Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

NWM is PNW players only (Cacogen, Big D, Captain L, etc)
EGLX is mostly Toronto players

Japan is where its at this weekend with Kurobura 1 and KSB 2016

What's so special about japan?

 

[juddy96]

https://gyazo.com/08305afee2a99d25f82de52fb9cca371

Kamemushi's Mega Man MU chart

 

[C0rvus]

Idk maybe having a pretty huge talent pool all condensed into a relatively small region makes for some good tournaments.

Edit: That's a very generous spread for Mega Man, but I believe most of it. With the way Scatt and Kamemushi compete, it paints a picture of a pretty capable character. My only qualm with it is that I feel like he underrates the magnitude of his bad MUs and slightly exaggerates his good ones. DK can't be a +3, can it? I feel like Mega Man is easy to Ding Dong.

Also not sure about his placement of Cloud, Falco and Diddy. And ZSS.

I do think the fact that Ganon has a better time than the other super heavies is interesting.

 

[juddy96]

https://gyazo.com/08305afee2a99d25f82de52fb9cca371

Kamemushi's Mega Man MU chart

Edit: Delet this, for some reason my computer posted this twice

 

[FallofBrawl]

That MU chart is...really optimistic

Only 5 losing MUs is kinda pushing it, though I barely know anything about Megaman

I'm glad he knows Ganon isn't 7:3 anymore because of Warlock kick buffs

 

[Appledees]

And I thought Scatt's list was really optimistic lol

That MU spread makes Megaman look like a top 10-15 character. Alot of these are really questionable like Cloud is a winning matchup but Shulk is even? Bowser being 7:3?

It could be a factor of MU inexperience or whatever cause I feel like some of these mus he has little experience with. Like are there any high level japanesse Bowser players?

 

[juddy96]

And I thought Scatt's list was really optimistic lol

That MU spread makes Megaman look like a top 10-15 character. Alot of these are really questionable like Cloud is a winning matchup but Shulk is even? Bowser being 7:3?

It could be a factor of MU inexperience or whatever cause I feel like some of these mus he has little experience with. Like are there any high level japanesse Bowser players?

HIKARU and Shu have a Bowser, KENT and Nukunuku also play Bowser

 

[sedrf]

I should clarify my previous comment ad say what notable players are at those tournies

 

[KamikazePotato]

Alot of these are really questionable like Cloud is a winning matchup but Shulk is even?

Jump and Speed Monado Arts are both very effective against zoner-type characters.

 

[C0rvus]

Ah, my bad sedrf . I would like to know who's going to be at those too. I'm not familiar with those events.

Even Kamemushi has a secondary Yoshi from what I've seen. I can see why Japan might rate Mega Man highly, as there is more than 1 that does very well, and that double Mega Man team often places well. He's definitely overselling his character a bit here. This spread seems to imply that Mega Man should be able to wall these characters with a level of consistency that I don't think is human.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I really really question Mega Man having a 7:3 advantage against Bowser.

Tough guy lets Bowser ignore lemons at all relevant percentages (well past 300%), so Mega Man basically has to play the match without them. He certainly isn't walling Bowser out just with crash bomber and metal blade. He doesn't have any short to midrange moves to throw out that trump all of Bowser's reasonable options. And unless Kamemushi has some weird gimmick up his sleeve I haven't seen, he doesn't combo or juggle Bowser to death or edge guard him for free either.

I'm not saying Mega Man doesn't have any tools to fight Bowser at all, but what this matchup boils down to is a zoning character minus his primary zoning tool against a heavy brawler grappler. Barring some crazy exploit that I've never seen before, Mega Man can't possibly win the matchup by much, if he even wins it at all.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I think the MM vs. Ike matchup is a bit overrated in MM's favor. Mega Man wins but I definitely would peg it as 55-45 instead of 60-40.

Overall the matchup chart does seem very optimistic, but there have been some Mega Men putting in real work lately so maybe they know something we don't.

