Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

DKWill's list is a lot of

"Does this character zone/wall me out with projectiles?"

Instantly at least -1. Only exceptions being Lucario/Mewtwo. Not sure how I feel about it either

 

[C0rvus]

Definitely feel like Will is underselling his character a bit with this list. A stark contrast to every other top player list I've seen so far. I wonder what he's considering for these matchups, because DK is better than this spread makes him look.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I'm also iffy on it.

If DK struggles this much against projectile-based characters it's a wonder at all that he is placed as high as he (or Bowser) typically is. I'm more inclined to say "the mu spread list lowballs DK" than to say "DK should be lower tier."

 

[falln]

Have you played any Gunner mains that primarily use 1111? I mean I know the Rosa matchup is a badly losing one but still, not a single matchup advantage? Really? As a Gunner main find that hard to believe unless you've never played anyone haha.

my locals have both a mii gunner main and a mii swordsman main and i myself play mii brawler but if the premise of your argument is that i don't understand the character then the conversation shouldn't be worth having in the first place

 

[AEMehr]

my locals have both a mii gunner main and a mii swordsman main and i myself play mii brawler but if the premise of your argument is that i don't understand the character then the conversation shouldn't be worth having in the first place

I wasn't going to seriously say your opinion doesn't matter because you potentially knew nothing lol. The question was just a starter, I wasn't aware that there were that many more Mii Fighters here in SoCal aside from the three I know of.

I see where you're coming from though, the zoning thing is the main issue with Gunner, especially since Gunner really has no true confirms or anything like that with 50/50 1111. You need to play perfect in order to achieve victory, but that's not so different from other characters. Zero Suit follows a similar requirement, right? Granted she's still the general better character, but miss a grab and you're definitely in for a potentially rude awakening!

Still, there are a lot of fighters Gunner can cripple. Fair is so controlling in the neutral against fighters without a means to counter it (Be it through a reflector/absorber or projectiles to fight back). They even have the tools to keep others off stage for a pretty decent while and KO them while they try to make it back to boot. I find Ryu and Cloud pretty fairly even and sometimes positive matchups in Gunner's favor when things go well. Which again is kinda like Zero Suit, only Gunner doesn't have the frame data to make up for mistakes.

 

[Yonder]

So what pro player MU charts do we agree with? Esam is seen as too glorifying for Pikachu, DK Will is underselling DK...I would love to see a Mewtwo chart from Aba or a Luigi chart from Concon. I bet Aba would undersell his character, he seems like such a humble guy.

 

[Megamang]

Doesn't the pushback of fair kind of do some anti-zoning for the aggressor? If you just walk - powershield them, the gunner is being forced back while you aren't really gonna give up ground till they mix something up.


How strong is gunner's dashgrab, and what kind of stuff can he get form it? I'm still formulating an opinion on this character.


I'd say DK has a sort of pre-patch MKness to his MU spread. Sure some characters wall him out hard, and can either kill him reliably or gimp him or do ludicrous eearly damage (oh my god when you Zdrop a metal blade on DK... its bad) but he is always one advantage state from a guaranteed kill, and once you are out of Ding Dong range you are pretty much in his kill range with many other things.

I don't understand how Bowser Jr can be a worse MU than Megaman, what does he have that Mega doesn't in this MU? Maybe Karty stuff at the ledge is scary? But dair is better here. And he isn't that much heavier even. I would really like to hear a DK main or Bowjow main to justify how how BJ beats DK worse than Megaman, im curious.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't understand how Bowser Jr can be a worse MU than Megaman, what does he have that Mega doesn't in this MU? Maybe Karty stuff at the ledge is scary? But dair is better here. And he isn't that much heavier even. I would really like to hear a DK main or Bowjow main to justify how how BJ beats DK worse than Megaman, im curious.

I'm not either...

But I have to guess that its because Jr.'s projectiles hurt more when getting hit.

A stray lemon or metal blade will cause DK to flinch but he won't lose ground.

