Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

Food for thought: Bowser's frame data is worse than Link's.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser
Bowser however does have better mobility, OoS and less strict grab follow ups.

Make what you will of it :/

What exactly did you look at and compare?

 

[aεrgiα]

i was looking over the video of the things ganon could do with items, and damn, ganon could do awesome things with items (the choke shenanigans start at around 5:30).

also, while i wont say much about the whole "is the grab confirm on heavies overcentralizing" topic since i agree with trifroze in the fact that everything that needs to be said has been said and at this point its just conflicting opinions on what you consider ok and what you dont, but while thinking about it, funnily enough the two( ) heavies that do not have a grab kill confirm/option they can fish for are also the worst(i didnt include because while he doesnt have a kill confirm, he does still have a good grab game, and can,especially on stages with platforms, fish for the grab to get a kill with uthrow and rage) with d3 being the only heavy which doesnt have the strengths of a "normal" superheavy and also being the worst imo. so maybe superheavies need an overcentralizing option in this game to be viable, since nintendo doesnt seem to be willing to improve their other aspects to make them viable :/
also with this talk of ffa balancing, can someone tell me how fits into that concept? shes arguably even worse in ffas than she is in 1v1s where she at least has her strengths(since we're on that topic, ffa balancing doesnt explain balancing trends in the slightest, with the former 3 being worse in ffas than in 1v1s(and not getting properly buffed, or in the case of mk nerfed on an option which was only ever a problem in 1v1s) and the latter 3 getting buffs despite already being very strong ffa characters... no i think its safe to say they take all game modes into consideration, and id even go so far as to say 1v1s and doubles are the focus of the balance changes)

as for lucas, i was pleasantly surprised by his rise in results the last couple of weeks, although i think it needs to get A LOT more consistent to be able to put him anywhere close to high tier, though i was pleasantly surprised by xanos' play, finally a lucas that uses wavebounces, and his set vs ally was pretty close until ally got a hard read/ early kill in both sets iirc(would have to check the replays, but i think in one of the sets ally was ~110% and xanos was ~60%, and ally gets a fair off stage, and i think there was a really early kill in the other set too where ally was behind % wise and then got the early kill and went on a roll from there) so impressive stuff by him imo

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What specific mechanics about a fighting game actually make a meta offensive or defensive? Which is considered more desirable to a player vs a spectator?

 

[Smog Frog]

typically, "offensive" fighting games/characters have these traits/mechanics:
low/no commitment burst movement
reward for getting in(distinct from punishment from failure to get in)
little/no risk on attempting to get in(usually because of safe moves)
weak evasive options

while "defensive" fighting games/characters tend to have these:
a lack of low commitment moves/movement
high risk on attempting to get in
strong evasive options

and what the spectator likes is completely up to the spectator, though from watching twitch streams many like the "offensive" type of fighting game(i prefer a mix of both, a healthy amount of suspense from waiting)

 

[Rizen]

What exactly did you look at and compare?

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
vs http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser
For starting frames they are about equal but if you look at the quickest moves, Link is quicker. Link has much less endlag and landing lag. Bowser's frame 8 jumpsquat doesn't help him either.

My analysis is mobility and grabs are obviously very important. Bowser has better payoff from grabs and the ability to threaten shield breaks, which helps force grabs. Link isn't as threatening but safer. IMO Bowser is the better character but people are falling into the fear trap too much. Once people stop respecting Bowser and overwhelm him with fast attacks he won't seem so scary. Having worse endlag than Link is really saying something lol.

I'm guessing lack of MU experience helps Bowser.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I think people often tend to overlook Bowser's actual tools. They're ridiculously good for a character who was often lumped along the low tiers because of presumed 70:30 matchups against top tiers and the fact that he "can't land".. I'm not really gonna argue these two points because the former isn't even close to being true while the latter kinda is, even though Bowser has ok landing tools.

