Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

I think Smash players are so used to "read-based" characters being inherently disadvantaged by the various games' engines that many assume that they're inherently inferior to other types. After all, what hope does Captain Falcon in Melee have when Fox exists (insert Hax quote here)?

But it's possible for a read-based character to thrive in a fighting game. Kazunoko took Yun in Ultra Street Fighter IV to a Capcom Cup victory last year.

In Smash, I think there's a recurring belief that reads are synonymous with "swag" when in fact it can be thought of just another skill to hone. If a player or character is successfully rewarded for honing that skill, then that's a step in the right direction. We still haven't achieved it yet, but at least this version of Ganondorf is getting closer.

Ideally, I think a read-based character should be one who not only gets rewarded for successful reads through damage, but by creating further situations that give the read-based character a greater chance of further success. Let's say that two characters are in a rock-paper-scissors situation and the read-based character wins that exchange. What should happen is that either the character gets an additional option, or the opponent loses an option. And on and on it goes until the opponent is able to reset back to neutral.

I think the term for this in 2D fighters is "vortex" and tends to especially apply to situations where the opponent is getting up from a knockdown. The closest analogue we have to this is techchases, I guess? Also ledge traps.

 

[FullMoon]

Y2Kay
I'm curious...

What is Greninja's gameplan overall? From what I've gotten in my short time of actually taking a closer look at the character, he seems to be focused around tricky movement and maximizing punishes when you successfully fool the opponent... but I'm not fully sure.

What draws people to the character?

For myself I'm usually drawn to speedy and mobile characters (hence why I love playing ninjas in games) so Greninja, who has some of the best mobility stats in the game overall, really appeals to me. It also helps that he hits hard for his speed and is at least average in most things that aren't OoS options

Though most of the reason behind it is still that I love the character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Y2Kay
I'm curious...

What is Greninja's gameplan overall? From what I've gotten in my short time of actually taking a closer look at the character, he seems to be focused around tricky movement and maximizing punishes when you successfully fool the opponent... but I'm not fully sure.

What draws people to the character?

He is a flippin NINJA FROG and his tongue is his shinobi scarf!!!

What's not to love?!?!?!

 

[money1246]

Emblem Lord Is Ryu and Cloud truly the best combination for Ryu? Megaman gives both of them trouble. I would think that Ryu and Fox is combination that might possibly beat everybody on the roster.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You gonna lose to Sheik still.

I think Cloud does fine vs Megaman. idk why people say he loses. Personally I ALWAYS feel like I struggled far less with Cloud and didn't have to try even half as hard as I did with Ryu?

How does mewtwo do vs MM anyways.

Annnnd the best Ryu secondary is Sheik. I do not recall specifically saying Cloud was the best secondary for him, but if I did then I apologize.

 

[Y2Kay]

Y2Kay
I'm curious...

What is Greninja's gameplan overall? From what I've gotten in my short time of actually taking a closer look at the character, he seems to be focused around tricky movement and maximizing punishes when you successfully fool the opponent... but I'm not fully sure.

What draws people to the character?

Thanks for asking ~

What's cool?

Pokemon.

What's also cool?

Ninjas.

It's no brainer really.

but for real . . . .

I think what sets apart greninja from the rest of the cast is his mobility.

Bar Limit Cloud, I think Greninja has some of the overall mobility in the game. (Possibly the best, ZSS maybe better tho)

He has a high run speed, good jump squat, really good jump height, good acceleration, good air speed, good fast fall acceleration, a great pivot, good autocancel windows and landing lag on Fair, Bair, and Nair, all his tilts can be pivoted, and all his pivot tilts are really useful.

Yoshi and Jigglypuff are really good in air but sluggish on the ground, Sonic and Fox are vice versa. Greninja is truly the best of both worlds.

Greninja also has very good offensive tools at his advantage: mobility, edgeguarding, good projectiles, kill power, disjoints,good grab game, etc.

But on the flipside, his defensive options aren't the best. His forward roll and spot dodge are average, and his back roll is poor. In fact, greninja is the only character who has different FAF on his forward and back rolls. (40 on forward and 33 on back). Sakurai wen't out of his way to make sure his defensive options weren't good.

In the end, Greninja should be played kinda like a real ninja. He has a lot of tools at his disposal, to pressure his foes and deal good damage, but he is at his weakest once he get's pinned into a defensive spot. (He's a ninja, not a tank) Instead, greninja runs away, throwing retreating aerials and shuikens to relieve pressure.

I just like the rhythm he has to his.His movement, his comboes, . . . they all kind of feel like they do have a rhythm to it, like I could tap my feet to it. Once you learn his combos and they become muscle memory and are like breathing to you. You can just feel it in your bone what the sequence is. It's probably like this for other mains too.

Luckily, Mewtwo not only has good synergy with greninja in terms of coverage, but I also get this feeling of 'rhythm ' with him as well. Pretty excited to be playing right now, more motivated than ever now that I know who I'm gonna roll with now.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

But it's possible for a read-based character to thrive in a fighting game. Kazunoko took Yun in Ultra Street Fighter IV to a Capcom Cup victory last year.

