Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

DA's hitboxes are as if he's holding a sword in front of him rather then swinging and extend past the blade even when it's fully extended. This can give the illusion of a body hitbox when he stops. Uair extends up past the blades, Nair extends outwards diagonally (which is usually how you'd use the move besides against shields), and a few others... Can't check on a potato, but you're definitely missing a few.

This?

Spoiler: Pit's dash attack

That isn't a "ginormous [hitbox] that extend past the swords". I'm talking about **** like this.

Spoiler: 4 examples in Smash 4

Spoiler: Bayonetta's Ftilt 3

The low disjoint existed since Melee and as Meshima's videos suggest, even (Smash 4) Ganondorf has it, but slightly less and more for covering below him since Ganondorf does a high roundhouse. Melee Ganondorf didn't, but the disjoint in Smash 4 and maybe Brawl resembles the low hitbox between his knees in Melee.

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Up Smash

This could have been "solved" had they not changed his Side Smash from 64 or made it so he dashed forward further like SFV Laura's Bolt Charge, a dash forward elbow. Ganondorf? Similarly disjointed, but less so. Ganondorf's could have had armor or something... Anyway...

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Side Smash

Really shouldn't exist... Nothing about the animation suggest there should be a hit and it's a crutch for players using an unsafe move and what is more of an air-to-air aerial to cover their landings. If anyone should have a landing hit on their Fair, it should be Ganondorf -- OoT reference -- and Sonic who pops up while spinning which seems like, considering Sonic's quills, would hurt if you touched him and his quills just scratched all over you.

Spoiler: Falco's landing Fair

I'm not talking about the little disjoints that everyone and their mom has in Smash or any other game. Not the disjoints like on Fox's Utilt, Down Smash including the stretched legs, and Bair; Ike's Fair, Jigglypuff's Bair including the stretched leg, the Pits' dash attack, or Ryu's light Utilt and light Ftilt which for light Utilt, as an elbow, you kind of need it to be slightly disjointed to work in Smash or even in Street Fighter without severely gimping a character's range. The other option is having close and far attacks which can complicate some things like a far attack is called despite being too close where you expected and wanted a close attack. I'm talking about stuff like the infamous 64 Kirby Utilt and Brawl Snake Utilt. The actual "ginormous hitboxes that extend past" their legs. The only one that comes close to this for the Pits' is Utilt.

For the Pits' Uair, not that disjointed. If anything, it's just because of their thin blades and the hitboxes being separate circles -- Smash's hitboxes are circular for some reason while in The King of Fighters and Street Fighter, they're rectangular. Even if the hitboxes were replaced by a static, oval one like on Pits other moves or Fox's Ftilt, it would still look big unless they decided to make the hitbox match as close as possible to their blades which at that point, you'd have a really thin and probably useless hitbox for Uair. For Nair, I have no idea what you're talking about if it's about hitboxes. If it's about the animation, then yes, like I said, it the front hit looks like it'll hit far out enough that their hurtboxes will be safe. There's also the Pits not having their bodies face exactly center which shouldn't really matter. If it's about the hitboxes, then I don't see it since the 4 hitboxes during the loop hits seem to be placed in a circular formation which makes sense when you look at the last hit's hitbox which is a giant circle, a common hitbox for multi-hit aerials to end with.

One would expect spinning blades to always beat arms, legs, and other appendages buuuut Nair would be pretty broke if it did. Even if the hitboxes lined up perfectly it'd still lose to Mario Bair because of how Smash works. Even if it were even it'd be a terrible trade because all but the last hit does 0.8%.

Cloud, Corrin, and Palutena's Nairs say hi. None of them are broken as far as I know.

 

[Ulevo]

Looks like this thread's very own @Ghostbone has played the MK vs Peach match-up vs Umeki:

So I'd like to ask Ghost if he has any input on the match-up in terms of how even it is or isn't.

He played this set way too honestly. There were numerous times where he put Peach into death percent only to hit him out of the death percent with a mediocre combo. I don't know if deliberately chose to do this or is not aware of when Peach dies but it was a mistake either way. There were quite a few times where he controlled the pace with forward air well. I would have liked to see him handle Peach's shield pressure better.

 

[FullMoon]

weekend results

Spoiler: Clutch City Clash (August 6th-7th) (South) (241 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango ,
2nd: Samsora ,
3rd: Ally
4th: Trevonte
5th: Mew2King
5th: CaptainZack
7th: DJ Fliphop
7th: ScAtt
9th: Megafox
9th: 6WX
9th: P2P With Gibus
9th: TheReflexWonder
13th: BC
13th: Illusion
13th: LordMix
13th: Brawlman1000

Spoiler: Rebirth VIII (August 6th) (Midwest) (176 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Ryuga
4th: Rayquaza07 ,
5th: MJG
5th: Ned ,
7th: LOE1
7th: DarkShad
9th: Sethsational
9th: Blacktwins
9th: Nero
9th: Chris
13th: Cyco
13th: A-Fin
13th: Smasher1001 ,
13th: Colinies

Spoiler: Don’t You Dair 2 (August 7th) (Northern California) (105 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ito
2nd: Rice ,
3rd: FuTure
4th: Mudomo
5th: Sean
5th: Sinister
7th: Zex
7th: Nabster
9th: Haystack
9th: Jodi Bleek
9th: Kesa
9th: Three
13th: Hitaku
13th: Iron Gonzales
13th: Mr. Peabody
13th: Sks

Spoiler: GUMS 09 (August 7th) (New England) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pugwest
2nd: Craftis
3rd: MattyG ,
4th: Marss
5th: LingLing
5th: Light
7th: Glare
7th: BelaC
9th: Hero
9th: IceArrow
9th: Dark Wizzy
9th: XL-XCVll
13th: Siccarius
13th: DJ Delta
13th: Red Beef Baron
13th: Mr. Freeze

Updated map;

Re-added the Rocky Mountains region due to the attendees list from Revelation in CO taking heavily from CO, UT, and WY, removed Utah ad CO from Southwest, extended Southwest deeper into Texas.

may split the Midwest into 2 regions eventually like I did with Florida/Southeast but for now I think it works

This weekend the number 9 was the magic number for the frogs apparently lol

 

[LancerStaff]

This?

