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You do realise doing an item infinite is just asking to get hit by a charged smash right? There's more than 2 people in most normal smash matches more often than not.
Ganon's jab is fine now after the recent buffs, it's relatively safe, good damage & has fantastic range for a jab.
Yea, it definitely is a fine move rn, should of clarified that I wanted the super armor change before the buffs, but I still think up b and dowe b need more knockback on them
I hadn't watched that set yet, but yeah, he used literally all of his moves except some of his throws, got uthrow usmash once, and got no other throw combos.
Making it launch isn't a better combo throw dude. Making them in a bad position by means of forcing them to tech mixup is more profitable than getting them simply in the air.
Goodness no. That would make things *gasp* DIFFERENT.
Slip Bomb.
Flame Wave.
It's actually highly ironic.
Trifroze
, I know
Vyrnx
touched on this, but it's unfair to separate character viability and their effect on the meta when one is dependent on the other. Bowser and DK won't ever be as meta relevant as Luigi was because their weaknesses can be exposed even by mediocre players. I suppose the argument here is "if a mechanic is toxic when the character is good, it should be equally toxic if the character is bad"; however, I don't feel that guaranteed early kills off grab are inherently poor design when counterbalanced with the appropriate weaknesses, and it seems that many posters here also share that sentiment.Re: Swordsmen
Someone also made a suggestion for DK's side b to have super armor and there's a custom for that too. For a number of characters, we don't need to hope for more patches to make them more viable. We could buff them ourselves as a community with customs...but that won't happen since Sakurai made them needlessly difficult to obtain, people for whatever reason don't want to accept changing characters on their own and when they do accept it, it becomes an all or nothing which results in windkong and stallager. Dah well, one can hope that moderate custom usage will become a thing in a few years. After all, the game hasn't even been out for 2 years.
The point is that's why it was changed. Geeze.
Risk vs. reward. Remember this is Dorf's Fsmash or even a homerun bat, and I'm pretty sure he can toss the item at somebody if he's not using it.
They're never going to make it untechable again though. Either it's going to pop people up and reduce the endlag or you're going to get punished for it half the time when it launches down.
Hey, I actually paid attention to customs. Excuse me for forgetting how a useless one works.
This, plus Air Choke having 25 frames of endlag rather than 40 (sounds like a lot, but that's just a +5 advantage on the person getting up). Flame Choke is techable but has guaranteed followups, Air Choke isn't techable but lacks guaranteed followups.
Flame wave was great lol Lots of shield-heavy chars with too good rolls to punish consistently. Also the shorter, slower range actually made it better for covering standard get-up.
Wizard assault, Warlock thrust & Dark vault are useless, Flame chain might as well be useless considering there isn't a single MU where it's better than Choke (Wave at least has a good niche vs Rosa).
Even air dodging through it? The windbox shouldn't affect you if you air dodge out early enough, right?
Chain was an easy jump snipe. If people jumped away to escape pressure it was pretty much unavoidable and it sent at a totally ass angle. Also beat spindash.
It lasts way longer than an airdodge man, double airdodge could let you avoid the hit maybe but it'd still be inconsistent
Vault is a worse dark dive, and that says something.
Yea, windboxes also effect you more while you're doing specials. It pulled people in so it couldn't really be used for gimping too often, so only random stuff like this happened.The windbox was ridiculous because you could interrupt it and then suddenly you were... Places? This was one of my first smash 4 tournaments and what you see isn't just the frame rate (which was unfortunately terrible) - I was sitting there and had absolutely no idea what had happened and suddenly I was just in the blastzone. :'( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwNYUYxwx4&t=21m20s
While I've always enjoyed customs, I am maybe a little glad that I don't have to deal with this anymore.
Wait . . . are you serious?
If the jab lock isn't feasible to perform on a consistent basis (since would be most likely performed in FFA), that doesn't seem like a strong reason to add an unnecessary tech.....plus jab locks with Ganon aren't too strong and jab locks only hit 3 times. In other words, that's not a strong enough reason to Nerf one of his few true moves that put the heat on the opponent to react.
Are they? Seems like Street Fighter V's throws are all frame 5. Command throws vary of course. In context to other games, maybe Smash's grabs are faster despite actually being slower in startup. Other reason: Smash's grabs wildly vary in startup, range, recovery, and even function with the biggest example of a different grab being PAC-MAN's which has frame gaps unlike everyone else. Other than that, you just have close-range (Mario), mid-range (Yoshi), and long-range grabs (Link). Even then, they overlap like how Lucas has a tether grab, but its shorter than the others or how Melee Marth's grab might as well be a mid-range one. They also don't really have a template like Lucas has a tether grab, but his is frame 12 which is faster than pre-1.1.5 Greninja, Villager, and Yoshi's mid-range grab.