Kind of off topic, but I don't really think Yun would qualify as a read based. I feel Gief and Hugo fit that description better.

 

[meticulousboy]

But I do get both sides of the question I asked. Heavily reliant on reads is good for closing out stocks prematurely. Better frame data makes it harder for the opponent TO REACT. Such is why Sheik sits where she does on the tier list because most of her hitboxes come out in thirteen frames or less, like Ftilt, Fair, and Uair. A video from the Beefy Smash Doods taught me that average reaction time is approximately 13 frames. Ever wonder why Zelda is bottom tier IMO? Because her F14 Up Air is easy to react to.

"But...that's not why she's bottom tier. Din's Fire leaves her helpless and Phantom Slash is only useful by the ledge for edge guarding. Those are why she's so low on the list."

Before any of you tell me anything along those lines, I am well aware of those things. This is just my possible speculation that adds on to it. Because if Zelda had a quicker Up Air, she probably would be better. And so, you have a character that has little reliance on reads (except for LKs)on every move because she isn't a hard hitter like Ike, but doesn't have the quick frame data to compensate either.

 

[Piipp]

You gonna lose to Sheik still.

I think Cloud does fine vs Megaman. idk why people say he loses. Personally I ALWAYS feel like I struggled far less with Cloud and didn't have to try even half as hard as I did with Ryu?

How does mewtwo do vs MM anyways.

Annnnd the best Ryu secondary is Sheik. I do not recall specifically saying Cloud was the best secondary for him, but if I did then I apologize.

Megaman struggles a little bit against M2, but not too bad.

Trying to keep Mewtwo out is frusturating. This is due to the range on most of his moves and the fact that he has confusion and other moves that cancel pellets (Bair, Nair). You, for the most part, have to stay in pellet range of M2 because of his ability to charge Shadowball (if you don't stay in range, your opponent is most likely to charge their Shadowball). Fully charged Shadowball beats out all of MM's projectiles. Including leaf shield and lemons. MM's weight and fallspeed definitely doesn't help his case either in this MU. He gets combo'd fairly easy and is susceptible to getting hit by fair strings and other combos.

Benefits for Megaman include, M2's weight, decent kill options, and his ability to edgeguard. Using pellets to bait out a confusion, and using leaf shield and/or metal blade offstage is are good options to rack up damage and edgeguard.

In the MU Megaman, is forced to bait M2 and force him to commit in order to rack up enough damage to get the kill. Mewtwo gets to throw out Shadowballs, his reflector, and other safe poking options.

It's definitely do-able, but this is mostly my experience in the MU. It's always been one that I've struggled with.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Video showcasing effective anti-Luma moves for the entire cast. (Not mine, I'm just the messenger.) One thing I found interesting is that Fox, Mario, Olimar, and Jigglypuff had few moves that were good for dealing with Luma, at least a full HP one.

The specific moves showcased were a rather select group and the video doesn't spend a whole lot of time on the lists of alternate options. Still interesting to watch.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox not being very good at getting rid of Luma is just about as old as old news can possibly get.

 

[-Tornado-]

I'm surprised Ryu's U-Throw didn't make the cut
(not biased i promise)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

But I do get both sides of the question I asked. Heavily reliant on reads is good for closing out stocks prematurely. Better frame data makes it harder for the opponent TO REACT. Such is why Sheik sits where she does on the tier list because most of her hitboxes come out in thirteen frames or less, like Ftilt, Fair, and Uair. A video from the Beefy Smash Doods taught me that average reaction time is approximately 13 frames. Ever wonder why Zelda is bottom tier IMO? Because her F14 Up Air is easy to react to.

"But...that's not why she's bottom tier. Din's Fire leaves her helpless and Phantom Slash is only useful by the ledge for edge guarding. Those are why she's so low on the list."

Before any of you tell me anything along those lines, I am well aware of those things. This is just my possible speculation that adds on to it. Because if Zelda had a quicker Up Air, she probably would be better. And so, you have a character that has little reliance on reads (except for LKs)on every move because she isn't a hard hitter like Ike, but doesn't have the quick frame data to compensate either.

I thought she was low on the tier list because everything but like nair. dtilt, and utilt were finishers with ****ty hitboxes. Kind of like the opposite of Sheik

Also, what are you talking about she isn't a hard hitter? Everything but like 4 moves are kill moves ~120 and most moves do more than 10%

 

[meticulousboy]

I thought she was low on the tier list because everything but like nair. dtilt, and utilt were finishers with ****ty hitboxes. Kind of like the opposite of Sheik

Also, what are you talking about she isn't a hard hitter? Everything but like 4 moves are kill moves ~120 and most moves do more than 10%

That's just four moves. Ike has much more that do kill earlier than Zelda can. Ike doesn't need a sweetspot to kill on his horizontal aerials; Zelda does. So what am I talking about? Zelda isn't Bowser level of a hard hitter.