Spoiler: Pit's dash attack

That isn't a "ginormous [hitbox] that extend past the swords". I'm talking about **** like this.

Spoiler: 4 examples in Smash 4

Spoiler: Bayonetta's Ftilt 3

The low disjoint existed since Melee and as Meshima's videos suggest, even (Smash 4) Ganondorf has it, but slightly less and more for covering below him since Ganondorf does a high roundhouse. Melee Ganondorf didn't, but the disjoint in Smash 4 and maybe Brawl resembles the low hitbox between his knees in Melee.

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Up Smash

This could have been "solved" had they not changed his Side Smash from 64 or made it so he dashed forward further like SFV Laura's Bolt Charge, a dash forward elbow. Ganondorf? Similarly disjointed, but less so. Ganondorf's could have had armor or something... Anyway...

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Side Smash

Really shouldn't exist... Nothing about the animation suggest there should be a hit and it's a crutch for players using an unsafe move and what is more of an air-to-air aerial to cover their landings. If anyone should have a landing hit on their Fair, it should be Ganondorf -- OoT reference -- and Sonic who pops up while spinning which seems like, considering Sonic's quills, would hurt if you touched him and his quills just scratched all over you.

Spoiler: Falco's landing Fair

I'm not talking about the little disjoints that everyone and their mom has in Smash or any other game. Not the disjoints like on Fox's Utilt, Down Smash including the stretched legs, and Bair; Ike's Fair, Jigglypuff's Bair including the stretched leg, the Pits' dash attack, or Ryu's light Utilt and light Ftilt which for light Utilt, as an elbow, you kind of need it to be slightly disjointed to work in Smash or even in Street Fighter without severely gimping a character's range. The other option is having close and far attacks which can complicate some things like a far attack is called despite being too close where you expected and wanted a close attack. I'm talking about stuff like the infamous 64 Kirby Utilt and Brawl Snake Utilt. The actual "ginormous hitboxes that extend past" their legs. The only one that comes close to this for the Pits' is Utilt.

For the Pits' Uair, not that disjointed. If anything, it's just because of their thin blades and the hitboxes being separate circles -- Smash's hitboxes are circular for some reason while in The King of Fighters and Street Fighter, they're rectangular. Even if the hitboxes were replaced by a static, oval one like on Pits other moves or Fox's Ftilt, it would still look big unless they decided to make the hitbox match as close as possible to their blades which at that point, you'd have a really thin and probably useless hitbox for Uair. For Nair, I have no idea what you're talking about if it's about hitboxes. If it's about the animation, then yes, like I said, it the front hit looks like it'll hit far out enough that their hurtboxes will be safe. There's also the Pits not having their bodies face exactly center which shouldn't really matter. If it's about the hitboxes, then I don't see it since the 4 hitboxes during the loop hits seem to be placed in a circular formation which makes sense when you look at the last hit's hitbox which is a giant circle, a common hitbox for multi-hit aerials to end with.


Cloud, Corrin, and Palutena's Nairs say hi. None of them are broken as far as I know.

When I'm talking about huge hitboxes I mean in comparison to other attacks in Smash 4. There's no Snake Utilts in this game, though some things like Cloud's Uair are close. DA is a lot more silly then you'd think.

Well no **** Cloud and Corrin's Nairs beat out stuff, they're completely different moves. They involve swinging swords around them, Pit's Nair is spinning beside him. From my experience Palutena's also loses to most everything head on.

 

[Ethan7]

9th: Three

@Das Koopa
Looking at this:
https://www.twitch.tv/competeleague/v/82318830#
It is very likely that Three played at Don't You Dair 2. Otherwise, he would be a secondary.

 

[Ffamran]

When I'm talking about huge hitboxes I mean in comparison to other attacks in Smash 4. There's no Snake Utilts in this game, though some things like Cloud's Uair are close. DA is a lot more silly then you'd think.

Well no **** Cloud and Corrin's Nairs beat out stuff, they're completely different moves. They involve swinging swords around them, Pit's Nair is spinning beside him. From my experience Palutena's also loses to most everything head on.

Still, in comparison to Smash 4, it would still only be Utilt. The Pits' dash attack isn't that disjoint and no, it's not silly. You want silly? Look at Fox and Wario's. Fox rocks the fastest dash speed, 2.4, and fourth-fastest run speed, 2.184, while rocking the fastest dash attack, frame 4, with Wario. For Wario, we're talking about its frame 6-23, 18 active frames, late hit that has a 100% trip rate and can hit below the ledge stage spiking people. How about Mr. G&W and PAC-MAN's dash attacks? Mr. G&W has 19 recovery frames which is fine, but PAC-MAN's? 12. Oh, and Palutena's. Random person: "It's so predictable." Still, it's invincible. The Pits' dash attack is just a fast option. Nothing more; nothing less.

Disjoints generally beat non-disjoints. The Pits having good hitboxes on their Nair, a disjoint, wouldn't break anything. That's my point when I mentioned other circular disjoint and about as fast moves like Cloud, Corrin, and Palutena's Nairs. I'm not saying that any weapon should just automatically beat non-weapon hitboxes. The worse the Pits' Nair could do if they had better hitboxes is they could challenge people better. They would still have the old problem of high landing lag and the last hit not having high growth. It would just have better hitboxes. That's it.

