Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[falln]

falln Deviating from questions on your tier list a bit, where do you see the Rosalina meta going with respect to utilizing Luma? I noticed that Dabuz likes to keep it synced to Rosalina while you seem a bit more free with sending it out and doing more puppet-y things with it. Do you think that Luma is too vulnerable when desynced for such tactics to work in the long run, or are there enough characters that struggle to handle it? What about edgeguards and combo extensions?

i've found it to be increasingly hard to explain when i would send luma out vs when i would keep her synced. last summer i would say i was 70% untether and dabuz was 95% tether but now i would say i'm about 40% untether and he's about 25% untether. luma's mechanics change considerably so i think i just try and make the decision on what i would prefer moment to moment. imo i'm pretty good at making those decisions but it's really just having a pulse on the game flow

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcIvSvwHok&list=PLPNNsBkfHF353ZgpZAZg9E0Xsi_kNjrmd&index=1

SuperGirlKels uses her secondary Kirby against Venom's Ryu after losing game 1 and wins Lan ETS.

Lan ETS is one of the biggest Quebec tournaments, and a Kirby counterpick just won it. To add on to this, the Ryu matchup has been played at high level before with KID Goggles vs. False where KID won.

I'm not arguing if Kirby is good, but this MU does not seem that bad if two sonics have now switched to Kirby to take sets. Anyones thoughts? I know Emblem Lord was saying before how Ryu doesn't do well in the air and has to win on the ground, so maybe thats it also.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Switching topics: who do we see as the top 3 characters in the game (and why)? After the patch, we've all seemed to gather our own opinions and I'm interested on what we think.

My personal top 3 atm (not 100% on the order) is:
: Although lacking in frame data and neutral game, Bayonetta has by far the best punish game in Sm4sh currently. She can convert of a single whiff into a stock as if she belonged in Marvel vs Capcom. Her recovery is above average(which is pretty amazing by Sm4sh standards). Witch Time is by far the best counter in any Smash game which forces opponents to respect her more. Her edge guarding is also incredible and pretty underrated imo. The major thing that could hold her back is her bad grabs which could make it hard for her to directly fight shields. However she is still extremely good in the current meta game.
: Since release Cloud has been proving that he can compete with pretty much the entire cast at a competitive level. When released he was the fastest DLC character to get notable results when players such as Tweek and Komorikiri picked him up. He has range comparable to Shulk but with good frame data! Limit break is not only a charageable "KO punch" but also buffs all his specials, and gives his mobility a boost too. he is able to space all his moves very safely without much hesitance and has very strong kill moves and reliable kill set ups. His biggest weakness is by far his recovery without limit, without a double jump his chances of combing back are very low due to fact his up b does not ledge snap as well as his up only going straight up. However the limit version fixes these issues and keeps him as a solid top tier pick.
: Ever since pre-release people have had their eyes on Sheik as a potential top tier. Even in the beginning when Diddy Kong dominated the meta game with his hoo-hah there were people who debated is Sheik was truly better or at the very least the second or maybe 3rd best. Once his nerf she dominated the meta game for months. She has the most tournament use and is one of the most developed characters in the game. Recently she was nerfed taking away her reliable kill set up off of her throws making her weakness of lacking kill options all the more apparent. However she still has an incredible neutral game, some of the best frame data in the game, still has a few kill set ups, amazing edge guarding, and one of the best MU spreads in Sm4sh.

Honorable Mention:

Spoiler

: Like Sheik, Rosalina has been debated as being a top tier pick since the start. Her defensive options and wall via Luma are some of the most difficult things to deal with in Smash 4 when the character is played perfectly. Luma has insanely high knock back on so many moves, can be spaced to create innovative kill set ups, and has very high priority on moves such as jab. Her gravitational pull invalidates some characters such as and being a light weight by default makes her the best "glass canon" character in Sm4sh. The reason she misses a top 3 spot is becasue she is currently known to lose more mus than the other characters in top 3 along with a lack of heavy hitters compared to these characters.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Donkey Kong has better aerial mobility and combo breaking/landing options in up-B and nair. The disadvantage is balanced out by making his ledge options absolutely atrocious and abuse-able.

Bowser has less aerial mobility and worse landing options (he has options but they're very laggy). The disadvantaged is balanced out by making his ledge options much less atrocious and give him decent options like from ledge drop like Side-B, Fair. Or neutral getup -> grounded up b

 

[Emblem Lord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAcIvSvwHok&list=PLPNNsBkfHF353ZgpZAZg9E0Xsi_kNjrmd&index=1

SuperGirlKels uses her secondary Kirby against Venom's Ryu after losing game 1 and wins Lan ETS.

Lan ETS is one of the biggest Quebec tournaments, and a Kirby counterpick just won it. To add on to this, the Ryu matchup has been played at high level before with KID Goggles vs. False where KID won.

I'm not arguing if Kirby is good, but this MU does not seem that bad if two sonics have now switched to Kirby to take sets. Anyones thoughts? I know Emblem Lord was saying before how Ryu doesn't do well in the air and has to win on the ground, so maybe thats it also.

holy **** so much jumping into kirbys INTANGIBLE UTILT.

