Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ReRaze]

I dunno... Dash attack is safe on cross-up right? It is against the people I fight lol. Jab is really good either way, definitely good enough to deal with Cloud on the ground.

And the whole f6 sweeping Usmash thing will make Cloud think twice about throwing out an aerial, lol.

Dash attack and usmash aren't too safe or even pokes though they are good moves.
But yeah ftilt and dtilt aren't the best ground pokes around. Pit's aerials work great though.

Xaltis has had a Lucina for a while. It was even out at CEO. Definitely just one of their secondaries.

Oh you're right, but its still cool to see Lucina's being used at higher end play. I mean either of them could have just as easily picked Marth. If more people start using her it'll be pretty helpful in determining her actual viability irrelative to Marth.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm just here to say I told you so about Cloud not being a bad match up for Rosa.

To be fair, most people stopped saying this after the Uair nerf.

Pre-nerf Cloud probably beat Rosa pretty clean. His Uair was straight up unfair, it was a F7 move that absolutely RIPPED through any survivability she could want in the air.

The nerfs were a lot more serious than one would be inclined to believe, Uair was probably the biggest rebalance Cloud got =3.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Oh you're right, but its still cool to see Lucina's being used at higher end play. I mean either of them could have just as easily picked Marth. If more people start using her it'll be pretty helpful in determining her actual viability irrelative to Marth.

Tbh, I don't think Marth factors into it at all in this situation. I think Xaltis just prefers Lucina over Marth as a character.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Top 8 of EVO has 8 different characters (not including secondaries)











Top 16 of EVO has 14 different characters (not including secondaries)

2 x
2 x

 

[LancerStaff]

"Projectiles" are a matter of coding, they can be reflected by reflectors. All the projectiles in the game are used in different ways but they're still projectiles. People need to get out of the mindset of 'projectiles=shoot from far away'.

I said "ranged" projectiles... Hadokens are for just outside melee range.

Dash attack and usmash aren't too safe or even pokes though they are good moves.
But yeah ftilt and dtilt aren't the best ground pokes around. Pit's aerials work great though.

Wasn't saying Usmash was safe though, just not something Cloud's going to want to jump at.

 

[Rizen]

has continued to have great results. I'm not sure who is better, her or . I have to admit is not doing as well as his hype suggests. He's top 10 imo but IDK if he's top 5. The metagame seems to favor consistency, safety and strong neutrals over power and reads, even if it is LCS.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If M2K hadn't dropped out we'd likely see a Cloud in top 8. Imagine if ZeRo would've been the one dropping out instead of Cloud, would we consider ZeRo not top 3 material? If Dabuz had dropped out, would Rosalina & Luma not be top 5?

People are free to believe that Cloud isn't top 5, but I think it's a bit too hasty to take the lack of top 16 Clouds, especially considering that M2K dropped out and that top 16 has 14 (!) different characters. Any one player (aside from Sheik or ZSS players) dropping from the top 16 would greatly change the results. If Ally had dropped (due to schedule or missing his flight or something) then Mario wouldn't be represented in top 16.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Ranai takes it 2-1 over Dabuz.

Despite playing ridiculously lame, Ranai played that matchup super well. Spaced out all his slingshots and killed Luma as efficiently and optimally as possible. Despite losing Game 2 in a last second mistake, it was still amazing.

 

[Rizen]

If M2K hadn't dropped out we'd likely see a Cloud in top 8. Imagine if ZeRo would've been the one dropping out instead of Cloud, would we consider ZeRo not top 3 material? If Dabuz had dropped out, would Rosalina & Luma not be top 5?

People are free to believe that Cloud isn't top 5, but I think it's a bit too hasty to take the lack of top 16 Clouds, especially considering that M2K dropped out and that top 16 has 14 (!) different characters. Any one player (aside from Sheik or ZSS players) dropping from the top 16 would greatly change the results. If Ally had dropped (due to schedule or missing his flight or something) then Mario wouldn't be represented in top 16.

