Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ReroRero]

For a reference, patch 1.1.5 was more than 300 mb

So I think this patch will be just a "Bayo nerf patch"

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi has some design flaws that I'd like to have fixed.

-ftilt has about as much cooldown as upsmash
- Yoshis Ledgeroll invincibility is so bad that Yoshi gets hit by moves directed at his normal get-up.
- Bair doesnt autocancel in short hop and has too much landing lag (19) in comparison to fair (17)

Thisnis what I wanted Yoshi to have fixed

 

[Das Koopa]

Hello, Das Koopa/Barnard’s Loop/Zero Destroyer here. In light of the fact that 1.1.6 is in on its way, I’ve decided to go ahead and release the tournament data for the past month and where the characters stand with the added data. I was going to wait until the end of May, but the patch could happen any day, and this will be somewhat obsolete once it releases since balance changes will force me to reset the count, as did 1.1.5’s release.

Here, you’ll find a google doc full of every tourney result documented:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z134y9JCbXApl2X14tMNrm-5-NqY6mzgCo1bHDM3V3s/edit


Naturally, this is not 100% accurate. If you have placed in one of these tournies and your result is wrong, please inform me. I use VODs, wikis, Smashboard rankings, word from attendees, etc. to figure out mains when they aren’t obvious. As a result, there is a margin of error, most apparent in the 9th-13th column.

To make up for this, the iteration I’ve created here will have a Top 8 chart, and I also addressed a request for an unweighted chart. This will allow people to discern what characters most benefit from being secondaried.

Charts:
http://i.imgur.com/ovtcbed.jpg (Top 16, Weighted)
http://i.imgur.com/pnoaeNg.jpg (Top 16, Unweighted)
http://i.imgur.com/nItvDUs.jpg (Top 8, Weighted)

Noteworthy changes from previous results, assuming both are the weighted Top 16 chart:
-"Other" is up 4.7%.
-Diddy Kong is up 1.4%.
-Bayonetta is down 0.8%.
-Toon Link is down 1.1%.
-Ryu is up 0.7%.
-Cloud is down 0.7%.
-Mario is down 0.7%.
-Fox is down 0.4%.
-Sheik is up 0.6%.
-Sonic is up 0.6%.

*Due to time constraints, I was unable to create an unweighted Top 8 chart, but I figure for this iteration that the Top 16 unweighted should suffice, as the biggest beneficiaries from being secondaried seem obvious.


Tier List Maker Format, for all results:

Full results in text, in google doc form:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TYThR70dZlLVBDSEtpsAAkgtpWOrGlp0z3ut1MQJBwQ/edit?usp=sharing

System:
Category 1 = 1-8 Points
Category 2 = 3-10 Points
Category 3 = 5-12 Points
Category 4 = 9-16 Points

All secondaries are at half-value in weighted charts. In the unweighted chart, secondaries and primaries share the same value. For the top 8 chart, Category 1 is 1-6 points, Category 2 3-8, etc.

As of the start of May, I became increasingly careful and more precise in my tournament cataloguing. While I had no official set of standards, now I do:

-I will attempt to avoid weeklies entirely.
-Tournaments need to have around 96 entrants minimum, 100+ preferred, and absolutely no tournaments with sub-80 entrants.

The categorical system works as follows:

Category 1: Regionals or large non-weekly locals.
Category 2: Typically, larger regionals, or regionals with several out-of-region players. 2GGT is a prime example of this.
Category 3: Majors, in which the majority of the Top 16 includes out-of-region players, not including in-region players who are top ranked worldwide.
Category 4: Supermajors, in which the entrant cap is at, above, or near 1,000 entrants and hosts a massive number of PR’d players, top-level players from multiple countries, and so on. EVO is the only slated Supermajor at the moment, but CEO, Apex, The Big House 6, and Smash Con 2 could all qualify.