A mechakoopa or cannonball means DK has to cover space again.

My thoughts anyways.

 

[Megamang]

You can force him to move with z dropped metal blade, which can do like 30 damage if he takes it wrong, and does similar amounts of shield damage.

And he has to approach... through constant pellets. That sucks when you have a hurtbox the size of his, but to make matters worse you basically ruin his chance of doing a landing aerial if you hit a pellet while he is holding towards you (so basically pellets make it hard to land a bair specifically) since it turns him around, and he isn't gonna hit a fair. Dash attack is meh for being buffered after pellets, you should either be retreating or have hit a nair hitbox... I'm not gonna go too into the MU now.

Crash bomber can set up free aerials, which is really deadly for DK to take free Uairs. Leaf shield + Grab close range is easier to hit than most of Jr's options as it covers a bunch of stuff, and the throws do lots of damage then make him regain ground...

I mean, I know you weren't suggesting that Bowjow actually belongs there, but I'm just saying I don't think those things are the reason.


I'd really like to know the reasoning. Its probably inconsequential because a losing MU is a losing MU, and you have to outplay your opponent to win... But I don't understand how Megaman of all people is easier to deal with as a zoner than BowJow as a hybrid Zoner... whatever he is.

Bowser Junior does have a poweful juggle game, and mechakoopas used intelligently can cover ground in a unique and powerful way.


But I'd bet mega does more damage per game with his uair than Bowjow, if this MU is played optimally.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Saw a few post regarding Falco and wanted to chime in my thoughts on his major weaknesses.

His biggest weakness by far is his extremely exploitable recovery. Thanks to having no hitbox on the latter half of Falco Phantasm for no other reason than to screw him over even more from the transition from brawl, most characters will be easily able to intercept his recovery and either make him sustain an insane amount of damage or flat out kill him offstage. This weakness bites him at top level play where he simply just cannot recover safely due to how exploitable his recovery is. This really really sucks since most of Falco's reward comes from going off stage and edgeguarding the opponent.

Most of his other issues simply stem from being undertuned in A LOT of other areas. Lasers having a crapton of endlag for no reason, Dash speed being very underwhelming, frame 6 jumpsquat for no reason, being an extremely light character yet still having a gigantic hurtbox, underwhelming Knockback on his smash attacks (at least before 1.1.4) despite their high endlag, Jab being interruptible at low percents, etc. Even worse is that most of Falco's solid MUs pre-patch against characters like Bowser are pretty much disappearing due to his competition getting buffed significantly while he gets absolutely nothing.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Hmmm... while that is more stuff than I expected, it seems like you admit with good DI and knowledge of the character, they don't kill particularly well, except just landing a smash. Can he realistically set up situations to land his smashes? I think fsmash might be the best for that, as well as dsmash on rolls, since zoning would set up for both of those situations.

@san. Do you believe gunner beats any of the top 20 characters?

Gunner can also set up for kills by juggling opponents. Up smash is also good for covering rolls. I can't safely say that Gunner beats any of the top 20 since Gunner has not faced too many characters in tournament play. In addition, the matchups for Gunner are pretty volatile (I think that Mii Gunner goes pretty even with most of the top 20 but, I am not one hundred percent sure. Since Gunner beats most of the top 20 in the neutral and gets less reward than all of them in the advantage state, it is pretty tough to determine which character wins at a top level. Gunner is a character with a pretty balanced matchup spread. Gunner doesn't beat anyone too badly, but Gunner doesn't lose to anyone too badly).