What I wanna talk about is how Bowser has some of the best ledge coverage I've ever seen in sm4sh so far, he can cover every single option you go for with a mix up of up b, dtilt, or fair. Then he actually has a relatively easy time getting off the ledge onto the stage, as opposed to DK. You can't shield on the ledge against a Bowser holding it, because he could ledge drop > dj side b, you can't not be holding shield either because he can mix it up with fair, or regular get up > up b. So how do you cover ledge options against him then? I think I've yet to figure out the answer to that question. DK on the other hand will just get trapped on the ledge, it's so much harder for him to come back onto the stage.

Then there's the fact that Bowser has jab confirms or at worst case scenarios mixups that lead any tilt, down b, or grab, and that's pretty damn good. Coupled with good anti airs (up angled ftilt, utilt, usmash), good landing coverage w/ usmash and decent mobility, and some of the best oos options.

The thing that's absurd, however, is not any of that. It's his side b. Ridiculously good command grab that comes out frame 8 in the air, 11 on the ground, that's ridiculously fast for a move that kills as early as it does. Makes you afraid to hold shield even when you're above bowser on a platform.

Honestly, bowser has the tools, I'm not sure what's stopping him from being perceived as a much better character than he's considered right now, probably the lack of representation besides this past weekend.

 

[aεrgiα]

i think the most important factor in whether a meta is defensive or offensive depends on the defensive options you have, in smash 4 shields and rolls being very good is the main reason why its considered defensive, movement options are also very important for defining the playstyle of a game, how easily can you get around zoning etc. and also, how rewarding is it when someone gets in/messes up which can work in both ways, if its more rewarding to go in, then people will, at the same time, in brawl, icies often meant a very defensive game, simply because the opponent was so scared of messing up most prefered just hanging back and hoping for the icies to mess up :/
as for what the players and viewers prefer i think what the players prefer is often what the viewers prefer since people generally watch what they play, and while im tempted to say people prefer aggressive play, street fighter is the most popular fighting game

 

[C0rvus]

I would think mostly the fact that he's Bowser. I mean, Bowser is never good. He's so flawed and in every other game he's low tier. I've mained him in Melee and Project M, so I know where he's been (RIP Whirling Fortress). Awful disadvantage and all that. And up until recently, I didn't think he had top level rep, but LordMix definitely put on quite a show. He's pretty much the ideal Bowser main, he's like a cocky villain who you don't really want to win but you know he can.

Does Bowser do well enough in any relevant matchups to warrant being considered anything higher than lower mid tier, though? I get that he's got that classic heavy comeback factor, but does he win a lot of matchups, or any that matter?

 

[Rizen]

The thing that's absurd, however, is not any of that. It's his side b. Ridiculously good command grab that comes out frame 8 in the air, 11 on the ground, that's ridiculously fast for a move that kills as early as it does. Makes you afraid to hold shield even when you're above bowser on a platform.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser
side B is 8 ground, 17 air.

 

[ArikadoSD]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser
side B is 8 ground, 17 air.

what

how did i have this horrible misconception then LOOOOOL

thanks for correcting me tho, it's evn better than I thought

 

[iVoltage]

I've played a literal ton of bowser, I think he's nearly as good as dk just without the easy kill confirm. The best pivot grab and one of the best command grabs that also kills is no joke. He has great tilts and a great jab, with above average mobility, fantastic for a heavy. He has great tools abd really abuses rage the best outside of lucario. He just needs reps. Lord mix is doing good work out there.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i think the most important factor in whether a meta is defensive or offensive depends on the defensive options you have, in smash 4 shields and rolls being very good is the main reason why its considered defensive, movement options are also very important for defining the playstyle of a game, how easily can you get around zoning etc. and also, how rewarding is it when someone gets in/messes up which can work in both ways, if its more rewarding to go in, then people will, at the same time, in brawl, icies often meant a very defensive game, simply because the opponent was so scared of messing up most prefered just hanging back and hoping for the icies to mess up :/
as for what the players and viewers prefer i think what the players prefer is often what the viewers prefer since people generally watch what they play, and while im tempted to say people prefer aggressive play, street fighter is the most popular fighting game

Not that clear-cut; smash 64 is most defensive than smash 4 (who is hardly defensive) and that's because of how strong attack, shield, mobility, and grab is between the two games.