Credits, many users of Smashboards: MistressRemilia, Gheb, Juddy, Nintenpro, Mario766, ZSaberLink, Yikarur, and Master Raven. There are likely more I’ve missed. I’ve had a lot of help, and users such as Juddy and Yikarur have attended or are in contact with attendees at tournies, allowing for more accurate results.

Bonus credit to reddit user wariosmustache for suggesting locations and entrant numbers to tournies, which I applied to all post-April 11th tournies, and credit to him for the unweighted graph concept. I will attempt to have a top 8 unweighted next iteration.

Assuming no more patches occur, I will post the next iteration on July 1st. I originally wanted a Quarterly system, but the rule is that I will reset after three-ish months or after every new major patch. This isn’t counting potential bugfix patches (e.g. if 1.1.7 is a bugfix that comes in two weeks, I will likely not reset.)

Past lists: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4eazzd/a_comprehensive_databased_tier_list_march/ (March 15th-April 11th)

Thank you for reading!

 

[Plain Yogurt]

: Reduced startup frames so I can complete moves before I turn into a skeleton.

From the fact that this hasn't happened yet I can only conclude that they want Shulk's startup to be his main weakness, so I don't expect this at all except for maybe dash attack. If Shulk gets anything meaningful I'd like to see either earlier FAFs, further improved landing lag, or go ahead and tack another 0.5 damage onto everything.

Actually I'd just be happy if they made FSmash's first hit unclankable (or whatever it would take to stop jabs from laughing at it) and gave USmash's first hit more hitstun so I can't be punished by frame 1 moves on hit.

 

[Jalil]

Shulks startup was an intended weakness so I don't think that should or is gonna be changed. He's a pretty well functioning character already, he just needs a few buffs here and there to make everything flow together better.

 

[HeavyLobster]

And make into functional characters please

Poor Roy is doubly dysfunctional.
In all seriousness, most of these characters are functional but bad. They work as intended, but just don't work as well as most of the rest of the cast. D3 probably needs a reworking, but most of the rest of these just need incremental improvements to what they already have(and Dorf really needs a Bayo nerf to go along with that).

 

[PK Gaming]

Shulks startup was an intended weakness so I don't think that should or is gonna be changed. He's a pretty well functioning character already, he just needs a few buffs here and there to make everything flow together better.

It's not a good weakness.

Double digit start up on all of his aerials is pretty crippling, no matter how you slice it. Shulk has been getting the "few buffs here and there" treatment since the game's inception and it hasn't helped him "break even."

 

[ReroRero]

Yeah, Shulk is a well-designed character overall but the developpement team has probably underestimated his weakness

 

[Ulevo]

Or they're smarter than you're letting on in this regard and they are not willing to give a character with that much range have solid frame and landing data.

The weakness is there because it needs to be. Shulk's design was not done properly to allow for luxuries.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi has some design flaws that I'd like to have fixed.

-ftilt has about as much cooldown as upsmash
- Yoshis Ledgeroll invincibility is so bad that Yoshi gets hit by moves directed at his normal get-up.
- Bair doesnt autocancel in short hop and has too much landing lag (19) in comparison to fair (17)

Thisnis what I wanted Yoshi to have fixed

Having a half invincible roll is a faulty design choice I will admit.

Otherwise I still think the egg toss thing with it only hitting with the eggshell is another flaw in his kit. Honestly the more I think about it, the more flaws in this character I can't count on two hands. Though it's not bad compared to some characters that would need 5 hands prolly.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Hey. This may just be some panicking in me, but no one seems to be talking about M2's potential infinite. I just wonder what the team will do the rectify that, like how they nerfed Peach to get rid of the infinite she had.

 

[GeneralLedge]

For a reference, patch 1.1.5 was more than 300 mb

So I think this patch will be just a "Bayo nerf patch"

I'll pretend I'm a knowledgeable patron and continue my fool's hunch:

300mb / 21 characters that were altered
= ~14.3 mb per file, if we assume they're all vaguely the same size.

