier:

Upper Mid tier:

Mid tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom Tier:

Whereas an American version (Also unordered) would average to about this (Note that I don't agree with this, this is just a guess at the average competitve community opinions. My actual tier list will be posted after EVO)

Top Tier:

Top tier 2:

High Tier:

Upper Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom tier:

I could defitenly be wrong though. No japanease players have posted a tier list in a while

And as I said, the above is NOT my opinion, just a guess at an average competitve smash community's thoughts based on each region. So unless the general consensus is differant than what I have listed, don't critigize it please, it isn't my opinion

I would disagree with your Fox placement in japan, he really hasn't proven himself in japan outside that one tournament SH won a few months back.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

When and where did this happen? Is there footage?

I would imagine Sheik beats both links since she can get in on campy characters fairly easily.

Fire and Dice and idk about footage. Check Larrys Twitter tho

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Probably happened at FAD EVO grind on Sunday. It's a small monthly in SoCal that has some decently stacked players. J JustSomeScrub

 

[Blobface]

Something that's often overlooked as to why people find Sonic so boring is that his disadvantage is much much better than other "campy" characters. So he not only takes forever to even hit, but you barely get anything when you finally do hit him.

That being said hatred of Sonic as a character should absolutely not spill over to players.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Just thought I'd share this samus MU chart made by some expert samus players. The olimar MU makes sense for samus to lose, but I don't think it's 30:70

 

[FeelMeUp]

To be frank, if I knew my whole tournament was Bo1 I'd be timing people out almost every single game.
I don't blame them for being inherently more defensive.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Something that's often overlooked as to why people find Sonic so boring is that his disadvantage is much much better than other "campy" characters. So he not only takes forever to even hit, but you barely get anything when you finally do hit him.

That being said hatred of Sonic as a character should absolutely not spill over to players.

Which is pretty much the same reason Puff is hated in Melee. Extremely good camp game, stellar recovery (in a game where almost every other character gets edge guarded hard) + most characters regular combos often don't work on her which leads to really drawn out matches.

People complain about Puff being bad in this game (though I'd argue she's far from bottom 5) but if she was top tier, we'd definitely have another Sonic on our hands.

Anyway another reason I think Sonic is hated is because he's a lot different in terms of playstyle in general compared to most Smash characters so regular tactics don't work on him.

For instance, no other character has safe moves that are almost non-reactable from mid screen. He threatens from so far away even when doing nothing. And his extreme mobility and ability to whiff punish in so many situations where other characters couldn't means things like spacing out aerials don't work that well versus him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Which is pretty much the same reason Puff is hated in Melee. Extremely good camp game, stellar recovery (in a game where almost every other character gets edge guarded hard) + most characters regular combos often don't work on her which leads to really drawn out matches.

People complain about Puff being bad in this game (though I'd argue she's far from bottom 5) but if she was top tier, we'd definitely have another Sonic on our hands.

Anyway another reason I think Sonic is hated is because he's a lot different in terms of playstyle in general compared to most Smash characters so regular tactics don't work on him.

For instance, no other character has safe moves that are almost non-reactable from mid screen. He threatens from so far away even when doing nothing. And his extreme mobility and ability to whiff punish in so many situations where other characters couldn't means things like spacing out aerials don't work that well versus him.

add on the fact that he has random invincibility on all of his good moves, is almost twice as fast as marth(iirc), and gets 17-20% or a stock for connecting a spindash
he'd be so much more tolerable if spring and spindash alone didn't have invincibility.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just thought I'd share this samus MU chart made by some expert samus players. The olimar MU makes sense for samus to lose, but I don't think it's 30:70

As a Zard main...

I actually really agree with Charizard's placement here.

Samus beats Zard comfortably, but not so much that it's hell.

That doesn't happen til she takes on the power suit.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Sonic is most certainly a top 8 character, however the only Sonics fully exploiting his strengths in my opinion are SuperGirlKels, 6WX, and Komorikiri. I don't think Seagull is however. Sonic just plays unlike any other character as well, in such a way that he isn't campy in the traditional sense, and he has mixup potential with his spin dashes. Sonic is a character that does best when he can have his opponents in a disadvantageous position, such as above him via auto Spindash combos, which lead into an Up Air. He's got a 50 / 50, a kill throw, auto combos, a gimp move, basically beats your shield since he can cross it up, etc.

TLDR Sonic is a good character.