 

[blackghost]

zelda for all the precision required doesnt profit nearly as much as she should. shes a character with bad normals, bad mobility, and bad specials, bad frame data, and her sweetspots look a lot stronger than they actually are. she needs a lot of help to even appear viable.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

From what I understand Zelda's most crippling weakness is her lack of range and terrible frame data. She does hit very hard but that, good recovery, and a great standing grab range are not enough to make up for her being pretty mediocre at everything else.

Also in my opinion her flash kicks are a lot more of a weakness then a strength. If you don't sweet spot them they do 3-4 damage and are punishable on hit because their hitstun sucks so much. Unless some Zelda main is able to consistently land the flash kick every 3 fairs/bairs, you're losing much more than you're gaining.

Also, she's a bit like Roy in that she has a lot of moves that can definitely kill early, but no real safe or consistent way to do any of them. Farore's Elevator is pretty much kill or be killed and in that regard is less reliable then Rest or Finishing Touch. Her down throw to up air combo is pretty unreliable. DK's Ding Dong combo is to bowsers up throw up air as Bowser's up throw up air is as to Zelda's down throw up air. Flash kicks are not reliable, no kill throws, and phantom slash won't ever hit anyone that isn't ****ing up. To my knowledge your best ways to kill on Zelda is to just land a smash attack or a flash kick. Her up smash hits incredibly hard though I think it's a weaker, shorter ranged version of Mewtwo's up smash that's basically just as punishable (I did NOT fact check that). Her down smash won't even kill unless you get someone when they are trying to ledge snap either.

Her design isn't fundamentally flawed, like pretty much every other character in this game she is simply a patch away from being decent, but it's really unrealistic to assume we will get a patch that will buff Zelda that heavily. If you ask me we won't get any more patches anyways, though I'd love it if I was wrong about that.

 

[BunbUn129]

Zelda's biggest issues are hands down her mobility and lack of a good projectile. Those two issues are a combination that will doom any character from the start (see: Falco). Funny to see how her ninja-counterpart has an amazing projectile sitting on top of swift movement, seems like good ol' Sheik will forever enjoy her existential superiority. Having good/bad frame data and favorable/poor hitboxes matters a lot less when you can't easily get into a position to use those options in the first place.

Other characters who have problems in neutral will also generally make up for it with reward. DK and Bowser get a lot off of grabs, have high damage-per-hit, and fairly consistent KO'ing ability. While Zelda has some nice low % combos off tilts, d throw, and nair, and good damage-per-hit, unlike them she can't KO consistently, in addition to being much lighter.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm surprised Ryu's U-Throw didn't make the cut
(not biased i promise)

Except it did. It was dthrow that didnt. Which is basically instant death to Luma. I personally have been looking into alot of stuff for stopping Luma and the match prolly isnt as bad for Ryu as I thought.

She still wins imo tho.

 

[-Tornado-]

Except it did. It was dthrow that didnt. Which is basically instant death to Luma. I personally have been looking into alot of stuff for stopping Luma and the match prolly isnt as bad for Ryu as I thought.

She still wins imo tho.

Oh crap it does
Emblem Lord with the top-tier knowledge

 

[Das Koopa]

Characters with a score of 30 or less after a 4 month period (comparatively, the highest scoring character has a score of 545.5)

(29)
(27.5)
(25)
(23.5)
(20)
(19)
(13)
(12.5)
(11.5)
(11.5)
(11)
(8)
(5.5)
(3)
(3)
(0)
(0)
(0)

Six character tend to have an excuse for a lack of representation or results at a higher level. , , and are typically seen as inferior to their counterparts ("A buff is a character switch away") and , and are all ruled differently. Brawler in particular sees more usage when custom Miis are allowed, and every result where scored point was with a non-default set. While I haven't listed it, as 1111 got 5th (?) at Hail Smash 3, however I haven't categorized it yet. I may in the future, as I have become occasionally lenient on entrant numbers if noteworthy and PR'd players are in attendance. I still maintain a strict no-sub 80 rule, however, and I will no list it if four or more character picks are unable to be inferred on a top 16.

Cutting these six characters out, you're left with:



Breaking it down further, here are the characters among these who've had top 8 success or Top 16 success at Category 3 tournies, starting with Shockwave 76 on March 16th (The first tournament officially documented on my list)


Shogun, 5th at TUS Tournament 4 .(C1)
Regi, 3rd at The Arena 2016. (C2)
Regi, 4th at ConComics 2016. (C2, tentative, not scored at the moment.)