To answer your most recent question, the pushback from fair doesn't help the aggressor, since Gunner doesn't always have to move backwards when using fair because the player can control Gunner's aerial momentum when using fair. The second part of your question depends on the OOS of your opponent. In most cases, the Gunner player would have to mixup his/her options in order to beat an opponent that is able to walk and perfect shield gunner's projectiles. Gunner's dashgrab doesn't have great range, but it has a pretty good speed. Gunner's reward from throws isn't that good (especially if the opponent knows the matchup), but it isn't that bad. Gunner has true combos on heavies and fastfallers at low percents with down throw to nair and up throw to up tilt. At low to mid percents Dthrow/Uthrow to nair can frame trap some characters into either jab, ftilt or charge blast depending on their weight or fall speed. Gunner can also use forward throw or back throw to charge blast or dash attack at low to mid percents if they miss the tech. At almost any percent Gunner can use down throw to up air by following/reading an opponent's DI. From around 15% to around 120% depending on character weight, Gunner can use up throw to up air by following/reading an opponent's DI.

AEMehr , Gunner has a kill confirm with the weak hit of flame pillar to charge blast and a kill setup with fair to charge blast. Fair also combos into many of Gunner's moves at low percents.

 

[Megamang]

He'd be a character that would become much more scary given even a little more mobility. The more mobility, in more important areas, the more crazy he'd become. I'd imagine he'd be very very scary around Fox's speed. Of course, that won't happen, but a small airspeed (hes a BIRD. This frustrates me even though I dislike fighting falco) improvement would make him much scarier. Maybe a walking, running, OR dash speed bump. Just one of the two is ok, both would be pretty scary tbh.

Anyways, I don't want to get into patch stuff, that always derails the thread for a few boring pages where people talk about little things they could do to make the game perfect for us, but are never going to happen so its not worth worrying about.

I can see how it would really suck to have your game require trying to hit someone offstage to get the most of your properties, but those same properties make it so if you make a bad read or just get outdodged offstage, you take more painful edgeguarding than you are able to dish out. Are Falco dittos super volatile? heh.

 

[bc1910]

dk will made a mu list

And people think DK is top 20 with a spread like this?

As always, take top player MU charts with a pinch of salt. But if not even the best DK player is being optimistic, it speaks volumes.

I would argue Sheik, Greninja and Corrin are -1 as well, or even -2 for the latter two. There's a lot of hype around DK vs Sheik and I can see it not being worse than -1, but I can't see a DK player beating Mr R. Fragile as she is, Sheik still shuts DK out when she wants to.

 

[AEMehr]

AEMehr , Gunner has a kill confirm with the weak hit of flame pillar to charge blast and a kill setup with fair to charge blast. Fair also combos into many of Gunner's moves at low percents.

If you can get a read on the DI yes. But that's basically like all of Gunner's other stuff, based on estimating what your opponent will be doing.

 

[DanGR]

Cart, mechakoopa, fair, bair. His neutral options scream "I'm feigning aggression, but I can't -actually- pressure you effectively" ...until you make a mistake or the player makes a good read on your [probably poor] reaction. Then BJr.'s advantage state can be pretty oppressive if you don't have free resets.

I don't know the DK-BJr matchup specifically, but I imagine once he's in disadvantage, DK's severe lack of landing options is especially exploitable by Jr's low upair cooldown (traps easily) + solid disjoints for beating out potential hitboxes + mechakoopa for ground coverage. Jr also has some pretty nasty ledge getup coverage- another area DK struggles immensely.

 

[Megamang]

Mega's philosophy is probably more like keep DK offstage before he even gets to the ledge with bair. At the ledge he can read a single option really hard, but I can see Bowser Jr (especially + mechakoopa) being better at ledgetrapping DK and killing effectively from it.

 

[Browny]

Someone needs to post a good tier list.

Spoiler

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

There is no longer any justifiable reason for Pikachu being higher than Mewtwo.

Mewtwo beats Pikachu in results at low, mid, high and top level player with more players getting more consistent better placings, despite him being so much more unpopular to begin with.

Also, Lucas need to go up like, a lot. Watch some Japanese Lucas', its scary.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Will's DK matchup spread looks really good. Probably the first one I have only minor qualms with.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is no longer any justifiable reason for Pikachu being higher than Mewtwo.

Mewtwo beats Pikachu in results at low, mid, high and top level player with more players getting more consistent better placings, despite him being so much more unpopular to begin with.