 

[C0rvus]

Pit is above average imo because of his mobility. Fairly good dash speed, and the whole dash attack/grab mixup thing going on. Multiple jumps and some safe aerials help as well. Look at Corrin and how much her mobility holds her back, despite great disjoint and some silly tools. Don't get me wrong, Pit and Corrin are both pretty solid characters. Pit's matchup spread has some dips, such as his Sonic and Sheik matchups. There's always that notion of having lots of -1's or tough matchups taking a toll on you in longer brackets. I think it applies for Pit, even spread or no. Earth as a player has insanely good neutral and clearly has the mind for the character. Er... both characters, actually.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's true but the LGL was around 50 iirc for everyone except MK (which was 35). That can help shave off crucial minutes off the clock if you really wanted to timeout someone.

Being by the ledge wouldn't let you avoid most infinites in Brawl but playing ultra defensive and running away in general would while utilizing platforms. That's not too different from what is being suggested for Peach vs MK in S4.

Either way, considering MK can run away as well, it doesn't solve the matchup for Peach if MK is willing to outlame her.

The point is that you force a situation to where he can't go for a 0-death as easily.

Even at 0 you can still SDI it even if it doesn't work as well until 38%ish percent.

The idea I am presenting is that you can't rely on the ledge in Brawl when a LGL was in place unless a game really went to the clock.

I've seen people try to counter pick D3 in Brawl against Ook thinking it was a free MU, sometimes it actually worked because the match-up was that horrendous.

The difference between Smash 4 and Brawl for me, and even Melee to an extent, is the fact the cast can for the most part reasonably do something most of the time rather than have borderline hopeless match-ups.

Peach has more opportunities and ways to play around what MK does, you don't get to do that for a lot of characters who D3 beat literally just because of his Dthrow. Or even characters like Marth who still had a rather decent grab and won match-ups literally off a single grab.

You don't get to play around stuff like this, you straight up lose unless your opponent massively screws up off their low risk high reward situations.

 

[Y2Kay]

I find it hard to believe Sonic is a problem MU with how well Earth does against Komo. I never found Sheik that bad either. I think and are his toughest match ups.

But it's the nature of the character it seems to not have a consensus on MUs. For example,I hear complaints about and but these two feel even to me.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?

Regarding MK vs Peach from earlier, how can people possibly claim Smash 4 doesn't have matchups as bad as previous Smash games when stuff like that exists? As someone that plays all Smash games competitively outside of 64, that's easily among the worst I've ever seen.

For instance, Brawl had characters that could near infinite chaingrab other characters (DDD vs DK or Marth vs Ness/Lucas) for instance. But in Smash 4 MK can literally zero to death Peach off a dash attack, up tilt, anti-air uair or falling bair (missed tech) down tilt reset.

I'd argue that's just as bad if not worse as MK in this game has multiple ways to set it up, he doesn't rely on fishing for one particular option. Plus his neutral is great versus Peach too thanks to superior mobility and disjoints, 2 things Peach has never been great at dealing with. So it's not like MK at least loses in that aspect.

Case in point, Smash 4 definitely has 7-3 or 8-2 matchups like previous Smash games. There aren't nearly as many solo viable characters as people like to believe.

Sheik from my knowledge is nearly even, I think Sol said something about it. I can see why though, matchups where Sheik doesn't have a disgusting frame data advantage are doable and then an actual disadvantage in mobility is huge. He can also consistently kill her at ~90 or 0 with KO punch which is huge, and Sheiks kill power isn't the most consistent so theres that too

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mario and Pika are actually very even in neutral and mostly do well when it comes to boxing each other.
The issue is trading with Mario.
and outdamaging Mario
and trying to camp Mario
and trying to kill Mario.
.....
Yeah.

 

[EternalFlare]

The point is that you force a situation to where he can't go for a 0-death as easily.

Even at 0 you can still SDI it even if it doesn't work as well until 38%ish percent.

The idea I am presenting is that you can rely on the ledge in Brawl when a LGL was in place unless a game really went to the clock.

I've seen people try to counter pick D3 in Brawl against Ook thinking it was a free MU, sometimes it actually worked because the match-up was that horrendous.

The difference between Smash 4 and Brawl for me, and even Melee to an extent, is the fact the cast can for the most part reasonably do something most of the time rather than have borderline hopeless match-ups.

Peach has more opportunities and ways to play around what MK does, you don't get to do that for a lot of characters who D3 beat literally just because of his Dthrow. Or even characters like Marth who still had a rather decent grab and won match-ups literally off a single grab.

You don't get to play around stuff like this, you straight up lose unless your opponent massively screws up off their low risk high reward situations.

In Brawl I remember seeing people trying to counter DKWill with DDD and failing. He would platform camp abusing his Up B shenanigans and only go for safe pokes. Mekos who was known as the best Lucas also beat plenty of notable Marth players.

Just because a counterpick doesn't always work doesn't mean it isn't a terrible matchup. You can overcome 7-3s by being that much better than your opponent, but eventually especially at top level when players are of similar skill, it won't matter, you'll be forced to switch or lose.

More importantly, you have yet to explain how zero to deaths off a single grab is any worse than a zero to death off a dash attack, up tilt, up air, falling bair, down tilt etc. which are all options MK now has against Peach. Once again are MKs options not BETTER than those Brawl examples? Considering grabbing only works on characters grounded or near grounded, but MK can even start his death combos off anti-airs? If you watch the set, Abadango actually did just that multiple times. He confirmed falling bair resets on an airborne Peach to death combos.