In Smash 64, attack is by far the strongest out of all the elements, then mobility from a distance, grab, and shield. Due to attacks overpowering the other options, there's only subtle ways for you to get around a wall of hitboxes, and since death is usually in order when you mess up, it's a really patient game that puts emphasis on the player's pixel-perfect spacing game.

Smash 4 is A LOT more like melee in that it's really volatile and crazy and aggro. Shields may overpower attacks in smash 4, but grabs and the burst options to make it near-50/50 *hintMOBILITYhint*, makes it really easy to invade someone's personal space, and with the reward from grabs, it gives even more motivation to do it. Your spacing game is still important, but It's similar to melee in that you can make a small subtle mistake and they'll be all over you. That gives the action of trying to space out an opponent properly the smallest margin of error, and one that's not particularly all that rewarding, so it's not encouraging to play a brawl or 64 style in this game (hence why so many people are aggro and how it's legit hard to play a strong keepaway game).

And i would like to say, Shaya I really liked the mentioning of brawl in a positive light. Brings a warmth of fresh air in the midst of current hate.

 

[jespoke]

i was looking over the video of the things ganon could do with items, and damn, ganon could do awesome things with items (the choke shenanigans start at around 5:30).

also, while i wont say much about the whole "is the grab confirm on heavies overcentralizing" topic since i agree with trifroze in the fact that everything that needs to be said has been said and at this point its just conflicting opinions on what you consider ok and what you dont, but while thinking about it, funnily enough the two( ) heavies that do not have a grab kill confirm/option they can fish for are also the worst(i didnt include because while he doesnt have a kill confirm, he does still have a good grab game, and can,especially on stages with platforms, fish for the grab to get a kill with uthrow and rage) with d3 being the only heavy which doesnt have the strengths of a "normal" superheavy and also being the worst imo. so maybe superheavies need an overcentralizing option in this game to be viable, since nintendo doesnt seem to be willing to improve their other aspects to make them viable :/

I think that for a heavy, the opponent being scared to death of their grab is just as powerful as the followups themselves. When their shield is not a safe option to avoid the big hits, people put themselves in positions to be read more often.

 

[Jamurai]

also with this talk of ffa balancing, can someone tell me how fits into that concept? shes arguably even worse in ffas than she is in 1v1s where she at least has her strengths...

I'm pretty convinced at this point that Jigglypuff is not intended to be competitive. Just look at her specials and custom moves for starters. Her shield break thing. Her complete lack of direct buffs despite almost zero competitive presence. She is essentially a joke character, a token, a fun face of the game. She is not treated as an equal with the rest of the cast by the development team in terms of game balance. Once you see this, all bewilderment about why she's been **** for so long goes away. Her strength in Melee is a fun (?), happy accident that will not be repeated.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm pretty convinced at this point that Jigglypuff is not intended to be competitive. Just look at her specials and custom moves for starters. Her shield break thing. Her complete lack of direct buffs despite almost zero competitive presence. She is essentially a joke character, a token, a fun face of the game. She is not treated as an equal with the rest of the cast by the development team in terms of game balance. Once you see this, all bewilderment about why she's been **** for so long goes away. Her strength in Melee is a fun (?), happy accident that will not be repeated.

Actually she was good in Melee because Pichu was added. I recall hearing that Sakurai directly buffed Puff after deciding to add Pichu to the game. So Puff has mostly always been the joke character. Certainly seems to be in this game.

 

[Rizen]

Jiggs was high tier in SSB64 and Melee though.

 

[HoSmash4]

I've played a literal ton of bowser, I think he's nearly as good as dk just without the easy kill confirm. The best pivot grab and one of the best command grabs that also kills is no joke. He has great tilts and a great jab, with above average mobility, fantastic for a heavy. He has great tools abd really abuses rage the best outside of lucario. He just needs reps. Lord mix is doing good work out there.

Uthrow uair isn't easy?

Bowsers very good and has a great ground game definitely. He has trouble on the ledge and landing, but if he didn't we'd have a crazy beast.

 

[meticulousboy]

Looking at it from the perspective of the meta, it was sad to see how Jigglypuff went from top tier to bottom tier when Brawl came out. That would be like seeing Sheik become low tier in Smash 5.