Also, Lucas need to go up like, a lot. Watch some Japanese Lucas', its scary.

tbh, neither of those three claims hold much water.
Mewtwo got ONE big result (against opponents who clearly didn't know the matchup) and has random "victory of the week" here and there coming from various dedicated mains like Mew^2. Even Megaman and Duckhunt have those (except the one big win tho [except Duckhunt won a Canadian major but you get the point]).

Pikachu doesn't have those because its representation is abysmally lower (and we apparently decided not to count ESAM's results).

And I don't have strong opinions of Lucas, considering its only true representative is Taiheita. I agree he has good results but then again, is one single player.

 

[Dre89]

dk will made a mu list

Not that my opinion matters, but I think DK beats Falcon, and I think he's underselling DK's ability against projectile characters.

Weaving through projectiles with bair is really good against zoners because bair beats so many things and outranges their melee moves.

Ironically, the main problem he has in these matchups is killing, because they're hard to grab and bair will be stale.

Characters like Link and Jr. are harder MUs than characters like Tink or Villager because of their longer melee range.

Jr. can run away, punish stuff on reaction Sonic-esque style, and mecha koopa denies him his ground game.

Link just punishes any approach DK makes easily thanks to his melee range and his dashgrab.

 

[Deleted member]

dk will made a mu list

Can't say this is wrong. This is one of the best MU charts I've seen if I'm honest. Though like others have said, it does make me wonder if DK really is mid-high tier if his matchups are this evened out.

Glad he had the humility to admit some poorly regarded characters beat DK, go even with him or just lose slightly rather than putting them at +3 or 65:35 like I see so many players do (though it definitely depends on the character). Kind of a reoccurring thing where since a character is considered terrible that they must hard counter them. Really annoying to see.

 

[Browny]

tbh, neither of those three claims hold much water.
Mewtwo got ONE big result (against opponents who clearly didn't know the matchup) and has random "victory of the week" here and there coming from various dedicated mains like Mew^2. Even Megaman and Duckhunt have those (except the one big win tho [except Duckhunt won a Canadian major but you get the point]).

Pikachu doesn't have those because its representation is abysmally lower (and we apparently decided not to count ESAM's results).

And I don't have strong opinions of Lucas, considering its only true representative is Taiheita. I agree he has good results but then again, is one single player.

Please

Pikachu was far more popular for a very long time than Mewtwo ever was, lets not forget a casual 8 month head start and he came in without the stigma of being forever low tier.

There comes a time when you have to ask yourself 'Why is this character who theoretically is really good, unpopular across all levels of play and has mediocre results since day 1'?

See its funny, I used to always say that Mewtwo was way better than anyone acknowledged, he just needed a top level rep. So before anyone tries to call me a hypocrite there, I wasn't going around claiming 'omg mewtwo is high tier we just dont have many players therefore we dont have results'. I believed in the theory, but wouldnt push it as fact without evidence in results. Pikachu on the other hand still continues to benefit from insane confirmation bias where people act like he IS high tier, and its up to everyone else to prove that he isnt. The burden of proof lies on the pikachu players to prove he is high tier, the status quo is dead. Since no Pikachu mains would ever accept their character isnt as good as ESAM says, The only way that will ever happen is if other characters instead prove they are better than pikachu.

And even when they do, in utterly comprehensive and undeniable fashion, people still make up excuses for pikachus poor representation and results because HE JUST HAS TO BE HIGH TIER.

 

[jespoke]

Pikachu has, and has always had, amazing 20XX theory. And most tierlists are a lot more theory-based than this thread, especially early in the games lifespan. But when even ESAM can't bring it out it is probably getting too much weight.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Please

Pikachu was far more popular for a very long time than Mewtwo ever was, lets not forget a casual 8 month head start and he came in without the stigma of being forever low tier.

There comes a time when you have to ask yourself 'Why is this character who theoretically is really good, unpopular across all levels of play and has mediocre results since day 1'?