According to you Peach can force a situation where he can't 0-death as easily. How is this different from DK platform camping in Brawl to the same effect? In both cases the characters are giving up stage control to get rid of the possibility of being 0-deathed. At most you could argue Peach will eventually leave death combo percents but that's only if the MK allows her to, there's nothing stopping him from doing a small hit and then timing her out if she doesn't leave the edge.

To suggest Smash 4 doesn't have hopeless matchups at any rate is silly. Are you honestly telling me a top Rosalina could ever lose to a Ganon for instance? What about Puff versus MK? I'm sure if you asked notable low-mid tier players, they'd speak of matchups they consider near unwinnable. Just because Smash 4 is better balanced overall does not mean there are no terrible MUs in the game.

 

[TDK]

To suggest Smash 4 doesn't have hopeless matchups at any rate is absurd. Are you honestly telling me a Rosalina could ever lose to a Ganon for instance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G99pf67zEQ

 

[EternalFlare]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G99pf67zEQ

My post clearly said "Top Rosalina" not any Rosalina lol. Not sure why you edited that out.

Just from a few minutes of watching that, this Rosa was playing unnecessarily aggressive .

Also lost one stock to a fully charged up Smash and another to a Ganoncide after a failed edge guard (daired way too low and pre-emptively instead of on reaction and high). Versus side B you probably don't even need to be offstage, just Fsmash it on reaction. And if he goes low, that's when you go offstage above him and dair him to finish off. You can cover his recovery options methodically there's no reason to guess.

Terrible example overall. If you're getting hit by stuff like that any matchup is going to look even.

 

[Ethan7]

E EternalFlare You edited your message a minute after TDK posted that, so I don't know who to believe.

 

[EternalFlare]

E EternalFlare You edited your message a minute after TDK posted that, so I don't know who to believe.

I added the lines about MK vs Puff and the last sentence.

In a paragraph before that one, I clearly pointed out terrible matchups are winnable when the skill gap is wide enough so obviously I would make the distinction between a top player and any old player.

I mean otherwise by that logic in Brawl, I personally defeated several MKs as Ganon. Does that mean he does fine in the matchup? What happens at low or even average levels of play is irrelevant. Tiers and matchups are about characters at their peak.

 

[LancerStaff]

Still, in comparison to Smash 4, it would still only be Utilt. The Pits' dash attack isn't that disjoint and no, it's not silly. You want silly? Look at Fox and Wario's. Fox rocks the fastest dash speed, 2.4, and fourth-fastest run speed, 2.184, while rocking the fastest dash attack, frame 4, with Wario. For Wario, we're talking about its frame 6-23, 18 active frames, late hit that has a 100% trip rate and can hit below the ledge stage spiking people. How about Mr. G&W and PAC-MAN's dash attacks? Mr. G&W has 19 recovery frames which is fine, but PAC-MAN's? 12. Oh, and Palutena's. Random person: "It's so predictable." Still, it's invincible. The Pits' dash attack is just a fast option. Nothing more; nothing less.

Disjoints generally beat non-disjoints. The Pits having good hitboxes on their Nair, a disjoint, wouldn't break anything. That's my point when I mentioned other circular disjoint and about as fast moves like Cloud, Corrin, and Palutena's Nairs. I'm not saying that any weapon should just automatically beat non-weapon hitboxes. The worse the Pits' Nair could do if they had better hitboxes is they could challenge people better. They would still have the old problem of high landing lag and the last hit not having high growth. It would just have better hitboxes. That's it.

Pit's DA is more then just fast... It's a big disjoint that comes out f7. Heck, Pit lunges forwards quickly while performing it, compared to Fox slowing down and Wario coming to a complete halt right away. Pit's has more range, more raw damage (mostly in comparison to Wario's), and more disjoint. There's only few DAs that I'd rate higher then Pit's, and Wario's I really don't think is one of them.

Pit's Nair comes out faster and surrounds him right away and for the entirety of the attack, Cloud and Corrin's take time and have significant gaps. They're still completely different...

Pit's Nair comes out f4, does about 9%, true combos into other moves that do 10% or more, autocancels in less then a short hop, beats spot dodges, lasts almost as long as an airdodge and almost always beats it because of it, gives total freedom to chose to cross-up on shield, basically unpunishable if you try and roll away, cannot be perfect shielded to any meaningful effect, and ridiculously safe on shield all at the same time. As in, using it normally out of a SH does all of this. Better range and/or disjoint would mean it would then beat the main way to stop the move currently, a quick move like another Nair or a fast Utilt. You could commit to an anti-air but Pit would hit you harder back if you whiffed, so that's not exactly a good option.

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[teddystalin]

I find it hard to believe Sonic is a problem MU with how well Earth does against Komo.

Earth has a lousy record against Komo's Sonic - I have it as 8-2 in Komo's favor atm. When Earth finally won pre-Evo, Komo only used Sonic for one of the 3 sets they played. It's definitely a problem MU and one of the only reasons Earth even has secondaries.

I do think that Pit mains are prone to mental fatigue more than most - the three Pit mains you listed on the other page all place very erratically. Even Earth drowned in pools at both Umebura 23 and Sumabato x TBH5. The fact that Pit doesn't have tools he can really abuse to brute force his way through easier matches when his mains aren't at their best will always hurt him in comparison to the characters in the high tiers.

 

[TDK]

E EternalFlare You edited your message a minute after TDK posted that, so I don't know who to believe.

I originally read it without the "top", found the video, then saw "top" so I edited out to make me feel like I disn't waste my time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I agree Bayo slightly beats Ryu. Her buttons dominate footsies, he cannot juggle trap her, her edgeguarding hurts him bad and his weight and fall speed make him prey to her combos even after her nerfs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In Brawl I remember seeing people trying to counter DKWill with DDD and failing. He would platform camp abusing his Up B shenanigans and only go for safe pokes. Mekos who was known as the best Lucas also beat plenty of notable Marth players.