UGHEGBDFNGFNFGNDFNDFBNDFZBNDFB2413t34yy3qayhe5h

Gotta really tear into Brock for this **** later. wtf.

He broke a grown man's heart with this. Will Ryu mains plz think of my HEART?!!!?!?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I'm curious how many people know Kirby's Utilt, Usmash and Dsmash(for 10 frames) are intangible.

It's so funny because if you don't know THAT, then I consider that not knowing enough about the character because I think knowing that his disjointed attacks aren't beatable......sometimes is something to note, as the former 2 make for decent anti airs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just more proof that match-up knowledge is SUPER important. Dont know something, you can damn sure expect to pay for it sometime sooner or later in your competitive career.

 

[Megamang]

And, sometimes that has to happen on a national stage. Ouch.


Kirby is still a powerful character to have in your pocket. Lots of people don't know anything about him except "Yo low crouch everything". His tilts are amazing all around, except range they hit all the boxes. Dair can kill confirm into dsmash (don't get hit with dair though... but it can happen with the right read or prediction, makes rolling or dodging vs an aerial kirby pretty risky).


Its interesting that Sonic players have Kirby as a pocket. Is it for fox, Shiek, and ZSS? That would make sense. Or, they really main kirby and don't like the ditto... or most of his MUs and prefer sonic =P

 

[Aphistemi]

Placing G&W low tier even after he has:

- Insane damage input, can deal 40+ damage off one down throw combo, has a kill confirm off down throw (Toot Toot), and can zero to death certain matchups off a down throw.

- The ability to Anti zero to death Bayonetta, apparently the best character in the game currently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uYSjaOkig

- Has that upsmash that even works as a counter. grants him invincibility, able to combo off upsmash. and kills super early without it charged.

- Has crazy good gimping and recovery.

- 9 comeback factor, the fact that you can true combo it with down throw -> jump -> judge at 60 or lower damage, giving him a free chance to take an early stock.

- is light but that doesn't matter if your DI is good, Sheik isn't the heaviest, we all knew that, yet she was crazy good. same for Zero Suit, and Rosalina, they are all pretty light characters. so this isn't a huge problem fundamentally.

- His matchups, he can mess up Ness, Luigi, Villager, Falcon, Pikachu, and he doesn't suck against Zero Suit.

People need to wake up and stop sleeping on him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Fighting Mr. Game and Watch without match up Knowledge is a literal nightmare.

Don't do that to yourself, kids.

You know what I'm talking about Kofu

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm honestly just baffled by the amount of people who think Mario is a better character than Fox. falln even has a tier gap between them, there's no way that can be right. Mario is a good character but there's a reason Ally loses his encounters against japanese players who tend to play a bit more conservative than the rest pretty consistently - he lost to amsa's Greninja, Komorikiri's Sonic, Ranai's Villager and Abadango's Mewtwo, all of which were not considered losing matchups for Mario at any point. I'm even leaving out his two losses against 9B's Ryu and Bayonetta because these are likely losing matchups for Mario anyway.

Edit: And it's not like Japan is super-experienced against Mario. Their best Marios are nowhere near the level of Ally [or Anti for that matter].

 

[C0rvus]

- The ability to Anti zero to death Bayonetta, apparently the best character in the game currently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uYSjaOkig

I don't think that Game and Watch is low tier, but this point is pretty moot. That's not going to be a factor at high level, because, as far as I know, followups out of a second Witch Twist are not guaranteed. Whether that's true or not, good Bayonetta players will not put themselves in a spot where that can happen.

Game and Watch does have a pretty weird MU spread. Top players think he beats Pikachu, I think I saw Ness as well, and he does well versus the plumbers, Ike, Mewtwo, and others.

 

[Deleted member]

Placing G&W low tier even after he has:

- Insane damage input, can deal 40+ damage off one down throw combo, has a kill confirm off down throw (Toot Toot), and can zero to death certain matchups off a down throw.

- The ability to Anti zero to death Bayonetta, apparently the best character in the game currently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uYSjaOkig

- Has that upsmash that even works as a counter. grants him invincibility, able to combo off upsmash. and kills super early without it charged.

- Has crazy good gimping and recovery.

- 9 comeback factor, the fact that you can true combo it with down throw -> jump -> judge at 60 or lower damage, giving him a free chance to take an early stock.

- is light but that doesn't matter if your DI is good, Sheik isn't the heaviest, we all knew that, yet she was crazy good. same for Zero Suit, and Rosalina, they are all pretty light characters. so this isn't a huge problem fundamentally.

- His matchups, he can mess up Ness, Luigi, Villager, Falcon, Pikachu, and he doesn't suck against Zero Suit.

People need to wake up and stop sleeping on him.

I really don't believe people sleep on G&W. I've played the character for a while myself, so I guess I'll give my two cents.

His damage output, combos, recovery, edgeguarding and juggles are all good but his weaknesses are very prevalent no matter how you slice it.