See its funny, I used to always say that Mewtwo was way better than anyone acknowledged, he just needed a top level rep. So before anyone tries to call me a hypocrite there, I wasn't going around claiming 'omg mewtwo is high tier we just dont have many players therefore we dont have results'. I believed in the theory, but wouldnt push it as fact without evidence in results. Pikachu on the other hand still continues to benefit from insane confirmation bias where people act like he IS high tier, and its up to everyone else to prove that he isnt. The burden of proof lies on the pikachu players to prove he is high tier, the status quo is dead. Since no Pikachu mains would ever accept their character isnt as good as ESAM says, The only way that will ever happen is if other characters instead prove they are better than pikachu.

And even when they do, in utterly comprehensive and undeniable fashion, people still make up excuses for pikachus poor representation and results because HE JUST HAS TO BE HIGH TIER.

I put Pikachu right next to Mewtwo as a marginal high tier. ESAM's still done enough with the character for him to be no worse than high mid anyways. Having one or two people get some really good national results puts him roughly around Ness or Mewtwo or Toon Link or whoever, and that's roughly where he is.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Please

Pikachu was far more popular for a very long time than Mewtwo ever was, lets not forget a casual 8 month head start and he came in without the stigma of being forever low tier.

There comes a time when you have to ask yourself 'Why is this character who theoretically is really good, unpopular across all levels of play and has mediocre results since day 1'?

See its funny, I used to always say that Mewtwo was way better than anyone acknowledged, he just needed a top level rep. So before anyone tries to call me a hypocrite there, I wasn't going around claiming 'omg mewtwo is high tier we just dont have many players therefore we dont have results'. I believed in the theory, but wouldnt push it as fact without evidence in results. Pikachu on the other hand still continues to benefit from insane confirmation bias where people act like he IS high tier, and its up to everyone else to prove that he isnt. The burden of proof lies on the pikachu players to prove he is high tier, the status quo is dead. Since no Pikachu mains would ever accept their character isnt as good as ESAM says, The only way that will ever happen is if other characters instead prove they are better than pikachu.

And even when they do, in utterly comprehensive and undeniable fashion, people still make up excuses for pikachus poor representation and results because HE JUST HAS TO BE HIGH TIER.

tbh this sounds like a Reddit user arguing about atheism
That aside how could you possibly consider Pikachu any less than high tier? His biggest issue is that only one player plays him at a top level, and becuase ESAM is rather inconsistent (ranging from best in the world to sub top 20 imo) people call the character inconsistent. Despite that ESAM in terms of results is rated as the fourth best player in the world right now, solo maining the rat up until recently.

There's also a bit of a pattern I've seen, when people try and argue that Pikachu isn't high tier SOLELY BECAUSE HE THEORETICALLY HAS A HARD TIME KILLING they'll turn around and say show them results 2 sentences later

 

[teddystalin]

And people think DK is top 20 with a spread like this?

As always, take top player MU charts with a pinch of salt. But if not even the best DK player is being optimistic, it speaks volumes.

I would argue Sheik, Greninja and Corrin are -1 as well, or even -2 for the latter two. There's a lot of hype around DK vs Sheik and I can see it not being worse than -1, but I can't see a DK player beating Mr R. Fragile as she is, Sheik still shuts DK out when she wants to.

It's kind of a bad example because Will has won a set against Mr. R before... Even with an MU spread like that, DK will remain relevant as long as he spot matchup inexperience, grab it, and smack it really hard with his head. Maybe not top 20, but relevant.

 

[Djmarcus44]

If you can get a read on the DI yes. But that's basically like all of Gunner's other stuff, based on estimating what your opponent will be doing.

The weak hit of flame pillar to charge blast is a true combo. The strong hit of flame pillar to charge blast can be escaped with DI. Most fair combos aren't affected by DI since they work at low percents.

 

[Browny]

Calling ESAM inconsistent is insulting him to be honest.