Just because a counterpick doesn't always work doesn't mean it isn't a terrible matchup. You can overcome 7-3s by being that much better than your opponent, but eventually especially at top level when players are of similar skill, it won't matter, you'll be forced to switch or lose.

More importantly, you have yet to explain how zero to deaths off a single grab is any worse than a zero to death off a dash attack, up tilt, up air, falling bair, down tilt etc. which are all options MK now has against Peach. Once again are MKs options not BETTER than those Brawl examples? Considering grabbing only works on characters grounded or near grounded, but MK can even start his death combos off anti-airs? If you watch the set, Abadango actually did just that multiple times. He confirmed falling bair resets on an airborne Peach to death combos.

According to you Peach can force a situation where he can't 0-death as easily. How is this different from DK platform camping in Brawl to the same effect? In both cases the characters are giving up stage control to get rid of the possibility of being 0-deathed. At most you could argue Peach will eventually leave death combo percents but that's only if the MK allows her to, there's nothing stopping him from doing a small hit and then timing her out if she doesn't leave the edge.

To suggest Smash 4 doesn't have hopeless matchups at any rate is silly. Are you honestly telling me a top Rosalina could ever lose to a Ganon for instance? What about Puff versus MK? I'm sure if you asked notable low-mid tier players, they'd speak of matchups they consider near unwinnable. Just because Smash 4 is better balanced overall does not mean there are no terrible MUs in the game.

I explained this.

A grab is low risk high reward, getting one is death and you can't stop it. You can't shield that and have to play extremely campy just to avoid it. DK will might have platforms camped but he is still stuck in a situation at every percent he has to play like that. Once Peach hits around, 30ish percent, it stops working immediately. You can reasonably not get killed off a dash attack, SDI still exists and Umeki has shown to get out of it with it. D3 grabbing you is death and a five year old can do that infinite. There are other situations in Brawl where that was the case, this doesn't exist tot he same degree in smash 4 because there is a lot more counterplay with better balance with the cast.

Wiffing a lot of MKs moves can backfire. Then MK starts getting rage from taking damage and whoops the set-up stops working sooner.

I'm saying two things on this and two things only.

1. The worst Melee and Brawl has for bad mus are nowhere near as bad as what is in Smash 4. Smash 4 has some pretty bad MUs sometimes, I've never denied it, I've only said the severity is really something I doubt and this is also coming from someone who has also played every smash game to some degree competitive outside of 64.

2. Peach vs MK is not a 3:7, I believe she can play around it and avoid it. The fact it exists makes it a bad MU, but she can do it just fine.

 

[LancerStaff]

Earth has a lousy record against Komo's Sonic - I have it as 8-2 in Komo's favor atm. When Earth finally won pre-Evo, Komo only used Sonic for one of the 3 sets they played. It's definitely a problem MU and one of the only reasons Earth even has secondaries.

I dunno how good or bad it really is... Earth literally flies into Sonic Fsmash over and over. Very avoidable. Does alright until he goes offstage though.

 

[Shaya]

Bayonneta is feasibly still top 5.
A very dominant toolset, very functional mobility despite it's shortfalls.
Only ultimately lost 1 thing from the nerfs, down side-b giving free get away and heavy/potential death combos - she didn't need it. Still was likely one of the single best moves to ever exist in a smash game.
Oh and steeper precision/move choices necessary to still get 30-40% combos, necessitating very high level play to maintain the damage output.

<Cue "BUT SDI" wifi warriors>

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Mac vs Sheik is nearly even. Mac doesn't have as many problems with linear edge guards either. There's just general rules of thumb to follow when fighting Sheik as Mac. For example, don't even bother trying to jump out of fair strings and most tilt strings. You'll risking starting your jump but getting caught by a move anyway and losing it, which is bad because Sheik strings tend to carry you horizontally rather than vertically.
However, a Sheik that knows what they're doing should never get hit by KO Punch. Needles get rid of it. There is no reason for Sheik to not run around and camp with needles or condition Mac to Shield so you can grab him until you can get rid of KO Punch.
The only exceptions should be mix ups with KO punch (b-reverse off a platform for example), or getting hit by dtilt at the perfect timing that the KO meter fills right as you get hit.

 

[EternalFlare]

I agree Bayo slightly beats Ryu. Her buttons dominate footsies, he cannot juggle trap her, her edgeguarding hurts him bad and his weight and fall speed make him prey to her combos even after her nerfs.

I agree but there's one thing I've realized Ryu has that can change his fortune in this matchup. I don't know if it's possible to reliably SDI out of the middle of Bayonetta's ceiling combos. If it is, Ryu could do that than instantly TSRK. And a TSRK that high up (despite being weaker in the air) will likely KO Bayo at 50 without rage.

I originally read it without the "top", found the video, then saw "top" so I edited out to make me feel like I disn't waste my time.

Well you at least got me interested and so I found this video of Kirihara, a top Japanese Rosalina versus a Ganon in pools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv0NPvLKYds

Notice how Ganon couldn't get in or land and got edge guarded hard.

He kept him out with jabs and spaced aerials. He frame trapped him over and over with uairs. And he simply waited for Ganon to air dodge/go below the stage and daired on reaction.

As a result he beat him taking only around 40 percent combined across 2 games. Granted that Ganon was decent but probably not a top Ganon so it's not a completely fair comparison either but it's enough indication of what makes the matchup so terrible for Ganon.

 

[C3CC]

So, when is the new official tier list going to be released?