Big D, 2nd at Battle of BC. (C1)
Big D, 7th at Northwest Majors 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Big D, 2nd at Super Smash Nets 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Come and Take it 3. (C1)
Big D, 3rd at Emerald City 3. (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Impact. (C1)


AscWolf, 5th at Avalon U-III. (C1)
John Numbers, 5th at NEW FISH. (C2)
Waveguider, 5th at Battle Arena Melbourne 8. (C2)
John Numbers, 7th at KTAR XVIII. (C2)


KID Goggles, 9th at Pound 2016 (only as secondary.) (C3)


Scarhi, 7th at Neokan Party. (C1)
FuerzaDON, 7th at ConComics 2016. (C2, tentative, not scored at the moment.)
Darkwolf, 13th at Get On My Level 2016. (C3)
Nicko, 1st at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)



Magi, 7th at Hypespotting V. (C1)
Kub4444, 5th at ConComics 2016. (C2, tentative, not scored at the moment.)


Anragon, 2nd at Neokan Party. (C1)
Hero, 4th at Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (only as secondary.) (C1)


All Might, 1st at EagleLAN (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Sethlon, 7th at TLOK 1K May. (C1)


Orso, 7th at ICARUS II. (C1)
GanontheBeast, 7th at Push More Buttons. (C1)


Seryender, 7th at Smash at Xanadu. (C1)
Biglink, 7th at Neokan Party (only as secondary.) (C1)
Hungrybox, 3rd at Divine Intervention. (C1)


Purple Guy, 7th at GotE 4 the Kids 2016. (C1)


Bluelink, 1st at ICARUS II (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Angis, 5th at Battle of BC. (C1)
Regalht, 7th at Breakout 4 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Chiroz, 7th at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)

I'm done for now and will leave it to people to extrapolate from there, but it's plainly apparent that Wii Fit Trainer has the best raw results, with 3/4 of her top 8 experiences occurring at large regionals.

I may clarify in detail later, but the majority (not all, mind you, but most) of tops here are among tournaments with lower entrant numbers or in tournies from regions that aren't demonstrated to be especially viable at higher levels of play, or a combination of the two.

 

[Megamang]

Luma's extra hitlag, combined with the fact that Rosa is not experiencing said hitlag, really really makes the difference in a lot of ways. I'd imagine it changes Ryu's aerials from safe on shield to please-grab-me-unsafe.

---

I could see Dabuz winning EVO (is he going?). He is just so good with Luma, and seems to have new technology every time I watch him. He really backed the right character in terms of a deep metagame worth fleshing out.


Anyways, can't rosa take advantage of the extra hitlag to abuse Cloud's huge aerials? I guess he is just too safe, ranged, and powerful for that to be consistent.


Also he has a charge move that isn't totally neutered by GP. I hate GP. So bad. The 'annoying' 'lame' characters usually have some powerful special that breaks traditional smash logic. Sanic has spring, Rosa has GP, moves that eliminate their archetype's weakness.

 

[meticulousboy]

From what I understand Zelda's most crippling weakness is her lack of range and terrible frame data. She does hit very hard but that, good recovery, and a great standing grab range are not enough to make up for her being pretty mediocre at everything else.

Also in my opinion her flash kicks are a lot more of a weakness then a strength. If you don't sweet spot them they do 3-4 damage and are punishable on hit because their hitstun sucks so much. Unless some Zelda main is able to consistently land the flash kick every 3 fairs/bairs, you're losing much more than you're gaining.

Also, she's a bit like Roy in that she has a lot of moves that can definitely kill early, but no real safe or consistent way to do any of them. Farore's Elevator is pretty much kill or be killed and in that regard is less reliable then Rest or Finishing Touch. Her down throw to up air combo is pretty unreliable. DK's Ding Dong combo is to bowsers up throw up air as Bowser's up throw up air is as to Zelda's down throw up air. Flash kicks are not reliable, no kill throws, and phantom slash won't ever hit anyone that isn't ****ing up. To my knowledge your best ways to kill on Zelda is to just land a smash attack or a flash kick. Her up smash hits incredibly hard though I think it's a weaker, shorter ranged version of Mewtwo's up smash that's basically just as punishable (I did NOT fact check that). Her down smash won't even kill unless you get someone when they are trying to ledge snap either.

Her design isn't fundamentally flawed, like pretty much every other character in this game she is simply a patch away from being decent, but it's really unrealistic to assume we will get a patch that will buff Zelda that heavily. If you ask me we won't get any more patches anyways, though I'd love it if I was wrong about that.

Zelda received only buffs in 1.1.5. Like for one, her Up Air does 17% instead of 15%. While I do believe that even buffing just the damage of a move does make a character place higher on the list (unless I am wrong about damage having any influence on tier list placement), that fact that she received a stronger Up Air does make her more threatening, the first active hitbox frame wasn't changed to make it harder to react to. I mean, she does have Up tilt (repeat, if applicable) to Nair at low percents, but who doesn't? Peach is heavier than Zelda, yet Peach has a useful Side B for recovery and rebound off of shields, and a useful Down B because it's an item that she can use in the neutral. Peach usmash has intangibility and can still KO even if the sourspot connects. Zelda NEEDS a sweetspot on her horizontal aerials. Zelda can't juggle with her powerful Up Air, but Peach can. The major difference: Peach's Up Air is too quick for human reaction.