He suffers from poor approach options and a lackluster neutral, and even though he has a good amount of finishers they mostly suffer from poor range (usmash) or are laggy and have large sourspots that don't kill very well (fsmash or dsmash), or are situational such as Oil Panic or 9. The character can't particularly force opponents to approach him at all, and his power is underwhelming for somebody who's supposed to be a glass cannon.

Combined with that, what solo G&W mains are out there putting in work? Regi now plays Corrin alongside G-dubs and SeanS doesn't travel outside NY. Dunno about KOSSismoss. He has counterpick potential for sure, but it doesn't necessarily make him very good.

Kofu or @Furret24 can say more on this subject than I can considering they are dedicated G&W mains... but yeah.

 

[Aphistemi]

"good Bayonetta players will not put themselves in a spot where that can happen."

That's the whole point, people say if you mess up once, you get zero to death'd, but if the bayo messes up one combo that isn't true to the slightest, she ends up dying instead.

The point is that he has that fear when bayo players do this, and not that it will work every single time.

 

[LordShade67]

Falcon gives no damns about Dragon Lunge safety options

Only if Corrin kicks through Falcon's shield. If Corrin kicks away, Falcon apparently can't punish.
http://smashboards.com/threads/corrin-dragon-lunge-kick-shield-safety.431904/

 

[Pancracio17]

"good Bayonetta players will not put themselves in a spot where that can happen."

That's the whole point, people say if you mess up once, you get zero to death'd, but if the bayo messes up one combo that isn't true to the slightest, she ends up dying instead.

The point is that he has that fear when bayo players do this, and not that it will work every single time.

this is poetic, its like you out-bayoing bayo, however, all of bayos confirms are "true" for all intents and purposes, and her side kills dont even put her in risk of this.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fighting Mr. Game and Watch without match up Knowledge is a literal nightmare.

Don't do that to yourself, kids.

You know what I'm talking about Kofu

Very true. He does kind of have a rough time against heavies in spite of his throw combos massacring them since getting in is a risk and he dies very quickly against their range. Bowser beat him even before 1.1.3, Dorf probably goes even due to gimps, Zard probably wins, and I could see Dedede winning as well. Got to play very conservatively against him though, and this goes for everybody. If you get too aggro and aren't prepared for his stuff you will get messed up.

 

[Y2Kay]

Game and Watch does have a pretty weird MU spread. Top players think he beats Pikachu, I think I saw Ness as well, and he does well versus the plumbers, Ike, Mewtwo, and others.

Ehhh......not really.

Well Songn did take a game off of Abadango's Mewtwo but I still think Abadango had decent control in the match.

A lot of GnW mains talk about the MU like "omg we can bucket shadow balls +3 in our favor !" which automatically makes me suspicious. GnW can't edgeguard us well, but their disjointed aerials can be very obnoxious. I think the kill power differential is in Mewtwo's favor, but GnW's down throw combos are pretty legit.

I'd say it's 55:45

EDIT: Added the footage

 

[meleebrawler]

Ehhh......not really.

Well songn did take a game off of abadango's Mewtwo but I still think abadango's Mewtwo had decent control in the match.

A lot of GnW mains talk about the MU like "omg we can bucket shadow balls +3 in our favor !" which automatically makes me suspicious.GnW can't edgeguard us well, but their disjointed aerials can be very obnoxious. I think the kill power differential is in mewtwo's favor, but GnW's down throw combos are pretty legit.

I'd say it's 55:45

Doesn't help that the abadango baby shadow ball style is great for getting punishes off bucket-hungry G&W's.

 

[Megamang]

GaW is weird. I can't see him doing well vs Bayo, since his whole lingering hitbox, be a swordie without a sword thing... just probably doesn't go well vs Divekick and generally stupid hitboxes that beat out disjoints cleanly anyways... plus, if he tries the lingering hitbox too much in neutral, he is really susceptible to being Witch Timed... which rocks his world, since he is so light, I'd imagine most Witch Times either lead to heavy heavy damage or, pretty easily, death.

I also can't see him winning vs Cloud, although his advantage stage is probably decently strong here, he hates longer disjoints, better mobility, and limit kill moves shred him damn early again.

Yet, he loses to shiek and Rosa too, in my experience. ... So was he better off prepatch or not? I can't tell you, I don't know much about the character and I'll readily admit it... But what significant MUs does he win? I don't count reversals on badonettas as making him win the MU, fwiw.

Grab combos, and 9 comebacks, and uair stalling... are pretty good. But I don't think they are tools for a significant bracket run. But, he can pull some BS upsets well over his power level at any moment, and does have some shining MUS and properties but... I'd say people rank him properly in that context. I don't think he is being underestimated, just his good tools aren't quite oppressive enough to be taking home the gold frequently.

 

[Rizen]

Someone needs to post a good tier list.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

I agree with the placement of Link on this. I don't understand how people can put Link below Kirby, based on results or theory. Link is getting notable mid-tier level wins (assuming C, D and maybe B are mid-tier here) from many different players in different regions so it's not like one player is carrying him. (I'll explain if anyone wants)

Does Kirby have results I'm not aware of?