I'd rather see Ganondorf rock a Zelda jab where she has high startup, 11, but low recovery, 9. Obviously, he shouldn't be able to do this: https://youtu.be/NqtpdTyXd6Q?t=53, which technically would be impossible as Ganondorf's command throw and burst movement is much slower than Laura's not to mention his jab would still be slower than Laura's frame 3 light punch or this which is just funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjmlxRRLVI. Ganondorf's 1.1.5 jab is better compared to his pre-patch jab, but I do think it's still overlapping with his Ftilt as a hard check to push back people, especially pre-patch where it didn't do enough damage, knockback, and had similar recovery to Ftilt, pre-patch jab's 26 to Ftilt's 28, but was 2 frames faster to make up for all of that. Now, it's kind of better, especially in recovery where it has 21 recovery frames, but maybe it should be a "different move" kind of like how Marth's jab 1 was changed from being a horizontal hit to a more vertical hit. Before, Marth's jab was kind of like a weaker Ftilt that didn't do much except lead into "another Ftilt", jab 2, but after 1.0.8, jab 1's vertical angle allowed Marth to mixup with it; Marth could Ftilt, probably Utilt, and Side Smash for a mixup along with the usual immediate jab 2, delayed jab 2, or choosing to do nothing.
Das Koopa
I didn't look at Bowser in a vacuum, I criticized his gameplan. It centers around his grab the exact same way as Luigi's did: it's his best way of doing damage at low percents and his best way of killing at higher percents. It wasn't abused versus a Rosalina because she's probably the worst character to perform grab setups on due to her floatiness and Luma interrupting you.
Jams.
as well), Bowser never having the same effect on the meta as Luigi did is a brave thing to claim, especially right after a Bowser beat players like Vinnie and Void (and almost Ally) and got 4th place at a tournament that was stacked towards top 16, something Luigi hardly ever managed to do. It already proves that the character is able to do it. Meanwhile DK has been contesting top players and characters for a long time through a few notable players.
I know our reference pool is small, but looking at LordMix's matches that definitely did not seem to be the case. Hell, he got grabbed a lot more than he did the grabbing.
Surprise, surprise. DK's whole schtick from Melee onwards is that he trades some power for speed compared to other superheavies. Made no sense that almost everything he had in Brawl could hit harder than almost anything Bowser or Ganondorf could throw out. Just be glad they didn't overcompensate like they did for
.
Luigi also had top tier attack frame data to back him up in case grabbing wasn't feasible.
results are getting right now? We didn't really saw Lucas main doing the work since he came out. Or the bayonetta days. Where people though he had a good MU againts her (and I do think it's a good MU). But he has trouble with the other top tiers. But he made some awesome results in 13th and 7th. That's not very common to see from a ''mid tier'' character
Don't take this the wrong way, but I have a simple question to ask:I didn't look at Bowser in a vacuum, I criticized his gameplan. It centers around his grab the exact same way as Luigi's did: it's his best way of doing damage at low percents and his best way of killing at higher percents. It wasn't abused versus a Rosalina because she's probably the worst character to perform grab setups on due to her floatiness and Luma interrupting you.
Also (
The fact that their weaknesses are more exploitable than Luigi's might be made up for by the fact that their grab setups kill 50% earlier and that they live far longer, benefiting more from rage. They are undeniably more extreme than Luigi in both directions and we can't pretend to know how it all pans out when the characters are put into actual effect.
Either way like I said, even if this is not the case, you'd only be allowing DK and Bowser to have a super explosive and simplified gameplan because they're not that good regardless. But a character can be badly designed without being good. I once made an example that, if there's a character who has mid to low tier tools but has a 10% chance to automatically win any match as it starts, they'd be straight up cancerous to individual players in a bracket, yet they could never win any sizeable tournaments. The same way Bowser for instance might never be able to win anything big, but he can beat any player by guessing right a few times in 2-3 consecutive matches, just as he could always be beaten by anyone doing the same thing. Even if the opponent always has better odds for this, no one wants a match to be decided based on just a few exchanges per stock.
The only opposing arguments left are: "Bowser doesn't rely on grab that much" and "Bowser can't take a stock off reliably with just a few guesses", and both of them are straight up untrue. He relies on grab more than anything else because the risk reward ratio for it is completely twisted (the fact that grab isn't the only move he ever uses or even 2/3 of the moves he ever uses doesn't mean he doesn't heavily rely on grab). He can do 20-30% damage per grab easily, and he only needs 70-80% to take a stock off in most cases. For DK, this is even worse because his grab is better, he can do more damage per grab, and he kills with it earlier.
A match decided by only a few exchanges is uncompetitive. One tool being the optimal choice over all other tools in most scenarios is bad moveset design. DK and Bowser can take a stock off consistently with only 3-4 actual neutral wins. And they do most of it with one move.
Boy, you'd really hate every other fighting game.
Tweek's power was divided up and spread among the other remaining Bowser Jr. mains.what in the world is with the sudden burst of