 

[Yonder]

Characters with a score of 30 or less after a 4 month period (comparatively, the highest scoring character has a score of 545.5)

(29)
(27.5)
(25)
(23.5)
(20)
(19)
(13)
(12.5)
(11.5)
(11.5)
(11)
(8)
(5.5)
(3)
(3)
(0)
(0)
(0)

Six character tend to have an excuse for a lack of representation or results at a higher level. , , and are typically seen as inferior to their counterparts ("A buff is a character switch away") and , and are all ruled differently. Brawler in particular sees more usage when custom Miis are allowed, and every result where scored point was with a non-default set. While I haven't listed it, as 1111 got 5th (?) at Hail Smash 3, however I haven't categorized it yet. I may in the future, as I have become occasionally lenient on entrant numbers if noteworthy and PR'd players are in attendance. I still maintain a strict no-sub 80 rule, however, and I will no list it if four or more character picks are unable to be inferred on a top 16.

Cutting these six characters out, you're left with:



Breaking it down further, here are the characters among these who've had top 8 success or Top 16 success at Category 3 tournies, starting with Shockwave 76 on March 16th (The first tournament officially documented on my list)


Shogun, 5th at TUS Tournament 4 .(C1)
Regi, 3rd at The Arena 2016. (C2)


Big D, 2nd at Battle of BC. (C1)
Big D, 7th at Northwest Majors 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Big D, 2nd at Super Smash Nets 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Come and Take it 3. (C1)
Big D, 3rd at Emerald City 3. (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Impact. (C1)


AscWolf, 5th at Avalon U-III. (C1)
John Numbers, 5th at NEW FISH. (C2)
Waveguider, 5th at Battle Arena Melbourne 8. (C2)
John Numbers, 7th at KTAR XVIII. (C2)


KID Goggles, 9th at Pound 2016 (only as secondary.) (C3)


Scarhi, 7th at Neokan Party. (C1)
Darkwolf, 13th at Get On My Level 2016. (C3)
Nicko, 1st at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)


Magi, 7th at Hypespotting V. (C1)


Anragon, 2nd at Neokan Party. (C1)
Hero, 4th at Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (only as secondary.) (C1)


All Might, 1st at EagleLAN (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Sethlon, 7th at TLOK 1K May. (C1)


Orso, 7th at ICARUS II. (C1)
GanontheBeast, 7th at Push More Buttons. (C1)


Seryender, 7th at Smash at Xanadu. (C1)
Biglink, 7th at Neokan Party (only as secondary.) (C1)
Hungrybox, 3rd at Divine Intervention. (C1)


Purple Guy, 7th at GotE 4 the Kids 2016. (C1)


Bluelink, 1st at ICARUS II (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Angis, 5th at Battle of BC. (C1)
Regalht, 7th at Breakout 4 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Chiroz, 7th at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)

I'm done for now and will leave it to people to extrapolate from there, but it's plainly apparent that Wii Fit Trainer has the best raw results, with 3/4 of her top 8 experiences occurring at large regionals.

I may clarify in detail later, but the majority (not all, mind you, but most) of tops here are among tournaments with lower entrant numbers or in tournies from regions that aren't demonstrated to be especially viable at higher levels of play, or a combination of the two.

Spoiler

Does my heart good to see Dark Pit unused, I hate his guts and still the only character I have 0 KOs with

Realistically I mean, I thought Dark Pit's electroshock buff made him more preferred due to the superior power and angle, making him slightly preferable despite Pits better arrows. Did this change?

 

[BJN39]

Was there Zelda talk? Did someone have an opinion on Zelda?

I don't camp usually this thread but I will be watching for your shady and uninformed Zelda opinions

Her design isn't fundamentally flawed,

In the words of some gurl I know:

They pulled off the "ridiculously bad" archetype very well.

Making a frail, slow, AND underpowered "glass cannon...maybe it was a turtle?" design is inherently flawed.

And we can't expect/hope for patches to come in and save ha.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Breaking it down further, here are the characters among these who've had top 8 success or Top 16 success at Category 3 tournies, starting with Shockwave 76 on March 16th (The first tournament officially documented on my list)


Shogun, 5th at TUS Tournament 4 .(C1)
Regi, 3rd at The Arena 2016. (C2)


Big D, 2nd at Battle of BC. (C1)
Big D, 7th at Northwest Majors 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Big D, 2nd at Super Smash Nets 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Come and Take it 3. (C1)
Big D, 3rd at Emerald City 3. (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Impact. (C1)


AscWolf, 5th at Avalon U-III. (C1)
John Numbers, 5th at NEW FISH. (C2)
Waveguider, 5th at Battle Arena Melbourne 8. (C2)
John Numbers, 7th at KTAR XVIII. (C2)


KID Goggles, 9th at Pound 2016 (only as secondary.) (C3)