The guy was one of the best in the world in brawl, highly consistent. Just like 9B.

When a world-class, national winning calibre player is regularly performing well below expectations with a certain character, saying the player is entirely at fault is blaming the wrong thing. He didn't suddenly go from one of the best players in the world, to an inconsistent disappointment when he went to bed on October 2, 2014.

 

[Nobie]

And people think DK is top 20 with a spread like this?

As always, take top player MU charts with a pinch of salt. But if not even the best DK player is being optimistic, it speaks volumes.

I would argue Sheik, Greninja and Corrin are -1 as well, or even -2 for the latter two. There's a lot of hype around DK vs Sheik and I can see it not being worse than -1, but I can't see a DK player beating Mr R. Fragile as she is, Sheik still shuts DK out when she wants to.

Keep in mind that the chart says that DK has a -1 or better matchup against 41 characters. That's a huge chunk of the cast, and that's not a bad place to be.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Calling ESAM inconsistent is insulting him to be honest.

The guy was one of the best in the world in brawl, highly consistent. Just like 9B.

When a world-class, national winning calibre player is regularly performing well below expectations with a certain character, saying the player is entirely fault is blaming the wrong thing. He didn't suddenly go from one of the best players in the world, to an inconsistent disappointment when he went to bed on the October 2, 2014.

He literally saids he doesn't play optimal pikachu. But, being inconsistent isn't a jab at him entirely; I forgot the points he made, but he made s vid about it on his channel.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

And people think DK is top 20 with a spread like this?

As always, take top player MU charts with a pinch of salt. But if not even the best DK player is being optimistic, it speaks volumes.

I would argue Sheik, Greninja and Corrin are -1 as well, or even -2 for the latter two. There's a lot of hype around DK vs Sheik and I can see it not being worse than -1, but I can't see a DK player beating Mr R. Fragile as she is, Sheik still shuts DK out when she wants to.

DKWill has beaten Mr. R in Tourney, and that was against prepatch Sheik.

You shouldnt rate characters higher just because their main happens to post a rather generous matchup spread, so the opposite shouldn't happen either.

HeavyLobster I'm sure this happens for everyone at some point, but yours is the first tier list I've seen across the entire life of the game that I have little to no problems with. Often I think people rate Shulk too highly, and ignore Samus and Link's results.

 

[bc1910]

Where did I mention prepatch? I already knew about that set. Wasn't it a LONG time ago?

I would be surprised to see DK player beating Mr R with how good he is at the moment, despite the Sheik nerfs. It could happen, and I think the MU is -1, but my point is that it's not an even MU.

Keep in mind that the chart says that DK has a -1 or better matchup against 41 characters. That's a huge chunk of the cast, and that's not a bad place to be.

Looking at the spread of high tiers around him, that's pretty bad. Really bad, actually.

At worst you're expecting top 20-ish characters to have maybe 5-10 -1 MUs with a few -2s sprinkled in. There certainly shouldn't be any -3s.

If I told you a character was -2 or worse with 17 characters would you really be impressed?

 

[Nobie]

Looking at the spread of high tiers around him, that's pretty bad. Really bad, actually.

At worst you're expecting top 20-ish characters to have maybe 5-10 -1 MUs with a few -2s sprinkled in. There certainly shouldn't be any -3s.

If I told you a character was -2 or worse with 17 characters would you really be impressed?

Relative to the entire size of the cast, sure it's fine. Also taking into account that some of those matchups are +2 or more according to DKWill, that's even better.

Some character designs are going to be polarized in their matchups. I'm more impressed with the fact that DK is able to fight so many characters consistently. He might not be HIGH high tier, and he might even be mid tier or whatever, but this is the kind of matchup spread Donkey Kongs from previous games would have dreamed of.

 

[jespoke]

Keep in mind everyone's definition of what +1, -2, etc means is vastly different. I know there are people that frequent this thread who would hesitate to call -2 at points where Will's scale says -3

 

[my_T]

guys DK is like solid mid tier at best.