I hadn't heard M2K dropped out. That is a good point too and according to this (which is outdated by now :/) Cloud has been getting good results.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkXgH7eXEAA0FKf.jpg:large
Das Koopa what do you think the top characters are based on result data?

 

[Sinister Slush]

has continued to have great results. I'm not sure who is better, her or . I have to admit is not doing as well as his hype suggests. He's top 10 imo but IDK if he's top 5. The metagame seems to favor consistency, safety and strong neutrals over power and reads, even if it is LCS.

I think clouds kit and kill power from limit can keep him in top 5. Sheik and Diddy are top 2 shoe-ins no questions asked, last three spots is basically debating if ZSS Fox Mario Rosalina Ryu or Cloud can take those last 3 spots.

If we did a minor results based thing along with playerbase, ZSS has a smallish pool of players that do well on a national scale (marss Nairo) Rosalina has pretty much only dabuz if you only count top 8 area.
A lot of people pocket cloud as a secondary so it says a lot about him being good enough to start pulling out in the higher brackets, but its hard to tell cause like Yika said before Tweek isn't that strong of a player while M2k keeps dropping out of everything for reasons unknown (at least this time, we all know bout CEO) Still a small playerbase for "mains" but for "pockets" there's quite a bit.
Mario has anti and ally, Ryu is Trela, Fox is Larry (I'd say megafox but need more national exp)

 

[Y2Kay]

Abadango is getting better at the Diddy match up but he still isn't patient enough and doesn't respect the banana enough. Going for ledge cancels while Zero has the banana was a poor choice in my opinion.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Mew2King dropped out because the schedule was poor, especially for him as he's both a top player in Smash 4 and Melee.

 

[Das Koopa]

If Ranai wins, we'll see dat runback...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Metagame ain't looking so counterpick based anymore

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you look at the characters that top Clouds are losing to, the problem is obvious. Cloud's lack of a safe grounded poke hurts his swordsman archetype just as much as his great mobility helps it. Tweek lost to Marth and Pit today, and Rosalina in his set against Falln recently; Komorikiri actually opts to use Lucina against Cloud; Sheik has always been a problem for every Cloud.

All of these characters have one thing in common: good, safe ground moves. In fact, I'd argue that the characters mentioned have some of the best grounded pokes in the game.

Falln said it best (and given his recent victory against Tweek his words are worth considering): "Don't jump against Cloud."

If you are able to play a patient grounded game against him, the one massive hole in his neutral may win you the match.

Something to also note is that Cloud also doesn't have a Marth F-air to reactively wall out low commitment short hop games either. Literally right above and in front of him, Cloud has to guess significantly to beat out approaches from that angle unlike most sword users. Even Ike who has relatively mediocre frame data at least has a fairly ridiculous upward angled F-tilt to hit that zone. In general, Cloud's reactive anti-airs are far more limited than most other sword users outside of pretty hard commitments (or having Limit).

 

[ARGHETH]

Void 2-1 Ranai!
(There's a surprisingly large amount of Usmashes in that set...)

 

[LancerStaff]

If M2K hadn't dropped out we'd likely see a Cloud in top 8. Imagine if ZeRo would've been the one dropping out instead of Cloud, would we consider ZeRo not top 3 material? If Dabuz had dropped out, would Rosalina & Luma not be top 5?

People are free to believe that Cloud isn't top 5, but I think it's a bit too hasty to take the lack of top 16 Clouds, especially considering that M2K dropped out and that top 16 has 14 (!) different characters. Any one player (aside from Sheik or ZSS players) dropping from the top 16 would greatly change the results. If Ally had dropped (due to schedule or missing his flight or something) then Mario wouldn't be represented in top 16.

M2K was going to be up against Earth right away and most likely was going to lose... Who else was he going to go up against?