 

[Jamurai]

Do excuse my lack of detailed knowledge about character viability in other games, I believe my point still makes sense though. C0rvus 's point about Puff being buffed because of Pichu's addition implies she was intentionally kept weak, until another jokey character took her place that is. It seems as though she is intentionally weak in this game as well.

Being a lightweight is usually (over)compensated for (Mewtwo, Sheik), because it's a pretty annoying weakness which you can't really work around. In Puff's case, she is the lightest in the game by far and really doesn't have much of anything in return.

 

[iVoltage]

Uthrow uair isn't easy.

It's not a kill confirm, you shouldn't ever get hit 90+.

 

[meticulousboy]

While being lightweight makes Jigglypuff less likely to be comboed, at least she has the second fastest max air speed in this game, behind Yoshi. So if you like air speed, then by all means, pick Jigglypuff.

 

[iVoltage]

While being lightweight makes Jigglypuff less likely to be comboed, at least she has the second fastest max air speed in this game, behind Yoshi. So if you like air speed, then by all means, pick Jigglypuff.

Or Yoshi if you want to win anything

 

[Shady Shaymin]

There is nothing wrong with having joke characters. Friendly disrespect is a pivotal aspect of competition, and disrespect manifests itself in smash through garbage tier characters.

The problem isn't a character like , a caricature of a bad fighter and whose existence in the game is comically pointless when is also playable. The problem is characters like ,,, who are intended to be good characters, but have fundamental design flaws that actually prevent them from working.

So when we talk about trash tiers and who should be buffed and how, we should consider how the characters were intended to play and how those concepts can be realized in a way that makes them viable and doesn't compromise any facets of their designs.

Good examples of ideal buffs imo are ,,, andfor those reasons.

 

[Greward]

Or Cloud if you want to win anything

fixed
cloud air speed with limit is insane, and he's... notably better than yoshi

 

[Vyrnx]

fixed
cloud air speed with limit is insane, and he's... notably better than yoshi

Wow. I had never really looked at his limit stats. He's the fastest in the air and about as fast as Fox on the ground. I still think Cloud mains are way too antsy to use Limit. The only drawback to holding it is not being able to use non limit specials, but his normals are so good I don't see how it matters. His mobility stats let him pressure hard at the same time his opponent is playing extra defensive.

I'm also kind of surprised nobody has mentioned ANTi's perfect pivot roll thing on his twitter. I think people are actually gonna start using it.

 

[meticulousboy]

I agree with Shady Shaymin about analyzing how characters were meant to be played. If you look at Ness, only one move was not meant to be used in one v ones: PK Flash. This move was his Neutral B since Melee, but I was told many a time that that move is a casual move. So I'm trying to figure out if that is true and only works in FFA'S.

 

[HeavyLobster]

See, this is what I mean about putting FFA balance before everything else... They considered the jab lock to be more of a problem then Dorf tanking in 1v1s. They didn't even bother with a work around.

The argument never was about wether or not being techable was better. You made that assumption somewhere.

...What strawman? There wasn't any "gotcha" either. We've been on different planets since this conversation started.

I mean they did increase the damage on Flame Choke by 3%, so you saying they didn't bother with a workaround is blatantly untrue. Also, techchasing Choke is only actually unreasonable in specific MUs where there's nothing guaranteed on a missed tech, or when they have insanely good tech rolls. Otherwise it's still pretty good.

 

[outfoxd]

I'm personally not a fan of the "bad character as an explicit joke" idea, and this is from someone that enjoys Dan Hibiki. You will always have people that are fans of the character because of how they play and it almost doesn't seem fair to them.

 

[Nobie]

There is nothing wrong with having joke characters. Friendly disrespect is a pivotal aspect of competition, and disrespect manifests itself in smash through garbage tier characters.

The problem isn't a character like , a caricature of a bad fighter and whose existence in the game is comically pointless when is also playable.

This is an odd comparison to me just because their playstyles are so drastically different compared to each other despite being mutual puff balls.