 

[Nobie]

G&W up smash can collide with Bayo Dive Kick and deal damage to neither. UNSTOPPABLE FORCE MEETS IMMOVABLE OBJECT.

I wonder if G&W's excellent deceleration can come in handy against Bayonetta. Being able to pull out of range at the last second and bait out a Witch Time could be effective, provided it works.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I agree with the placement of Link on this. I don't understand how people can put Link below Kirby, based on results or theory. Link is getting notable mid-tier level wins from many different players in different regions so it's not like one player is carrying him. (I'll explain if anyone wants)

Does Kirby have results I'm not aware of?

Kirby has results as a pocket character. People who watch pocket Kirbies beat Sheiks in nationals are not getting an accurate picture of Kirby's solo viability, which is not that great. Link is still stigmatized because he was bad in Brawl and was also kind of bad early on in this game, but several buffs have brought him up into mid tier, especially throw combo buffs. He still is bad once the opponent gets in close to him and doesn't like being juggled or offstage, but is generally sound in neutral and hits pretty hard.

 

[Djmarcus44]

the things that kirby falls to can be manipulated into stalemate scenarios. he struggles intensely vs strong defensive game play but by replicating it himself + by capitalizing on the leads he can generate with his absurd damage combos at early %s he can reverse this back on other players. interestingly this is the philosophy i held while playing brawl as kirby and is why i was able to do well in matchups such as snake and marth where people would say "oh but kirby could never get in"

i love zelda more than most will ever realize but she is just again one of those characters where once you understand how to play against her she can't really do anything against anyone. 100% of her favorable exchanges comes from surprising the opponent or punishing an unforced error.

yes they are no customs + default weight. honestly i don't think default gunner has a single positive MU in the game.

I want to say that matchup chart falln and I made originally came about when for fun I decided to make the matchups between top 15 and I did that all on my own. Then I showed him it and he changed a few, then we decided to include Corrin and Luigi as well, which at the time I had as 16 and 17 on my tier list, so he made the matchups for those two. Now here is my amazing new tier list I made like a week ago.

I think right now Falcon, Megaman and Lucario are underrated and could really take off under a good player. I think people are badly underestimating how strong sheik was, and she could still be #1 but we'll see.
Kirby, Wario and Shulk are overrated.
B- and up can win tournaments with top players in them I think if lucky enough.
C- and up I feel there's actually a legitimate reason to play the character and they're not just totally outclassed or bad.
D and below are totally outclassed and Ganon and Mii Gunner are just miserable characters.

I also want to clear something up when everyone said that falln put luigi too high or that I think of luigi as being too high because concon is in my region, or some other character is in my region and I think highly of them because of it. I literally have played concon only 3 times in tournament ever, and all those times were with prepatch diddy inbetween february-april 2015 last year. I really honestly do not take into account my personal record against most people when im making these lol.

Why do you guys think that Mii Gunner is so bad?

Spoiler: 1111 Mii Gunner's viability analysis

Mii Gunner has the one of best neutral games in Smash 4 if not the best neutral game in Smash 4 even with 1111. This is due to the excellent projectiles Mii Gunner has, and the movement options that Gunner gets when using them. Mii Gunner's fair is amazing in the neutral since it has great range and safety (It is a transcendent priority projectile that travels more than a quarter of the stage and outranges Samus's Zair. It also only has 12 frames of landing lag, and it is safe on perfect shielding). Charge blast is also a good move to charge in the neutral in order to get other characters to approach. Flame pillar is pretty good for stopping approaches, especially if the Gunner player pivots back in order to make the move safer (Gunner can shuffle with flame pillar, but it is hard to do without changing the c-stick to specials). Mii Gunner also has other moves that are good in the neutral (nair, bair, and pivot ftilt or pivot fsmash to retreat). Mii Gunner also has decent mobility due to a good foxtrot, (it has a value of 1.6, the average run speed of a character), good airspeed (tied for 25th), good aerial acceleration, (tied for 18th) and a gundash that is as fast as a falcon kick without any landing lag. In addition, Gunner convert from the neutral to the advantage state pretty easily since fair combos into many of Gunner's moves (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner also has one of the fastest dash to shield aminations in the game, and a frame 6 grab that is pretty good for getting true combos and follow ups (these combos are in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner's neutral is so good that it helped Gunner get an even record against Diddy Kong in tournament play and a 1-0 record against prepatch Sheik.