 

[Shaya]

Postponed indefinitely because you asked.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well you at least got me interested and so I found this video of Kirihara, a top Japanese Rosalina versus a Ganon in pools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv0NPvLKYds

Notice how Ganon couldn't get in or land and got edge guarded hard.

He kept him out with jabs, nothing too fancy. He frame trapped him over and over with uairs. And he simply waited for Ganon to air dodge/go below the stage and daired on reaction.

As a result he beat him taking only around 40 percent combined across 2 games. Granted that Ganon was decent but probably not a top Ganon so it's not a completely fair comparison either but it's enough indication of what makes the matchup so terrible for Ganon.

Pretty sure the skill level is not equal here from what I watched.

edit: I do think it is a bad mu but I wouldn't use that to represent it.

 

[EternalFlare]

Pretty sure the skill level is not equal here from what I watched.

edit: I do think it is a bad mu but I wouldn't use that to represent it.

Nor would I and I did mention the Ganon wasn't on the Rosa's level.

I only posted it as that's the only example I could find involving a top Rosalina.

Anyway my point is Ganon is a good example of a character that despite Smash 4's superior balance, still has some terrible matchups. There's a reason you don't see more solo Ganon mains. He's a popular, hype, disrespect, crowd pleasing character and he'd definitely be seen more if Smash 4 didn't still have polarizing MUs holding him down. That's something that hasn't improved from previous games.

His main bufff in Smash 4 is rage and recovery and those are universal buffs so really shouldn't count, but he still has the same underlying issues that make certain character types dominate him. Also as a side note, I hate how he lost his AC dair from Brawl.

Just because S4 is more balanced overall from Brawl/Melee doesn't mean there aren't matchups you still lose on the character select screen.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Bayo top 5 is very questionable. I don't see what she has that would make her better than the lower top 5 contenders(Fox, Sonic, Mario, etc)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nor would I and I did mention the Ganon wasn't on the Rosa's level.

I only posted it as that's the only example I could find involving a top Rosalina.

Anyway my point is Ganon is a good example of a character that despite Smash 4's superior balance, still has some terrible matchups. There's a reason you don't see more solo Ganon mains. He's a popular, hype, disrespect, crowd pleasing character and he'd definitely be seen more if Smash 4 didn't still have polarizing MUs holding him down. That's something that hasn't improved from previous games.

His main bufff in Smash 4 is rage and recovery and those are universal buffs so really shouldn't count, but he still has the same underlying issues that make certain character types dominate him. Also as a side note, I hate how he lost his AC dair from Brawl.

Just because S4 is more balanced overall from Brawl/Melee doesn't mean there aren't matchups you still lose on the character select screen.

Balance isn't going to be perfect. It never will be but it's a effort to make it as good as you can is what matter more than anything else as a developer.

Your video example I find to be very poor regardless since the skill disparity is very apparent.

 

[L9999]

Pit's DA is more then just fast... It's a big disjoint that comes out f7. Heck, Pit lunges forwards quickly while performing it, compared to Fox slowing down and Wario coming to a complete halt right away. Pit's has more range, more raw damage (mostly in comparison to Wario's), and more disjoint. There's only few DAs that I'd rate higher then Pit's, and Wario's I really don't think is one of them.

Fox rocks the fastest dash speed, 2.4, and fourth-fastest run speed, 2.184, while rocking the fastest dash attack, frame 4, with Wario. For Wario, we're talking about its frame 6-23, 18 active frames, late hit that has a 100% trip rate and can hit below the ledge stage spiking people. How about Mr. G&W and PAC-MAN's dash attacks? Mr. G&W has 19 recovery frames which is fine, but PAC-MAN's? 12.

Fox's also has low enough knockback to do other moves and keep the pressure going at low %s, at high %s is a free fly to the air, and Fox loves having people in the air and destroy airdodges/landings. Wario's 2 frames for free, chip damage is always welcomed. Regardless of condition, it trips 100%. Tripping is ALWAYS advantageous, it gets easy grabs or another dash attack (more damage). GnW's is a clutch killer with rage as well.

 

[EternalFlare]

I explained this.

A grab is low risk high reward, getting one is death and you can't stop it. You can't shield that and have to play extremely campy just to avoid it. DK will might have platforms camped but he is still stuck in a situation at every percent he has to play like that. Once Peach hits around, 30ish percent, it stops working immediately. You can reasonably not get killed off a dash attack, SDI still exists and Umeki has shown to get out of it with it. D3 grabbing you is death and a five year old can do that infinite. There are other situations in Brawl where that was the case, this doesn't exist tot he same degree in smash 4 because there is a lot more counterplay with better balance with the cast.

Wiffing a lot of MKs moves can backfire. Then MK starts getting rage from taking damage and whoops the set-up stops working sooner.

I'm saying two things on this and two things only.

1. The worst Melee and Brawl has for bad mus are nowhere near as bad as what is in Smash 4. Smash 4 has some pretty bad MUs sometimes, I've never denied it, I've only said the severity is really something I doubt and this is also coming from someone who has also played every smash game to some degree competitive outside of 64.

2. Peach vs MK is not a 3:7, I believe she can play around it and avoid it. The fact it exists makes it a bad MU, but she can do it just fine.

Whiffing a grab and a crossup dash attack getting blocked both give you tiny windows to punish in. Grabs aren't really any safer in that sense. It's not like MK's confirm is a super laggy Smash attack or something.

Plus he also has downtilt which is arguably safer than both and falling bair. It can't be stressed enough that with DDD you'd only be in danger of getting zero-deathed while near the ground, with MK he can just catch you out of the air.

It's true that in Peach's case it stops being a threat after low percent but I'd argue even after that MK wins the matchup. He has superior disjoints and mobility, 2 things that Peach especially hates. And he still will kill earlier than Peach overall even without zero-deaths. Keep in mind Abadango isn't an MK main and his neutral was clearly not developed as say MK Leo.