I sort of get where this is coming from, given that in Melee Kirby is seen as a poor man's Jiggs ("Fence of Pain" vs. "Wall of Pain"), but in Smash 4 their strategies are about as different as night and day.

Kirby approaches lower to the ground, using dashes and short hops to try and get in close range, where good frame data and combos allow him to work relatively well. Jigglypuff is about weaving in and out with aerials and trying to force the opponent off the ledge for an edgeguard, or to build up enough damage for a Rest KO.

 

[aεrgiα]

Vyrnx

You know when you think about stuff, and then you see a top player do it, and you're like... damn, I wish I was good.


https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4lq57w/anti_implementing_perfect_pivots_pp_rolls_into/


I will admit, the rolling aspect out of PP is pretty new and interesting to me. Pls don't learn this Diddy players.

just saying

also, no, i think there is a lot wrong with having joke characters, especially in the context of smash, where there are actually people who care about that character from their original game. i think its stupid that theres a character thats intentionally designed to be bad, especially if its a character like jiggs who actually has a moveset and character attributes which differenciate her(him?) from other characters, i mean dan in street fighter at least is just the typical shoto moveset with terribad versions, and is also an original character, so theres absolutely no reason for someone to pick him aside from wanting to play a joke character, but jiggs... rip TT_TT
Edit: to clarify, i dont like dan being a joke character, but its not as bad as jiggs being a joke character

 

[Zelder]

I'm personally not a fan of the "bad character as an explicit joke" idea, and this is from someone that enjoys Dan Hibiki. You will always have people that are fans of the character because of how they play and it almost doesn't seem fair to them.

Joke characters are tougher in Smash. Dan Hibiki is fine, because he's always been a joke, and was created explicitly for that purpose (his moveset is a sucky version of Ryu, pink gi, etc.). Bringing in a character with a fanbase and a backstory and a design, and saying, "lol you're the joke character" is a bit tougher for Smash, and a bit harder on the fans of said character.




which is why this game needs waluigi

 

[Jams.]

Pichu was actually a great choice for a joke character. Playable Pichu + Jigglypuff buffs for Smash 5. =V

@Trifroze is ZSS's dthrow -> downb ever a true 50/50, or is it just a fear read that tries to call out a panic airdodge? Also, are there any significant windows where she can't convert heavily off her grab? To my knowledge, she doesn't get too much guaranteed at very low percents (just an aerial and a juggle or stagger situation), and there is a decent percent range where uair is her only follow-up, but it won't kill.

After Momocon, I really hope the next grassroots major Smash tourney has Georgia in regional crew battles. Wrath, LordMix, TheReflexWonder, Scatt, and Fatality would probably do pretty well. SAme with Canada, instead of making Ally midwest (lol?) make him the head of a team with Holy, Alphicans, Kels, and Venom.

TFW Ontario and BC get the shaft, LOL. Oh well, at least Alberta is represented. =V
Seriously though, if a Canadian crew ever does happen, I'd personally prefer more provincial representation over a possibly more optimized roster. Players like Big D, Captain L, Blacktwins, V115, and probably more of the Ontario PR could replace some of the Montreal players, and still make a similarly strong crew.

 

[Ninety]

In fairness, nobody really gives or gave a crap about Jigglypuff outside of Smash. Well, there's always that singing puff from the anime who put everyone to sleep and drew ***** on their faces, but I rather doubt her fans were prone to rioting if she turned out to be less tham competitively viable.

 

[Solfiner]

Cloud with limit is just a tiny bit slower than Speed Shulk in the air except limit obviously doesn't have a timer. That's ridiculous.

 

[Tizio Random]

Just to put in perspective: Cloud with limit has 1.32 air speed value (Yoshi which has the fastest not counting Monado Shulk has 1.28), has 2.167 run speed (between ZSS 2.1 and Fox 2.184) with the same short hop as Sheik and with nair and uair autocanceling with it.

Spoiler

LOL

 

[outfoxd]

In fairness, nobody really gives or gave a crap about Jigglypuff outside of Smash. Well, there's always that singing puff from the anime who put everyone to sleep and drew ***** on their faces, but I rather doubt her fans were prone to rioting if she turned out to be less tham competitively viable.