 

[Megamang]

Bruh, I'm not gonna stop lemons just because you can dash through them. And If i'm standing still OR jumping, they still knock you back (and ill always be jumping the lemons if you are trying to gap close). Metal blade does 15% to you thrown. Uair is one of the best juggling tools in the game, and you can't shield a metal blade and an uair. I'd say its that bad if you let him go to a three platform stage, because bowser cannot deal with uair. EDIT: or leafstooling or dair...


I'd rather fight Cloud than Shulk tbh. His aforementioned lack of forward facing pokes that truly pressure shield really make him struggle vs leaf shield and pellets. Megaman can also gimp the **** out of him, with both leaf shield tomfoolery and dair hitting his back while he rises with climhazzard.


Shulk can be faster, vertically or horizontally (but not both) so thats annoying. Buster makes his pokes safe, and lacking a quick get off me move makes buster combos really scary. That kind of thing doesn't matter as much vs Cloud since uair plows through your feeble nair anyways.

 

[juddy96]

I should clarify my previous comment ad say what notable players are at those tournies

Oh I see.

Kurobura: Nietono, YOC, Kamemushi, Takera, Nyanko, Songun, Umeki, taranito, Yui

KSB: Pools are here http://challonge.com/users/juddy96

8 players got byes into the final bracket for doing well at designated events: KEN & Kamemushi (Umebura), Komorikiri & Nasubi (Sumabato), 9B (Karisuma), ikep (Hirosuma), Yamanyon (Shulla-bra), Earth (Pre-KVO)

 

[TheGlove]

Personally, I cant see Bowser being worse than a 6/4 at this point in the meta, but I would lean more towards 55/45 Mega's favor. Tough guy prevent liberal use of Lemons but they still are useful. Here's some Scatt vs Lord Mix
NOTE this is before the Upthrow Nerf.
https://youtu.be/WRfDkURqFwo
Scatt abuses Bowsers landing options to make opportunities many times
The fact that Bowser has a much harder time closing out Mega's stocks post nerf makes this MU much less stressful.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Megamang thanks for your thoughts on this, I was curious to hear the opinions of a MM main after seeing that proposed matchup spread.

Only the close hit of MM's nair/jab/tilt inflicts knockback on Bowser at reasonable percents, regardless of whether either character is jumping, standing, walking, or running. The mid-long range hits will still tack on a little damage, but they won't function as a zoning tool, and at lemon range MM is putting himself in Bowser's burst range. The close range hit can still be a great "get off me" move though, but it's not really a zoning tool at that range.

My experience with metal blade is that it does 10% typically if picked up and thrown, not 15%. Does that mean you are getting 3 hits with it on Bowser in one throw? Maybe if you are throwing it straight up from underneath him or something? Anyways my point wasn't that metal blade can't add on some damage or be very useful in the matchup, just that it doesn't wall Bowser out effectively.

As for MM's uair, I didn't mean to suggest MM can't juggle him at all, but I don't think MM's juggling game ruins Bowser either. It's not like Bowser can't get back down to the stage without getting totally murdered.

Like I said before, I'm not trying to make the case that MM has nothing to fight Bowser with. In most matchups you can point to things one character can do to the other. I just don't see what aspect of the matchup is so skewed in MM's favor as to justify a 7:3.

As for stages, I definitely agree that Bowser does not want to go to a 3 platform stage against MM. I don't think I would agree that Bowser just has no answer to dair though.

 

[C0rvus]

I think Bowser is one of the few characters who tends to get hit 3 times by a z-dropped Metal Blade, which is probably what that 15% is.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Oh, yeah duh I should have thought of that. It's a nice thing for Mega Man to have against Bowser, but I think it's a stretch to say that the extra 5% off z dropping metal blade on Bowser plays a big role in defining the matchup.

And just to re-iterate, I'm not trying to argue that Bowser > MM, just that I can't possibly see it being 7:3 in favor of MM.