Speaking of Earth, he managed to get 9th. Which, yes, was better then any other Marth or Cloud did. Guess I hate them still.

Dunno about you guys, but I'm thinking the whole "isn't slanted enough to win" bit was a crock.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So, seeing as Larry Lurr got bodied by Abadango, how's the Fox/Mewtwo MU? On surface level, one would guess that Fox would do well due to great KO power + Mewtwo's giant body and light weight, but Larry was struggling to get in on Mewtwo meaning he couldn't do much. Anyone with more experience in the MU wish to explain a bit further?

It's a difficult matchup for everybody who has to approach Mewtwo. That's the majority of the cast and it does include Fox. Dtilt / Fair are just hard walls for anything that tries to approach Mewtwo on the ground or the air so most characters just naturally lose to Mewtwo. Fox for all we know may be one of these characters though we haven't really seen how this matchup plays out at different levels of play or matchup experience. It'll come down to how much Fox players will be able to capitalize on the few openings Mewtwo gives them.

Regardless, I think it's about time we seriously start to take Mewtwo into consideration for top 5.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regardless, I think it's about time we seriously start to take Mewtwo into consideration for top 5.

Aside from Abadango, what representation does Mewtwo have?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Aside from Abadango, what representation does Mewtwo have?

RichBrown made it into top 32 at Evo for a start. 9B's not doing so well with Mewtwo but he hasn't really been doing well in smash 4 in general.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Speaking of Earth, he managed to get 9th. Which, yes, was better then any other Marth or Cloud did. Guess I hate them still.

You still do.

Pit at best has Pika's situation (one noticeable main)... while being a worse character. Marth meanwhile got what, 2 top 16 or 1 top 16 and 1 top 32. With a newer metagame because he only because relevant a few patches ago.

This is also where I get to point out that once again Corrin was nowhere to be found towards the end of the tournament even while Marth was still there. Yes yes Ike showed up even less I'm aware and yes Robin did better than both of them as well. As far as I know only SM went when it comes to Ike though I suspect I just didn't hear about Ryo. No clue about Corrin outside of ESAM and Regi secondaring him but Corrin still not saving them.

Heck if you count Falln Lucina showed up more at the end of this tournament than Ike or Corrin amusingly enough. At least they can beat up on Roy still?

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Aside from Abadango, what representation does Mewtwo have?

Mew^2?

By the way, Kamemushi vs Zero is going to be some top level play, and if Kame wins it'll mean a lot for Mega Man's meta.

 

[C0rvus]

Many of us already have considered him top 5, and if he isn't, he's right outside that range. But every event shakes up my perception of this game; less so for EVO than CEO, mind you.

Villager is the big question mark for me, honestly. Ranai surprises me and yet he doesn't at the same time. We need more Villagers here in the US I guess. Who the hell even knows. Just seems like being really good and playing a not bad character is enough; maybe not to take it all, but to get close.

Also Lucario is hella good.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

KAMEMUSHI

Discuss Mega Man.

My opinion / Edit: Mega Man is a top 10 character. Is dominating Japan and just defeated Zero's Diddy and Sheik for a 3-0, as well as rolling through Void, Mr R, and Earth.

 

[IceKitsune]

That was a great match! Mega Man mains have to be super hyped right now.

 

[Rizen]

What Mega Man players are getting results atm? /just curious

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I could see Megaman being a high tier now, and being top 15 worthy. Although, I'd like the hype to settle before I form a solid opinion.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The thing with Mewtwo is that there's a lot of strong competition for top 10. I think he probably is top 10, but top 5? Cloud, Mario, Sonic, Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Fox, Diddy Kong are all really, really strong characters. In order to be top 5, Mewtwo has to beat 5 of those.

I think Mega Man might be top 15. ScAtt is really good as well.

 

[Zelder]

Damn it y'all someone doesn't just become top 10 on the back of a single person's performance, do we have to do this with every tournament.