Scarhi, 7th at Neokan Party. (C1)
Darkwolf, 13th at Get On My Level 2016. (C3)
Nicko, 1st at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)


Magi, 7th at Hypespotting V. (C1)


Anragon, 2nd at Neokan Party. (C1)
Hero, 4th at Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (only as secondary.) (C1)


All Might, 1st at EagleLAN (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Sethlon, 7th at TLOK 1K May. (C1)


Orso, 7th at ICARUS II. (C1)
GanontheBeast, 7th at Push More Buttons. (C1)


Seryender, 7th at Smash at Xanadu. (C1)
Biglink, 7th at Neokan Party (only as secondary.) (C1)
Hungrybox, 3rd at Divine Intervention. (C1)


Purple Guy, 7th at GotE 4 the Kids 2016. (C1)


Bluelink, 1st at ICARUS II (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Angis, 5th at Battle of BC. (C1)
Regalht, 7th at Breakout 4 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Chiroz, 7th at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)

I'm done for now and will leave it to people to extrapolate from there, but it's plainly apparent that Wii Fit Trainer has the best raw results, with 3/4 of her top 8 experiences occurring at large regionals.

I may clarify in detail later, but the majority (not all, mind you, but most) of tops here are among tournaments with lower entrant numbers or in tournies from regions that aren't demonstrated to be especially viable at higher levels of play, or a combination of the two.

I think Shulk has the best results here. He's the only character that has both a tournament win and a result in a C3+ level tournament and all his results are from different players which means that player skill is somewhat unlikely to be the only major force behind his placings.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Characters with a score of 30 or less after a 4 month period (comparatively, the highest scoring character has a score of 545.5)

(29)
(27.5)
(25)
(23.5)
(20)
(19)
(13)
(12.5)
(11.5)
(11.5)
(11)
(8)
(5.5)
(3)
(3)
(0)
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Six character tend to have an excuse for a lack of representation or results at a higher level. , , and are typically seen as inferior to their counterparts ("A buff is a character switch away") and , and are all ruled differently. Brawler in particular sees more usage when custom Miis are allowed, and every result where scored point was with a non-default set. While I haven't listed it, as 1111 got 5th (?) at Hail Smash 3, however I haven't categorized it yet. I may in the future, as I have become occasionally lenient on entrant numbers if noteworthy and PR'd players are in attendance. I still maintain a strict no-sub 80 rule, however, and I will no list it if four or more character picks are unable to be inferred on a top 16.

Cutting these six characters out, you're left with:



Breaking it down further, here are the characters among these who've had top 8 success or Top 16 success at Category 3 tournies, starting with Shockwave 76 on March 16th (The first tournament officially documented on my list)


Shogun, 5th at TUS Tournament 4 .(C1)
Regi, 3rd at The Arena 2016. (C2)


Big D, 2nd at Battle of BC. (C1)
Big D, 7th at Northwest Majors 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Big D, 2nd at Super Smash Nets 8 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Come and Take it 3. (C1)
Big D, 3rd at Emerald City 3. (C1)
Whiteout, 7th at Impact. (C1)


AscWolf, 5th at Avalon U-III. (C1)
John Numbers, 5th at NEW FISH. (C2)
Waveguider, 5th at Battle Arena Melbourne 8. (C2)
John Numbers, 7th at KTAR XVIII. (C2)


KID Goggles, 9th at Pound 2016 (only as secondary.) (C3)


Scarhi, 7th at Neokan Party. (C1)
Darkwolf, 13th at Get On My Level 2016. (C3)
Nicko, 1st at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)


Magi, 7th at Hypespotting V. (C1)


Anragon, 2nd at Neokan Party. (C1)
Hero, 4th at Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (only as secondary.) (C1)


All Might, 1st at EagleLAN (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Sethlon, 7th at TLOK 1K May. (C1)


Orso, 7th at ICARUS II. (C1)
GanontheBeast, 7th at Push More Buttons. (C1)


Seryender, 7th at Smash at Xanadu. (C1)
Biglink, 7th at Neokan Party (only as secondary.) (C1)
Hungrybox, 3rd at Divine Intervention. (C1)


Purple Guy, 7th at GotE 4 the Kids 2016. (C1)


Bluelink, 1st at ICARUS II (only as secondary/tertiary.) (C1)
Angis, 5th at Battle of BC. (C1)
Regalht, 7th at Breakout 4 (only as secondary.) (C1)
Chiroz, 7th at Los Angeles Fraud Fights. (C1)

I'm done for now and will leave it to people to extrapolate from there, but it's plainly apparent that Wii Fit Trainer has the best raw results, with 3/4 of her top 8 experiences occurring at large regionals.

I may clarify in detail later, but the majority (not all, mind you, but most) of tops here are among tournaments with lower entrant numbers or in tournies from regions that aren't demonstrated to be especially viable at higher levels of play, or a combination of the two.