 

[Das Koopa]

week results, thanks to @Jaguar360 for Breakout and Impact

Spoiler: Smash at Xanadu 157 (July 6th) (MD/VA) (157 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ESAM ,
2nd: Pink Fresh
3rd: WadiRob
4th: C3PO
5th: Angel Cortez
5th: Coney
7th: Max Ketchum
7th: Seagull Joe
9th: 6WX
9th: Tension
9th: ZD
9th: Zephyr
13th: Viceroy
13th: Average Joe
13th: Jebb
13th: Dexter

Spoiler: Midwest Mayhem 4 (July 9th) (Midwest) (230 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: 6WX
2nd: Hyuga
3rd: Ally
4th: Pink Fresh
5th: Seagull Joe
5th: Zinoto
7th: DarkShad
7th: Tyroy
9th: Ned
9th: Ksev
9th: Renegade
9th: JJRockets
13th: JTWild
13th: UR Sage
13th: PowPow
13th: H-Man

Spoiler: Impact (July 9th) (South) (147 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Trela
2nd: Espy
3rd: Jerm ,
4th: GrimTurtle
5th: Megafox
5th: KJ
7th: Illusion
7th: Whiteout
9th: Joker
9th: Haipe
9th: Gnes ,
9th: Whispy
13th: SaSSy
13th: Walter
13th: WeeGee
13th: Solace/Deluxemenu

Spoiler: Breakout 4 (July 9th) (Midwest) (89 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Rayquaza07
2nd: Miloni
3rd: Ryuga ,
4th: Smasher1001
5th: SlimShady
5th: King James
7th: Eureka
7th: Regalht ,
9th: SETHsational
9th: Nebula
9th: Daybreak , , ,
9th: exJORDANary
13th: Gameliking
13th: Adorable Knight ,
13th: Technology
13th: Gunblade ,

Spoiler: Los Angeles Fraud Fights (July 9th) (Southern California) (97 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Nicko
2nd: Aarvark
3rd: TLTC
4th: MK Iori ,
5th: Not Last
5th: Rollo
7th: Chiroz
7th: SL Dragon
9th: El Gato
9th: Elegant
9th: Blue
9th: Das
13th: DiscorD
13th: Light
13th: A2ZOMG
13th: Noteka

Spoiler: Divine Intervention (July 9th) (Southeast) (91 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Wrath
2nd: Fatality
3rd: Hungrybox
4th: Scatt
5th: Neos
5th: Zack?
7th: PR QT
7th: Umby
9th: DI Apollo
9th: Justice
9th: Ray
9th: PH Mayo
13th: Loco
13th: Mr. Speedman
13th: PR Seren
13th: Z6 Suber

 

[FeelMeUp]

I wonder when people are going to stop pretending Ryu has no results.

 

[L9999]

I wonder when people are going to stop pretending Ryu has no results.

People also like to pretend Kamui, Luigi, and Captain Falcon don't have results either. Also, did Hbox really played to win Smash 4? I have to see the matches.

 

[MushroomKiller]

My actual tier list will be posted after EVO

Please don't.

People also like to pretend Kamui, Luigi, and Captain Falcon don't have results either.

Don't forget Yoshi.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Huh, I knew Nicko was at a tournament but it didn't get streamed, would have been cool to see vods. This isn't the only time where Nicko gets top 3 in SoCal weeklies/locals lol

As a Zard main...

I actually really agree with Charizard's placement here.

Samus beats Zard comfortably, but not so much that it's hell.

That doesn't happen til she takes on the power suit.

Oh? Can you explain this? not doubting you btw

 

[Nidtendofreak]

People also like to pretend Kamui, Luigi, and Captain Falcon don't have results either. Also, did Hbox really played to win Smash 4? I have to see the matches.

Corrin didn't until recently. By "recently" I mean "the last two weeks". Which is why he was so low on Das Koopa's chart rankings for so long.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

As a Zard main...

I actually really agree with Charizard's placement here.

Samus beats Zard comfortably, but not so much that it's hell.

That doesn't happen til she takes on the power suit.

Zard secondary and I have to agree with you there, there are a few stages where I say its more evenish though. DH and T&C make it really REALLY easy to kill, ridiculously easy, so easy in fact that those are stages that even with a character as strong as Mewtwo I will never counterpick there. All he has to do is get 2 grabs and you're in kill percent. If he has a percent lead it becomes even worse, he can just camp under or on the highest platform, more so on DH than T&C but its still disgusting.

 

[sedrf]

Holy that's alot of sonics

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Zard results bring a tear to this guy's eye.