Mii Gunner also has a good juggling and edgeguarding game (his/her combo game is a work in progress, but there are some good true combos and follow ups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner has great range on up tilt and up air and good range on up smash. Gunner also has great burst mobility with gundashing. Having great priority on charge blast is also good for covering landings. Gunner has a good edgeguarding game by using flame pillar at the ledge. It covers the ledge for over 40 frames, and it covers every ledge option when combined with up smash even if the flame pillar doesn't hit the ledge. Gunner can also use moves such as fsmash and charge blast to cover every ledge option when timed properly. Killing with Gunner isn't very easy, but Gunner has a good variety of kill setups (including a kill confirm with the weak hit of flame pillar to charge blast). In addition, mii gunner has good frame data on some killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135 depending on weight, a frame 8 dtilt that kills around 130 depending on weight, and a frame 9 down smash with good killing power for a smash attack). Mii Gunner also has a good disadvantage state (although our only combo breaker is our frame 3 reflector, and it's weak hitbox gives it situational use for that purpose). Gundashing, flame pillar, stalling with reflector (with 1111 gunner), and lunar launch (the helpless state of Lunar Launch has good mobility, and the projectile is good for allowing Gunner to land. There is also a technique called lunar cancelling that allows Gunner to land without landing lag (It can also allow Gunner to land with the hitbox for lunar launch when timed properly). Although Mii Gunner is somewhat easy to combo and edgeguard in comparison to the rest of the cast, Mii Gunner is good at surviving since Gunner has a good weight along with the option to gundash to the stage to mix up recovery. Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is also helped by being difficult to jab lock.

Although Mii Gunner doesn't have many players to develop his/her metagame or to represent him/her in tournaments, Mii Gunner is definitely not a bad competitive pick relative to the rest of the cast.This character is held back on the tier list by a lack of results (since Miis are banned from For Glory, and most people don't play on tournaments with Miis allowed, it is pretty tough to get good matches as a Mii Fighter main), but Gunner's results show that Gunner isn't the worst character in the game or the second worst character in the game.

falln , why do you think that Mii Gunner loses to every character in the game? Gunner's zoning gives many characters in the game trouble approaching. There are also at least 10 character boards that agree that they lose to Mii Gunner.

This is ROM playing 1111 gunner in Wombo Wednesday. It was a 129 man tournament before Genesis 3 that had great players such as Komorikiri, Ranai, 9B, and Ally. There are other results for 1111 gunner since then, but I don't know how to upload them with my phone. Even though Gunner doesn't have many players, Gunner definitely has more results than Roy, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Brawler in major tournaments (ROM tied for 97th in Genesis 3 while these other characters haven't really been used in any major tournaments lately. I think that a Roy player got 129th at Genesis 3, but that was the only major tournament result for the character).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm curious how many people know Kirby's Utilt, Usmash and Dsmash(for 10 frames) are intangible.

It's so funny because if you don't know THAT, then I consider that not knowing enough about the character because I think knowing that his disjointed attacks aren't beatable......sometimes is something to note, as the former 2 make for decent anti airs.

I had literally no idea that Kirby has any disjoints worth mentioning. (So, not Final Cutter or Hammer Flip.) If anything, I thought it was the opposite, where he was in dire need of disjoints because he sticks his feet out for everything.

 

[falln]

falln , why do you think that Mii Gunner loses to every character in the game? Gunner's zoning gives many characters in the game trouble approaching. There are also at least 10 character boards that agree that they lose to Mii Gunner.

refer to my post i think one page prior where i talk about zoning

 

[Kofu]

Ooh, I missed some Game & Watch discussion. I'm not a great player but I feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on my character. Here's some of my thoughts.

Placing G&W low tier even after he has:

- Insane damage input, can deal 40+ damage off one down throw combo, has a kill confirm off down throw (Toot Toot), and can zero to death certain matchups off a down throw.

- The ability to Anti zero to death Bayonetta, apparently the best character in the game currently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uYSjaOkig

- Has that upsmash that even works as a counter. grants him invincibility, able to combo off upsmash. and kills super early without it charged.

- Has crazy good gimping and recovery.

- 9 comeback factor, the fact that you can true combo it with down throw -> jump -> judge at 60 or lower damage, giving him a free chance to take an early stock.

- is light but that doesn't matter if your DI is good, Sheik isn't the heaviest, we all knew that, yet she was crazy good. same for Zero Suit, and Rosalina, they are all pretty light characters. so this isn't a huge problem fundamentally.

- His matchups, he can mess up Ness, Luigi, Villager, Falcon, Pikachu, and he doesn't suck against Zero Suit.

People need to wake up and stop sleeping on him.

His DThrow combos are good at lower percents (and UThrow works as a backup on characters who can escape DThrow around 0%) but aren't reliable to set up kills. DThrow to UAir is horribly fickle, being dependent on rage, opponent's percent and physics, and can be made hard to connect by just DIing to the side. I'm also highly skeptical of the ability to 0-death anyone off of DThrow. I don't count Judge because it's not reliable (though it doesn't hurt to occasionally throw it out). After low percents (around 40% probably) most characters can just jump out of DThrow to Judge.

While being able to out-jank Bayonetta is nice, I'd rather try to DI/SDI out of her combos most of the time.

USmash's isn't that strong, it only kills sub-100% on light characters and/or with rage. It'll often be stale, too, further weakening it. It is an excellent move, however, as an anti-air and sort of counterattack as you mentioned.