 

[Megamang]

A soft throw will sometimes do 15%, though this was labbed very early so perhaps this has changed. Bowser has certainly been adjusted a lot, and greninja's hurtbox was moved, so maybe these things changed. Regardless, the more important thing is that it hits shield multiple times (more than 3 if zdropped) which means zdrop uair is gonna lift bowser... if he isn't shielding, glide toss metal blade -> bthrow is my BnB (22%) into uair juggles.


Just watch how Scatt learns to beat Lordmix in a set or two and it gets ugly. Mega's dashgrab being solid is really great against bowsers bad landing options, and since you're gonna land against a thrown metal blade a loooooot, or a nair, shield is inevitable.


But yea, bowser kills really hard, does a lot of damage, and has intangible limbs and tough guy. Its not 7:3 at all, actually pretty close. But I'd say megaman wins very handily at 3 platform stages, and may even lose at something like smashville where a patient bowser consistently goes to the platform for safety (though uair still shreds this).

In general, you don't want to be big vs uair. It does so much freakin damage, and often kills you for attempted escape or if Mega has rage. If you airdodge, you're gonna have a metal blade coming at you (this is a MU where i usually have metal blade in hand + leaf shield if possible, much like Cloud it is very abuse on the ground since you have throws and dodges available to you while hitboxes circle you...)


Then, again, leafstooling and dair are a real problem for bowser. Im gonna be above or below you, a little to the side, dropping blades at you and looking for a leafstool/dair/bair. I see it like CF where if you get bair'd after a double jump... you are in trouble. And this isn't hard, because you are trying to land vs uair/metal blade/ grabs + leaf shield.


Then you get bair'd and die at 50% for trying to followup. So nothing beyond 60:40, probably even closer, but probably 70:30 at just battlefield (big zones when you are gimping him anyways, his kill setup stops working if you tack on damage zoning correctly, and landing thru 3 platforms is ridiculously hard).


Lab Edit: yea, its 10%. Was thinking of another heavy I guess.

Very abuse. much tornando

 

[KamikazePotato]

Yeah I don't know about that 70-30. Pretty much every one of these MU charts has underrated heavier characters.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, the thing to say is apparently japan has a more optimization/zoning/defensive meta.

But with how they treat(ed?) ike, I agree heavies are undervalued heavily. Not that ike is super similar to super heavyweights (though not extremely dissimilar)

 

[KamikazePotato]

Ike I think has actually been treated alright...although still undervalued for sure. But usually he isn't *too* badly underrated. He's not treated like a free win at least. On the other hand, I think the super heavyweights have all been treated pretty poorly. Guys like Bowser, Donkey Kong, Charizard, and even Ganondorf are almost never given their due. Maybe DDD as well but even DDD mains think he's pretty much awful.

I don't know, I feel like a lot of people envision fighting heavier/slower characters like how Esam envisions fighting anyone with Pikachu. They go "oh, I'm faster, just don't get hit"...without really considering what happens when they do eventually get hit, which they probably will.

The focus on optimization definitely plays a part in it. If Smash Bros were played by computers instead of people, slow/heavy characters would never win. But it is played by people, so hey.

 

[wm1026]

So here is a good question. Who is the best Pokemon now? After all the patches and new results we have gotten who do you think is the best Pokemon fighter? If you were to ask me then personally I would say mewtwo and pikachu have a good claim for best. Although I can see greninja making some good points. The rest I would say go lucario then charizard then poor jiggz. Thoughts??

 

[KamikazePotato]

So here is a good question. Who is the best Pokemon now? After all the patches and new results we have gotten who do you think is the best Pokemon fighter? If you were to ask me then personally I would say mewtwo and pikachu have a good claim for best. Although I can see greninja making some good points. The rest I would say go lucario then charizard then poor jiggz. Thoughts??

A really well-played Pikachu might still be the best, but he's very hard to play properly. Mewtwo is a force that is much easier to get results with. Even if someone *is* really good with Pikachu, Mewtwo might still be better anyway.