Your G&W main results archive is missing Regi's 4th place at ConComics 2016, a mexican tournament that happened in April 16th & 17th with 239 entrants, some of the best mexican threats as well as Ally. In addition to that, in the same tournament, FuerzaDON got 7th with Shulk as his main character, and Kub4444 got 5th with Bowser Jr. as his main, these are all important results:
Link to bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/concomics-2016/brackets/10981/3656/11810

Edit: I guess Extra's 9th place at BAM8 is fairly good too, 290 entrants, he's also a g&w main.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I think Smash players are so used to "read-based" characters being inherently disadvantaged by the various games' engines that many assume that they're inherently inferior to other types. After all, what hope does Captain Falcon in Melee have when Fox exists (insert Hax quote here)?

But it's possible for a read-based character to thrive in a fighting game. Kazunoko took Yun in Ultra Street Fighter IV to a Capcom Cup victory last year.

In Smash, I think there's a recurring belief that reads are synonymous with "swag" when in fact it can be thought of just another skill to hone. If a player or character is successfully rewarded for honing that skill, then that's a step in the right direction. We still haven't achieved it yet, but at least this version of Ganondorf is getting closer.

Ideally, I think a read-based character should be one who not only gets rewarded for successful reads through damage, but by creating further situations that give the read-based character a greater chance of further success. Let's say that two characters are in a rock-paper-scissors situation and the read-based character wins that exchange. What should happen is that either the character gets an additional option, or the opponent loses an option. And on and on it goes until the opponent is able to reset back to neutral.

USFIV Yun had tons of fairly safe options. Great ground game and his divekicks various angles were too difficult to anti-air when he mixed them up well. And once he knocked down the opponent he had great mixups including setups that were safe from wakeup reversals. He had little trouble getting in on most characters but could also play footsies when he needed. He could make great use of reads but didn't really have to rely on them to win.

Similarly, Captain Falcon in Melee doesn't have to rely on hard reads to win. His dash dance game is one of the best in the game which is an extremely low commitment tool in neutral, he has amazingly safe aerials when spaced well (and knee iirc is + on block anyway), great guaranteed combos, among other things. It's a myth that he's a hard read based character. Go watch the recent Hbox and Wizzy set and notice how Wizzy played neutral when he 3-0ed him.

I agree with your point that heavily read based characters can be viable but their reward for reads has to be quite high and it generally isn't high enough to justify all the unsafe options they have to constantly pick.

In regards to Ganon, I think he needs a complete overhaul as a character.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Except it did. It was dthrow that didnt. Which is basically instant death to Luma. I personally have been looking into alot of stuff for stopping Luma and the match prolly isnt as bad for Ryu as I thought.

She still wins imo tho.

Ryu's dthrow is quite possibly the most mystifying move in the entire game. I can't figure out for the life of me WHY SAKURAI WOULD MAKE A THROW A SHIELD BREAKER?!

Ofc this has almost no merit in a 1v1 format, but pretty hilarious/ridiculous nonetheless. Though it's application in doubles, while extremely situational, could be a great tool on an unsuspecting opponent.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You gonna lose to Sheik still.

I think Cloud does fine vs Megaman. idk why people say he loses. Personally I ALWAYS feel like I struggled far less with Cloud and didn't have to try even half as hard as I did with Ryu?

How does mewtwo do vs MM anyways.

Annnnd the best Ryu secondary is Sheik. I do not recall specifically saying Cloud was the best secondary for him, but if I did then I apologize.

Hasn't Trela destroyed every top Sheik with Ryu?

What makes you say he loses to Sheik?

Sure he loses in neutral (though I'd argue Ryu's neutral game is far from well developed and underrated) but how much does that matter when Sheik dies at like 70 from double utilt confirms without rage and will usually kill Ryu at 140+ outside of gimps? She has to outplay him in neutral almost twice as much to win and I don't think her neutral game is good enough to make up for that.

I mean it's not like Ryu is a typical heavy weight that has to commit hard and gets juggled for days. His disadvantaged state is much better than the likes of DK or Ganon but can potentially kill just as early and more reliably.

 

[HoSmash4]

Trela has only played Void in bracket.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Trela has only played Void in bracket.

He's also played Vinnie in bracket.

And Void is considered the second best Sheik in the world by most so that's pretty relevant. And it wasn't just one set either.

 

[Das Koopa]

I think Shulk has the best results here. He's the only character that has both a tournament win and a result in a C3+ level tournament and all his results are from different players which means that player skill is somewhat unlikely to be the only major force behind his placings.

Nicko winning isn't especially notable or amazing when his biggest competition comprised of players PR'd lower than him. By that metric, it's an expected result, not something on par with WFT's results in much harder scenarios/brackets.

Your G&W main results archive is missing Regi's 4th place at ConComics 2016, a mexican tournament that happened in April 16th & 17th with 239 entrants, some of the best mexican threats as well as Ally. In addition to that, in the same tournament, FuerzaDON got 7th with Shulk as his main character, and Kub4444 got 5th with Bowser Jr. as his main, these are all important results:
Link to bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/concomics-2016/brackets/10981/3656/11810

Edit: I guess Extra's 9th place at BAM8 is fairly good too, 290 entrants, he's also a g&w main.