Therefore, possibly 4 characters are getting tweaked with the coming patch. Maybe more, maybe less.

This is speculative that every character reference file is completely replaced, though. If they're patched in such a way that only particular lines of code are altered, we might see several small changes to many characters, or three or four medium changes to only a few.

 

[ReroRero]

Or they're smarter than you're letting on in this regard and they are not willing to give a character with that much range have solid frame and landing data.

The weakness is there because it needs to be. Shulk's design was not done properly to allow for luxuries.

There is a gap between a weakness that help make a character not broken and a weakness that straight up crippls a character, nobody has asked shulk to have a frame 5 Fair but something at least reasonnable. I said Ike was a little bit underwhelming but I remember now that his Fair has now almost the same range as Shulk's Fair, which is one of his attacks with longest reach. Now it's outclassed by a faster and more powerful Fair than its own.

 

[Nekoo]

I'll pretend I'm a knowledgeable patron and continue my fool's hunch:

300mb / 21 characters that were altered
= ~14.3 mb per file, if we assume they're all vaguely the same size.

Therefore, possibly 4 characters are getting tweaked with the coming patch. Maybe more, maybe less.

That... not really how does it work... a lot of those patch added music/mii costume (yeah. Especially those *******)/stages and character and future placeolder.

 

[GeneralLedge]

That... not really how does it work... a lot of those patch added music/mii costume (yeah. Especially those *******)/stages and character and future placeolder.

Did 1.1.5 add music or costumes? I'm comparing to what I think was just a balance patch.

 

[C0rvus]

Man, the game is in such a good place in 1.1.5, I really hope the devs don't do anything super silly or out there (unless it's buffing the **** out of Duck Hunt or Bowser Jr. lmao).

Patches have been pretty good so far, let's hope it keeps up.

 

[HoSmash4]

Das Koopa Not one... Dark pit. :/

 

[TurboLink]

Shulk's design is just too extreme. This is why I hate extreme characters, with extreme strengths comes extreme weaknesses/balancing choices.

 

[Nekoo]

[QUOTE="GeneralLedge, post: 21181788, member: 2960731] id 1.1.5 add music or costumes? I'm comparing to what I think was just a balance patch.[/QUOTE]

Oh my complete mistake! I totally forgot that was 1.1.4 that added the last round!

 

[Plain Yogurt]

There is a gap between a weakness that help make a character not broken and a weakness that straight up crippls a character, nobody has asked shulk to have a frame 5 Fair but something at least reasonnable. I said Ike was a little bit underwhelming but I remember now that his Fair has now almost the same range as Shulk's Fair, which is one of his attacks with longest reach. Now it's outclassed by a faster and more powerful Fair than its own.

Y'know I was just thinking about this, but then it also hit me that Shulk's FAF is a lot shorter so he can combo his fair into itself and Air Slash in Jump/Speed/sometimes vanilla and maybe that's why it's damage is lacking. Of course, that does it no favors as a spacing tool especially with it's bad autocancel. Not that it's a terrible spacing tool, but if Ike's can autocancel from short hop why can't Shulk's?

 

[C0rvus]

If we could get some Bowser Junior buffs to his jab and/or grab, then I'll start believing Vicegrip's MU chart.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Anyone really want buffed? His grab is practically unusable and is one of those things that just desperately wants to be fixed. Give the grab some actual follow ups or a decent kill throw, just SOMETHING.

Give more startup on witch twist, more endlag on divekick, less knockback on uair, and make witch time slightly worse.

is fine, make LCS more punishable when whiffed, reduce the knockback on uair

fix luma nonsense, nerf rapid jab

And make into functional characters please

I would just extend the hurtbox on her dive kick so people can challenge it as they please.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Im hoping to see some minor Pit/Dark Pit buffs. Really just make Fsmash link better, fthrow buff to end stocks easier, and maybe make the spike on dair easier to land. Possibly buff arrow speed for Dark Pit case as of now theyre still garbage in comparison to Pits.