Sub-par neutral because of bad approach options, bad OoS options, overall slow/laggy frame data compared to most the roster (a common trait of all the super heavies). Garbage tier disadvantage state, huge hurt-box.

He has good edge guarding tools, a lot of range, a good advantage state, good punish game, and solid kill options. Aside from his range, all of his other strengths only come into play if the opponent over-extends/makes a mistake.

and yes, DK struggles against zoning characters just like all the other super heavies; this isn't news

and Dre89 using bair to deal with zoning is risky as hell. It does beat some stuff but still loses to most disjointed attacks. It's generally not the best idea to try and break zones through aerial approaches/attacks because you lose the ability to shield. Air dodging or jumping are the only reliable defensive options for most characters; thus making it a lot easier to fall into disadvantage should you decide to approach through the air.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Calling ESAM inconsistent is insulting him to be honest.

The guy was one of the best in the world in brawl, highly consistent. Just like 9B.

When a world-class, national winning calibre player is regularly performing well below expectations with a certain character, saying the player is entirely fault is blaming the wrong thing. He didn't suddenly go from one of the best players in the world, to an inconsistent disappointment when he went to bed on the October 2, 2014.

Hes said himself that consistency is one of his issues. If he were to play 100% consistent at the top of his game I could see him being the best player in the world. There's also the fact that he seems to be put against Mario wayyyyy to often in losers bracket around 9th and ends up getting knocked out early, with Corrin to help him with that annoying MU you'll probably be seeing him in GF a lot more often, or at the very least top 8.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Calling ESAM inconsistent is insulting him to be honest.

The guy was one of the best in the world in brawl, highly consistent. Just like 9B.

When a world-class, national winning calibre player is regularly performing well below expectations with a certain character, saying the player is entirely fault is blaming the wrong thing. He didn't suddenly go from one of the best players in the world, to an inconsistent disappointment when he went to bed on the October 2, 2014.

That's because Pika has an inconsistent MU spread, like Ness and several other characters around 15th best. He can hold his own just fine against Sheik/ZSS, but doesn't want to see Mario or Ike or whoever. Most of the characters on the low end of high tier/top of high mid have generally strong MU spreads but also a couple of difficult MUs that can send them into losers bracket early, while top 5 chars are generally good no matter which character they fight.

 

[Marcbri]

And pe.ople think DK is top 20 with a spread like this?

As always, take top player MU charts with a pinch of salt. But if not even the best DK player is being optimistic, it speaks volumes.

I would argue Sheik, Greninja and Corrin are -1 as well, or even -2 for the latter two. There's a lot of hype around DK vs Sheik and I can see it not being worse than -1, but I can't see a DK player beating Mr R. Fragile as she is, Sheik still shuts DK out when she wants to.

But Will already defeated Mr.R (SSC I think) and Sheik has been nerfed now.

I feel DK will stay relevant in the meta just because of his punish, even if he loses many MUs in practice he only needs to win neutral a couple of times and he takes a stock. This makes him a volatile character that can explode or dominate pretty fast (Bowser feels similar but worse)

I also feel DKWill MU chart is a bit pesimistic or maybe he thinks of -3 as something more doable than I do. I agree with what has been said of DK beating Falcon though.

 

[Piipp]

I'm going to be extremely biased. But...Are people really saying that Roy is Bottom 10 when (without Any order) exist?

You guys are 17 Day late. April Fools is already over.

I just wanna know why you think Falco is bottom ten lol

Granted he isn't the greatest character compared to his past iterations and the things he lost, but he still isn't bottom ten by any means.

 

[Deleted member]

ZeRo released the second part of his "Best Players of Each Character" video.

- Regi
- Sol
- Scizor
- Ven
- ZeRo
- Ray Kalm
- Hyuga
- Jonny Westside
- Nairo
- Earth

All of these are pretty much on point, though I wish Purple Guy at least got an honorable mention for Zelda.