Regarding SDI...forgive me but I'm sceptical it works against it with Peach, GnW or Rosalina. If it really invalidated it, wouldn't top players of these characters be constantly doing it by now? Yet you see these death combos working all the time versus them.

 

[Ffamran]

*plop* Compiled everyone's movement values in Smash 4 (and Brawl). I take no credit in finding any of this data and a monkey could have done what I did which is just copy numbers onto a spreadsheet. So, why? There's plenty of other areas to see movement data after all. The intent was be able to compare and connect numbers we see all the time like air speed, run speed, and walk speed with numbers we don't really see or sometime ignore like air acceleration, dash speed -- remember, dash and run is not the same thing --, and walk acceleration. Also, just to make it kind of easier to see with it all compiled together in a spreadsheet -- this one's subjective... Another thing which some might find pointless: being able to compare with previous games. I just wanted to see what's changed and what's not. Patterns, trends, and whatnot. Set designs too like it's just a Star Fox thing to have a high dash speed even if your run speed is really low or looking at stuff and wondering what the developers were thinking like Brawl Wario's 0.3 air acceleration and Brawl ROB's 0.006 air acceleration. Anyway, hopefully most of it's readable and not confusing -- I should probably make an intro sheet explaining some of the stuff.

Brawl movement value spreadsheet.

Smash 4 movement value spreadsheet.

Spoiler: Some problems

Anyway, there are some problems. First one: DLC characters and Dr. Mario. They will be the ones with the most information missing. Initial walk speed, walk acceleration, etc. Nobody really bothered to check or write them down... Really wished someone did, since I would like to know Roy and Ryu's walk data. Doc's problem is that his most of his movement values are Mario's, but multiplied by... 0.8? It's something like that and I'm not sure exactly what was and wasn't multiplied such as Doc's air deceleration and traction being the same as Mario's. Also, one thing connected to that is air friction has two values: one for horizontal and one for vertical. Most characters just have the same number, but some have slightly different or even drastically different horizontal and vertical air frictions like Sheik. Because of this, I didn't type down any vertical air frictions for any of the DLC characters. Their horizontal air friction came from a famous frame data site everyone probably knows by now.

The next problem is also missing information: jump data. Smash 4 as far as I know -- should probably dig further -- doesn't seem to have data on jumps. For the most part, it kind of doesn't matter and it's a bit complicated since it's not black and white e.g. fast fallers tend to have really high velocities, but they jump like nowhere. There are, however, important information that I wished was available and it's about how momentum transfers from a jump or the maximum horizontal velocities characters have for their jumps.

Lastly, the formatting and terminology was based on Project Smash Attacks with Charizard, Squirtle, Triple D, and Venusaur's data from Smash Attacks because... well, they're weird. I started off compiling Brawl's movement data and there's one issue shared with Smash 4 from the data I used: dash acceleration and dash deceleration. For whatever reason, they're flipped Smash Attacks and the Smash 4 thread. In PSA, they're listed as "Dash & Run Acceleration A" and "Dash & Run Acceleration B". A is described as "The speed at which a character decelerates during Dash, Run, and Turn Run. Combines with 0x018 [Dash & Run Acceleration B]." B, in turn is described as "The speed at which a character accelerates during Dash, Run, and Turn Run. Combines with 0x014 [Dash & Run Acceleration A]." I did format it as so for both Brawl and Smash 4, but it's weird... So, disclaimer: if I screwed up which I might have, then oopsy doops. Everything else should be fine... I hope.

Also, everyone technically has a wall jump; answer what happens when you tech off a wall. Since there isn't any data for that in Smash 4 and nobody cares about Brawl anymore, then it shouldn't affect anything. (I did mark wall jump values for characters who can't normally wall jump with an asterisk)

Spoiler: Sources

Brawl: Information directory: http://smashboards.com/threads/brawl-information-compendium-social.266590/.

Most of Brawl's movement data is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/.

In my ignorance, I didn't know either of those existed, so I pulled data by going through the characters themselves with PSA and SA.

Smash 4: Toomai's post for aerial movement: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...ow-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263.

Toomai's post for ground movement: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.

 

[EternalFlare]

*plop* Compiled everyone's movement values in Smash 4 (and Brawl). I take no credit in finding any of this data and a monkey could have done what I did which is just copy numbers onto a spreadsheet. So, why? There's plenty of other areas to see movement data after all. The intent was be able to compare and connect numbers we see all the time like air speed, run speed, and walk speed with numbers we don't really see or sometime ignore like air acceleration, dash speed -- remember, dash and run is not the same thing --, and walk acceleration. Also, just to make it kind of easier to see with it all compiled together in a spreadsheet -- this one's subjective... Another thing which some might find pointless: being able to compare with previous games. I just wanted to see what's changed and what's not. Patterns, trends, and whatnot. Set designs too like it's just a Star Fox thing to have a high dash speed even if your run speed is really low or looking at stuff and wondering what the developers were thinking like Brawl Wario's 0.3 air acceleration and Brawl ROB's 0.006 air acceleration. Anyway, hopefully most of it's readable and not confusing -- I should probably make an intro sheet explaining some of the stuff.

Brawl movement value spreadsheet.

Smash 4 movement value spreadsheet.

Spoiler: Some problems

Anyway, there are some problems. First one: DLC characters. They will be the ones with the most information missing. Initial walk speed, walk acceleration, etc. Nobody really bothered to check or write them down... Really wished someone did, since I would like to know Roy and Ryu's walk data. Also, one thing connected to that is air friction has two values: one for horizontal and one for vertical. Most characters just have the same number, but some have slightly different or even drastically different horizontal and vertical air frictions like Sheik. Because of this, I didn't type down any vertical air frictions for any of the DLC characters. Their horizontal air friction came from a famous frame data site everyone probably knows by now.

