Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

At this point i feel like Duck Hunt got all he's gonna get from patches. That he's only gotten minor tweaks leads me to believe he's where the team wants him. There any other characters that might be like that, where they've only received minor changes at mid to low tier because they're "done"?

You don't understand how badly I want DHD to be buffed to super viable tier. He reminds me a lot of snake in a way.

On topic, how are we feeling about patches now? Are they necessary anymore?

 

[Dinoman96]

On topic, how are we feeling about patches now? Are they necessary anymore?

Of course they aren't...

Spoiler

We can mod this game now

 

[Gamegenie222]

Man they are a bunch of characters that needs tweaks here and there still.

Also falco mobility and end lag reduction on lasers along with fix of his jab 2 to rapid jab please.

 

[Nekoo]

>Roy finally get some interessting result this week
>Patch is announced

#NERFOURBOY2OP

 

[HeavyLobster]

You don't understand how badly I want DHD to be buffed to super viable tier. He reminds me a lot of snake in a way.

On topic, how are we feeling about patches now? Are they necessary anymore?

Mostly for making Bayo less polarizing and buffing the bottom 10 chars or so. Outside of that they're more of a luxury.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

May the buff gods and goddesses shine on and . Please?

Anywho, I really think patches are still necessary since if there's a character that needs to get buffed(well need is a very excessive word) but it gives them the possibility to be not low tier forever. Look at . Ike was one of the worst in the early days. Look where he's at now. Same with,, and a few others. If we didn't have patches, we'd still have pre-patch on the loose as well as pre-patch .

 

[Smog Frog]

i can say i'm fine with the balancing from the lower-mid level up. doesnt really bother me that much(probably a result of my character choice but oh well) and all changes i would ask for are personal things that shouldnt happen(e.g. nerf because holy **** that mother****ing sea urchin just turns me a bright cherry shade of red). maybe a nerf to autocancel frames? idk. the lower tiers really only need a few tweaks to become good. what kinds? idk.

 

[outfoxd]

I want DH to have a straight kill throw but he can get grabs way too easy i feel like.

 

[Tizio Random]

I'm so hype for this patch because it say "balance changes". It was a long time I haven't read this about a new update. O BOY.

EDIT: Sorry for the OT but does anybody know why my avatar is broken?

 

[Das Koopa]

I literally have a word document full of buffs for low/lower-mid tiers, but I'll keep these hopes realistic*.

: Increased air mobility, reduced startup on Bair, Ftilt, and Jab.
: Significantly reduced FAF on Laser. Don't make it like it was in Brawl, but not as trashy as it is in Smash 4. Increased his running speed a few units.
: THE GRAB
: Hoo Hah. I know it's generic and tends to be one-stop lazy solution to making characters better, but giving him a throw > punch true combo would capitalize his ground game even more and give him more options. It seriously fits the theme of his character to get more mixups and physical options. E.g. Dthrow > Ftilt, or something similar.
: Dtilt pops opponent up, allow for a few things. Maybe Dtilt > Jab > Blazer could be true or something.
: Reduced startup frames so I can complete moves before I turn into a skeleton.
: Again, I have a ton of stuff on this guy, but I hope for Nair getting damage buffs, an increase in his recovery's distance, and some extra shield damage for most of his attacks. Wouldn't fix his problems, but it's a realistic way of making him a bit better.
: everything
: Buff Phantom Knight in all regards and maybe increase the frames that Lightning Kick is active, or give her a Checkmate where throw > Lightning Kick is true at specific %. Would give her a better gameplan.

: Drastically increased air mobility. I'm tempted to say "give him hoo hah", but maybe he should be an aerial focused fighter instead, since he has really good aerials and is a dragon. I'd also argue that he should get 2 more jumps, but that's very unrealistic.

: Continue to reduce the startup on a bunch of his tilts/smashes. He has very tricky mobility, he just needs to act faster, then he won't be bad.
: Reduce startup on all of her tilts and smash attacks.
: Kill confirm on CSS ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

*realistic insofar that some of these could happen, not implying this would all happen in one patch

 

[Nekoo]

I literally have a word document full of buffs for low/lower-mid tiers, but I'll keep these hopes realistic*.
: THE GRAB

I never understood why they keep his grab visually confusing... A buff on this could be excellent.