His edgeguarding and gimping games are probably his best asset but aren't strong enough in some MUs.

I don't think that Game and Watch is low tier, but this point is pretty moot. That's not going to be a factor at high level, because, as far as I know, followups out of a second Witch Twist are not guaranteed. Whether that's true or not, good Bayonetta players will not put themselves in a spot where that can happen.

Game and Watch does have a pretty weird MU spread. Top players think he beats Pikachu, I think I saw Ness as well, and he does well versus the plumbers, Ike, Mewtwo, and others.

This is basically accurate.

Very true. He does kind of have a rough time against heavies in spite of his throw combos massacring them since getting in is a risk and he dies very quickly against their range. Bowser beat him even before 1.1.3, Dorf probably goes even due to gimps, Zard probably wins, and I could see Dedede winning as well. Got to play very conservatively against him though, and this goes for everybody. If you get too aggro and aren't prepared for his stuff you will get messed up.

With people who know the MU and are using characters who don't destroy him, the game becomes "neither character can approach the other." He out-buttons most characters but the nature of his moves means that his own approaches are easily shieldgrabbed or similarly punished.

Bowser and DK probably beat him but not by a huge margin; their recoveries being primarily horizontal renders them resistant to his edgeguarding. Charizard is probably in a similar boat. Ganon seems even, and Dedede seems to lose (probably Chef's best MU).

Ehhh......not really.

Well Songn did take a game off of Abadango's Mewtwo but I still think Abadango had decent control in the match.

A lot of GnW mains talk about the MU like "omg we can bucket shadow balls +3 in our favor !" which automatically makes me suspicious. GnW can't edgeguard us well, but their disjointed aerials can be very obnoxious. I think the kill power differential is in Mewtwo's favor, but GnW's down throw combos are pretty legit.

I'd say it's 55:45

EDIT: Added the footage

I think it's a slight advantage for Game & Watch. Kill throws are Game & Watch's bane but his kit is otherwise fairly well suited to match Mewtwo. Songun probably isn't on Abadango's level so the fact he was able to do that well says a lot IMO.

Doesn't help that the abadango baby shadow ball style is great for getting punishes off bucket-hungry G&W's.

Knowing when to use Oil Panic is a critical part in certain MUs since the first two levels are painfully laggy. 72 frame of recovery with 36 frames of vulnerability. Heck, Zelda can use Din's Fire and still have time to go across the stage and hit him for using Oil Panic.

The move is very important in some matchups however.

-

His weight, combined with his low KO potential, is what hurts him the most. His smashes are all slow (frames 15, 17, and 24), UAir doesn't link properly, and no other reliable (i.e. not Judge or Oil Panic) packs much of a punch. DTilt can kill near the ledge but aside from that he has to rely on traps to kill.

He can also be juggled fairly hard and has a noted lack of safe attacks.

 

[HeavyLobster]

With people who know the MU and are using characters who don't destroy him, the game becomes "neither character can approach the other." He out-buttons most characters but the nature of his moves means that his own approaches are easily shieldgrabbed or similarly punished.

That seems about right to me. I've been in many a standoff with G&W. Challenging him tends to backfire hard, but he can't afford to take risks against power characters.

 

[Megamang]

Indeed. But, gunner does have some other stuff that is pretty nice, like a decently strong set of smashes and ... a charge shot? I'm not sure what he gets in 1111, but when I mess with him I really miss the bomb drop down B =\

But, whenever I see a match with a gunner doing decently against someone 'above his power level', I have to think a big part is MU inexperience due to the way we stunted the character with our changing and harsh rulesets.

So, imagine if someone is totally versed in the MU... does he still win? Not trying to force an answer here, I genuinely want to know. It does seem like people slap together a gameplan and it works decently. Fair is a really cool tool and gives him some mobility stuff, but at the same time he can't gap close threateningly since he will be firing the fair backwards. And he isn't even that deadly in zoning.

the question is, what kill confirms does he have? I know he can hit you with some lingering projectiles and confirm into charge shot, but if I avoid all his projectiles and just fight CQC and grab a bunch if he shields those, can he kill me? Or do I keep getting rage until I blast him? Does he have kill throws?


Something that I abused as pikachu, and I'm sure other characters with faster out of dash kill options can abuse it even worse, was the bucket's endlag. If you don't give them a single bucket early on, you can basically just spam safe projectiles against him once he is in kill range. If he decides to take any of them, you run up and end him. You get two tries at this, and in a 2 stock meta... it can definitely work. So what does GaW do? He can't just... try and zone with chef, lol. He is designed to have an anti zoning tool with the bucket, so he is kinda weak to it otherwise (his hitboxes are so committal and his dashgrab isn't exactly amazing) so knowing when to zone and not to is important for a smart approach to the MU. Then, these stalemates turn into your zoning advantage.

Other characters, especially Megaman, can also abuse him with weaker zoning. If he buckets three pellets... no big deal at all, only kinda strong hitbox that he has to gap close to get working and is only really easy to hit from grabs. But you are megaman, and he can't absorb any more so... just fire pellets and zone intelligently and he won't be getting a grab. Punish if you powershield the weak oil panic, otherwise your gameplan is easy.