The next problem is also missing information: jump data. Smash 4 as far as I know -- should probably dig further -- doesn't seem to have data on jumps. For the most part, it kind of doesn't matter and it's a bit complicated since it's not black and white e.g. fast fallers tend to have really high velocities, but they jump like nowhere. There are, however, important information that I wished was available and it's about how momentum transfers from a jump or the maximum horizontal velocities characters have for their jumps.

Lastly, the formatting was based on Project Smash Attacks' and Smash Attacks for Charizard, Squirtle, Triple D, and Venusaur because... well, they're weird. I started off compiling Brawl's movement data and there's one issue shared with Smash 4 from the data I used: dash acceleration and dash deceleration. For whatever reason, they're flipped Smash Attacks and the Smash 4 thread. In PSA, they're listed as "Dash & Run Acceleration A" and "Dash & Run Acceleration B". A is described as "The speed at which a character decelerates during Dash, Run, and Turn Run. Combines with 0x018 [Dash & Run Acceleration B]." B, in turn is described as "The speed at which a character accelerates during Dash, Run, and Turn Run. Combines with 0x014 [Dash & Run Acceleration A]." I did format it as so for both Brawl and Smash 4, but it's weird... So, disclaimer: if I screwed up which I might have, then oopsy doops. Everything else should be fine... I hope.

Also, everyone technically has a wall jump; answer what happens when you tech off a wall. Since there isn't any data for that in Smash 4 and nobody cares about Brawl anymore, then it shouldn't affect anything. (I did mark wall jump values for characters who can't normally wall jump with an asterisk)

Spoiler: Sources

Brawl: Information directory: http://smashboards.com/threads/brawl-information-compendium-social.266590/.

Most of Brawl's movement data is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/.

In my ignorance, I didn't know either of those existed, so I pulled data by going through the characters themselves with PSA and SA.

Smash 4: Toomai's post for aerial movement: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...ow-with-raw-real-values.383217/#post-18656263.

Toomai's post for ground movement: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333.

Is air acceleration the rate at which a character reaches max air speed/momentum?

Wario was a secondary for me in Brawl and I tried him out a bit in Smash 4 and he just felt a bit...off. He just felt worse. I knew his had some nerfs: nerfed uair and lack of item wheels, AC SH dair and DACUS but it felt more than that. Maybe this was it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bayonneta is feasibly still top 5.
A very dominant toolset, very functional mobility despite it's shortfalls.
Only ultimately lost 1 thing from the nerfs, down side-b giving free get away and heavy/potential death combos - she didn't need it. Still was likely one of the single best moves to ever exist in a smash game.
Oh and steeper precision/move choices necessary to still get 30-40% combos, necessitating very high level play to maintain the damage output.

<Cue "BUT SDI" wifi warriors>

Heck no, are all ahead of bayo at least. She's most likely on the tail end of the top tiers (we got to broaden this up).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why do people keep using Ally losing to Sam as a reason to debunk 3 stock being better for upsets? Was no one watching how badly Ally was getting outplayed?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Heck no, are all ahead of bayo at least. She's most likely on the tail end of the top tiers (we got to broaden this up).

Sheik is so good she's mentioned twice.

 

[Ffamran]

Is air acceleration the rate at which a character reaches max air speed/momentum?

Wario was a secondary for me in Brawl and I tried him out a bit in Smash 4 and he just felt a bit...off. He just felt worse. I knew his had some nerfs: nerfed uair and lack of item wheels, AC SH dair and DACUS but it felt more than that. Maybe this was it.

Yes, while air deceleration would be the opposite. Brawl Wario had the highest air acceleration in the game with second and sort of third since she wasn't far off being Squirtle, 0.11, and Peach, 0.1. He had three times their air acceleration. Now, add in his air speed which was the third highest tied with Wolf.

The lowest, on the other hand was ROB's 0.006. Second-lowest? Snake at 0.2. Yeah... There's some other stuff that poor ol' ROB had such as a 0 multiplier for his ground to air jump and his horizontal air jump multiplier. If I understood the descriptions right, ROB transferred no horizontal momentum at all while jumping either from the ground or in the air. ROB using Robo Burner was fine for movement, but holy hell. Thankfully, ROB's air acceleration is 0.045 in Smash 4, but I don't know about his jump data.

Some things haven't changed, but the ones that did, I suggest you try looking the big changes. For one, compare Captain Falcon's dash speed in both games and compare Fox's too. For Capt., his dash speed dropped from 2.05 to 1.7 with his old dash speed going to Little Mac. Try to imagine what would happen if Capt. had his 2.05 dash speed with his run speed, the second-highest in the game, dash grab, and whatever Capt. stuff. For Fox, his dash progressively gets faster in each game since Melee; it was 1.9 in Melee, 2.1 in Brawl, and 2.4 in Smash 4. His run speed was similar in all games. Now, the jump from 2.1 dash to 2.4 dash is pretty huge and creates a 0.35 gap between second-fastest dash speed, 2.05, Little Mac's.

Something that most people ignore because "she's just bad" is Zelda's dash speed increase from Brawl. It was 1.25, almost her 1.224 run speed, but in Smash 4, it's 1.6 which is an average run speed. Zelda having a pretty fast dash explains why her dash, her foxtrot as most people call it, is really good. Same thing can be said about Samus's unchanged 1.86 dash speed.

Long story short: little numbers or "minor" movement values do add up. It's more than just air speed, fall speed, sometimes gravity, run speed, and walk speed.