 

[Zelder]

Here are my buff requests for Mario:

One, Mario needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever Mario's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Mario"?

 

[LancerStaff]

Im hoping to see some minor Pit/Dark Pit buffs. Really just make Fsmash link better, fthrow buff to end stocks easier, and maybe make the spike on dair easier to land. Possibly buff arrow speed for Dark Pit case as of now theyre still garbage in comparison to Pits.

Actually I tested out Fsmash a little while ago and it's incredibly consistent against most characters. There's a handful of characters who can escape beyond DI in while at point blank or DI up and out at the edge, buuut it just starts failing on Dorf and DDD with rage for some reason. Link also escapes easily with rage by simply DIing in anywhere. Really can't get more consistent then that besides removing rage (from multihits), and that'd probably be a nerf overall because it'd make the combos from Nair and falling Uair harder.

Wouldn't object to other buffs, but I don't see them happening beyond Dark Pit's arrows.

 

[Ulevo]

I would really like to see a kill confirm for Duck Hunt, the 1.1.5 changes reverted for Bowser, and for Shuttle Loop's RCO bug to be fixed, though if Nintendo's track record is anything to go by that will not likely happen.

 

[Y2Kay]

Though Mewtwo whining isn't that loud, it's still there. (I see you on twitter @KuroganeHammer )

Not gonna lie, it'd be pretty sad to see him nerfed after having this wave of success. It was a good run.

And no, Sakurai, I still haven't forgiven you for nerfing greninja! Please, continue giving me buffs to make up for your mistake. Once you give me a wave shine, I'll consider moving on

 

[outfoxd]

Actually, give DH faster uo b speed. Like, a lot.

 

[my_T]

Why would anybody think it to be a good a idea to give DHD a kill confirm? His zoning is already very good on top of him having decent mobility and a normal grab. If he had a kill confirm he would undoubtedly be oppressive in a various match-ups.

Apparently the hitboxes on his smashes are unreliable; that's the only thing i would fix/adjust.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Dark Pit arrow speed buffs make sense to me seeing that as of now theyre direct down grades to Pits default arrows. Theyre slow and laggy for little reason. Making them far faster or quicker in general gives them a better purpose imo

 

[Nekoo]

Wait. It's true that the 3ds version have an 300mb update?

I'm safe for the wii u,60mb is nothing.

But 300 for the 3ds? Gotta grab a new sd card.


Also who's ready for more kirby smashes buff? And more Marcina buff? What about 0.5% on Zelda moves?

But seriously. Last time they told us there was an update it was for the hoo-haa. Let's hope for a lot of nerf/buff.

. Let your soul fly to the moon and rest in peace bayonetta. Now let the 20FF year begins with Cloud everywhere

 

[UberMadman]

Dark Pit arrow speed buffs make sense to me seeing that as of now theyre direct down grades to Pits default arrows. Theyre slow and laggy for little reason. Making them far faster or quicker in general gives them a better purpose imo

They already GOT speed buffs that Pit's didn't get, though. It happened in 1.1.0.

 

[Strong-Arm]

The move is still slow tho, if it doesnt happen its not a big deal, but it would be wonderful if it did happen

 

[Mario766]

Yup, the 3ds update will be 325mb compared to the 61mb for the Wii U update.


Update data is stored in the SD card / microSD card that is inserted into the body . Enough free space on the SD card / microSD card to download the update data [325MB (2,600 blocks) or more ] is required. Free space " Settings" from the HOME menu → You can check from the " data management

Enjoy some Google Translate.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've got the sneaking suspicion that they announced this patch, unlike 1.1.5, because the internet has repeatedly been on a clamor about a patch because Nintendo kept performing weekly updates on their online infrastructure for about a month. They wanted to finally cut that out, and so went out and announced this one to avoid having to have suspicions of a new patch every Monday and Tuesday.