Idk, all the characters I play with him beat him easily it feels. On the other hand, a quick grab and things can snowball really quickly. His advantage stage is really strong, and that is important in this game. If his dashgrab was much better, he'd be terrifyingly high tier, but... you can avoid the grab with smart play, with most characters.

Heavies are interesting, since they can't avoid the grab as well but they are gonna just outkill him super early... Idk, hes alright and has cool properties but I don't think he is underrated criminally.

 

[Djmarcus44]

refer to my post i think one page prior where i talk about zoning

Are you talking about the post where you mention that zoning has to convert in to other moves? If you are talking about this post, then you bring up a valid point about zoning, but it is a common misconception that Gunner doesn't get any reward from winning the neutral. As I said before, Gunner's fair true combos into most of his/her other moves. In fact, Gunner's fair true combos into charge blast at low percents and sets up for a kill with charge blast at high percents (there are more combos for fair in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner can also get some tech chases from nair, bair, ftilt and flame pillar (The weak hit of flame pillar combos into charge blast and dash attack.Bair also has a chance of tripping an opponent. Nair can set up for a grab, and ftilt can true combo into dash attack on some characters at low to mid percents).

Megamang , although there is not a lot of top level evidence that Mii Gunner beats players that know the matchup, there is enough evidence that suggests that Mii Gunner isn't carried by matchup inexperience. ROM was able to beat sean 2-0 in Genesis 3 in order to get out of the first pool even though he already lost 2-0 to sean in the first round of the first pool. From my personal experience, Gunner can mix up his/her projectile usage in order to throw off an opponent that is powershielding Gunner's projectiles. To answer your second question, besides the projectile confirms that I have already mentioned, Mii Gunner can set up for a kill with jab and grab. Mii Gunner has some of the best jab mixups in the game, and jab into up smash or Down smash are pretty reliable for killing opponents in close range. In addition, Gunner can also jab into up tilt or Down tilt in order to make it easier to get a kill with these quick moves. Gunner can also kill from a grab with up throw or Down throw to up air after a DI read (it isn't the most reliable kill setup, but it has been used successfully in tournament play. The up air also lasts long enough to catch airdodges if they are not used at the right time). It can kill around 100% depending on the weight of an opponent and the amount of hits from up air that the gunner player can connect. If the Gunner player misses, they can land before most opponents and get the kill with up tilt or up smash.

 

[san.]

Indeed. But, gunner does have some other stuff that is pretty nice, like a decently strong set of smashes and ... a charge shot? I'm not sure what he gets in 1111, but when I mess with him I really miss the bomb drop down B =\

But, whenever I see a match with a gunner doing decently against someone 'above his power level', I have to think a big part is MU inexperience due to the way we stunted the character with our changing and harsh rulesets.

So, imagine if someone is totally versed in the MU... does he still win? Not trying to force an answer here, I genuinely want to know. It does seem like people slap together a gameplan and it works decently. Fair is a really cool tool and gives him some mobility stuff, but at the same time he can't gap close threateningly since he will be firing the fair backwards. And he isn't even that deadly in zoning.

the question is, what kill confirms does he have? I know he can hit you with some lingering projectiles and confirm into charge shot, but if I avoid all his projectiles and just fight CQC and grab a bunch if he shields those, can he kill me? Or do I keep getting rage until I blast him? Does he have kill throws?

Fair only has 12 frames of landing lag, so you have to guess between Gunner spacing with bair or crossing up with fair.

Jab1 mixups into dsmash on floaties. It confirms for the smaller version.
dthrow 50/50s into uair on fastfallers with poor DI (DI in).
Uthrow kills at like 150-160 if you get hit by the laser.

Not a confirm, but a neutral getup or roll is a free fsmash.

1111:
Fair->charge shot
sideB sourspot->charge shot (ledge)

Grenade, Missile, and Bomb drop can all combo into uair. Sometimes, you can get grenade to up smash when timed correctly.

Uair itself covers a full air dodge. You can survive fairly well with good DI, however, but it's still decently strong at the moment.

Gunner mostly edgeguards for kills, landing projectiles, bair, nair, or upB offstage. Raw smashes kill at average %s surpsingly, maybe slightly below. It's not like they're non-kill moves.

 

[Megamang]

Hmmm... while that is more stuff than I expected, it seems like you admit with good DI and knowledge of the character, they don't kill particularly well, except just landing a smash. Can he realistically set up situations to land his smashes? I think fsmash might be the best for that, as well as dsmash on rolls, since zoning would set up for both of those situations.

san. Do you believe gunner beats any of the top 20 characters?

 

[Asdioh]

Just more proof that match-up knowledge is SUPER important. Dont know something, you can damn sure expect to pay for it sometime sooner or later in your competitive career.

And stuff like this leads people to erroneously believe Kirby (or any character where matchup inexperience is a big factor in a notable win) is better than he actually is. My new, beautiful avatar expresses how I feel whenever I see overhyped stuff like that.