Hopefully its a sign of things to come.

But yeah, for such a disliked character, Sonic is getting a lot of use.




Kind of brings up a question I have...

Is Sonic the new Rosalina? Many moons ago, she was "the campy character" who got just as much hate. Has that title passed to Sonic or did he just join her ranks?

And if so, who outcamps the other?

 

[FeelMeUp]

When playing vs Sonic it really does "feel" like you're getting camped.
Rosa doesn't give a similar feeling unless you're playing customs.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Rosa is still attacking with Luma jab usually when she's camping. Sonic is usually running away, hitting occasionally, and abusing the invincibility on spin dash. Sonic wastes the opponents time when he camps, making them impatient and constantly having to approach him, Rosalina just continues to mess you up, just from a distance.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sonic always has been like that, ever since Brawl (he couldn't kill effectively, so aiming for a timeout was one of his prime viable strategies), and apparently his players are getting more patient lately. That is good for his meta, I guess.

Rosa is lame for other reasons like quick dodges (difficult to react to since she disappears [which I think is very important for her and Mewtwo's viability]), jank kills and "high-priority" moves in Luma that is VERY difficult to get through for most characters, but it is still true that she doesn't approach all that much.

The main thing is probably that she won't actually spend a lot of time actually avoiding hits at the same level as Sonic does.

 

[Dabuz]

I'm not fully sure, but I'm guessing that this (Unordered) list would be at least somewhat accurate for it:

Top tier:

Top tier 2:

High tier:

Upper Mid tier:

Mid tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom Tier:

Whereas an American version (Also unordered) would average to about this (Note that I don't agree with this, this is just a guess at the average competitve community opinions. My actual tier list will be posted after EVO)

Top Tier:

Top tier 2:

High Tier:

Upper Mid Tier:

Mid Tier:

Lower Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Bottom tier:

I could defitenly be wrong though. No japanease players have posted a tier list in a while

And as I said, the above is NOT my opinion, just a guess at an average competitve smash community's thoughts based on each region. So unless the general consensus is differant than what I have listed, don't critigize it please, it isn't my opinion

Obviously this won't be 100% accurate, but what I find interesting is, if we take the top list as a "standard" japanese tier list that's representative of their meta, there are more characters in the high tiers, where as an "american" tier list has a lot more characters in those low tiers, does that mean Japan has advanced the meta of these characters more, or has America developed the counter meta more? Or do the regions just look at tiers very different?


Characters not included in the Japanese list are: Charizard, Link, Falco, Shulk, Wii Fit? (Not enough Data on how they do in Japan?)

Not included in American list is Wario? (Oversight?)


For the most part, despite what people like to say are drastically different metas, there is a general idea of how strong each character is, even if the results are vastly different (Compare Their ZSS, Marths, and Fox's to ours in results).


Also, notable differences (2 tiers or more) between these lists are the placings of

Lucario (Higher in Japan), Olimar (Higher in Japan), Duck Hunt (Higher in Japan), Game and Watch (Higher in Japan), Lucas (Higher in Japan)

Pikachu (Lower in Japan), Ike (Lower in Japan), Kirby (Lower in Japan)

A lot of these are obvious, but at the same time, it's probably funny because chances are japanese players look at Ike the same way we look at duck hunt, a character we they know is good, but have next no one using them and showing off their skills at top level despite videos from multiple players to study and copy from. It makes me wonder what would happen if one of our top players of an underrated character, such as Esam for Pikachu went to Japan, would we see more Pikachu's popping up and doing well there as some sort of confirmation bias of how good the character is? Bring their best Lucas here, what happens? I was actually expecting drastically different lists.


I know this is random, but I know the top Japanese Olimar and Duck Hunt players in Japan posted their matchup charts and they had some abysmal (-2 or -3) matchups but are still considered great, so does this mean Japan favors results more than ttheory due to the inconsistency of their tournament placings do they value overall spread more than solo viability determined by matchups against more more common characters? (Which would explain why characters which really dominate some matchups and get wrecked in others such as duck and Olimar)


Does anyone know what the stage picking rules in Japan are? (number of stages, how striking works, ect.)

 

[Aaron1997]

keeps getting great Regional Results but still lacks that breakout performance at a Major. out of nowhere, s Everywhere, still Hanging around, still getting amazing results at majors but people are still ignoring him. and the lack of . EVO is going to be fun

 

[adom4]

Dabuz I don't know how they strike stages but they usually have a very small stagelist (FD, SV, BF)