That said, and extrapolating this logic, Nintendo didn't have to make this announcement in the first place. They could have just kept quiet and let the patch out at any moment for the masses to go over and see if anything meaningful was hidden inside.

They knew the fanbase was eager for balance adjustments based on the reactions everyone had with the weekly maintainences, and so announced this patch confirming that such a thing was happening.



I'm expecting a big meta changer with this patch.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I hope its a huge meta changer, those are the most delightful kind of patches.

 

[Trunks159]

Wait. It's true that the 3ds version have an 300mb update?

I'm safe for the wii u,60mb is nothing.

But 300 for the 3ds? Gotta grab a new sd card.


Also who's ready for more kirby smashes buff? And more Marcina buff? What about 0.5% on Zelda moves?

But seriously. Last time they told us there was an update it was for the hoo-haa. Let's hope for a lot of nerf/buff.

. Let your soul fly to the moon and rest in peace bayonetta. Now let the 20FF year begins with Cloud everywhere

I'm expecting some nerfs as well. Uair to 10-11%, Lim Cross Slash kbg/bkb reduction, things like that.

 

[Pudgetalks]

There are 8 tournies I'm documenting this weekend. Here are the Top 16 results for each, compiled:


Battle Arena Melbourne 8 (May 13th-15th) (Australia) (260 Entrants) (Category 2)

Spoiler

1st: Mr. R
2nd: Abadango ,
3rd: 9B
4th: Umeki
5th: Waveguider ,
5th: Ghostbone , ,
7th: Jaice , , ,
7th: Jezmo
9th: Extra
9th: Earl
9th: Nikes
9th: MM
13th: Boozer
13th: Poppt1
13th: Elegant ,
13th: Duon

Hey man, that BAM8 top 16 is wrong

its
1st: Mr. R
2nd: Abadango ,
3rd: 9B
4th: Umeki
5th: Waveguider ,
5th: Ghostbone , ,
7th: Jaice , , ,
7th: Jezmo
9th: Extra
9th: Earl
9th: Nikes
9th: MM
13th: Boozer
13th: Poppt1
13th: Eternal ,
13th: Duon

 

[Mr. Johan]

Diddy item throw startup increased. Dtilt startup increased.
Luma Uair and Dair BKB decreased. Luma Jab 3 end lag increased.
Grounded Witch Twist KB angle decreased to 10 degrees. Fair 1/2 end lag increased and can only be canceled into the remaining Fair hits. ABK startup increased to match Heel Slide's.
Cloud Dair end lag increased. Nair startup increased. Limit Break duration mechanic edited to match Little Mac's KO Punch duration mechanic. Double jump and full hop height decreased.

We get something along those lines, and I think the high-tier meta would experience a huge shift. There would be other things I'd like, like Ryu's Bair not doing 15% and Fair not being the size of Sri Lanka, but those would be the big, immediately-effective changes, I would imagine.

 

[LancerStaff]

Dark Pit arrow speed buffs make sense to me seeing that as of now theyre direct down grades to Pits default arrows. Theyre slow and laggy for little reason. Making them far faster or quicker in general gives them a better purpose imo

Thing is, you can basically say the same thing when comparing Electroshock and Upperdash... The different specials are basically their defining traits.

They already GOT speed buffs that Pit's didn't get, though. It happened in 1.1.0.

Well yes, though remember they were initially slower then Pit's and did a half of a percent less then they did now. Can't remember where the extra BKB came in...

If I really wanted to buff Dark Pit's arrows I'd either give them a big damage increase or reduce the grounded endlag by five frames or so. Pit can shoot three of his arrows in the air in a useful way in the time Dark Pit can shoot two on the ground, largely rendering the extra damage moot. 3.3 x 3 is 9.9, 4.3 x 2 is 8.6.