: Dtilt pops opponent up, allow for a few things. Maybe Dtilt > Jab > Blazer could be true or something.

If this come true. And i know it won't since Corrin have it now ( Which i don't understood...) I would love it since it could give him some nice trap as D-tilt off stage>D-air or kill confirm as D-tilt>Blazer.
This would make Roy much much much better.

: Kill confirm on CSS ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

WAIT? IT DON'T KILL CONFIRM ON CSS?
My friends quit the moment i have the curser on it!

Turn on Smash>Press Start>Smash>Smash>Choose Bayo is a true 0-Death even before the match start

 

[Trifroze]

The "Online Play, Rankings etc." are generic updates that happen every week, sometimes more than once. 1.1.6 should be announced as Super Smash Bros, and it may appear a week before whatever the date is or a day before that.

Also I'm personally of the crew who thinks they'll keep putting out updates until NX and then release a complete version of Smash 4 for that console, maybe with slight extra content. They've been releasing patches within fairly consistent 2 month intervals, so it doesn't seem like they're pushing them out simply on demand, rather it seems more planned (even if there will never be Smash 4 NX).

Hoping for rage to get removed from autolinks. Would be an amazing ZSS fix - remove up b rage jank and make it connect better. Would be an amazing multi hit fix for many characters in general. Or just get rid of rage altogether and readjust knockback values on every move ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Nekoo]

But Rage is one of the few extremely useful trick for the heavyweight and Lucario...

Removing Rage is like nerfing them

 

[Trifroze]

That's why they'd need to re-adjust knockback values.

Related to the subject though I'm skeptical whether heavyweights universally benefit more from rage than lightweights. Many of them are characters with terrible recoveries who can be gimped off at much lower percents than where most high mobility + good recovery lightweights will ever die.

 

[|RK|]

But Rage is one of the few extremely useful trick for the heavyweight and Lucario...

Removing Rage is like nerfing them

I don't think rage is so problematic a feature. It makes Smash 4 very unique, and (as you said) it gives heavyweights a bit of a boost they didn't have in other games.

 

[HeavyLobster]

: Drastically increased air mobility. I'm tempted to say "give him hoo hah", but maybe he should be an aerial focused fighter instead, since he has really good aerials and is a dragon. I'd also argue that he should get 2 more jumps, but that's very unrealistic.

Zard's aerials as a whole aren't all that great. Making him into an aerial fighter doesn't really make much sense at all given his current tools. Mostly he needs his pokes to be a bit better, with less landing lag on Fair and Nair, and also less lag on Ftilt. Better range on dash/pivot grab also would help. Zard's biggest strength is his punish game, with very strong tools for catching landings, techchasing, and edgeguarding, and he just needs to be a bit stronger in neutral so he can put himself into position to take advantage of those tools. The last airspeed buff fixed whatever recovery issues he may have had before, and his problems with getting juggled have more to do with his frame, fall speed, and laggy landing options than anything else.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't think rage so problematic a feature. It makes Smash 4 very unique, and (as you said) it gives heavyweights a bit of a boost they didn't have in other games.

I don't see rage as a good or a bad thing. It's not oppressive enough to require anyone to change their gameplan to deal with it, and it's not strong enough to the point whee a character actually feels like it's being rewarded for taking damage (save for lucario). It's just a part of how smash 4 is played. Fix autolink, luma, and make lucario not have rage. GG

 

[L9999]

Anyone else also getting the feeling this is possibly going to be the final patch as well? I believe it's safe to assume that it is being released almost definitely in part due to the controversy surrounding Bayonetta, and after that they'll have effectively "cleaned up" all the DLC characters, (not inclufing the minor nerfs Bayonetta got in 1.1.5, of course.) I'm also personally hoping that some of the more overlooked yet notably flawed characters, (namely , , , , , (well, mainly his grab,) , and of course ,) will finally receive some actual notably good tuning. There are other characters that I think deserve buffs too, but for this lot to either be left with only a few QOL changes or in Dedede's case, unwarranted nerfs, would leave me with a bad taste in my mouth by the end of this game's balance cycle.

...Holy ****, I'm actually starting to look toward patches for closure. The balance team has spoiled me, maybe I should go back and play some Brawl for perspective.