I put Lucario and Greninja on the same level (Pikachu could very well be on their level if the doom and gloom about him turns out to be true, but I think Mewtwo is a clear half-step above them). Greninja has a lot of momentum going for him right now and has put in some good results. Lucario is talked about a lot less but he's in the same boat. I seriously dread the day that people realise that Lucario is good and an excellent counterpick to some current meta choices, his playstyle is so annoying to deal with.

Charizard is a bit underrated but could still use some more patch love. Hardly unviable after the last round of buffs, though.

I'm sure there's a Jigglypuff savant out there but for the rest of us she's pretty much garbage.

 

[Dre89]

Idk maybe having a pretty huge talent pool all condensed into a relatively small region makes for some good tournaments.

Edit: That's a very generous spread for Mega Man, but I believe most of it. With the way Scatt and Kamemushi compete, it paints a picture of a pretty capable character. My only qualm with it is that I feel like he underrates the magnitude of his bad MUs and slightly exaggerates his good ones. DK can't be a +3, can it? I feel like Mega Man is easy to Ding Dong.

Also not sure about his placement of Cloud, Falco and Diddy. And ZSS.

I do think the fact that Ganon has a better time than the other super heavies is interesting.

Don't know if this counts for much, but the best/second best Diddy in my country prefers to use his pocket DK against Megaman instead. I find it hard to believe he'd forgo his top-tier main for DK if it really was a -3.

DK is better against projectile characters than most people think because bair beats most of their kits (projectiles and melee).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Jump and Speed Monado Arts are both very effective against zoner-type characters.

so is limit, another projectile, and clouds slightly less massive disjoint
I can't help but doubt the matchup is in MMs favor, Cloud is just too fast for zoners to be that much of an issue for him and his ability to limit camp just makes it better. Aggro MM is just going to get himself juggled for days and destroyed by Cloud's kill options

 

[Megamang]

Yea, though it is nice taking bair offline with hit pellets, that isn't an easy MU by any means. Again, probably stage dependent IMO, close to even. Diddy is also a surprisingly good MU for megaman, its really easy to take the banana offline with pellets/metalblade/leaf shield. He still does really good Diddy things when he gets in, and they can both gimp eachother.


Im still surprised he would change character to DK. That doesn't seem like a much better MU, perhaps he likes being heavier? Or not needing a banana / item play against Megaman, which is hard.

(Mario is probably a more effective pocket if you just consider Megaman, so DK is probably useful elsewhere to him and its a comfort thing, is my guess)

TheGoodGuava

Cloud is gonna get Limit, so if your gameplan is 'approach cloud to prevent limit' then you're screwed. I'd prefer to camp and zone. Blade beam is alright but LCS can gimp the **** outta megaman and kill him early (like everyone) so I'd rather a cloud shoot blade beams at me. Even if it traps me and hits, its not as bad as LCS and zoning a slower character for a bit is always nice.

Every character has to deal with Cloud stuff though. I just think megaman does relatively well.

 

[juddy96]

Ike I think has actually been treated alright...although still undervalued for sure. But usually he isn't *too* badly underrated. He's not treated like a free win at least. On the other hand, I think the super heavyweights have all been treated pretty poorly. Guys like Bowser, Donkey Kong, Charizard, and even Ganondorf are almost never given their due. Maybe DDD as well but even DDD mains think he's pretty much awful.

I don't know, I feel like a lot of people envision fighting heavier/slower characters like how Esam envisions fighting anyone with Pikachu. They go "oh, I'm faster, just don't get hit"...without really considering what happens when they do eventually get hit, which they probably will.

The focus on optimization definitely plays a part in it. If Smash Bros were played by computers instead of people, slow/heavy characters would never win. But it is played by people, so hey.

DK actually has a really strong player named HIKARU in Japan that's making top 8's and top 16's lately. The other heavies don't have much representation in the country though.