I keep hearing Jiggly has a large Japanese fanbase which is why she's still in.

 

[Zelder]

I don't play Jigglypuff, I don't really know anyone who plays Jigglypuff, and I actually kind of hate playing against her, but I'd be offended if they took Jiggs out at this point. You show perfect attendance, you're basically Smash legacy at this point. Besides, if we remove her in the next game, then who is Hungrybox going to play poorly in Smash 5?

 

[LancerStaff]

also with this talk of ffa balancing, can someone tell me how fits into that concept? shes arguably even worse in ffas than she is in 1v1s where she at least has her strengths(since we're on that topic, ffa balancing doesnt explain balancing trends in the slightest, with the former 3 being worse in ffas than in 1v1s(and not getting properly buffed, or in the case of mk nerfed on an option which was only ever a problem in 1v1s) and the latter 3 getting buffs despite already being very strong ffa characters... no i think its safe to say they take all game modes into consideration, and id even go so far as to say 1v1s and doubles are the focus of the balance changes)

Puff doesn't need to challenge people head-on in a FFA. She has what's probably the best overall air mobility in the game and a superb disadvantage state. Just wait for somebody to do something stupid and Rest 'em. Rest is still punishable but significantly less so in a FFA because somebody walking up and charging an Fsmash is likely going to get punished with another charged Fsmash.

Duck Hunt's undertuned but not significantly so. Again he can take advantage of the chaos and pull things that wouldn't otherwise be possible like fishing for charged smashes (remember the range increases with charge). His recovery isn't quite as exploitable when it can be used and often gets ignored, and going for a gimp in a FFA is a good way to get gimped yourself.

I don't see why Palutena and MK suck in FFAs. Palutena's got high dash speed and Warp for getting around and avoiding things and Uair and Usmash are great at catching people whizzing by. Yeah, she's light, but she's still heavier then Marth so it's not like she's Mewtwo. MK is like Puff where he can run away the majority of a match while focusing on edgeguards and eventually fishing for Fsmashes.

Ike, Samus and Mewtwo I don't think were anything exceptional in FFAs either. Ike was garbage in every gamemode initially, and right now he still has typical heavy problems that lead to him being juggled the majority of the match. He lacks anything ridiculously powerful not stuck behind five years of startup, endlag, and sourspots. Samus generally works better in FFAs then 1v1s but I don't see anything ridiculous. Mewtwo is still probably the most frail character in the game with the combination of weight and hitbox size and some of his more impressive attributes such as his Uthrow don't work as well because of how FFAs play out.

I mean, prepatch Sheik was fair and balanced in FFAs. Most everybody makes way more sense in FFAs. Most characters still have extreme problems in 1v1s caused by what's clearly a lack of caring how they work in 1v1s... For example Rosalina is balanced for an environment where Luma is going to be dying constantly. They could of made it so Luma couldn't just fall off and make Rosaluma weaker to accommodate, but they didn't because either nobody thought of it (which I doubt), nobody thought it was a significant problem, or somebody wanted her to play just so. I'm going with the third option myself.

 

[Megamang]

Pichu being a joke character was 'canon', at least for smash, since she is a purely weak version of Pika. I mean, some attacks were stronger, but I think that played into the joke more than anything (If you're wielding a 6ft blade and a 1ft rat hits you with a 1ft electric blast, its funnier if it dramatically kills the **** outta you).


So what im saying is.


Jiggly stays weak. Add Blissey. 600 Weight, takes 1/2 damage from specials. Uthrow kills. Half of her moves heal her.

Or Wigglytuff as an air-bowser.


Everyones... happy?

 

[meticulousboy]

I don't play Jigglypuff, I don't really know anyone who plays Jigglypuff, and I actually kind of hate playing against her, but I'd be offended if they took Jiggs out at this point. You show perfect attendance, you're basically Smash legacy at this point. Besides, if we remove her in the next game, then who is Hungrybox going to play poorly in Smash 5?

Why remove one of the original 12? That Jigglypuff was in Smash 64 had to mean something.