And, sometimes that has to happen on a national stage. Ouch.


Kirby is still a powerful character to have in your pocket. Lots of people don't know anything about him except "Yo low crouch everything". His tilts are amazing all around, except range they hit all the boxes. Dair can kill confirm into dsmash (don't get hit with dair though... but it can happen with the right read or prediction, makes rolling or dodging vs an aerial kirby pretty risky).

In the bolded, key word is "can." Like, Goggles did Dair->Dsmash to KO Mr R, but usually when you try to Dair->Dsmash Sheik, it gets powershielded, because fastfallers can hold down+shield and powershield it every time, and Dsmash is extremely unsafe on shield. Dair->Dsmash worked in this specific situation because Sheik was just barely at high enough percent to get bounced off the ground, but he didn't tech. The combo is only true on specific characters, sometimes. Floaties tend to float away and can jump out of followups, and fastfallers can shield, which will at least net you a grab, but not a smash.

G&W up smash can collide with Bayo Dive Kick and deal damage to neither. UNSTOPPABLE FORCE MEETS IMMOVABLE OBJECT.

How does this work? I wasn't aware of her divekick having invulnerability or crazy disjoints, the move always seemed relatively trade-able.


Edit: just watched the SGK video, her Kirby is incredible! Very nice movement. The ryu was making severe mistakes though, as demonstrated by dying to final cutter. Too much jumping, WAY too much focus attack, that move is useless outside of airdashing against Kirby. Didn't know which Kirby things to respect or not respect. Not nearly enough dtilting.

 

[san.]

Hmmm... while that is more stuff than I expected, it seems like you admit with good DI and knowledge of the character, they don't kill particularly well, except just landing a smash. Can he realistically set up situations to land his smashes? I think fsmash might be the best for that, as well as dsmash on rolls, since zoning would set up for both of those situations.

san. Do you believe gunner beats any of the top 20 characters?

For 50/50. Small size has the mobility to confirm well from a variety of attacks. 50/50 has the tools to trap into more powerful moves when given the choice of specials, which is decent enough.

I don't use guest size 1111, so I can't say much about MUs. 50/50 3312 can arguably beat a few of them like Pikachu, Falcon, and Ryu. Small size can beat a good amount of them. Then there is the niche anti-zoning set with the reflector and PSI magnet downBs. That may not edge some MUs in Gunner's favor, but a player using that set may edge out a more favorable MU.

 

[Megamang]

Lots of characters boast a good "top tier MU" against Ryu, my main included. This stands in contrast to the idea that he is a solo main character. Of course, in each MU he can reasonably win in a few good exchanges so he doesn't get womped in any MU. Megaman just... doesn't engage him, so I believe its a 60:40 at least... again, you can lose in a bad decision at 50% if you get nair nair dair'd.


So... is he better as a solo main, where a dedicated player learns all his intricacies and kills people before MUs matter (as is the common belief right now), or should he be considered a solid pocket for MUs where he just outkills them on every front, like CF and Little Mac? Its odd, but I'm not sure. I'd bet he comes across annoying MUs frequently, and that people who live in a region that has a recurring Ryu presence know the MU with at least one advantageous or even but easier MU type character.


Is Ryu top tier? It doesn't seem like it with that knowledge, and his results are meh... but his best player is back, and also its hard to watch a gif of him ruining someone with their projectile and think he isnt improving scary fast.


Emblem Lord is there a video of a Ryu with a good ground game anywhere?I tried to learrn, but realized I like eazy neutral tools and kill throws too much :B

 

[san.]

Gunner probably doesn't beat Ryu 6-4, a little less than that. Ryu can still attack through and clank with many of Gunner's projectiles when given the chance. It's gunner's transcendent fair when mixed with the other projectiles that allows for more opportunities. Uair is multihit, and Gunner can obtain damage easily offstage. Gunner is fairly easy to catch off guard and confirm into a kill for Ryu since it only takes a single good powershield, but he takes a lot of damage in the process.

 

[sedrf]

dk will made a mu list

 

[AEMehr]

yes they are no customs + default weight. honestly i don't think default gunner has a single positive MU in the game.

Have you played any Gunner mains that primarily use 1111? I mean I know the Rosa matchup is a badly losing one but still, not a single matchup advantage? Really? As a Gunner main find that hard to believe unless you've never played anyone haha.

 

[ARISTOS]

Lots of characters boast a good "top tier MU" against Ryu, my main included. This stands in contrast to the idea that he is a solo main character. Of course, in each MU he can reasonably win in a few good exchanges so he doesn't get womped in any MU. Megaman just... doesn't engage him, so I believe its a 60:40 at least... again, you can lose in a bad decision at 50% if you get nair nair dair'd.

Nah we're just at that point where everyone is like "Yeah we beat Ryu" except not really at all lol.

Same thing happened with earlier

 

[FullMoon]

dk will made a mu list

That's... Not a very good MU chart for a supposedly mid-high character.