 

[bc1910]

Out of the perceived similar weaknesses, ZSS has a frame 5 OoS option that has jab range on the ground, does 17% fresh and kills so OoS options aren't actually a problem for her, she just needs to know when she has a punish at her hands and when she doesn't. You could say Greninja has much safer burst so he doesn't have to stay in shield as much as ZSS since he can approach better, but purely in terms of OoS problems ZSS doesn't really share Greninja's pain.

The thing about Boost Kick is how much of a risk it is OoS. You really have to know when you're getting that punish and when you're not. Though that's something you learn/study with time. It's a great option, but as you said, Greninja's safer burst game (and better ground game in general) makes him less reliant on shielding anyway. I love Utilt OoS with ZSS too.

ZSS' rising aerial game is almost as bad as Greninja's at first glance, but she has autocancels and better aerial accel for safer air to air reads plus her falling aerials are sort of overtuned to compensate as well. Zair kind of does what Greninja's uncharged shurikens do, except zair has less range and sets up into grab / bair (or fair) 50:50s.

Greninja's falling aerials are great as well. Maybe not quite as good... but they are similar now that ZSS' Nair isn't safe on block. Bear in mind that falling Fair is a really safe kill option to just "throw out" which trades a bit of power for disjoint and very high damage (speed isn't so important in the given context of a falling aerial). Air to air, Greninja has low landing lag on everything like ZSS does (if he needs to fast fall and land), Bair is really fast with a great hitbox, and his autocancels from full hop height are fine. I think ZSS' air to air is better because of her air speed and the fact she can throw out a fast killing Bair, I just wouldn't call it significantly safer. Zair and shurikens do different things, and shurikens control more space while being easier to actually hit the opponent with. The main similarity between the moves is how well they shut down short hop approaches. The charged transcendent shuriken is a great asset too, and smart use of it can stuff any camper who lacks a reflector.

Aside from that, flip jump is a big deal like mentioned, often being a free reset to neutral from anything that isn't a true combo or very close to one. With that said though true combos and mixups like Mario's 40-60% bull**** hurt ZSS considerably more due to her lower weight.

Still, even ZSS seems to be experiencing some struggle now. She used to get a lot of stuff for free due to incorrect DI and people trying to shieldgrab her nair all the time, but now she doesn't, people are staying grounded and powershielding more, and the nerfs don't help either. How well she overcomes this counterplay remains to be seen though. I don't doubt Greninja is probably somewhere in the 15th-25th range, but I'd be surprised if he turned out to be any better than that.

I think it's a combination of nerfs + better counterplay against ZSS. She was never really a tournament fixture on the same level as Sheik though, and she still got 3rd at Pound. I agree with Greninja's placement; right now I think he's 18th. In future he could rise or fall - he does have a lot of what you'd want in a competitive main, but could he getting by on MU inexperience?

Good OoS is the big thing he lacks. Autocancels aren't important for the character because his short hop is too high to hit grounded opponents with autocancel aerials anyway. I'm honestly not so bothered about rising aerials either, considering how unsafe his would be, and the fact he can still hit short hopping characters easily if you're spacing correctly (not to mention hit them hard). His old issue of the blindspot just above his head has been helped a lot with Fair and Bair's landing lag buffs. The only characters who can really abuse it now are those with a good disjoint and autocancel on their Fair, Bair or maybe Nair (partly why Marth does well in this MU).

TheGoodGuava

Cloud is gonna get Limit, so if your gameplan is 'approach cloud to prevent limit' then you're screwed. I'd prefer to camp and zone. Blade beam is alright but LCS can gimp the **** outta megaman and kill him early (like everyone) so I'd rather a cloud shoot blade beams at me. Even if it traps me and hits, its not as bad as LCS and zoning a slower character for a bit is always nice.

Every character has to deal with Cloud stuff though. I just think megaman does relatively well.

I agree with this. You're not gonna stop Cloud from getting limit. Blindly approaching isn't the way to play this MU because Cloud counters approaches extremely well. You're much better off playing your regular game and dealing with Limit when he has it. Obviously he's amazing with Limit, but hey, that's why he's top tier. They're not easy characters to fight.