Kame is a master though. Some stray thoughts from the other thread I posted:

I don't know enough about the Diddy vs Mega Man matchup to say anything decisively, but I imagine that a pro Mega Man player's item knowledge is an invaluable asset in that matchup.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aside from Abadango, what representation does Mewtwo have?

What representation does Villager, Fox, Mario, or Ryu have?

Answer: A bunch of people who didn't make top 32 at EVO, unlike the 2nd best Mewtwo, 2nd best Marth, and 2nd best Metaknight.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

What Mega Man players are getting results atm? /just curious

Kamemushi, and to a lesser extent Scatt.

Damn it y'all someone doesn't just become top 10 on the back of a single person's performance, do we have to do this with every tournament.

You're right, the hype was just in me. However, you cannot deny Kame's skill with the character with maximizing his potential. While he may not be top 10 considering the competition in top 10, he's at least a high tier. Maybe where Ness was on the current 4BR list.

 

[-Tornado-]

...Now that EVO's over...
...how 'bout that tier list?
(plz don't kill me)

 

[ARGHETH]

Void, Mr R, and Earth.

Mr. R SD'd twice, though.
And he didn't exactly roll through Void

Also, can Robin be in the top half now please?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Damn it y'all someone doesn't just become top 10 on the back of a single person's performance, do we have to do this with every tournament.

Can we like, staple this to the forehead of everyone who posts in this thread, and change their signatures to this?

Please?

Consistency is what decides tier placements, not one time results. One time results are cool and suggest a possible future trend, does not dictate the current metagame now.

 

[PK Gaming]

This weekend's definitely taught me to not write off any character OR to jump to any conclusions about their perceived.

Mega Man is basically last year's Villager after he came onto the scene. Is he top tier? Still debatable. Is he tournament viable? Absolutely.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

...Now that EVO's over...
...how 'bout that tier list?
(plz don't kill me)

If a year ago someone came up to me and told me that a Mega Man player was going head to head with Shaky, False, VoiD, Mr. R, ZeRo, and win, I'd call you crazy. I feel like I know less about the tier list than ever before.

Mega Man isn't a top tier, but he's certainly better than I ever gave him credit for.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Alrighty then, post-Evo thoughts go.

Before my sophisticated opinion, I'd just like to say Japan showed up to this tournament. Bringing some of the best sets against some of the world's top players.

Ranai played the Rosalina match AMAZINGLY. Sure, it was lame, but did he win in the end? And wasn't Rosalina considered a tough matchup for Villager?

Pit showed up to this too, and we have to give props to Earth for bringing Pit to 9th at Smash's biggest tournament of all time. Super amazing, and I can see Pit rising on the tier list.

Consistency is what decides tier placements, not one time results. One time results are cool and suggest a possible future trend, does not dictate the current metagame now.

Kamemushi already HAD results in Japan, right? Considering Japan and the stacked competition there, there's more than 1 time results. And it's not like Kamemushi's success was a fluke either.

 

[Y2Kay]

Consistency? Kame has been getting high level results for a while now, the trend didn't start today, it's been going for some time.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can we like, staple this to the forehead of everyone who posts in this thread, and change their signatures to this?

Please?

Consistency is what decides tier placements, not one time results. One time results are cool and suggest a possible future trend, does not dictate the current metagame now.

Technicially Mega Man has been having consistant results for a while now. Kamemushi has done great in many other tournaments and destroyed japan as much as Trela has destroyed socal. Scatt and Daiki have been doing stuff too lately.

Now, I DO agree that it is too early to say he is top 10 still, but he actually has pretty good consistancy.

 

[Zelder]

I think Mega Man is definitely tournament viable, but I think he's still going to have a hard run if the Mega Man/Mario matchup is as...unpleasant as Ally was making it look.

Perhaps playing Mega Man with a Rosalina back up?

Obvious disclaimer goes here that we can't 100% determine the matchup from a single datapoint of two top level players going head to head blah blah blah