To be fair, can you name one character so far that they've truly gutted? The closest cases I can think of are Luigi, Meta Knight, and Greninja directly following 1.0.4, but I think this was more due to the fact that all these characters were relatively reliant one one or two very overtuned tools as opposed to being characters with a consistently powerful kit.

I don't want to sound rude but the devs could care less about the existence of those characters.

A personal one but I want to see Lucina, Samus, and Palutena become really crazy so people stop pissing at them and putting them bottom 5 on their crappy tier lists just cause. And 1111 Miis buffs.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I want DH to have a straight kill throw but he can get grabs way too easy i feel like.

Respectfully disagree. DHD wouldn't
Be super oppressive with a kill throw. He would just be properly rewarded for winning neutral multiple times

 

[DungeonMaster]

Keep in mind the version you posted doesn't take interpolation into account. The hitboxes in practice are somewhat bigger than that. Still a lot smaller than Bayo's though.
I think the issue isn't primarily with hitboxes - it's that Samus' puts her into a freefall state and Bayo's...doesn't.

I can 100% guarantee you that if bayo didn't have 1/2 character height disjointed hitbox above her when she witch twists it would be a very very different dynamic. Samus' hurtbox is exposed above her hitboxes in Up-B which means you have to pick an choose your targets and timing. Bayo doesn't give a damn and just up-Bs whenever against anything.

 

[zeldasmash]

New Patch?

Well i'll put $3.00 on Bayo nerfs.
I'll put $1.00 on Jigglypuff/Dedede buffs.

Here's hoping that Roy gets a bit buffed though (also how about Link getting a slight mobility buff?............never gonna happen).

 

[BunbUn129]

Make Meta Knight Great Again.

Just give more damage on up smash and reduced start-up and landing lag on fair and that's all.

My dream buff: Shuttle Loop hit 1 always leads into hit 2. Plz.

inb4 he gets nerfed again

 

[Dusk Pit]

Make Meta Knight Great Again.

Just give more damage on up smash and reduced start-up and landing lag on fair and that's all.

My dream buff: Shuttle Loop hit 1 always leads into hit 2. Plz.

inb4 he gets nerfed again

MK doesn't need anything, at least not buffs. He is already a really good character.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm not counting on buffs and I don't expect any, but you never know Sakurai; Ike got buffed in 1.1.4 despite not needing them. MK hasn't been doing well in Japan since Aba dropped him so it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Ulevo]

I would rather not have the balance team make a mess they will need to clean up later for my character, thank you.

I am concerned for Cloud mains this patch.

 

[ARISTOS]

1.15 was a great meta, and will be missed.

Interested to see what they touch.

 

[Trunks159]

Well we all know 's gonna be buffed again.

 

[GeneralLedge]

According to the Nintendo.co.jp page, the patch is going to be 61MB (if I'm reading it correctly).

How large have the previous patches been in comparison? 61MB for a couple of (for the lack of a more astute term) text files seems pretty big at a glance. But I don't know how large these files usually are.

 

[Piipp]

Man they are a bunch of characters that needs tweaks here and there still.

Also falco mobility and end lag reduction on lasers along with fix of his jab 2 to rapid jab please.

Laser end lag reduction, Uair end lag reduction, and better mobility is all I ask for.

 

[Nexus Nova]

I wonder how Nintendo decides on which characters gets the buffs and which ones gets the nerfs.
I'm hoping that Yoshi doesn't get nerfed or even Mario.

It'll be sad for me since I've started to play him recently.

 

[ReroRero]

Well we all know 's gonna be buffed again.

I hope so, Rango (a great Ike player) said he really needs buffs in some areas http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-ikes-weaknesses-and-what-can-be-patched.434931/ Ryuga (one of the best Ike mains) even thinks that Ike outright sucks.

He was not as bad as the 3DS era but damn, sometimes he is really frustrating to play as.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm not really looking for much. Just the fixing of Bayonetta and some buffs to the characters that need it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If you're complaining as an Ike main, you need to try out some more characters. Ike isn't really overwhelming, but he is solid and not really lacking outside of being juggle prone.

 

[Zelder]

I hope so, Rango (a great Ike player) said he really needs buffs in some areas http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-ikes-weaknesses-and-what-can-be-patched.434931/ Ryuga (one of the best Ike mains) even thinks that Ike outright sucks.