Some points on Limit though. When Cloud has limit, he's the one who has to approach. Yeah, his approaches are quite good, but the approaching character is always the one putting themselves at more risk. It only takes one mistake for him to get back thrown off the stage and often forced to waste Limit coming back if you edgeguard him effectively. Also, with Limit, he loses the ability to freely use his specials which further cements the fact that he can't force the approach at all.

 

[Megamang]

I think, in the Megaman (and probably many zoner MUs) that saving limit unless you *know* it will hit is the optimal way to play. Sure, random reads and traps are good for damage, but they often do partial damage if you get hit with the lingering one, while Cloud with more mobility is just... always better. Followups, recovering, defense, offense... AND, since he has LCS on deck you have to be way more respectful, which has an intangible impact on the game in a great way. As bc said, he is a top tier and he is hard to fight, this is a big reason why. His 'thing' happens every game, he can exert pressure by standing near (slightly weak shield -> LCS time! Though rolling can happen, i'd wait to see it consistently before I call it a viable punish), and counterplay is difficult, and he is a good character anyways and blah blah blah, we all know why Cloud is good.

BUT, he doesn't have particularly good buttons for pellets/leaf shield / defensive shielding / perfect shielding (A huge one ! Learn this!). I think he is much like ZSS honestly, for different reasons. Counterplay can make it hard for him to land any damage, and throws... meh. BUT, limit! Charging limit is scary. But the question for us to figure out in each MU, is do you approach to stifle the limit? Megaman just plucks pellets and projectiles at him, his question is always answered on how to handle Cloud and Cloud must approach.

Also something new we see Kamemushi, Scatt, and others doing.... metal blade to cover ledge options. It hits centre-out, so getting hit in your back can stage spike you.

Leafstool is having a leaf shield active, and hitting a leaf -> footstool, which is assisted by the fact their animation stops when they get hit with each leaf so unless they are mashing a button (bad for Cloud anyways) its hard to avoid.


Just clarifying some stuff if anyone didn't know.


Pivot ftilt -> 3 pellets is an amazing retreat option against short hops, and while you must give up space, you have chances to string the pellet hits into nair (which helps both knocking them away and shield safety!). THIS is why having a good ground poke is great vs Megaman, since shielding this retreat makes him lose space... but he can do it alooooot vs Cloud, safely, as Cloud awkwardly attempts a SH approach. The only thing keeping it even is Cloud's insane reward, which makes up for hitting this sequence approximately ~20 times... oof. So, its pretty easy to keep limit Cloud out, but having the threat of LCS changes everything. This is where I believe M2k is playing the MU wrong, though the attempted gimps are probably worth it, other LCS hits aren't unless they are assured, and he likes to go for them.

 

[juddy96]

Super close grand finals set at the Wednesday Chicago weekly, with the visitor Abadango, who's in town early for Midwest Mayhem 2, facing off against the rising star of Chicago, Ned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p6VpyAFyNk

 

[Trifroze]

Greninja's falling aerials are great as well. Maybe not quite as good... but they are similar now that ZSS' Nair isn't safe on block. Bear in mind that falling Fair is a really safe kill option to just "throw out" which trades a bit of power for disjoint and very high damage (speed isn't so important in the given context of a falling aerial). Air to air, Greninja has low landing lag on everything like ZSS does (if he needs to fast fall and land), Bair is really fast with a great hitbox, and his autocancels from full hop height are fine. I think ZSS' air to air is better because of her air speed and the fact she can throw out a fast killing Bair, I just wouldn't call it significantly safer. Zair and shurikens do different things, and shurikens control more space while being easier to actually hit the opponent with. The main similarity between the moves is how well they shut down short hop approaches. The charged transcendent shuriken is a great asset too, and smart use of it can stuff any camper who lacks a reflector.