I was actually never aware this tourney existed lol

I'll look into it more later and place it into the 1.1.5 archive when/if I can chip out the Top 16, but for now, I'll list the individual results in my post.

 

[Piipp]

Hasn't Trela destroyed every top Sheik with Ryu?

What makes you say he loses to Sheik?

Sure he loses in neutral (though I'd argue Ryu's neutral game is far from well developed and underrated) but how much does that matter when Sheik dies at like 70 from double utilt confirms without rage and will usually kill Ryu at 140+ outside of gimps? She has to outplay him in neutral almost twice as much to win and I don't think her neutral game is good enough to make up for that.

I mean it's not like Ryu is a typical heavy weight that has to commit hard and gets juggled for days. His disadvantaged state is much better than the likes of DK or Ganon but can potentially kill just as early and more reliably.

I know he's beaten Vinnie and Void, but what about ZeRo and Mr. R?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I know he's beaten Vinnie and Void, but what about ZeRo and Mr. R?

Zero doesn't use Sheik much anymore and prefers Diddy in almost all matchups. Not sure if he's ever played Mr. R in tournament.

 

[Das Koopa]

Judging by the scores/contexts, these, to me, belong highest among the group I listed:



...These are also among the 5 highest ranked by scoring, though Kirby is missing.

is kirby a secret low tier

probably

 

[JustSomeScrub]

In fact I'd argue Ryu doesn't really lose any top tier matchup terribly going off results. He might be one of the best solo mains in the game.

Sonic? Venom has taken sets off SGK including recently.

Diddy? Go watch Venom vs Zero at GOML. He got 3-0ed but every match was close and he had crucial execution errors. That easily could have been a 3-2. Sometimes upon watching a match it is obvious the character just doesn't have the tools to win at that level, that wasn't the case here.

Fox? Trela has taken multiple sets off Larry recently.

Cloud? Recently at MidWest Mayhem 4, Renegade beat Ned (who usually places really well in the region and has wins over the likes of Ally).

Not sure about Rosa, Mario or ZSS, might be lacking data.

At any rate my point is Ryu players are far from their peak and already putting up a pretty good fight versus the best players and characters in the game. Who knows how good the character will become in a few years.

 

[NairWizard]

People tunnel-vision on Ryu's potential. Sure, he has a lot of room to grow, especially in neutral, but counterplay to his neutral tools has almost just as much room to grow, and edgeguarding him is definitely possible for many good characters.

 

[MushroomKiller]

On the topic of counterplay to Ryu developing, what are some of his currenly-perceived disadvantageous match-ups? I've read and agree that he seems to lose (not terribly) to Sheik, Rosalina, and Yoshi. Anyone else?

I just don't know where to personally place the character atm. Part of me screams top 5 potential, the other clamors low top 10. Some helpful insight would go miles in clearing up my thoughts. Thank you ~

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hasn't Trela destroyed every top Sheik with Ryu?

What makes you say he loses to Sheik?

Sure he loses in neutral (though I'd argue Ryu's neutral game is far from well developed and underrated) but how much does that matter when Sheik dies at like 70 from double utilt confirms without rage and will usually kill Ryu at 140+ outside of gimps? She has to outplay him in neutral almost twice as much to win and I don't think her neutral game is good enough to make up for that.

I mean it's not like Ryu is a typical heavy weight that has to commit hard and gets juggled for days. His disadvantaged state is much better than the likes of DK or Ganon but can potentially kill just as early and more reliably.

Trela smashes stubborn people that refuse to run from him.

How the hell does Ryu get an utilt confirm on someone with such mobility and options unless THAT character messes up?

This is a serious question.

Another serious question. How can a character be top tier if they only beat one top tier really and lose to several of the most popular and they are all in the running for top 3 in the game.

This is an obvious answer. That character can not be top tier.

Ryu loses to Sonic, Diddy, Rosalina, Megaman, Yoshi and Cloud.

Those matches pretty much all Ryus agree on. Sheik could be even, but imo he loses.

Losing to Sonic, Diddy, Rosa and Cloud? And Yoshi is SUPER common.

How the hell do you lose to several top tier threats and can still be considered a national threat?

Someone explain the hype to me. I am really waiting.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman totally dictates the neutral, has good damage racking multihits, and a solid edgeguarding game based around items, bair, and his mobility which works very well vs Ryu. I think its Ryu's worst MU, but I don't have solid knowledge on Ryu's MUs vs Villager, Shiek, Cloud, and some others im probably forgetting that he doesnt like.


Edit: He can get that utilt confirm off of something that was supposed to be safe on shield-ish but got powershielded, such as an approaching fair. (Yes, you can space fair at the very tip and not get tilted for hitting a powershield, but then you aren't going to fair combo from that fair as well.)