He was not as bad as the 3DS era but damn, sometimes he is really frustrating to play as.

That list reads like someone who wants Ike to have all strengths, and no weaknesses. I mean, making him faster, making his recovery better, giving him more range, and giving him kill confirms? I think people sometimes forget that ideally, a character shouldn't be good at everything.

 

[Luco]

According to the Nintendo.co.jp page, the patch is going to be 61MB (if I'm reading it correctly).

How large have the previous patches been in comparison? 61MB for a couple of (for the lack of a more astute term) text files seems pretty big at a glance. But I don't know how large these files usually are.

Supposedly the 1.0.8 balance patch + DLC together was 1250 MB or so for comparison.

I actually don't think it'll be that big. Probably a few changes to select characters. But I could be wrong, so we'll have to see!

 

[ReroRero]

That list reads like someone who wants Ike to have all strengths, and no weaknesses. I mean, making him faster, making his recovery better, giving him more range, and giving him kill confirms? I think people sometimes forget that ideally, a character shouldn't be good at everything.

Oh yeah I agree, even the best characters in the game have weakness, the thing is, Ike can't even shine in his strenghs (his grab game get completely destroyed by rage, the Uair kill setup is not true), he rely too much on some moves making it stall, some others are so slow for no reason (like Ftilt, which is frame 13 and lost greatly kill power since patch 1.0.8). His Smash attacks and specials are average at best, useless at worst. It really saddens me to see matchs against Sheik or Diddy, where it's basically a uphill battle where getting even one grab is really too horrible.

He is mid-tier imo. Viable in tournament and good against a lot of others mid-tiers and high-tiers characters but when he fights a top tier character, it really is a struggle against to even land a single hit.

Spoiler

actually I'm kinda jealous of Cloud

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Anyone really want buffed? His grab is practically unusable and is one of those things that just desperately wants to be fixed. Give the grab some actual follow ups or a decent kill throw, just SOMETHING.

Give more startup on witch twist, more endlag on divekick, less knockback on uair, and make witch time slightly worse.

is fine, make LCS more punishable when whiffed, reduce the knockback on uair

fix luma nonsense, nerf rapid jab

And make into functional characters please

 

[HeavyLobster]

Oh yeah I agree, even the best characters in the game have weakness, the thing is, Ike can't even shine in his strenghs (his grab game get completely destroyed by rage, the Uair kill setup is not true), he rely too much on some moves making it stall, some others are so slow for no reason (like Ftilt, which is frame 13 and lost greatly kill power since patch 1.0.8). His Smash attacks and specials are average at best, useless at worst. It really saddens me to see matchs against Sheik or Diddy, where it's basically a uphill battle where getting even one grab is really too horrible.

He is mid-tier imo. Viable in tournament and good against a lot of others mid-tiers and high-tiers characters but when he fights a top tier character, it really is a struggle against to even land a single hit.

Well Sheik is designed so as to make it hard for her opponents to hit her, especially power characters, but you significantly outdamage her.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Supposedly the 1.0.8 balance patch + DLC together was 1250 MB or so for comparison.

I suppose more specifically, how large are individual character handler files, the ones we usually see after a week of speculative patch notes?

If an individual character file is, say, 10MB (which still seems sorta large but maybe there's a lot of indecipherable data in these files regarding texture and model, idk) then we could predict 6 characters getting buffed/nerfed, for example.

If character files are of variable size due to custom moves etc. then it's harder to predict, I suppose. Maybe silly of me to speculate a guessing game.

Of course, if character files are usually only about ~1MB, we'd either be seeing every character in the game tweaked, or some changes outside the realm of just "character balance", which would be neat.

Idk I suppose if the patch is tonight it's pointless to worry about it.

EDIT: Of course it occurs to me that a patch doesn't necessarily have to replace an entire file and only insert/change singular lines of data, so I might just be a moron .

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm hoping that Yoshi doesn't get nerfed or even Mario.

It'll be sad for me since I've started to play him recently.

I don't think Yoshi is on anyone's list to get nerfed or buffed, he's a relatively fair character just like the Pit bros.

Though I wouldn't mind some form of grab/throw buffs.