ZSS' nair is still +2 vs shieldgrabs (forget if this is vs f6 or f7 shieldgrabs though, but pretty sure it's f6). Even after the damage nerf and the range nerf, it's still one of the safest falling aerials in the game both from max range and from close range, so it's definitely still safe on block.

Also, having to experience landing lag on a rising aerial often means your opponent will be able to reactively punish you for it if you went for an air to air read and instead they chose to wait or bait it out, and even if an autocancel window doesn't allow for an immediate fastfall, you can spend the extra aerial frames drifting in the air to mix up where exactly you will be by the time your opponent reacts and gets to you. When talking about Greninja and ZSS, the latter has good AC windows for uair and bair, and while Greninja's shorthop is considerably faster for rising SHFF aerials, his 12-15 frames of landing lag on the aerials which he might want to use for that makes a pretty big difference, making those actions around 6 to 9 frames slower overall depending on whether we talk about nair or fair (or bair which is inbetween).

 

[Fex13]

so is limit, another projectile, and clouds slightly less massive disjoint
I can't help but doubt the matchup is in MMs favor, Cloud is just too fast for zoners to be that much of an issue for him and his ability to limit camp just makes it better. Aggro MM is just going to get himself juggled for days and destroyed by Cloud's kill options

those (reliable) kill options are?

 

[Wtfwasthat]

I think Megaman vs Luigi is atleast 6:4 in megamans favor

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This has been bugging me since I saw the safety spreadsheet a few hours ago... This one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r2VzoeB9AHdw6c4x967VKDwLIVteGW-9S6JMnMOvwHg/edit?pref=2&pli=1#

Though I don't have the time, I'm not good with Smash math, and I'm not entirely sure about the mechanics at play, this could be a big thing against Bayonetta. Can you grab her during Bat Within frames on a roll? If not you can probably ignore this...

See, the spreadsheet notes that certain moves are so safe that you're required to dodge away or otherwise get grabbed. It loads weird on my phone and it's worded weird but Pit's Nair I believe is an example of one such move... Now if you can grab through Bat Within, then it's impossible for her to roll out of the situation. So then it'd come down to Witch Twist. Either A: It's not fast enough anyway or B: If it's patched to be slower, it definitely won't be. If you can't grab Bat Within... Well, RIP theory.

IIRC Bat Within is treated as a pseudo-counter and therefore susceptible to grabs. (Thought: What about unblockable moves like Reflect Barrier?)

 

[Scrubtorights]

Bayo seems to escape the ledge well but how well is what I want to ask. I'm not sure why I haven't really saw this talked about anywhere I went. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-skEMk4Xao Let me use a example to explain my self better.(Rain) vs 9B. At 3:58 9B ledge drops then used upward ABK. Rain shields it then chases but 9B uses bair, Rain perfect shields and tries to grab but 9B rolls away. Something similar happens again at 6:58 and again no punish with 9B using double ABK. ABK is of course a bs move that can escape juggles and the ledge but can also combo to rack up damage or worse. Something to keep in mind is that Rain could have punished both ledge escapes kind of. Rain could have jumped over the ABK while it ends and at 6:58 if Rain didn't do dash attack he could have gotten at least one hit on 9B. I'm aware that if you can only predict a move like ABK or Flip kick to punish that usually means it can't be reacted to but in that instance near the ledge it can be dealt with to a limit. Of course what I said before could be utterly wrong so what other choices does Bayo have to escape the ledge and would it be possible to stand far away from the ledge to attack Bayo?

 

[|RK|]

Another random Kirby note - Usmash is his slowest smash, but it's strong as hell and decently safe on shield when spaced.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Another random Kirby note - Usmash is his slowest smash, but it's strong as hell and decently safe on shield when spaced.

It's also disjointed and has 1 frame where the strongest attack lasts.....it's weird.

 

[G. Stache]

Well, since this thread is currently lacking a purpose, I have a question that I've always been wondering: what are the qualities of a good disadvantage state? What core things are generally valued?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Being able to ignore it.

Pretty much that.